Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

[Ednaxel2]

I finished my part on the AP scaling with Third Form Friezas multiplier and Semi-Perfect Cell

Ednaxel2/Sandbox1

vsbattles.fandom.com

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[Ednaxel2]

Now I'll just need to get that multiplier for Semi-Perfect Cell and put the link here

 

[RedReaper616]

I finished my part on the AP scaling with Third Form Friezas multiplier and Semi-Perfect Cell

Ednaxel2/Sandbox1

vsbattles.fandom.com

kinda big

You ever think Cell looked at the Supercomputer, realized that it was literally impossible to ever achieve perfection without cheats, (the Androids are stronger than his base form is without him absorbing countless people, meaning he would never win in a fight or get his opportunity without those bodies), and cursed out Dr. Gero for making his life hard?

Edit: Also, didn’t EML state that Buu Saga Piccolo = MSSJ Goku at Cell Games? Putting them at the 11K Quettaton range?

 

[Ednaxel2]

You ever think Cell looked at the Supercomputer, realized that it was literally impossible to ever achieve perfection without cheats, (the Androids are stronger than his base form is without him absorbing countless people, meaning he would never win in a fight or get his opportunity without those bodies), and cursed out Dr. Gero for making his life hard?

I mean he does have Goku's trait of enjoying the surge of ever growing strength (even if he does it by means outside of training, likely a trait he derived from Frieza and Saiyan Saga Vegeta) so I don't think Cell would be bothered by needing to become stronger to overcome his obstacles, Perfection IS just him becoming stronger

 

[RedReaper616]

I mean he does have Goku's trait of enjoying the surge of ever growing strength (even if he does it by means outside of training, likely a trait he derived from Frieza and Saiyan Saga Vegeta) so I don't think Cell would be bothered by needing to become stronger to overcome his obstacles, Perfection IS just him becoming stronger

True.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Edit: Also, didn’t EML state that Buu Saga Piccolo = MSSJ Goku at Cell Games? Putting them at the 11K Quettaton range?

It was actually Supreme Kai, but that was rejected for...whatever reason

 

[Chariot190]

Based on what logic?

The fact it's timeless so time shouldnt pass?

The World of Living still has a flow of time, one, so that legitimately doesn’t work.

And? If bro is in Other World, any time he spends there should be, comparatively, INSTANT, relative to the living world.

If time passes in both, 1:1, it isnt timeless.

It’s also not like time “stops” for Goku.

It SHOULD if it's timeless.

All that occurs is time moves naturally in the Mortal Universe while Goku ***** off. Like, that line of thinking doesn’t apply unless specified by the story.

No thats actual standards and what timeless indicates..if it doesnt follow that, it's just yapping that means nothing.

If Goku goes to other world, and to him 5 minutes has passed. And then he goes to living world, and 5m ALSO passed, whole thing falls apart. Zero minutes shouldve passed, in much the same way time in the rosat and living world isnt uniform and the discrepancy is actually reflected in perceived time, the same would also apply here.

It doesnt, it's the exact opposite, so it aint.

Two, all of the means that Goku watches Otherworld are through the Gods. Crystal Orbs, King Kai’s Clairvoyance, etc. Essentially, magical powers. This means no one actually views them in the normal way to achieve that effect.

Bro, we are LITERALLY given exact timeframes down to the minute at multiple points. And some cases months. It's uniform. Time passes the same between, if it timeless, no time shouldve passed.

Except that isn’t necessary?

Nothing says that Otherworld can’t be:

0 -> 0 -> Goku blips in (still 0) -> Training (still 0) -> Leaves (still 0) -> 0

The entire Saiyan Saga, Cell exploding in other world time passing and coming back like 10m later despite that whole time he was in other world, goku ******* off to king kai to train for a few weeks in super, the numerous times Goku blips there, does stuff, comes back and time has passed, the 7y time skip. Like jesus man there's actually like a hundred.

You're straight up wrong, we KNOW that isnt what happens.

While the Universe is

1 -> 2 -> Goku leaves from MU (exiting time, 3) -> 4 -> Goku enters MU (entering Time, 5), -> 6

See above.

Except the RoSaT doesn’t operate based on the Earth?

And neither would other world if it has no time?

Like dog, you either have time or you dont, there's no inbetween. It does, we know it does. If youre arguing it's tied to earth, that still means it effectively has time.

It’s just conveniently moving at a speed specifically a year’s worth. Just like how other versions move at their own time rates.

Yes, because it has a different time. Time in there, and time out, differ, because time flows differently.

This proves and acknowledges DBZ can and will show time discrepancies.
Other World, explicitly shows otherwise.

Furthermore, again, I have no idea why Time can’t just pass linearly while the people outside time enter and exit time.

For the exact same reason why a year in the ROSAT aint the same outside? They have different time flows, in other worlds case, it'd have NONE.

What sense does this make? The only one whose time perception should be ****** is the guy in the timeless dimension, not those in normal time around him. Just because time doesn’t pass in another realm doesn’t suddenly make another reality stop having its own flow.

The fact Goku's and everybody's time perception isnt ******. The very fact DBZ follows these rules hence why the ROSAT aint useless, with a perceived year in there, being only a day out, precisely due to said time difference.

Other World is cooked lad, it literally doesnt work with both common sense, our standards, and even the verse itself.
Also not that it matters, but do note this would downgrade the cosmology as if otherworld lacks time, it evidently wouldnt be a separate space time and lack a defining trait of what makes a dimension, dimensionsal, that being TIME. U7 would basically lose a uni.

 

[RedReaper616]

The fact it's timeless so time shouldnt pass?

And? If bro is in Other World, any time he spends there should be, comparatively, INSTANT, relative to the living world.

If time passes in both, 1:1, it isnt timeless.

It SHOULD if it's timeless.

No thats actual standards and what timeless indicates..if it doesnt follow that, it's just yapping that means nothing.

If Goku goes to other world, and to him 5 minutes has passed. And then he goes to living world, and 5m ALSO passed, whole thing falls apart. Zero minutes shouldve passed, in much the same way time in the rosat and living world isnt uniform and the discrepancy is actually reflected in perceived time, the same would also apply here.

It doesnt, it's the exact opposite, so it aint.

Bro, we are LITERALLY given exact timeframes down to the minute at multiple points. And some cases months. It's uniform. Time passes the same between, if it timeless, no time shouldve passed.

The entire Saiyan Saga, Cell exploding in other world time passing and coming back like 10m later despite that whole time he was in other world, goku ******* off to king kai to train for a few weeks in super, the numerous times Goku blips there, does stuff, comes back and time has passed, the 7y time skip. Like jesus man there's actually like a hundred.

You're straight up wrong, we KNOW that isnt what happens.

See above.


And neither would other world if it has no time?

Like dog, you either have time or you dont, there's no inbetween. It does, we know it does. If youre arguing it's tied to earth, that still means it effectively has time.

Yes, because it has a different time. Time in there, and time out, differ, because time flows differently.

This proves and acknowledges DBZ can and will show time discrepancies.
Other World, explicitly shows otherwise.

For the exact same reason why a year in the ROSAT aint the same outside? They have different time flows, in other worlds case, it'd have NONE.


The fact Goku's and everybody's time perception isnt ******. The very fact DBZ follows these rules hence why the ROSAT aint useless, with a perceived year in there, being only a day out, precisely due to said time difference.

Other World is cooked lad, it literally doesnt work with both common sense, our standards, and even the verse itself.
Also not that it matters, but do note this would downgrade the cosmology as if otherworld lacks time, it evidently wouldnt be a separate space time and lack a defining trait of what makes a dimension, dimensionsal, that being TIME. U7 would basically lose a uni.

None of this explains why it wouldn’t work, mechanically. Also, no? Not basing it on Earth.

Here’s an example: The Prison Realm in JJK. It’s timeless. There’s no time inside it. Thus, while Gojo can still move and think, he doesn’t age at all. However, on the outside, time still flows normally. Thus, when it takes literally forever to let him out, he comes out at that moment in time, forever later/after. Not when he went in.

Because another realm having no time =/= Your own time suddenly not existing.

Or, another example—Jigen and Kawaki’s Timeless Realm. Anything and everything within it is stuck in time, and is also unable to move, unless they choose otherwise. Despite this, when they go in and out, (and when they trap others), time floats naturally on the outside. Thus, when he leaves from his pocket realm, he exits it and re-enters time at that new moment, not the same one he went in.

Because another realm having no time =/= Your own time suddenly not existing.

Again, Time should only be screwed perspective wise from the people going back and forth (so just Goku), not literally “freezing time” by dimension hopping and stopping the flow of time in the Living World.

 

[RedReaper616]

It was actually Supreme Kai, but that was rejected for...whatever reason

Huh. Weird.

 

[Chariot190]

None of this explains why it wouldn’t work, mechanically. Also, no? Not basing it on Earth

Dude. If 0 time passes in Other World, when Goku and friends go there, abd then come back, no time should have passed. Literally think of it as a infinite rosat..

You did, you said it was tied.

Here’s an example: The Prison Realm in JJK. It’s timeless. There’s no time inside it. Thus, while Gojo can still move and think, he doesn’t age at all. However, on the outside, time still flows normally. Thus, when it takes literally forever to let him out, he comes out at that moment in time, forever later/after. Not when he went in.

Dog that example is also shit, especially given how Gojo describes it, that place is basically the exact opposite of other world anyway.
Two wrongs aint making a right, especially in a verse that DOES get it right.

Because another realm having no time =/= Your own time suddenly not existing.

Youre right, youre missing the problem though.

Time is shown, EVERYTIME to pass between that at the same rate, additionally, while in said timeless place, any time there, upon returning, SHOULD be completely skewed, if not at all. Given the Rosat establishes DBZ works on the latter....yeah nuh uh.

Or, another example—Jigen and Kawaki’s Timeless Realm. Anything and everything within it is stuck in time, and is also unable to move, unless they choose otherwise. Despite this, when they go in and out, (and when they trap others), time floats naturally on the outside. Thus, when he leaves from his pocket realm, he exits it and re-enters time at that new moment, not the same one he went in.

Oh so other world everyone is frozen?
No dude, youre not only listing off dubious "timeless" places, but youre listing off OPPOSITE examples of what you should be.
Time passes 1:1 in other world as it does the living world. To Goku, five minutes there, is five minutes outside, and vice versa.
It demonstrably has a stable time flow.

Additionally,dbz establishes that dimensions with time discrepancy, has the dimensions flow relative to the time difference. This is the model DBZ works with.

Again, Time should only be screwed perspective wise from the people going back and forth (so just Goku), not literally “freezing time” by dimension hopping and stopping the flow of time in the Living World.

Not even that happens dude.

Timeless Other World is yap, it doesnt follow our standards, or even dbzs own standards, or even common sense.
And using other verses, as if i dont have problems with that too, aint gonna cut it.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I agree with Chariot's take here. Otherworld being truly timeless doesn't work. It's probably more about Otherworld being a realm of the dead and gods, ageless beings.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Both Goku and the Super Exciting Guide clarify time does not exist in Other World, but eh. Standards and whathaveyou.
Anyhow, I found a digital scanning of the Chōzenshū 3: Animation Guide Part 2 on archive.org.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Being timeless and having time that doesn't flow are different things, if realm has time and time doesn't flow (T=0) then it's not timeless , time just doesn't flow. There is no one at of portraying a timeless void in relation to outside realms

If a being comes from temporal world, he doesn't stop having his ability to perceive time, if you take an hour glass into that realm for example, you can still count time.

Not only do the people in the afterlife have access to the temporal living world, the souls who populate there all come from the living world, that they have method of counting time just like the living world doesn't..mean anything, certainly doesn't debunk it

However my only real interest in that statement i the further proof that the living world is its own space-time tbh

 

[Chariot190]

Both Goku and the Super Exciting Guide clarify time does not exist in Other World, but eh. Standards and whathaveyou.
Anyhow, I found a digital scanning of the Chōzenshū 3: Animation Guide Part 2 on archive.org.

Yeah, but like, it's demonstrably false.

If a medium yaps, and in function it doesn't adhere to its own logic. Well shit sucks but we'd take how it actually behaves over what it's said to be.

Hell aint even dbz, so many mediums say "time doesnt exist here", yet in function it quite literally does. It's just empty cool anime talk,

Being timeless and having time that doesn't flow are different things, if realm has time and time doesn't flow (T=0) then it's not timeless , time just doesn't flow.

Functionally identical, in fact it's even worse.
If it doesn't have time, not only is it not an alternate dimension (lacks time, every statement calling it as such is now wrong). But what do you think "doesnt have time" entails? It very evidently has time. Not only is it literally 1:1 with the living world, but the fact time progresses there, cause and effect isn't locked, stuff can be accounted for, and so much, means nah, that shit got time.

If it didn't have time, literally none of that would be possible.

There is no one at of portraying a timeless void in relation to outside realms

Anime "timeless realms", and actually being timeless are not the same.

If a being comes from temporal world, he doesn't stop having his ability to perceive time, if you take an hour glass into that realm for example, you can still count time.

No because it's timeless, time not only doesn't flow, it doesn't EXIST. Anything that is a byproduct of time ceases to occur. Like, hell, there's good reasn why moving in timeless places used to be an infinite speed feat, and why that stopped being a thing was not because it ain't infinite, but 99% of "timeless" places demonstrably still have time, like, literally this.

And as for that first bit, does Goku's perception of time stay the same while in the ROSAT? Of course not, his perception of time is linked to the place he's in, just because he's from a place with time, doesn't mean he magically makes places that don't have some.

Not only do the people in the afterlife have access to the temporal living world, the souls who populate there all come from the living world, that they have method of counting time just like the living world doesn't..mean anything, certainly doesn't debunk it

It does? It's why we give Grand Priest time hax, apparently, for making time pass in a timeless void.

I don't think you understand what actually lacking time entails, if you want to say a place literally lacks time, that place has to actively show any facet of time doesn't exist.

However my only real interest in that statement i the further proof that the living world is its own space-time tbh

The living world would be, and other world would be 3-A at max and not count towards the 2-C number because a deciding factor in what makes shit low 2-C, doesn't exist apparently

 

[Hasty12345]

The living world would be, and other world would be 3-A at max and not count towards the 2-C number because a deciding factor in what makes shit low 2-C, doesn't exist apparently

no time implies spacetime

 

[TiltedFN]

Can't time still flow in another realm, even though the realm you're in doesn't have time?

 

[RedReaper616]

Dude. If 0 time passes in Other World, when Goku and friends go there, abd then come back, no time should have passed. Literally think of it as a infinite rosat..

Nooooo? Again, think logically. Going to a Timeless Realm doesn’t remove the time in a different realm.

You did, you said it was tied.

No, I said: “Except the RoSaT doesn’t operate based on the Earth? It’s just conveniently moving at a speed specifically a year’s worth. Just like how other versions move at their own time rates. Furthermore, again, I have no idea why Time can’t just pass linearly while the people outside time enter and exit time.”

It’s not moving at “relative time.” It isn’t connected to Earth’s at all. It just literally happens to move at a specific speed. That’s why other RoSaT have their own, different Time Dilations, such as the version Goku and Merus used, which only gives 3 Earth Days worth per one Earth Day. Similarly, Otherworld isn’t locked to Earth’s timeframe. You should especially note how this doesn’t make sense if it did, because Enma takes Spirits from across the entire Mortal Universe.

Dog that example is also shit, especially given how Gojo describes it, that place is basically the exact opposite of other world anyway.
Two wrongs aint making a right, especially in a verse that DOES get it right.

How?

Youre right, youre missing the problem though.

Time is shown, EVERYTIME to pass between that at the same rate, additionally, while in said timeless place, any time there, upon returning, SHOULD be completely skewed, if not at all. Given the Rosat establishes DBZ works on the latter....yeah nuh uh.

Dude, no. As I modeled before:

0 -> 0 -> Goku blips in (still 0) -> Training (still 0) -> Training some more (still 0) -> Leaves (still 0) -> 0

While the Universe is:

1 -> 2 -> Goku leaves from MU (exiting time, 3) -> 4 -> 5 -> Goku enters MU (entering Time, 6) -> 7

Time still flows outside Otherworld, thus when Goku enters and exists the Mortal World, time shouldn’t “freeze.” It literally just marches on, without Goku, until he re-enters it. And Gojo’s experience is not “opposite,” it’s literally identical. Timeless Realm but still follows cause and effect and allows free movement, entering and exiting doesn’t stop time (because why would it?), etc. It’s actually a great example.

Oh so other world everyone is frozen?
No dude, youre not only listing off dubious "timeless" places, but youre listing off OPPOSITE examples of what you should be.
Time passes 1:1 in other world as it does the living world. To Goku, five minutes there, is five minutes outside, and vice versa.
It demonstrably has a stable time flow.

No? The reason why I mentioned Kawaki’s ability is because he can move himself in that frozen dimension, but Time is still frozen within it. Kawaki’s relationship with the Dimension (having free movement in a timeless world, and when he enters and exits doesn’t reappear in the same moment in time), is also a good example.

Additionally,dbz establishes that dimensions with time discrepancy, has the dimensions flow relative to the time difference. This is the model DBZ works with.

Except the RoSaT doesn’t move based on Earth time, 1, and 2, even in that instance, based on YOUR argument, a year should pass on the outside. (Because for some reason, according to you, the properties of a Timeless Realm would force a time stop on a realm with time).

Not even that happens dude.

Timeless Other World is yap, it doesnt follow our standards, or even dbzs own standards, or even common sense.
And using other verses, as if i dont have problems with that too, aint gonna cut it.

Except it DOES follow common sense. It’s not like it’s an overlapping parallel dimension that affects the world, like Puragatorio from Bayonetta. It’s a wholly separate reality without Time, THUS, Time flows outside of that place, has NO BEARING on that Realm, and VICE VERSA. So Time wouldn’t magically stop for no frickin’ reason.

 

[Deleted member 40688]

Who cares if the verse gets downgraded redreaper comments makes sense to me.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Who cares if the verse gets downgraded redreaper comments makes sense to me.

The same for me

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

One question, that space that contains all those time ring boxes in universe 10, do they not count as timelines?

 

[Killerdrone123]

One question, that space that contains all those time ring boxes in universe 10, do they not count as timelines?

The argument is there is no proof that this boxes contains time rings

In short

 

[Ednaxel2]

One question, that space that contains all those time ring boxes in universe 10, do they not count as timelines?

They no longer will since there isn't enough justification for that

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

The argument is there is no proof that this boxes contains time rings

In short

So, the reasoning is, an entire space was shown, just to hold numerous empty boxes?

 

[Killerdrone123]

So, the reasoning is, an entire space was shown, just to hold numerous empty boxes?

Yes,but the reasoning is that they could also contain other things since there is no solid evidence that all of the boxes contains time ring

 

[Damage3245]

So, the reasoning is, an entire space was shown, just to hold numerous empty boxes?

Not necessarily empty. Just not necessarily containing time rings either.

 

[Ednaxel2]

So, the reasoning is, an entire space was shown, just to hold numerous empty boxes?

No they have the time rings inside

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

One question, that space that contains all those time ring boxes in universe 10, do they not count as timelines?

In fact, that room is only from Universe 10


Where it has been shown that there are more time rings in Universe 7 and all the other 12 Universes

 

[RedReaper616]

In fact, that room is only from Universe 10


Where it has been shown that there are more time rings in Universe 7 and all the other 12 Universes

Each Kai has their own rings representative of those same timelines, not extra. That really doesn’t mean anything.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Each Kai has their own rings representative of those same timelines, not extra. That really doesn’t mean anything.

In fact, it means a lot, where each Universe contains its own space-time, being future, present, and past (which proves that the 12 Universes do not have the same space-time)

But Shin also mentions that he traveled to multiplus parallel universes several times, to find out where the exact moment Zamasu betrayed the old Kaioshin of Universe 10 happened

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Is this match up really valid? Roshi wouldn't be High 8-C at the time: https://vsbattles.com/threads/what-if-tao-killed-goku-tao-pai-pai-vs-master-roshi.122029/

 

[Nullflowerblush]

"parallel" universes

You can't be ******* serious.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Is this match up really valid? Roshi wouldn't be High 8-C at the time: https://vsbattles.com/threads/what-if-tao-killed-goku-tao-pai-pai-vs-master-roshi.122029/

Roshi was previously equal to a weaker Goku and Tao can easily overpower a stronger Goku. And Goku in his next key is moon level, so this matchup ain't fair either way

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

Roshi was previously equal to a weaker Goku and Tao can easily overpower a stronger Goku. And Goku in his next key is moon level, so this matchup ain't fair either way

Remove it then?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

You can't be ******* serious.

I don't have good English, know that.

Several of my things are distorted, i'm talking about multiple Universes, that's what is written on the scan itself.

 

[Ednaxel2]

Remove it then?

The thread? I mean sure but it's not active currently anyways

 

[Ednaxel2]

This is funny to look back on

 

[Nullflowerblush]

No they have the time rings inside

Based off of what? All Gowasu describes the area as is a "safe place".
Why does he need an innumerable number of storage units, as a Supreme Kai, watcher of all things in the universe, for what he describes as all five Time Rings?
To assume the storage units are solely dedicated to holding Time Rings is completely illogical and unreasonable given Gowasu's position.

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

Yes,but the reasoning is that they could also contain other things since there is no solid evidence that all of the boxes contains time ring

Not necessarily empty. Just not necessarily containing time rings either.

So....just to be clear, an isolated room, containing identical boxes, and only those boxes, one of which we see the content inside (time rings ) would now be assumed to contain yet another assumed item instead of the time rings?

What exactly would it contain aside time rings?

No they have the time rings inside

The wouldn't the "5 timelines" theory fall flat?

 

[Ednaxel2]

So....just to be clear, an isolated room, containing identical boxes, and only those boxes, one of which we see the content inside (time rings ) would now be assumed to contain yet another assumed item instead of the time rings?

What exactly would it contain aside time rings?

If we literally do not know, then it's irrelevant

The rest could be time rings, or they can be random things like a cake or a infinite dimensionally sized realm but we don't know, we can only assume

 

[Damage3245]

So....just to be clear, an isolated room, containing identical boxes, and only those boxes, one of which we see the content inside (time rings ) would now be assumed to contain yet another assumed item instead of the time rings?

What exactly would it contain aside time rings?

If you go to a storage unit that has dozens of identical storage rooms in it, and you open one and find it is full of DVD's.... Does that prove that every other storage room is also being used to store DVD's?