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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100
- Thread starter Warren_Valion
- Start date
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Hmm
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Nullflowerblush
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I will hunt down that Chozenshu if it means I can use it in conjunction with the original series's Japanese transcript, and the Super Exciting Guide, and the "temporal world" comments, and the Daizenshuu to prove timeless Other World.
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Is this video correct or is it some other variation of the guidebook?
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The return of CryoTheMayo…
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If yall want the raws, this Wiki has them compiled
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The scan from the Daizenshuu 4 and the page shown in the Chozenshu 1 video I posted can be compared to confirm if they are identical in contents.
Nullflowerblush
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I never noticed until now (because I've never visited this page before), but the Dragon Ball Wiki's entry on "Trunks Surpasses His Father!" (DBZ:192) includes an image named "SuperTrunksVsPerfectCell(manga).jpg" in its summary of the chapter—except, the image is not from the manga, but from Aya Matsui's The Lonely Future Warrior!! Trunks, an "Original Illustrated Story" included in the Film Animation Comic version of Bardock - The Father of Goku; Minoru Maeda provided illustrations.
This only matters to a dork like me.
This only matters to a dork like me.
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No no, that's actually a good point.
Why would time flow at all? If other world is timeless, aka, 0 time passes, then 0 time should pass elsewhere, when viewed from the perspective of other world and its inhabitants. This is contradicted quite literally like 100+ times. Even just Goku dipping in for a minute, and then going home, or chichi saying it's been a few months since he ****** off to train with king kai, in which it's been a few months, or goku zipping across snake away as time passes and nappa beats mfs. Other World and the uni seem to have the exact timeflow even (no im not saying theynhave the same space-time, sheesh), as in, 1 second there, 1 second out. The perception of time seems the same.
And bringing up the ROSAT is actually a counterpoint. While time passes in both dimensions, time passes at a RELATIVE rate. Ie, one year in there, one day out there. To give you an idea why this BAD, arguing heaven has some sort of fucky time but time still passes normally out of it, would be like arguing despite the ROSAT having ****** up time, 1 year in there, 1 year out of it. Which obviously, nuh uh, the ROSAT paints a clear picture on how actual time discrepancy fuckery acts.
And other media actually dont get that accepted if say, bro goes in, ***** around, exits, and time passes..it only works if bro enters, ***** around, exits and NO time passes.
Unless by timeless ya mean something completely different (i dont actually know, i only read like, two posts), but it's exactly that why we dont accept world of void as timeless (48m lol), time STILL passes.
Nullflowerblush
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Bingo!
With ごと ("each") transformation, Frieza's power is 高める ("[raised]; [boosted]; [enhanced]") by 何倍 ("manyfold").Given the Second Form "more than" doubles Frieza's power, "manyfold" should be, at bare minimum, over two-times, which means Frieza jumps from >14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level), to >29.6489822 Quettatons, to >59.2979644 Quettatons, to >118.595929 Quettatons (Small Star level+), and then up to 4743.83716 Quettatons (Large Star level) at 100% Full Power and as Mecha Frieza.
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We do tho. We gave GP space-time hax due to that.
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This seems right yeah, can anyone decipher the kanjis here? It's a bit blurry for me to make out
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I'll include this in that sandbox I made with the new frieza calc in another section alongside Semi-Perfect Cell's multiplier
Nullflowerblush
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Frieza Saga
- Empowered by rage, Gohan briefly succeeds in harming the invincible Third Form Frieza. >59.2979644 Quettatons (Small Star level)
- Post-Zenkai Goku battles evenly with Frieza for an extended period of time. >118.595929 Quettatons (Small Star level+)
- The Kaio-ken amplifies Goku's abilities by ten and twenty-fold, respectively. >1185.95929 Quettatons / 2371.91858 Quettatons (Large Star level)
- As a Super Saiyan, Goku's strength is multiplied by fifty-times. >5929.79645 Quettatons
Trunks the Story -The Lone Warrior-/Trunks Saga
- Having trained and fought with the Androids for nearly two decades, Future Gohan is far stronger than his younger self. >59.2979644 Quettatons
- As a Super Saiyan, Gohan's strength is multiplied by fifty-times. >2964.89822 Quettatons
- Future Android 17 battled SSJ Future Gohan with less than half of his full power. >5929.79645 Quettatons
- After mechanizing, Frieza was confident in being stronger than Goku. >5929.79645 Quettatons
- SSJ Future Trunks defeated Frieza "in seconds".
Cell Saga
- After absorbing 600,000+ Earthlings, Cell gained power exceeding that of Piccolo and Android 17. >5929.79645 Quettatons
- By absorbing Android 17, Cell adds his power atop its own. >11859.5929 Quettatons
- Even as regular Super Saiyans, Post-RoSaT Vegeta and Trunks surpass Semi-Perfect Cell. >11859.5929 Quettatons
- In their normal forms, Vegeta and Trunks are fifty-times weaker. >237.191858 Quettatons (Star level)
- By absorbing Android 18, Cell adds her power atop its own. >17789.3893 Quettatons
- Cell undergoes a Super Saiyan Third Grade-like (同様 dōyō; "identical") transformation. >37.2162956 Foe (Solar System level)
Cell Games Saga (Pt. 1)
- At half strength, SSJ Goku far surpasses the Z-Fighters, including the likes of Trunks. >1.48865182 Foe
- In his normal form, Goku is fifty-times weaker. >711.57557 Quettatons
- The Cell Juniors possess Cell's power. >17789.3893 Quettatons
- Post-2nd RoSaT SSJ Vegeta and Trunks can fight equally with the Cell Juniors.
- In their normal forms, Vegeta and Trunks are fifty-times weaker. >355.787786 Quettatons
- Post-RoSaT Piccolo can hold off the Cell Juniors.
- Post-2nd RoSaT SSJ Vegeta and Trunks can fight equally with the Cell Juniors.
World Tournament Saga
- The East Supreme Kai, Shin, is "dimensions apart" from Piccolo. >17789.3893 Quettatons
- Long story short, Gohan is stronger than Shin.
- As a Super Saiyan 2, Gohan's strength is increased by a hundred-fold. >74.4325912 Foe
Babidi Saga
- SSJ Gohan exchanges blows "evenly" with Dabura. >37.2162956 Foe (Solar System level)
Cell Games Saga (Pt. 2)
- Despite a self-imposed limitation born of a gentle-heartedness (requires citation), SSJ Gohan is stronger than Babidi Saga SSJ Gohan. >37.2162956 Foe
- Without even powering up further from the fight with Goku, Cell stomps a passive Gohan.
- At full power, Cell far surpasses anything demonstrated prior, barring the power of a next-level Super Saiyan.
- Blinded by anger, Cell enters a Third Grade-like form again. >1.86081478 KiloFOE
- SSJ2 Gohan two-shots Powerweighted Cell.
- At full power, SSJ Gohan should be half as strong. >930.40739 Foe
- In his normal form, Gohan is one-hundred-times weaker. >18.6081478 Foe (Large Star level+)
- Super Perfect Cell is more powerful than ever.
- The Solar Kamehameha threatened the destruction of the entire solar system. >1.053 KiloFOE
- SSJ2 Gohan two-shots Powerweighted Cell.
- With half his Ki, the Father-Son Kamehameha annihilated Cell. >2.106 KiloFOE
Majin Buu Saga
- SSJ3 Goku is four-times as strong as before. >7.44325912 KiloFOE
- Majin Buu battles equally with SSJ3 Goku.
- Gotenks and Krillin are confident the former can defeat Majin Buu, and the Daizenshuu 7 asserts that Gotenks "seized the initiative battle", only ever losing in the end, implying he can fight back against Buu; ultimately, though, he was defeated, but survived.
- Majin Buu battles equally with SSJ3 Goku.
- SSJ Gotenks can circle the globe "a few dozen times". >372.162956 KiloFOE
Fusion Saga
- Despite Piccolo believing they needed Super Saiyan based off of their previous performance, after training in the Room of Spirit and Time, Gotenks grew powerful enough that Piccolo believed he could battle Super Buu normally; ultimately, though, he needed Super Saiyan. >372.162956 KiloFOE
- In SSJ, Gotenks is fifty-times stronger than in his normal form. >1.24054319 MegaFOE
- In SSJ3, Gotenks is eight-times stronger than before. >9.92434552 MegaFOE
- Super Buu and SSJ3 Gotenks are equally matched.
- Buutenks is stronger than Super Buu, but weaker than Ultimate Gohan yet.
- Ultimate Gohan far surpasses the abilities of Super Saiyan 3. (requires citation)
- By absorbing Gotenks and then Gohan, Buu gains infinite power. >19.848691 MegaFOE
- By virtue of a rival boost, the fusion of Goku and Vegeta (Vegito) is more powerful than the fusion of Goku and Gohan. (requires citation) >9.92434552 MegaFOE
- Super Vegito is the greatest known superpower in the universe, eclipsing the likes of Buuhan. >496.217276 MegaFOE
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dang beat me to it
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Based on what logic? The World of Living still has a flow of time, one, so that legitimately doesn’t work. It’s also not like time “stops” for Goku. All that occurs is time moves naturally in the Mortal Universe while Goku ***** off. Like, that line of thinking doesn’t apply unless specified by the story. Two, all of the means that Goku watches Otherworld are through the Gods. Crystal Orbs, King Kai’s Clairvoyance, etc. Essentially, magical powers. This means no one actually views them in the normal way to achieve that effect.
Except that isn’t necessary?
Nothing says that Otherworld can’t be:
0 -> 0 -> Goku blips in (still 0) -> Training (still 0) -> Training some more (still 0) -> Leaves (still 0) -> 0
While the Universe is
1 -> 2 -> Goku leaves from MU (exiting time, 3) -> 4 -> 5 -> Goku enters MU (entering Time, 6) -> 7
Except the RoSaT doesn’t operate based on the Earth? It’s just conveniently moving at a speed specifically a year’s worth. Just like how other versions move at their own time rates. Furthermore, again, I have no idea why Time can’t just pass linearly while the people outside time enter and exit time.
What sense does this make? The only one whose time perception should be ****** is the guy in the timeless dimension, not those in normal time around him. Just because time doesn’t pass in another realm doesn’t suddenly make another reality stop having its own flow.
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I finished my part on the AP scaling with Third Form Friezas multiplier and Semi-Perfect Cell
vsbattles.fandom.com
kinda big
Ednaxel2/Sandbox1
vsbattles.fandom.com
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You ever think Cell looked at the Supercomputer, realized that it was literally impossible to ever achieve perfection without cheats, (the Androids are stronger than his base form is without him absorbing countless people, meaning he would never win in a fight or get his opportunity without those bodies), and cursed out Dr. Gero for making his life hard?I finished my part on the AP scaling with Third Form Friezas multiplier and Semi-Perfect Cell
kinda bigEdnaxel2/Sandbox1
Edit: Also, didn’t EML state that Buu Saga Piccolo = MSSJ Goku at Cell Games? Putting them at the 11K Quettaton range?
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I mean he does have Goku's trait of enjoying the surge of ever growing strength (even if he does it by means outside of training, likely a trait he derived from Frieza and Saiyan Saga Vegeta) so I don't think Cell would be bothered by needing to become stronger to overcome his obstacles, Perfection IS just him becoming stronger
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True.
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It was actually Supreme Kai, but that was rejected for...whatever reason
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The fact it's timeless so time shouldnt pass?
And? If bro is in Other World, any time he spends there should be, comparatively, INSTANT, relative to the living world.
If time passes in both, 1:1, it isnt timeless.
It SHOULD if it's timeless.
No thats actual standards and what timeless indicates..if it doesnt follow that, it's just yapping that means nothing.
If Goku goes to other world, and to him 5 minutes has passed. And then he goes to living world, and 5m ALSO passed, whole thing falls apart. Zero minutes shouldve passed, in much the same way time in the rosat and living world isnt uniform and the discrepancy is actually reflected in perceived time, the same would also apply here.
It doesnt, it's the exact opposite, so it aint.
Bro, we are LITERALLY given exact timeframes down to the minute at multiple points. And some cases months. It's uniform. Time passes the same between, if it timeless, no time shouldve passed.
The entire Saiyan Saga, Cell exploding in other world time passing and coming back like 10m later despite that whole time he was in other world, goku ******* off to king kai to train for a few weeks in super, the numerous times Goku blips there, does stuff, comes back and time has passed, the 7y time skip. Like jesus man there's actually like a hundred.
You're straight up wrong, we KNOW that isnt what happens.
See above.
And neither would other world if it has no time?
Like dog, you either have time or you dont, there's no inbetween. It does, we know it does. If youre arguing it's tied to earth, that still means it effectively has time.
Yes, because it has a different time. Time in there, and time out, differ, because time flows differently.
This proves and acknowledges DBZ can and will show time discrepancies.
Other World, explicitly shows otherwise.
For the exact same reason why a year in the ROSAT aint the same outside? They have different time flows, in other worlds case, it'd have NONE.
The fact Goku's and everybody's time perception isnt ******. The very fact DBZ follows these rules hence why the ROSAT aint useless, with a perceived year in there, being only a day out, precisely due to said time difference.
Other World is cooked lad, it literally doesnt work with both common sense, our standards, and even the verse itself.
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None of this explains why it wouldn’t work, mechanically. Also, no? Not basing it on Earth.
Here’s an example: The Prison Realm in JJK. It’s timeless. There’s no time inside it. Thus, while Gojo can still move and think, he doesn’t age at all. However, on the outside, time still flows normally. Thus, when it takes literally forever to let him out, he comes out at that moment in time, forever later/after. Not when he went in.
Because another realm having no time =/= Your own time suddenly not existing.
Or, another example—Jigen and Kawaki’s Timeless Realm. Anything and everything within it is stuck in time, and is also unable to move, unless they choose otherwise. Despite this, when they go in and out, (and when they trap others), time floats naturally on the outside. Thus, when he leaves from his pocket realm, he exits it and re-enters time at that new moment, not the same one he went in.
Because another realm having no time =/= Your own time suddenly not existing.
Again, Time should only be screwed perspective wise from the people going back and forth (so just Goku), not literally “freezing time” by dimension hopping and stopping the flow of time in the Living World.
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Huh. Weird.
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Dude. If 0 time passes in Other World, when Goku and friends go there, abd then come back, no time should have passed. Literally think of it as a infinite rosat..
You did, you said it was tied.
Dog that example is also shit, especially given how Gojo describes it, that place is basically the exact opposite of other world anyway.
Two wrongs aint making a right, especially in a verse that DOES get it right.
Youre right, youre missing the problem though.
Time is shown, EVERYTIME to pass between that at the same rate, additionally, while in said timeless place, any time there, upon returning, SHOULD be completely skewed, if not at all. Given the Rosat establishes DBZ works on the latter....yeah nuh uh.
Oh so other world everyone is frozen?
No dude, youre not only listing off dubious "timeless" places, but youre listing off OPPOSITE examples of what you should be.
Time passes 1:1 in other world as it does the living world. To Goku, five minutes there, is five minutes outside, and vice versa.
It demonstrably has a stable time flow.
Additionally,dbz establishes that dimensions with time discrepancy, has the dimensions flow relative to the time difference. This is the model DBZ works with.
Not even that happens dude.
Timeless Other World is yap, it doesnt follow our standards, or even dbzs own standards, or even common sense.
And using other verses, as if i dont have problems with that too, aint gonna cut it.
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I agree with Chariot's take here. Otherworld being truly timeless doesn't work. It's probably more about Otherworld being a realm of the dead and gods, ageless beings.
Nullflowerblush
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Both Goku and the Super Exciting Guide clarify time does not exist in Other World, but eh. Standards and whathaveyou.
Anyhow, I found a digital scanning of the Chōzenshū 3: Animation Guide Part 2 on archive.org.
Anyhow, I found a digital scanning of the Chōzenshū 3: Animation Guide Part 2 on archive.org.
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Being timeless and having time that doesn't flow are different things, if realm has time and time doesn't flow (T=0) then it's not timeless , time just doesn't flow. There is no one at of portraying a timeless void in relation to outside realms
If a being comes from temporal world, he doesn't stop having his ability to perceive time, if you take an hour glass into that realm for example, you can still count time.
Not only do the people in the afterlife have access to the temporal living world, the souls who populate there all come from the living world, that they have method of counting time just like the living world doesn't..mean anything, certainly doesn't debunk it
However my only real interest in that statement i the further proof that the living world is its own space-time tbh
If a being comes from temporal world, he doesn't stop having his ability to perceive time, if you take an hour glass into that realm for example, you can still count time.
Not only do the people in the afterlife have access to the temporal living world, the souls who populate there all come from the living world, that they have method of counting time just like the living world doesn't..mean anything, certainly doesn't debunk it
However my only real interest in that statement i the further proof that the living world is its own space-time tbh
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Yeah, but like, it's demonstrably false.
If a medium yaps, and in function it doesn't adhere to its own logic. Well shit sucks but we'd take how it actually behaves over what it's said to be.
Hell aint even dbz, so many mediums say "time doesnt exist here", yet in function it quite literally does. It's just empty cool anime talk,
Functionally identical, in fact it's even worse.
If it doesn't have time, not only is it not an alternate dimension (lacks time, every statement calling it as such is now wrong). But what do you think "doesnt have time" entails? It very evidently has time. Not only is it literally 1:1 with the living world, but the fact time progresses there, cause and effect isn't locked, stuff can be accounted for, and so much, means nah, that shit got time.
If it didn't have time, literally none of that would be possible.
Anime "timeless realms", and actually being timeless are not the same.
No because it's timeless, time not only doesn't flow, it doesn't EXIST. Anything that is a byproduct of time ceases to occur. Like, hell, there's good reasn why moving in timeless places used to be an infinite speed feat, and why that stopped being a thing was not because it ain't infinite, but 99% of "timeless" places demonstrably still have time, like, literally this.
And as for that first bit, does Goku's perception of time stay the same while in the ROSAT? Of course not, his perception of time is linked to the place he's in, just because he's from a place with time, doesn't mean he magically makes places that don't have some.
It does? It's why we give Grand Priest time hax, apparently, for making time pass in a timeless void.
I don't think you understand what actually lacking time entails, if you want to say a place literally lacks time, that place has to actively show any facet of time doesn't exist.
The living world would be, and other world would be 3-A at max and not count towards the 2-C number because a deciding factor in what makes shit low 2-C, doesn't exist apparently
Hasty12345
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no time implies spacetimeThe living world would be, and other world would be 3-A at max and not count towards the 2-C number because a deciding factor in what makes shit low 2-C, doesn't exist apparently
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Nooooo? Again, think logically. Going to a Timeless Realm doesn’t remove the time in a different realm.
No, I said: “Except the RoSaT doesn’t operate based on the Earth? It’s just conveniently moving at a speed specifically a year’s worth. Just like how other versions move at their own time rates. Furthermore, again, I have no idea why Time can’t just pass linearly while the people outside time enter and exit time.”
It’s not moving at “relative time.” It isn’t connected to Earth’s at all. It just literally happens to move at a specific speed. That’s why other RoSaT have their own, different Time Dilations, such as the version Goku and Merus used, which only gives 3 Earth Days worth per one Earth Day. Similarly, Otherworld isn’t locked to Earth’s timeframe. You should especially note how this doesn’t make sense if it did, because Enma takes Spirits from across the entire Mortal Universe.
How?
Dude, no. As I modeled before:
0 -> 0 -> Goku blips in (still 0) -> Training (still 0) -> Training some more (still 0) -> Leaves (still 0) -> 0
While the Universe is:
1 -> 2 -> Goku leaves from MU (exiting time, 3) -> 4 -> 5 -> Goku enters MU (entering Time, 6) -> 7
Time still flows outside Otherworld, thus when Goku enters and exists the Mortal World, time shouldn’t “freeze.” It literally just marches on, without Goku, until he re-enters it. And Gojo’s experience is not “opposite,” it’s literally identical. Timeless Realm but still follows cause and effect and allows free movement, entering and exiting doesn’t stop time (because why would it?), etc. It’s actually a great example.
No? The reason why I mentioned Kawaki’s ability is because he can move himself in that frozen dimension, but Time is still frozen within it. Kawaki’s relationship with the Dimension (having free movement in a timeless world, and when he enters and exits doesn’t reappear in the same moment in time), is also a good example.
Except the RoSaT doesn’t move based on Earth time, 1, and 2, even in that instance, based on YOUR argument, a year should pass on the outside. (Because for some reason, according to you, the properties of a Timeless Realm would force a time stop on a realm with time).
Except it DOES follow common sense. It’s not like it’s an overlapping parallel dimension that affects the world, like Puragatorio from Bayonetta. It’s a wholly separate reality without Time, THUS, Time flows outside of that place, has NO BEARING on that Realm, and VICE VERSA. So Time wouldn’t magically stop for no frickin’ reason.
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Who cares if the verse gets downgraded redreaper comments makes sense to me.
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The same for me
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