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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:


I want to share this video on here. Want to see what y'all's thoughts are on the analysis after watching it
Click to expand...

I agree that stat-wise, Vegeta is probably not strong enough to win. Vegeta was above Third Form Frieza in power by the end, and while we don’t know how strong that is exactly, we know he was probably weaker than Base Goku’s 3 Million, and we know he’s stronger than Second Form Frieza (1 Million). So putting him at 2 million, (which fits the statement Null was using to argue at least 2x increases per form except for the Final form, the numbers he cited {though I don’t know where he got them from}). So does 2.4 Million, since if the Third Form is at least double Second Form, Vegeta would have to be above 2 million, not 2 million exactly. Though saying 2.4 million is kinda arbitrary. It could be just 2.2 Mil, or 2.3 Mil.

For posterity, though, I’ll say for argument he’s as low as possible—2 Million. That puts Vegeta at 100 Million, and slightly weaker than 100% Frieza. However, I don’t think he’d lose. Goku was able to beat Frieza around for a time/hold his own when Frieza was holding himself slightly higher than Goku via his training. Vegeta, while not as skilled as Goku at this point, should be capable of the same. As even when he became a basic SSJ in the future (Android Saga), he was capable of holding onto his mental faculties.

This, combined with Frieza’s dwindling stamina, Vegeta’s slightly lower strength, smarter approach to battle (though it would understandably still be blinded by his ego to an extent), and experience leads me to believe he’d win. It just would be an incredibly difficult battle.
 
RedReaper616 said:
I agree that stat-wise, Vegeta is probably not strong enough to win. Vegeta was above Third Form Frieza in power by the end, and while we don’t know how strong that is exactly, we know he was probably weaker than Base Goku’s 3 Million, and we know he’s stronger than Second Form Frieza (1 Million). So putting him at 2 million, (which fits the statement Null was using to argue at least 2x increases per form except for the Final form, the numbers he cited {though I don’t know where he got them from}). So does 2.4 Million, since if the Third Form is at least double Second Form, Vegeta would have to be above 2 million, not 2 million exactly. Though saying 2.4 million is kinda arbitrary. It could be just 2.2 Mil, or 2.3 Mil.

For posterity, though, I’ll say for argument he’s as low as possible—2 Million. That puts Vegeta at 100 Million, and slightly weaker than 100% Frieza. However, I don’t think he’d lose. Goku was able to beat Frieza around for a time/hold his own when Frieza was holding himself slightly higher than Goku via his training. Vegeta, while not as skilled as Goku at this point, should be capable of the same. As even when he became a basic SSJ in the future (Android Saga), he was capable of holding onto his mental faculties.

This, combined with Frieza’s dwindling stamina, Vegeta’s slightly lower strength, smarter approach to battle (though it would understandably still be blinded by his ego to an extent), and experience leads me to believe he’d win. It just would be an incredibly difficult battle.
Click to expand...
I'm about 50/50 when it comes to Namek Saga Super Saiyan Vegeta vs Namek Saga Frieza, give or take. Because on the one hand, I think your arguments make a lot of sense, but on the other hand? I think Frieza actually has a few solid advantages of his own.

For one, I think Frieza has better durability given that he was getting up pretty consistently even though he was thirty million points below Super Saiyan Goku and even when his stamina was dwindling. So even though his stamina drain is substantial, Frieza's absurd durability and survivability make tanking attacks from a weaker Super Saiyan a little more easy for Frieza. And alongside Frieza's psychic abilities giving him some legway over Vegeta, I think his biggest advantage is that he's known Vegeta for decades so I can see him doing the shit he did during the TOP and psychologically messing with Vegeta to get him to make a fatal mistake, which I think he could do due to how good Frieza is with messing around with people and Vegeta's ego and arrogance.

Again I think it's 50/50, but Frieza defeating a hypothetical Super Saiyan Vegeta has some logic to it.
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:
I'm about 50/50 when it comes to Namek Saga Super Saiyan Vegeta vs Namek Saga Frieza, give or take. Because on the one hand, I think your arguments make a lot of sense, but on the other hand? I think Frieza actually has a few solid advantages of his own.

For one, I think Frieza has better durability given that he was getting up pretty consistently even though he was thirty million points below Super Saiyan Goku and even when his stamina was dwindling. So even though his stamina drain is substantial, Frieza's absurd durability and survivability make tanking attacks from a weaker Super Saiyan a little more easy for Frieza. And alongside Frieza's psychic abilities giving him some legway over Vegeta, I think his biggest advantage is that he's known Vegeta for decades so I can see him doing the shit he did during the TOP and psychologically messing with Vegeta to get him to make a fatal mistake, which I think he could do due to how good Frieza is with messing around with people and Vegeta's ego and arrogance.

Again I think it's 50/50, but Frieza defeating a hypothetical Super Saiyan Vegeta has some logic to it.
Click to expand...
Actually, a thought occurs. Even though Vegeta is weaker, his attacks should be stronger. Since he learned how to manipulate his Ki like an Earthling by this point, which allows one to massively enhance their own powers via burst precision (simulating higher levels of power than you actually have), and Ki attacks that inflate your PL. So its fully possible his attacks are decently stronger than Frieza (not consistently, mind you), to get around the physical advantage Frieza has anyway. Frieza's durability IS pretty absurd, but Vegeta at this point has his own Destructo Disk, so if he fights intelligently he can cut him down. The psychic powers would definitely be an issue, though. However, I don't think it'd be too much of one-Especially because once Frieza hits 100%, he drops it entirely in favor of trying to abuse his physicals.

Also, while he definitely knows Vegeta, I don't know how much it'd work. Vegeta would be, well, high on his own supply. He finally attained the Legend he dreamed of for so long, would be beating Frieza senseless until he goes all out (meaning he'd be avenging his people), planning his rule over the universe (he literally did this when he THOUGHT he was the SSJ), etc. It wasn't until Frieza demonstrated total superiority in a way that Vegeta couldn't potentially overcome did he totally fall into despair and let Frieza get in his head.
 
I don't really put any of Freezer lower forms as anywhere near 2 million since his base final form should be 1.2 Million (1% of his full power) the before you go with that "every transformation is a x2" well I never considered them up til now.

So I put 3rd form in between that and Vegeta slightly above it.

So uh...yeah, Vegeta is around even with 50% Freezer.
 
RedReaper616 said:
I agree that stat-wise, Vegeta is probably not strong enough to win. Vegeta was above Third Form Frieza in power by the end, and while we don’t know how strong that is exactly, we know he was probably weaker than Base Goku’s 3 Million, and we know he’s stronger than Second Form Frieza (1 Million). So putting him at 2 million, (which fits the statement Null was using to argue at least 2x increases per form except for the Final form, the numbers he cited {though I don’t know where he got them from}). So does 2.4 Million, since if the Third Form is at least double Second Form, Vegeta would have to be above 2 million, not 2 million exactly. Though saying 2.4 million is kinda arbitrary. It could be just 2.2 Mil, or 2.3 Mil.

For posterity, though, I’ll say for argument he’s as low as possible—2 Million. That puts Vegeta at 100 Million, and slightly weaker than 100% Frieza. However, I don’t think he’d lose. Goku was able to beat Frieza around for a time/hold his own when Frieza was holding himself slightly higher than Goku via his training. Vegeta, while not as skilled as Goku at this point, should be capable of the same. As even when he became a basic SSJ in the future (Android Saga), he was capable of holding onto his mental faculties.

This, combined with Frieza’s dwindling stamina, Vegeta’s slightly lower strength, smarter approach to battle (though it would understandably still be blinded by his ego to an extent), and experience leads me to believe he’d win. It just would be an incredibly difficult battle.
Click to expand...
Isn't this argument based off of PL's being linear though or am I misunderstanding something?
 
The_Unknown_Warrior1 said:


I want to share this video on here. Want to see what y'all's thoughts are on the analysis after watching it
Click to expand...

Seems pretty reasonable. I lean to Freeza winning because of his durability, survivability and (likely) higher power level. I also think Freeza is better with techniques than Vegeta at this point, given he has his own energy wave, super fast death beams, Death Saucer, Nova Strike, etc.

Powerscaling techniques is murky but keep in mind that Freeza's Nova Strike actually stalemated SS1 Goku's Super Kamehameha and Freeza was able to move out of it to smash into Goku. A significantly weaker Vegeta using Galick Gun is probably going to instead be overpowered and badly injured by it. I also think since Freeza could actually briefly contend with Goku in equal combat that his own hand-to-hand skill is pretty decent.

The big advantage Vegeta has over Freeza in this is ki sensing. If he plays his cards right he can score some critical strikes by abusing blindspots. But there is a real possibility that Freeza just fires a second Death Ball and blows up Namek if he realises Vegeta's plan.

So yeah I think Freeza would probably win.
 
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My question is off topic but are any of you Dark and Darker fans? I was thinking about creating a disscusion thread about it and maybe ask to add it to the wiki later.
 
Using Toei anime scaling is this right?

A power level of 60,000 (562 Quettatons; 1.5 times weaker then Namek Saga base Goku)
*Great Ape: 5,620 Quettatons

A power level is 160,000 is?
 


Okay here's what I got for Ruta's profile for the Z parts of the story

Yardrat Escape Saga/Vegeta Saga: Ruta has a power level of 60,000 (562 Quettatons; 1.5 times weaker then Namek Saga base Goku)
*Great Ape Ruta: 5,620 Quettatons

Ginyu force Saga: Ruta's power level is 160,000 (1498 Quettatons)
Great Ape Ruta: 14,980 Quettatons

Cooler's revenge saga: strong as Cooler's Revenge/Android Invasion Goku (in base and super saiyan)

Legendary Super Saiyan Broly Saga: strong as first broly movie Goku

Granolah Saga: at least ten times weaker then LSSJ Broly's power via down scaling from ssj2 Kakarot who is stronger the Granolah who wished to become stronger then LSSJ Broly

Base Ruta: 2.149924e+83 joules (Multi-Galaxy level)
Super Saiyan Ruta: 1.074962e+85 joules (Multi-Galaxy level)

Buu Saga: Low Multiverse level (Downscales to Kid Buu, can actually harm Kid Buu)
 
The hypertimeline literally only gets disproven if you can prove there is a singular time stream for the whole 13 universes and subdimensions of them, even just having 2 different spacetimes confirmed to exist in all of the multiverse would still make DB timelines Low 1-C because of hierarchical superiority.
 
I just realized that Super Saiyan Goku (End) is based entirely on his Cell Saga self while Base, Super Saiyan 2 & 3 are based entirely on the Buu saga (this is obviously talking about Budokai Tenkaichi 3).

Granted Base (End) just has a generic moveset bar the Super Spirit Bomb because he never fights in that form ever since he got Super Saiyan.
 
AguilaR202 said:
The hypertimeline literally only gets disproven if you can prove there is a singular time stream for the whole 13 universes and subdimensions of them, even just having 2 different spacetimes confirmed to exist in all of the multiverse would still make DB timelines Low 1-C because of hierarchical superiority.
Click to expand...
i mean.....they did all have individual space times without the extra time dimension statement into consideration earlier, but still wasn't Low 1-C, the other time dimension statement of the ROSAT and Time Room was what made the timeline Low 1-C, without those it would still be 2-C, altho i don't think anyone can find a way to disprove the ROSAT for that to matter..........so meh
 
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