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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

  • Despite being held back subconsciously by gentle-heartedness, SSJ Gohan is considered stronger than his Buu Saga self. >18.6081478 Foe
    • Without even powering up further from the battle with Goku, Cell easily dominates a Gohan who refuses to fight back.
    • At full power, Cell shakes the Earth itself.
  • Empowered by blinding rage, Cell enters a Third Grade-like state again. >930.40739 Foe (4-B)
    • SSJ2 Gohan two-shots Powerweighted Cell.
      • A fully-powered SSJ Gohan is half as strong. >465.203695 Foe
        • Gohan is fifty-times weaker. >9.3040739 Foe
    • Super Perfect Cell was resurrected even stronger than ever before.
  • Cell's Solar Kamehameha threatened to destroy the solar system. >1.053 KiloFoe
    • A weakened Gohan's Kamehameha withheld Cell's.
    • The Father-Son Kamehameha completely and instantly obliterated Cell.
hm...
 
With all the Tier 2 cosmology discussion underway, now's as good a time as any to bring up a certain scan I've had on me for some time (I just had trouble getting it verified).

Ya'll know the infamous dimensionally transcendental Afterlife scan?
please-stop-with-the-debate-on-whether-the-afterlife-in-v0-xad93g9zrnvc1.jpeg


Apparently, the scan was adapted into the Chouzenshuu 1, where it's translated as "a heavenly nation transcendent of space-time."
0rghTpa.png

Not only is this solid extra evidence for spatiotemporally separate Otherworld, this scan absolutely slaughters all those old arguments that "transcendental is different from transcendent and just means spiritual, so dimensionally transcendental just means it's a spiritual world and doesn't indicate higher dimensions."
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
With all the Tier 2 cosmology discussion underway, now's as good a time as any to bring up a certain scan I've had on me for some time (I just had trouble getting it verified).

Ya'll know the infamous dimensionally transcendental Afterlife scan?
please-stop-with-the-debate-on-whether-the-afterlife-in-v0-xad93g9zrnvc1.jpeg


Apparently, the scan was adapted into the Chouzenshuu 1, where it's translated as "a heavenly nation transcendent of space-time."
0rghTpa.png

Not only is this solid extra evidence for spatiotemporally separate Otherworld, this scan absolutely slaughters all those old arguments that "transcendental is different from transcendent and just means spiritual, so dimensionally transcendental just means it's a spiritual world and doesn't indicate higher dimensions."
Click to expand...
"transcendent of space-time" still mostly doesn't mean anything for tiering purposes.
 
ProfectusInfinity said:
With all the Tier 2 cosmology discussion underway, now's as good a time as any to bring up a certain scan I've had on me for some time (I just had trouble getting it verified).

Ya'll know the infamous dimensionally transcendental Afterlife scan?
please-stop-with-the-debate-on-whether-the-afterlife-in-v0-xad93g9zrnvc1.jpeg


Apparently, the scan was adapted into the Chouzenshuu 1, where it's translated as "a heavenly nation transcendent of space-time."
0rghTpa.png

Not only is this solid extra evidence for spatiotemporally separate Otherworld, this scan absolutely slaughters all those old arguments that "transcendental is different from transcendent and just means spiritual, so dimensionally transcendental just means it's a spiritual world and doesn't indicate higher dimensions."
Click to expand...
Is there are any way to read the Chouzenshuu online?
 
StekFence said:
Not on its own, but it can help
Click to expand...
Eh not really. "Transcending space and time" doesn't really indicate something higher dimensional and more indicates a realm which lacks those things. Also with context something transcending space and time in a general sense would also be low 1-A or 1-A
 
I will hunt down that Chozenshu if it means I can use it in conjunction with the original series's Japanese transcript, and the Super Exciting Guide, and the "temporal world" comments, and the Daizenshuu to prove timeless Other World.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
I will hunt down that Chozenshu if it means I can use it in conjunction with the original series's Japanese transcript, and the Super Exciting Guide, and the "temporal world" comments, and the Daizenshuu to prove timeless Other World.
Click to expand...
In my opinion the fact we have to go so far when it’s stated in guides and by Goku verbatim says a lot about how the Wiki takes in evidence as it sees fit. I also never understood the claim that the “Saiyan Saga disproves it,” when all it proves is that time still moves normally outside of the Otherworld like we see happen with other Timeless Dimensions in fiction, or the Room of Spirit and Time, which has its own accelerated flow.
 
I never noticed until now (because I've never visited this page before), but the Dragon Ball Wiki's entry on "Trunks Surpasses His Father!" (DBZ:192) includes an image named "SuperTrunksVsPerfectCell(manga).jpg" in its summary of the chapter—except, the image is not from the manga, but from Aya Matsui's The Lonely Future Warrior!! Trunks, an "Original Illustrated Story" included in the Film Animation Comic version of Bardock - The Father of Goku; Minoru Maeda provided illustrations.

This only matters to a dork like me.
 
Last edited:
RedReaper616 said:
In my opinion the fact we have to go so far when it’s stated in guides and by Goku verbatim says a lot about how the Wiki takes in evidence as it sees fit. I also never understood the claim that the “Saiyan Saga disproves it,” when all it proves is that time still moves normally outside of the Otherworld like we see happen with other Timeless Dimensions in fiction, or the Room of Spirit and Time, which has its own accelerated flow.
Click to expand...
No no, that's actually a good point.
Why would time flow at all? If other world is timeless, aka, 0 time passes, then 0 time should pass elsewhere, when viewed from the perspective of other world and its inhabitants. This is contradicted quite literally like 100+ times. Even just Goku dipping in for a minute, and then going home, or chichi saying it's been a few months since he ****** off to train with king kai, in which it's been a few months, or goku zipping across snake away as time passes and nappa beats mfs. Other World and the uni seem to have the exact timeflow even (no im not saying theynhave the same space-time, sheesh), as in, 1 second there, 1 second out. The perception of time seems the same.

And bringing up the ROSAT is actually a counterpoint. While time passes in both dimensions, time passes at a RELATIVE rate. Ie, one year in there, one day out there. To give you an idea why this BAD, arguing heaven has some sort of fucky time but time still passes normally out of it, would be like arguing despite the ROSAT having ****** up time, 1 year in there, 1 year out of it. Which obviously, nuh uh, the ROSAT paints a clear picture on how actual time discrepancy fuckery acts.

And other media actually dont get that accepted if say, bro goes in, ***** around, exits, and time passes..it only works if bro enters, ***** around, exits and NO time passes. And if they did, tell me which, that's hypocritical double standards.

Unless by timeless ya mean something completely different (i dont actually know, i only read like, two posts), but it's exactly that why we dont accept world of void as timeless (48m lol), time STILL passes.
 

Bingo!​

With ごと ("each") transformation, Frieza's power is 高める ("[raised]; [boosted]; [enhanced]") by 何倍 ("manyfold").

Given the Second Form "more than" doubles Frieza's power, "manyfold" should be, at bare minimum, over two-times, which means Frieza jumps from >14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level), to >29.6489822 Quettatons, to >59.2979644 Quettatons, to >118.595929 Quettatons (Small Star level+), and then up to 4743.83716 Quettatons (Large Star level) at 100% Full Power and as Mecha Frieza.
 
Nullflowerblush said:

Bingo!​

With ごと ("each") transformation, Frieza's power is 高める ("[raised]; [boosted]; [enhanced]") by 何倍 ("manyfold").

Given the Second Form "more than" doubles Frieza's power, "manyfold" should be, at bare minimum, over two-times, which means Frieza jumps from >14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level), to >29.6489822 Quettatons, to >59.2979644 Quettatons, to >118.595929 Quettatons (Small Star level+), and then up to 4743.83716 Quettatons (Large Star level) at 100% Full Power and as Mecha Frieza.
Click to expand...

This is fine, i like this
 
Nullflowerblush said:

Bingo!​

With ごと ("each") transformation, Frieza's power is 高める ("[raised]; [boosted]; [enhanced]") by 何倍 ("manyfold").

Given the Second Form "more than" doubles Frieza's power, "manyfold" should be, at bare minimum, over two-times, which means Frieza jumps from >14.82449109 Quettatons (Small Star level), to >29.6489822 Quettatons, to >59.2979644 Quettatons, to >118.595929 Quettatons (Small Star level+), and then up to 4743.83716 Quettatons (Large Star level) at 100% Full Power and as Mecha Frieza.
Click to expand...

I'll include this in that sandbox I made with the new frieza calc in another section alongside Semi-Perfect Cell's multiplier
 

Frieza Saga​

  • Empowered by rage, Gohan briefly succeeds in harming the invincible Third Form Frieza. >59.2979644 Quettatons (Small Star level)
  • Post-Zenkai Goku battles evenly with Frieza for an extended period of time. >118.595929 Quettatons (Small Star level+)
  • The Kaio-ken amplifies Goku's abilities by ten and twenty-fold, respectively. >1185.95929 Quettatons / 2371.91858 Quettatons (Large Star level)
  • As a Super Saiyan, Goku's strength is multiplied by fifty-times. >5929.79645 Quettatons

Trunks the Story -The Lone Warrior-/Trunks Saga​

  • Having trained and fought with the Androids for nearly two decades, Future Gohan is far stronger than his younger self. >59.2979644 Quettatons
  • As a Super Saiyan, Gohan's strength is multiplied by fifty-times. >2964.89822 Quettatons
  • Future Android 17 battled SSJ Future Gohan with less than half of his full power. >5929.79645 Quettatons
  • After mechanizing, Frieza was confident in being stronger than Goku. >5929.79645 Quettatons
    • SSJ Future Trunks defeated Frieza "in seconds".

Cell Saga​

  • After absorbing 600,000+ Earthlings, Cell gained power exceeding that of Piccolo and Android 17. >5929.79645 Quettatons
  • By absorbing Android 17, Cell adds his power atop its own. >11859.5929 Quettatons
  • Even as regular Super Saiyans, Post-RoSaT Vegeta and Trunks surpass Semi-Perfect Cell. >11859.5929 Quettatons
    • In their normal forms, Vegeta and Trunks are fifty-times weaker. >237.191858 Quettatons (Star level)
  • By absorbing Android 18, Cell adds her power atop its own. >17789.3893 Quettatons
  • Cell undergoes a Super Saiyan Third Grade-like (同様 dōyō; "identical") transformation. >37.2162956 Foe (Solar System level)

Cell Games Saga (Pt. 1)​

  • At half strength, SSJ Goku far surpasses the Z-Fighters, including the likes of Trunks. >1.48865182 Foe
    • In his normal form, Goku is fifty-times weaker. >711.57557 Quettatons
  • The Cell Juniors possess Cell's power. >17789.3893 Quettatons
    • Post-2nd RoSaT SSJ Vegeta and Trunks can fight equally with the Cell Juniors.
      • In their normal forms, Vegeta and Trunks are fifty-times weaker. >355.787786 Quettatons
    • Post-RoSaT Piccolo can hold off the Cell Juniors.

World Tournament Saga​

  • The East Supreme Kai, Shin, is "dimensions apart" from Piccolo. >17789.3893 Quettatons
    • Long story short, Gohan is stronger than Shin.
  • As a Super Saiyan 2, Gohan's strength is increased by a hundred-fold. >74.4325912 Foe

Babidi Saga​

  • SSJ Gohan exchanges blows "evenly" with Dabura. >37.2162956 Foe (Solar System level)

Cell Games Saga (Pt. 2)​

  • Despite a self-imposed limitation born of a gentle-heartedness (requires citation), SSJ Gohan is stronger than Babidi Saga SSJ Gohan. >37.2162956 Foe
    • Without even powering up further from the fight with Goku, Cell stomps a passive Gohan.
    • At full power, Cell far surpasses anything demonstrated prior, barring the power of a next-level Super Saiyan.
  • Blinded by anger, Cell enters a Third Grade-like form again. >1.86081478 KiloFOE
    • SSJ2 Gohan two-shots Powerweighted Cell.
      • At full power, SSJ Gohan should be half as strong. >930.40739 Foe
      • In his normal form, Gohan is one-hundred-times weaker. >18.6081478 Foe (Large Star level+)
    • Super Perfect Cell is more powerful than ever.
    • The Solar Kamehameha threatened the destruction of the entire solar system. >1.053 KiloFOE
  • With half his Ki, the Father-Son Kamehameha annihilated Cell. >2.106 KiloFOE

Majin Buu Saga​

Fusion Saga​

  • Despite Piccolo believing they needed Super Saiyan based off of their previous performance, after training in the Room of Spirit and Time, Gotenks grew powerful enough that Piccolo believed he could battle Super Buu normally; ultimately, though, he needed Super Saiyan. >372.162956 KiloFOE
  • In SSJ, Gotenks is fifty-times stronger than in his normal form. >1.24054319 MegaFOE
  • In SSJ3, Gotenks is eight-times stronger than before. >9.92434552 MegaFOE
    • Super Buu and SSJ3 Gotenks are equally matched.
    • Buutenks is stronger than Super Buu, but weaker than Ultimate Gohan yet.
    • Ultimate Gohan far surpasses the abilities of Super Saiyan 3. (requires citation)
  • By absorbing Gotenks and then Gohan, Buu gains infinite power. >19.848691 MegaFOE
  • By virtue of a rival boost, the fusion of Goku and Vegeta (Vegito) is more powerful than the fusion of Goku and Gohan. (requires citation) >9.92434552 MegaFOE
  • Super Vegito is the greatest known superpower in the universe, eclipsing the likes of Buuhan. >496.217276 MegaFOE
I'd like to use Goku questioning if Vegeta or Piccolo had defeated Frieza for scaling, but he only asked because he could not identify the Ki as Trunks's or a Super Saiyan's.
 
Nullflowerblush said:

Frieza Saga​

  • Empowered by rage, Gohan briefly succeeds in harming the invincible Third Form Frieza. >59.2979644 Quettatons (Small Star level)
  • Post-Zenkai Goku battles evenly with Frieza for an extended period of time. >118.595929 Quettatons (Small Star level+)
  • The Kaio-ken amplifies Goku's abilities by ten and twenty-fold, respectively. >1185.95929 Quettatons / 2371.91858 Quettatons (Large Star level)
  • As a Super Saiyan, Goku's strength is multiplied by fifty-times. >5929.79645 Quettatons

Trunks the Story -The Lone Warrior-/Trunks Saga​

  • Having trained and fought with the Androids for nearly two decades, Future Gohan is far stronger than his younger self. >59.2979644 Quettatons
  • As a Super Saiyan, Gohan's strength is multiplied by fifty-times. >2964.89822 Quettatons
  • Future Android 17 battled SSJ Future Gohan with less than half of his full power. >5929.79645 Quettatons
  • After mechanizing, Frieza was confident in being stronger than Goku. >5929.79645 Quettatons
    • SSJ Future Trunks defeated Frieza "in seconds".

Cell Saga​

  • After absorbing 600,000+ Earthlings, Cell gained power exceeding that of Piccolo and Android 17. >5929.79645 Quettatons
  • By absorbing Android 17, Cell adds his power atop its own. >11859.5929 Quettatons
  • Even as regular Super Saiyans, Post-RoSaT Vegeta and Trunks surpass Semi-Perfect Cell. >11859.5929 Quettatons
    • In their normal forms, Vegeta and Trunks are fifty-times weaker. >237.191858 Quettatons (Star level)
  • By absorbing Android 18, Cell adds her power atop its own. >17789.3893 Quettatons
  • Cell undergoes a Super Saiyan Third Grade-like (同様 dōyō; "identical") transformation. >37.2162956 Foe (Solar System level)

Cell Games Saga (Pt. 1)​

  • At half strength, SSJ Goku far surpasses the Z-Fighters, including the likes of Trunks. >1.48865182 Foe
    • In his normal form, Goku is fifty-times weaker. >711.57557 Quettatons
  • The Cell Juniors possess Cell's power. >17789.3893 Quettatons
    • Post-2nd RoSaT SSJ Vegeta and Trunks can fight equally with the Cell Juniors.
      • In their normal forms, Vegeta and Trunks are fifty-times weaker. >355.787786 Quettatons
    • Post-RoSaT Piccolo can hold off the Cell Juniors.

World Tournament Saga​

  • The East Supreme Kai, Shin, is "dimensions apart" from Piccolo. >17789.3893 Quettatons
    • Long story short, Gohan is stronger than Shin.
  • As a Super Saiyan 2, Gohan's strength is increased by a hundred-fold. >74.4325912 Foe

Babidi Saga​

  • SSJ Gohan exchanges blows "evenly" with Dabura. >37.2162956 Foe (Solar System level)

Cell Games Saga (Pt. 2)​

  • Despite a self-imposed limitation born of a gentle-heartedness (requires citation), SSJ Gohan is stronger than Babidi Saga SSJ Gohan. >37.2162956 Foe
    • Without even powering up further from the fight with Goku, Cell stomps a passive Gohan.
    • At full power, Cell far surpasses anything demonstrated prior, barring the power of a next-level Super Saiyan.
  • Blinded by anger, Cell enters a Third Grade-like form again. >1.86081478 KiloFOE
    • SSJ2 Gohan two-shots Powerweighted Cell.
      • At full power, SSJ Gohan should be half as strong. >930.40739 Foe
      • In his normal form, Gohan is one-hundred-times weaker. >18.6081478 Foe (Large Star level+)
    • Super Perfect Cell is more powerful than ever.
    • The Solar Kamehameha threatened the destruction of the entire solar system. >1.053 KiloFOE
  • With half his Ki, the Father-Son Kamehameha annihilated Cell. >2.106 KiloFOE

Majin Buu Saga​

Fusion Saga​

  • Despite Piccolo believing they needed Super Saiyan based off of their previous performance, after training in the Room of Spirit and Time, Gotenks grew powerful enough that Piccolo believed he could battle Super Buu normally; ultimately, though, he needed Super Saiyan. >372.162956 KiloFOE
  • In SSJ, Gotenks is fifty-times stronger than in his normal form. >1.24054319 MegaFOE
  • In SSJ3, Gotenks is eight-times stronger than before. >9.92434552 MegaFOE
    • Super Buu and SSJ3 Gotenks are equally matched.
    • Buutenks is stronger than Super Buu, but weaker than Ultimate Gohan yet.
    • Ultimate Gohan far surpasses the abilities of Super Saiyan 3. (requires citation)
  • By absorbing Gotenks and then Gohan, Buu gains infinite power. >19.848691 MegaFOE
  • By virtue of a rival boost, the fusion of Goku and Vegeta (Vegito) is more powerful than the fusion of Goku and Gohan. (requires citation) >9.92434552 MegaFOE
  • Super Vegito is the greatest known superpower in the universe, eclipsing the likes of Buuhan. >496.217276 MegaFOE
I'd like to use Goku questioning if Vegeta or Piccolo had defeated Frieza for scaling, but he only asked because he could not identify the Ki as Trunks's or a Super Saiyan's.
Click to expand...
dang beat me to it
 
Chariot190 said:
No no, that's actually a good point.
Why would time flow at all? If other world is timeless, aka, 0 time passes, then 0 time should pass elsewhere, when viewed from the perspective of other world and its inhabitants.
Click to expand...
Based on what logic? The World of Living still has a flow of time, one, so that legitimately doesn’t work. It’s also not like time “stops” for Goku. All that occurs is time moves naturally in the Mortal Universe while Goku ***** off. Like, that line of thinking doesn’t apply unless specified by the story. Two, all of the means that Goku watches Otherworld are through the Gods. Crystal Orbs, King Kai’s Clairvoyance, etc. Essentially, magical powers. This means no one actually views them in the normal way to achieve that effect.
Chariot190 said:
This is contradicted quite literally like 100+ times. Even just Goku dipping in for a minute, and then going home, or chichi saying it's been a few months since he ****** off to train with king kai, in which it's been a few months, or goku zipping across snake away as time passes and nappa beats mfs. Other World and the uni seem to have the exact timeflow even (no im not saying theynhave the same space-time, sheesh), as in, 1 second there, 1 second out. The perception of time seems the same.
Click to expand...
Except that isn’t necessary?

Nothing says that Otherworld can’t be:

0 -> 0 -> Goku blips in (still 0) -> Training (still 0) -> Training some more (still 0) -> Leaves (still 0) -> 0

While the Universe is

1 -> 2 -> Goku leaves from MU (exiting time, 3) -> 4 -> 5 -> Goku enters MU (entering Time, 6) -> 7

Chariot190 said:
And bringing up the ROSAT is actually a counterpoint. While time passes in both dimensions, time passes at a RELATIVE rate. Ie, one year in there, one day out there. To give you an idea why this BAD, arguing heaven has some sort of fucky time but time still passes normally out of it, would be like arguing despite the ROSAT having ****** up time, 1 year in there, 1 year out of it. Which obviously, nuh uh, the ROSAT paints a clear picture on how actual time discrepancy fuckery acts.
Click to expand...
Except the RoSaT doesn’t operate based on the Earth? It’s just conveniently moving at a speed specifically a year’s worth. Just like how other versions move at their own time rates. Furthermore, again, I have no idea why Time can’t just pass linearly while the people outside time enter and exit time.
Chariot190 said:
And other media actually dont get that accepted if say, bro goes in, ***** around, exits, and time passes..it only works if bro enters, ***** around, exits and NO time passes. And if they did, tell me which, that's hypocritical double standards.
Click to expand...
What sense does this make? The only one whose time perception should be ****** is the guy in the timeless dimension, not those in normal time around him. Just because time doesn’t pass in another realm doesn’t suddenly make another reality stop having its own flow.
 
Last edited:
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