Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

[RedReaper616]

Speaking of Trunks, why isn’t Future Trunks separated into two profiles based on his different eras? (Z and Super respectively).

 

[BlastX]

Although, I'm not sure about Gohan scaling to Post-Zenkai Goku. We don't really have any evidence to support that, do we?

I remember one interview stating that there's a threshold of power level a saiyan must hit before being able to become a Super Saiyan (probably 3 million) so we can scale Future Gohan from that.

 

[BlastX]

Speaking of Trunks, why isn’t Future Trunks separated into two profiles based on his different eras? (Z and Super respectively).

Not everything requires separation, only when a profile gets too bloated for it.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Shouldn't Yajirobe be Planet Level with his Katana since he cut through Vegeta's armor as well as cut off his tail? Yeah, he was surprised by the second one but he explicitly stated he was on-guard due to Krillin being out of sight.

 

[BlastX]

Shouldn't Yajirobe be Planet Level with his Katana since he cut through Vegeta's armor as well as cut off his tail? Yeah, he was surprised by the second one but he explicitly stated he was on-guard due to Krillin being out of sight.

Vegeta was also in his last legs at that point.

 

[RedReaper616]

Not everything requires separation, only when a profile gets too bloated for it.

Sure, but I think Trunks qualifies for that bloating. At least to me, personally.

I remember one interview stating that there's a threshold of power level a saiyan must hit before being able to become a Super Saiyan (probably 3 million) so we can scale Future Gohan from that.

If we’re to use interviews on power thresholds, that means I can totally say Super Bardock’s PL is beneath 24K, since that’s seemingly when the “so strong your Tail stops regrowing” mark is. (This is where Vegeta was in power when his tail didn’t regrow). However, Kid Gohan at 2800 still could regrow his tail. Maybe I can do something with this…

 

[Nullflowerblush]

(probably 3 million)

Toriyama said "one can’t reach the quantity necessary for becoming a Super Saiyan simply by having a gentle spirit, so a certain amount of battle power is indeed necessary", but arguing said amount is that of post-Zenkai Goku requires that Gohan be stronger than Goku was as a Super Saiyan, given he squarely outclasses young Trunks.

 

[BlastX]

Not really, Gohan even said trunks was gonna surpass him in a few months, of course that would have happened hadn't he went to his death.

 

[RedReaper616]

Toriyama said "one can’t reach the quantity necessary for becoming a Super Saiyan simply by having a gentle spirit, so a certain amount of battle power is indeed necessary", but arguing said amount is that of post-Zenkai Goku requires that Gohan be stronger than Goku was as a Super Saiyan, given he squarely outclasses young Trunks.

I meeeeeaaaaaaaannnnnnn….mmmmmm. The gap between Namek Goku and Yardrat Goku was never really substantiated all that well beyond the fact that SSJ Goku >~ SSJ Trunks, who casually nuked M.Frieza, and M.Frieza > (by some large degree) 100% Frieza (and probably SSJ Namek Goku given his confidence). So it’s not impossible that the gap is actually this large. Especially since there’s the 3 years training to account for, too.

 

[BlastX]

Sure, but I think Trunks qualifies for that bloating. At least to me, personally.

If we’re to use interviews on power thresholds, that means I can totally say Super Bardock’s PL is beneath 24K, since that’s seemingly when the “so strong your Tail stops regrowing” mark is. (This is where Vegeta was in power when his tail didn’t regrow). However, Kid Gohan at 2800 still could regrow his tail. Maybe I can do something with this…

I thought 2.8K was only for Angry Masenko.

 

[RedReaper616]

I thought 2.8K was only for Angry Masenko.

I mean, it is, but it’s also stated to be his PL in Dai.7, so I just used it as shorthand.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Especially since there’s the 3 years training to account for, too.

Goku was only on Yardrat for about a year.
The future Z-Fighters didn't have the three years notice to begin preparing for the Androids so we don't know if they grew similarly in strength.

I thought 2.8K was only for Angry Masenko.

Piccolo's Power Level (three thousand-something) exceeded that of the Masenko's, and he stated that, at full power, Gohan surpassed him.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Honestly, you could probably argue, narratively, that 3,000,000 is the required Power Level for Super Saiyan.

Numerous times is Goku described as having transcended the limits of a normal Saiyan by that time, and Vegeta goes from "He may be the Super Saiyan" after he arrives on Namek to "He is the Super Saiyan" after he emerges from the Medical Machine.

but like
might not pass here

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Honestly, you could probably argue, narratively, that 3,000,000 is the required Power Level for Super Saiyan.

Numerous times is Goku described as having transcended the limits of a normal Saiyan by that time, and Vegeta goes from "He may be the Super Saiyan" after he arrives on Namek to "He is the Super Saiyan" after he emerges from the Medical Machine.

but like
might not pass here

Unless the plot demands it like with Bardock and Saiyan Saga Vegeta in the Budokai 1 What If about him winning.

 

[Damage3245]

Numerous times is Goku described as having transcended the limits of a normal Saiyan by that time, and Vegeta goes from "He may be the Super Saiyan" after he arrives on Namek to "He is the Super Saiyan" after he emerges from the Medical Machine.

Being real, Vegeta had no idea what a Super Saiyan really was.

 

[RedReaper616]

Being real, Vegeta had no idea what a Super Saiyan really was.

Sure, but this implication is supported by Ginyu, who considered Goku a “mutant” for being what he estimated was 60K, and beyond Saiyan norms. Given Toriyama said there is a minimum, Vegeta’s references, and Ginyu’s statement, it’s not strange to consider that 3 million is the minimum in question.

 

[BlastX]

Unless the plot demands it like with Bardock and Saiyan Saga Vegeta in the Budokai 1 What If about him winning.

Non-Canon doesn't count.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Perfect Cell vs Bojack [0-0-0]

This is is Perfect Cell (obviously) and Full Power Bojack being used and the fight takes place in the Cell Games Arena. Cell : Bojack : Incon :

vsbattles.com

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I think profiles for the Budokai versions of the characters would be awesome since they have a lot of what if possibilities in them, though I still think SSJ Saiyan Saga Vegeta is hilarious in concept, especially with his trigger for it.

 

[BlastX]

I think profiles for the Budokai versions of the characters would be awesome since they have a lot of what if possibilities in them, though I still think SSJ Saiyan Saga Vegeta is hilarious in concept, especially with his trigger for it.

There's a lot of them that got left on the wayside, like SSJ4 Buu Saga Goku or SSJ3 Cell Game Goku based on the voice lines.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

There's a lot of them that got left on the wayside, like SSJ4 Buu Saga Goku or SSJ3 Cell Game Goku based on the voice lines.

No, you can still unlock SSJ4 in the Buu Saga.

 

[BlastX]

No, you can still unlock SSJ4 in the Buu Saga.

Yeah but I was referring to Goku getting it to fight Kid Buu...and still losing.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Yeah but I was referring to Goku getting it to fight Kid Buu...and still losing.

That just means Kid Buu is insanely cracked in Budokai 3.

 

[BlastX]

That just means Kid Buu is insanely cracked in Budokai 3.

Nah, that's just their what if mode in which the villain wins, Recoome and Ginyu also manage to beat Goku in their what if or Cell manages to defeat SSJ3 Goku during his.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Nah, that's just their what if mode in which the villain wins, Recoome and Ginyu also manage to beat Goku in their what if or Cell manages to defeat SSJ3 Goku during his.

Broly is the only villain with a playable Story Mode, I just looked it up.

 

[BlastX]

Broly is the only villain with a playable Story Mode, I just looked it up.

Yeah, I know that. I was talking about the ones that didn't make the cut

Dragon Ball Z: Budokai 3 - The Cutting Room Floor

tcrf.net

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Yeah, I know that. I was talking about the ones that didn't make the cut

Dragon Ball Z: Budokai 3 - The Cutting Room Floor

tcrf.net

Too bad Broly doesn't get any insane scaling without the Goku Story Mode as the only two endings in Broly's Story Mode are either him losing to an amped Super Saiyan 2 Gohan or beating Gohan and then beating Goku. Meanwhile in Goku's Story Mode Broly runs the fade with SSJ4 Goku.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Also it's interesting to me that Budokai 3's version of Cooler has access to Salza's Ki Sword technique, implying this version of him thought it was useful enough to learn for himself.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

If the Class M upgrade goes through and Tao is downgraded to Hypersonic, what would be his AP rating?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Same as always. Just 3.72 Tons of TNT instead of 4.014605827390057335 Tons of TNT.

 

[RedReaper616]

Also it's interesting to me that Budokai 3's version of Cooler has access to Salza's Ki Sword technique, implying this version of him thought it was useful enough to learn for himself.

Or that he taught it to Salza, given how the Squads seem to be incredibly close to their respective leaders and as such are allowed knowledge of their superiors no one else is granted—Such as their ability to transform.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Or that he taught it to Salza, given how the Squads seem to be incredibly close to their respective leaders and as such are allowed knowledge of their superiors no one else is granted—Such as their ability to transform.

I like the opposite idea better as it implies that Cooler actually values his Squad more than his "canon" version, or at the very least values Salza more than normal.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The French and Spanish versions of The Legendary Manga assert "several illustrations of Goku transformed into a Great Ape" and that "Goku transforms into a Great Ape" during the King Piccolo Saga after drinking the Ultra Divine Water. That 10x multiplier may be a reality after all.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Also it's interesting to me that Budokai 3's version of Cooler has access to Salza's Ki Sword technique, implying this version of him thought it was useful enough to learn for himself.

Cooler seems to be the type to duplicate or learn things he finds useful. He had to train to attain his 5th form (whereas Freeza never really trained until Super), he somehow learned Instant Transmission and in the games he uses techniques like Salza Blade.

Ironically Freeza has become more like Cooler over time in that regard. He copied Krillin's Destructo Disc out of desperation (which shows he viewed it as something useful), learned from Goku that he has to put effort in, copied Goku's fighting style (check Freeza's stance before fighting Base Goku in RoF, it's Goku's martial arts stance) and then learned to practice energy control from Goku's lecture. I wouldn't be shocked if the Supernova were based on Beerus' Sphere of Destruction too.

It seems like their family has a tendency of learning from the example of other fighters. Cooler learned that much earlier (probably because he isn't as strong as Freeza naturally) whereas Freeza took multiple defeats to start taking Goku's lectures to heart.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

 

[Nierre]

"Goku transforms into a Great Ape" during the King Piccolo Saga after drinking the Ultra Divine Water. That 10x multiplier may be a reality after all.

genuinely thought we already accepted that as the case ngl

 

[BlastX]

Cooler seems to be the type to duplicate or learn things he finds useful. He had to train to attain his 5th form (whereas Freeza never really trained until Super), he somehow learned Instant Transmission and in the games he uses techniques like Salza Blade.

Ironically Freeza has become more like Cooler over time in that regard. He copied Krillin's Destructo Disc out of desperation (which shows he viewed it as something useful), learned from Goku that he has to put effort in, copied Goku's fighting style (check Freeza's stance before fighting Base Goku in RoF, it's Goku's martial arts stance) and then learned to practice energy control from Goku's lecture. I wouldn't be shocked if the Supernova were based on Beerus' Sphere of Destruction too.

It seems like their family has a tendency of learning from the example of other fighters. Cooler learned that much earlier (probably because he isn't as strong as Freeza naturally) whereas Freeza took multiple defeats to start taking Goku's lectures to heart.

Freezer really is like Goku and the Saiyans, whenever he sees a worthwhile fighting technique to add to his repertoire from someone else he goes "Hoppity Oppity this technique is now my property"

 

[RedReaper616]

The French and Spanish versions of The Legendary Manga assert "several illustrations of Goku transformed into a Great Ape" and that "Goku transforms into a Great Ape" during the King Piccolo Saga after drinking the Ultra Divine Water. That 10x multiplier may be a reality after all.

So I wasn’t hallucinating on the Oozaru potential unlock thing. Nice.

 

[WyattR612]

By combining all of my initiatives!

Spoiler: The FINAL Meta! The TRUE Agenda!!!

Dragon Ball Era​

• Jackie Chun destroys the Moon via MAX Power Kamehameha. >29.6 Exatons (Moon level)
  • Jackie Chun grew even stronger before the 22nd Budokai.
  • Had they continued fighting, Tien Shinhan would have defeated Jackie Chun.
• Using the Four Witches Technique, Tien doubles his "attack power". >59.2 Exatons
  • Goku can contend with and even defeat the Four Witches Technique.
• At less than half strength, Old King Piccolo tanks Goku's Kamehameha head-on. >236.8 Exatons (Moon level+)
• Via the Ultra Divine Water, Goku's hidden power is drawn out. >592 Exatons (Small Planet level)
• Training under Kami and Mr. Popo, Goku's strength doubled. >~1.184 Zettatons

Frieza Saga​

• First Form Frieza destroyed Planet Vegeta. >14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level)
• After transforming, Frieza's power "more than" doubled. >29.6489822 Quettatons
• With each transformation, (Third Form) Frieza's power is increased further by many-times. >59.2979644 Quettatons
  • Empowered by rage, Gohan damages Third Form Frieza.
• Post-Zenkai Goku battles evenly with Frieza for an extended period of time. >118.595929 Quettatons (Small Star level+)
• The Kaio-ken x20 amplifies Goku's abilities by twenty-fold. >2371.91858 Quettatons (Large Star level)
  • At 50%, Frieza deflects the Kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha with one hand.
    • At 100%, Frieza exchanges blows with Super Saiyan Goku. >4743.83716 Quettatons
• As a Super Saiyan, Goku's strength is multiplied by fifty-times. >5929.79645 Quettatons

Trunks the Story -The Lone Warrior-/Trunks Saga​

• Having trained and fought with the Androids for nearly two decades, Future Gohan is far stronger than his younger self. >59.2979644 Quettatons
• As a Super Saiyan, Gohan's strength is multiplied by fifty-times. >2964.89822 Quettatons
• Future Android 17 battled SSJ Future Gohan with less than half of his full power. >5929.79645 Quettatons
• After mechanizing, Frieza grows further in power again. >9487.67432 Quettatons
  • SSJ Future Trunks defeated Frieza "in seconds".

Cell Saga​

• Imperfect Cell is stronger than SSJ Vegeta. >9487.67432 Quettatons
  • Kamicolo is far stronger than Cell.
  • Kamicolo and Android 17 are equal in strength.
  • After absorbing 600,000+ Earthlings, Cell gained power exceeding that of Kamicolo and Android 17.
• Android 17's Barrier negates Piccolo's Hellzone Grenade. >18975.3486 Quettatons
  • Imperfect Cell withstands Piccolo's Light Grenade head-on and suffers zero damage.
• Via Absorption, Cell adds Android 17's power atop its own. >1.19092146 Foe
  • Even as regular Super Saiyans, Post-RoSaT Vegeta and Trunks surpass Semi-Perfect Cell.
    • In their normal forms, Vegeta and Trunks are fifty-times weaker. >569.260458 Quettatons (Star level+)
  • Super Vegeta and Second Grade SSJ Trunks are far stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell.
• Perfect Cell emerges unscathed after withstanding Super Vegeta's Lucora Gun. >2.38184292 Foe
  • Super Trunks surpasses Cell in strength.
  • The Cell Juniors possess Cell's power.
  • Post-2nd RoSaT SSJ Vegeta and Trunks can fight equally with the Cell Juniors.
    • In their normal forms, Vegeta and Trunks are fifty-times weaker. >1138.52092 Quettatons
  • Post-RoSaT Piccolo can hold off the Cell Juniors.
• Cell undergoes a Super Saiyan Third Grade-like (同様 dōyō; "identical") transformation. >119.092146 Foe (Solar System level)

Cell Games Saga (Pt. 1)​

• At half strength, SSJ Goku far surpasses the Z-Fighters, including the likes of Trunks. >4.76368584 Foe
  • In his normal form, Goku is fifty-times weaker. >2277.04184 Quettatons

World Tournament Saga​

• The East Supreme Kai, Shin, is "dimensions apart" from Piccolo. >2.38184292 Foe
  • Long story short, Gohan is stronger than Shin.
• As a Super Saiyan 2, Gohan's strength is increased by a hundred-fold. >238.184292 Foe

Babidi Saga​

• SSJ Gohan exchanges blows "evenly" with Dabura. >119.092146 Foe

Cell Games Saga (Pt. 2)​

• Despite a self-imposed limitation born of a gentle-heartedness, SSJ Gohan is stronger than Babidi Saga SSJ Gohan. >119.092146 Foe
  • Without even powering up further from the fight with Goku, Cell stomps a passive Gohan.
  • At full power, Cell far surpasses anything demonstrated prior, barring the power of a next-level Super Saiyan.
• Blinded by anger, Cell enters a Third Grade-like form again. >5.9546073 KiloFOE
  • SSJ2 Gohan two-shots Powerweighted Cell.
    • At full power, SSJ Gohan should be half as strong. >2.97730365 KiloFOE
    • In his normal form, Gohan is one-hundred-times weaker. >59.546073 Foe
  • Super Perfect Cell is more powerful than ever.

Majin Buu Saga​

• SSJ3 Goku is four-times as strong as before. >23.8184292 KiloFOE
  • Majin Buu battles equally with SSJ3 Goku.
    • Gotenks and Krillin are confident the former can defeat Majin Buu, and the Daizenshuu 7 asserts that Gotenks "seized the initiative battle", only ever losing in the end, implying he can fight back against Buu; ultimately, though, he was defeated, but survived.
• SSJ Gotenks can circle the globe "a few dozen times". >1.19092146 MegaFOE

Fusion Saga​

• Despite Piccolo believing they needed Super Saiyan based off of their previous performance, after training in the Room of Spirit and Time, Gotenks grew powerful enough that Piccolo believed he could battle Super Buu normally; ultimately, though, he needed Super Saiyan. >1.19092146 MegaFOE
• In SSJ, Gotenks is fifty-times stronger than in his normal form. >59.546073 MegaFOE
• In SSJ3, Gotenks is eight-times stronger than before. >476.368584 MegaFOE
  • Super Buu and SSJ3 Gotenks are equally matched.
  • Buutenks is stronger than Super Buu, but weaker than Ultimate Gohan yet.
  • Ultimate Gohan far surpasses the abilities of Super Saiyan 3. (requires citation)
• By absorbing Gotenks and then Gohan, Buu gains infinite power. >952.737168 MegaFOE
• By virtue of a rival boost, the fusion of Goku and Vegeta (Vegito) is more powerful than the fusion of Goku and Gohan. (requires citation) >476.368584 MegaFOE
• Super Vegito is the greatest known superpower in the universe, eclipsing the likes of Buuhan. >23.8184292 GigaFOE

i think.

By multiplier standards, you sure about Mecha Freeza being x2? Since it's not one of his original forms (which are the ones stated to increase many-times/being double), just stated to grow in power.