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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 85
- Thread starter DragonEmperor23
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I've actually never seen that.
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True, but Frieza could still use it when desperate or needing more power, like (as an example I gave) using it against Jiren when bloodlusted. He explains 100% should be used at the start of a fight to finish it quickly due to the strain, after all.
I find it difficult to understand how exactly Frieza could still tap into his bulked-up 100% if he could use its power without going through that entire motion. I don't even think it's really his '100%'. When he was teaching Frost, it seemed almost like the implication was that it was a technique that enhanced their power like Roshi's MAX Power or the Saiyans with Grade 2 and 3 Super Saiyan.
When Frost approaches Frieza, Frieza explains he could achieve Golden with 'training' but then says 'maybe not Golden' and goes 100%, claiming Frost can at least be capable of that much. There is a pretty clear connection here, in the conversation, that 100% is something that is achieved by training like it's a technique.
Overall, the scene with Frieza and Frost has given me the impression that it's an enhancement of their base form, rather than the maximum power of their base form.
I find it difficult to understand how exactly Frieza could still tap into his bulked-up 100% if he could use its power without going through that entire motion. I don't even think it's really his '100%'. When he was teaching Frost, it seemed almost like the implication was that it was a technique that enhanced their power like Roshi's MAX Power or the Saiyans with Grade 2 and 3 Super Saiyan.
When Frost approaches Frieza, Frieza explains he could achieve Golden with 'training' but then says 'maybe not Golden' and goes 100%, claiming Frost can at least be capable of that much. There is a pretty clear connection here, in the conversation, that 100% is something that is achieved by training like it's a technique.
Overall, the scene with Frieza and Frost has given me the impression that it's an enhancement of their base form, rather than the maximum power of their base form.
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No, it doesn't happen in the manga canon but if I recall correctly, Frieza scales to CSSB Goku and is hyped up as turning the tides against Jiren, so Manga Frieza might be relatively stronger than Anime Frieza.
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Depends, Frieza claims that he could defeat Kale and Gohan claims Goku and Vegeta are stronger than him in the Moro arc, and we know Frieza should be stronger than either of them based on Broly scaling.AwkguyDB said:
Regardless, Frieza is firmly GoD-tier in the manga (due to Beerus claiming Vegeta could be a GoD in any other universe and both Goku and Frieza being around his level) but doesn't have much evidence for being firmly GoD-tier in the anime.
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Depends, Frieza claims that he could defeat Kale and Gohan claims Goku and Vegeta are stronger than him in the Moro arc, and we know Frieza should be stronger than either of them based on Broly scaling.
Regardless, Frieza is firmly GoD-tier in the manga (due to Beerus claiming Vegeta could be a GoD in any other universe and both Goku and Frieza being around his level) but doesn't have much evidence for being firmly GoD-tier in the anime.
Freeza isn't GoD Tier in the manga beerus simply said Vegeta could be a candidate not oh he could be a GoD in another universe Goku who was equal to vegeta admitted he wasn't shit to the GoDs Freeza being stronger than either is baseless due to how strong goku and vegeta have gotten since than and currently
Regardless, Frieza is firmly GoD-tier in the manga (due to Beerus claiming Vegeta could be a GoD in any other universe and both Goku and Frieza being around his level) but doesn't have much evidence for being firmly GoD-tier in the anime.
Freeza isn't GoD Tier in the manga beerus simply said Vegeta could be a candidate not oh he could be a GoD in another universe Goku who was equal to vegeta admitted he wasn't shit to the GoDs Freeza being stronger than either is baseless due to how strong goku and vegeta have gotten since than and currently
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Nah, that conversation was about Jiren's full-power otherwise it wouldn't make sense. And the dialogue alludes to it:MonzyMonz said:
Other Kaioshin: The willpower to control that with just his glare, and I sense a far higher power within him.
Whis: It appears he's at the limit of his limit. Meanwhile, Jiren appears to be far from full power.
A "far higher power" can be sensed within him, and that is what makes him stronger.
Full-Power Jiren~GoD level>>>>>FT arc SSB Vegetto>>Merged Zamasu>110 Jiren>>SSBKKx20 Goku
is the case in my opinion. Fusion should be a rather obscene power increase, and Jiren's full-power needs to be the power being referenced in the conversation for any of this to make sense. Otheriwse, everybody after episode 110 is GoD level.
Planck69 said:
How do you come up with this 6.4M figure?
That guy is insane.Zamasu Chan said:
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Apparently they only did that to make it look cool and bring nostalgia back. The attack acts and is different that the one from Toeiverse, and until we get a direct confirmation, we can't confirm if it has the same effects because it simply explodes like an ordinary ki blast.AwkguyDB said:
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Let's assume that Jiren is 4x baseline while heavily suppressed as a safe estimate. UIO1 could somewhat keep up with him. Post-UIO2 SSB Goku is even stronger than that. And we know that the zenkai from the Omens is around 20x since he goes from still being far inferior to Jiren after UIO1 as a SSB KKx20 to somewhat keeping up with his significantly raised power as SSB after UIO2. So a hypothetical Post UIO3 SSB Goku would be 80x baseline at a minimum. Factoring in the boost from the actual UI would have Post-ToP SSB Goku at 1600x baseline at the least.PFM18 said:
Base Gogeta was keeping up with SS Broly better than SSB Goku and Vegeta so he would be about 3200 times baseline at base. Assuming that SSG is a 5X multiplier, we have SSG Gogeta and by extension FP SS Broly (though he is somewhat stronger than this) at:
3200 x 50 x 2 x 4 x 5 = 6,400,000 times baseline.
Yeeeaah, it's pretty bullsh*t scaling but the best I could come up with after sleeping for only 2 hours. Could probably use reworking.
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I had SSB Gogeta at 500,000x baseline at best. What sorcery is this?
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What was the reasoning behind 500,000x?Zamasu Chan said:
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Freeza isn't GoD Tier in the manga beerus simply said Vegeta could be a candidate not oh he could be a GoD in another universe
True, but Beerus explicitly says in other universes, which implies Universe 7 has higher standards/requirements to replace Beerus as a GoD. You could claim it's him praising Vegeta while sparing his own ego, but we pretty clearly see that Beerus is way above the other GoDs in the manga.
Goku who was equal to vegeta admitted he wasn't shit to the GoDs
Too lazy to verify, will assume this is accurate.
Even if you consider this claim, the gap is still much smaller (as far as we are aware) than the anime, considering there is no such thing as a GoD power up like GoD Toppo present in the manga. There is also no claim by Beerus, in the anime, that Vegeta would be a candidate in OTHER universes or similar.
So, while I can't claim Frieza is GoD-tier (I remembered Beerus claiming Vegeta could be a GoD in any other universe, which is what I based that claim on) I can certainly claim Manga Frieza is still relatively much closer to that level than Anime Frieza.
Freeza being stronger than either is baseless due to how strong goku and vegeta have gotten since than and currently
I am comparing Manga Frieza and Anime Frieza and their relative power scaling. Frieza hasn't even appeared once in the Moro arc and there is no anime adaptation of the Moro arc, so I'm comparing them based on the ToP arcs and Broly film.
True, but Beerus explicitly says in other universes, which implies Universe 7 has higher standards/requirements to replace Beerus as a GoD. You could claim it's him praising Vegeta while sparing his own ego, but we pretty clearly see that Beerus is way above the other GoDs in the manga.
Goku who was equal to vegeta admitted he wasn't shit to the GoDs
Too lazy to verify, will assume this is accurate.
Even if you consider this claim, the gap is still much smaller (as far as we are aware) than the anime, considering there is no such thing as a GoD power up like GoD Toppo present in the manga. There is also no claim by Beerus, in the anime, that Vegeta would be a candidate in OTHER universes or similar.
So, while I can't claim Frieza is GoD-tier (I remembered Beerus claiming Vegeta could be a GoD in any other universe, which is what I based that claim on) I can certainly claim Manga Frieza is still relatively much closer to that level than Anime Frieza.
Freeza being stronger than either is baseless due to how strong goku and vegeta have gotten since than and currently
I am comparing Manga Frieza and Anime Frieza and their relative power scaling. Frieza hasn't even appeared once in the Moro arc and there is no anime adaptation of the Moro arc, so I'm comparing them based on the ToP arcs and Broly film.
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What was the reasoning behind 500,000x?
Base Gogeta > SSBE and a heavily lowballed SSB multiplier.
Base Gogeta > SSBE and a heavily lowballed SSB multiplier.
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@Zamasu Chan
I see, seems accurate
I see, seems accurate
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What was the reasoning behind 500,000x?
Base Gogeta > SSBE and a heavily lowballed SSB multiplier.
Base Gogeta isn't above SSBE. That form doesn't exist in the movie and we never saw him shown such a feat on this level.
True low ball for Blue Gogeta is 8,000x actually scaling upward from SSB Goku. Dunno how far above the baseline Blue Goku is.
Base Gogeta > SSBE and a heavily lowballed SSB multiplier.
Base Gogeta isn't above SSBE. That form doesn't exist in the movie and we never saw him shown such a feat on this level.
True low ball for Blue Gogeta is 8,000x actually scaling upward from SSB Goku. Dunno how far above the baseline Blue Goku is.
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Post-UIO2 SSB Goku was doing just as well against both Anilaza and later on FP Base Jiren as SSBE Vegeta (albeit both were barely doing much to the latter) during the ToP. Consider that, the zenkai boosts from the third Omen and true UI and the three month training that would have make him even stronger. Now consider how Ikari Broly was keeping up with SSB Goku and the fact that Gogeta was capable of holding his own against SS Broly who's at least 40 times stronger than before.ZERO7772 said:
Base Gogeta is definitely stronger than ToP SSBE Vegeta, going by scaling (which is insane to be honest).
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I agree with most of it especially Base Gogeta > SSJBE. On top of which this is a Broly who got basically stronger while fighting remember he's fought Frieza for a whole hour. So logically speaking since Base Broly could jump from under Base Vegeta to surpassing SSJ Vegeta in a matter of minutes and from weaker than SSJG Goku to match SSJB blow for blow with Ikari, I think it's safe to say that Broly as a SSJ was getting stronger as he was pounding the mess out of Frieza.Planck69 said:
I guess the only thing I would say is SSJB Goku was still weaker than SSJBE Vegeta in the ToP because he still needed burst of Kaioken in order to keep up.
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Post-ToP SSB Goku is definitely stronger than ToP SSBE Vegeta (if the zenkai boosts I estimated are anything to go by). And I just now realized that my scaling puts FP Base Jiren below FP SS Broly quite significantly. Have you anythng to say about the matter?
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- Thread starter
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is Post ToP SSB KKx20 Goku anywhere near Beerus
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It's implied that Goku is nearing the level of GoDs by the Broly saga.DragonEmperor23 said:
Conversely, Post-UIO2 SSB Goku was slightly pushing Jiren while the latter was showing a hint of his true power. He then fights a few more opponents (most notably Anilaza) and finally starts fighting and getting easily handled by FP Base Jiren. Then there's UIO3 which would give him a 20 times power increase like the previous Omens as I established earlier (feel free to disagree though) and the UI which would give him another boost on top of that. So immediately after the tournament, Goku is hundreds of times stronger than the hint of the full power of a GoD as a SSB.
When you factor in the three months of training afterwards, SSB KKx20 Goku would be far above thousands of times the power needed to slightly push an average GoD and keep up with a newborn one. Goku by this time should be pretty close IMO.
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IMO
FP Base Jiren should be exactly as Whis described in his statement of the mortal who surpasses a GoD. Burning Warrior Jiren is much stronger than his Base and MUI Goku should compare. Broly as a SSJ should scale imo to be higher than FP Base Jiren but lower than BW Jiren until he taps into LSSJ or FPSSJ against Gogeta.
My scaling chain goes like
SSJB Gogeta > LSSJ Broly >= MUI Goku >= BW Jiren > SSJ Broly > FP Jiren = UIO3 Goku >= Top Tier GoDs > SSJBs of the Broly Movie > SSJBE Vegeta = SSJBKKx 20 Post-UIO2 Goku
this is based on what we have been shown in the anime that makes the most sense to me honestly I know it doesn't agree with the tier placement of the site but most of us agree that the tier placement is...........off the mark...for better words.
FP Base Jiren should be exactly as Whis described in his statement of the mortal who surpasses a GoD. Burning Warrior Jiren is much stronger than his Base and MUI Goku should compare. Broly as a SSJ should scale imo to be higher than FP Base Jiren but lower than BW Jiren until he taps into LSSJ or FPSSJ against Gogeta.
My scaling chain goes like
SSJB Gogeta > LSSJ Broly >= MUI Goku >= BW Jiren > SSJ Broly > FP Jiren = UIO3 Goku >= Top Tier GoDs > SSJBs of the Broly Movie > SSJBE Vegeta = SSJBKKx 20 Post-UIO2 Goku
this is based on what we have been shown in the anime that makes the most sense to me honestly I know it doesn't agree with the tier placement of the site but most of us agree that the tier placement is...........off the mark...for better words.
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Honestly, I feel like Goku being stronger than Vegeta should be obvious by now. His regular SSB gets to the point of keeping up with a form that was comparable, if not superior to Goku's previous SSB KKx20 during the same tournament. Then we see him do far better than SSG Vegeta against Broly, who was stronger than when he fought the former, as a Super Saiyan and Broly was also growing stronger to boot.AwkguyDB said:
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