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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

Yeah I know
But if the Kamehameha Kiai deflecting thing can be applied to AP, then maybe this could apply to Roshi's moon busting Kamehameha as well, considering he believes that Tien can deflect any kamehameha and that it's impossible to beat him with this technique
 
Imma be real here but I for one think SSJ Goten/Trunks going well against Cell Max is PIS or an Outlier. We r talking about those who haven’t trained for half a year yet for some very odd reason they can take on someone that’s stronger than CSSB.

That or if we also look at what’s going on Cell Max didn’t seem to be taking dmg to begin with, just being stunned
 
BlackeJan said:
Imma be real here but I for one think SSJ Goten/Trunks going well against Cell Max is PIS or an Outlier. We r talking about those who haven’t trained for half a year yet for some very odd reason they can take on someone that’s stronger than CSSB.

That or if we also look at what’s going on Cell Max didn’t seem to be taking dmg to begin with, just being stunned
Click to expand...

bro threw out all the cards

"either PIS, Outlier, or didn't do any damage" 💀
 
tbf Cell Max's power does seem to be more like it's shooting up than anything and I'm doubtful the starting point was insane in comparison to the rest of them.

Realistically they're still eating pretty good for what they are doing and would still likely scale to, or at worst slightly downscale from the Gammas as they're impressed by what they're doing and they're all fighting relatively evenly, but Cell Max is definitely being a little wonky right now so using him specifically as justification is a little weird to me.

The fact they were banned from training just means apparently they got really into training for a bit. They just got them gains in the past, I guess.
 
BlackeJan said:
Imma be real here but I for one think SSJ Goten/Trunks going well against Cell Max is PIS or an Outlier.
Click to expand...
PIS shouldn't apply here because Goten and Trunks fighting Cell Max isn't inherently required by the plot. Toyotaro is adapting the Super Hero movie and has added these scenes. To add further the character's watching (Gohan, Piccolo, Gammas) all praise how well they are doing and we even have a very strong implication that they believed they could beat Cell Max initially by themselves. This isn't done out of convenience by the author.

For an outlier, I really really hate that term because people lazily toss it out without actually considering what it means. This is Goten and Trunks years after we last saw them fight in the USS and it's practically outright stated that they do train and Bulma prevented them from it only after the Prequel. In order to demonstrate this is an outlier you would need to have a later scene contradict their power in this fight.
BlackeJan said:
We r talking about those who haven’t trained for half a year yet for some very odd reason they can take on someone that’s stronger than CSSB.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure why this is an issue when Piccolo's entire plan was seeing how badly out of shape Gohan was (which we see numerous times in this arc alone) and yet Gohan can still fight Gamma 1 just fine and will unlock Beast. Don't even try me with that "Gohan did train! He learned the Special Beam Cannon!" junk. Gohan is clearly demonstrated as declining from inactivity and Piccolo made that technique when he had a power of like 350.

If they didn't train for half a year and they're this strong then it just means they were even stronger before being grounded.
BlackeJan said:
That or if we also look at what’s going on Cell Max didn’t seem to be taking dmg to begin with, just being stunned
Click to expand...
It's stated that they are trying to defeat Cell Max ASAP because they knew he was going to grow stronger over time. Yet the Gammas couldn't do so, with their blasts doing very little. Yet we see Goten and Trunks smashing Cell Max around multiple times with their energy attacks and even physical blows. Not to mention we see them all take the same blows and survive. And Cell Max was definitely experiencing pain, even if he didn't take lasting damage.

Goten and Trunks were arguably more effective at fighting Cell Max than the Gammas were when the Gammas are always at full power.
 
Question, if we treat pl scaling as ok to use, then wouldn't we know the gap between First form Frieza and Second form Frieza?

Since Namek Goku had a PL (power level) of 90k and said while recovering he would've been of help against Second Form Frieza with Kaioken x10 (which would give him a PL of 900k), then if we use pl's for his Kaioken amps, we can tell the gap between second and first form.

Goku would have a power level slightly higher than First form Frieza with Kaioken x6 (540k compared to Frieza's 530k) which would equal to Frieza's 4.89 Quettatons, base form would be 0.815 Quettatons and Kaioken x10 would be 8.15 Quettatons (which Second form would scale higher than). So second form would be a little less than 2x stronger than first form. Yeah Goku hasn't shown Kaioken x6, but if he can use Kaioken x10, then x6 should be easy for him to use. Technically Goku with a Kaioken x11 (990k) would still be slightly weaker than second form Frieza, but I won't go there since Goku still wouldn't be able to use anything higher than x10 at this time (the possibility is still there though).

Does this seem right or nah?
 
Last edited:
Mr.Cinos15 said:
Question, if we treat pl scaling as ok to use, then wouldn't we know the gap between First form Frieza and Second form Frieza?

Since Namek Goku had a PL (power level) of 90k and said while recovering he would've been of help against Second Form Frieza with Kaioken x10 (which would give him a PL of 900k), then if we use pl's for his Kaioken amps, we can tell the gap between second and first form.

Goku would have a power level slightly higher than First form Frieza with Kaioken x6 (540k compared to Frieza's 530k) which would equal to Frieza's 4.89 Quettatons, base form would be 0.815 Quettatons and Kaioken x10 would be 8.15 Quettatons (which Second form would scale higher than). So second form would be a little less than 2x stronger Yeah Goku hasn't shown Kaioken x6, but if he can use Kaioken x10, then x6 should be easy for him to use. Technically Goku with a Kaioken x11 (990k) would still be slightly weaker than second form Frieza, but I won't go there since Goku still wouldn't be able to use anything higher than x10 at this time (the possibility is still there though).

Does this seem right or nah?
Click to expand...
I don't see anything wrong with this, everything you just said it's confirmed in the manga:

• We are given actual numbers for Frieza's power level: 530,000 and "over a million"
• Goku thought Kaio-ken x10 would help him against Frieza
 
Mr.Cinos15 said:
Question, if we treat pl scaling as ok to use, then wouldn't we know the gap between First form Frieza and Second form Frieza?

Since Namek Goku had a PL (power level) of 90k and said while recovering he would've been of help against Second Form Frieza with Kaioken x10 (which would give him a PL of 900k), then if we use pl's for his Kaioken amps, we can tell the gap between second and first form.

Goku would have a power level slightly higher than First form Frieza with Kaioken x6 (540k compared to Frieza's 530k) which would equal to Frieza's 4.89 Quettatons, base form would be 0.815 Quettatons and Kaioken x10 would be 8.15 Quettatons (which Second form would scale higher than). So second form would be a little less than 2x stronger than first form. Yeah Goku hasn't shown Kaioken x6, but if he can use Kaioken x10, then x6 should be easy for him to use. Technically Goku with a Kaioken x11 (990k) would still be slightly weaker than second form Frieza, but I won't go there since Goku still wouldn't be able to use anything higher than x10 at this time (the possibility is still there though).

Does this seem right or nah?
Click to expand...
Also this would make second form Frieza ever so slightly above baseline Low 4-C. What ramifications would this have for the scaling? I know this would bump the Androids up to High 4-C.
 
Last edited:
Mr.Cinos15 said:
Also this would make second form Frieza ever so slightly above baseline Low 4-C. What ramifications would this have for the scaling? I know this would bump the Androids up to High 4-C.
Click to expand...
Low 4-C to 4-C is 18.14x
4-C to High 4-C is 5.59x
So Low 4-C to High 4-C is 101.4x​

100% Freeza is 40x Post-Zenkai Base Goku so at a minimum 100% Freeza should be 2.5x from High 4-C.

I don't know how power levels are gauged totally here but if you go by Goku being 3,000,000 and 2nd Form Freeza being 1,000,000 you could easily reach 100% Freeza being 120x 2nd Form, which should put him above baseline High 4-C.

Alternatively if a solid argument could be made for 3rd Form having a similar or greater boost to 2nd Form you could also argue for 100% Freeza being around baseline High 4-C.

Given the gap from High 4-C to 4-B is around 715x I could see 4-B becoming even more consistent maybe some potential for 4-B Grade 3 Trunks? 715 / 10 already means he 'only' has to be scaled to 71x Freeza or Namek SS1 Goku to be baseline
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Low 4-C to 4-C is 18.14x
4-C to High 4-C is 5.59x
So Low 4-C to High 4-C is 101.4x​

100% Freeza is 40x Post-Zenkai Base Goku so at a minimum 100% Freeza should be 2.5x from High 4-C.

I don't know how power levels are gauged totally here but if you go by Goku being 3,000,000 and 2nd Form Freeza being 1,000,000 you could easily reach 100% Freeza being 120x 2nd Form, which should put him above baseline High 4-C.

Alternatively if a solid argument could be made for 3rd Form having a similar or greater boost to 2nd Form you could also argue for 100% Freeza being around baseline High 4-C.

Given the gap from High 4-C to 4-B is around 715x I could see 4-B becoming even more consistent maybe some potential for 4-B Grade 3 Trunks? 715 / 10 already means he 'only' has to be scaled to 71x Freeza or Namek SS1 Goku to be baseline
Click to expand...
Sadly all of this requires a bit of speculation, so I'm not certain it would be accepted. But if it is, then sweet. All I can say is that if what I brought up is okay, then I think all the values will basically almost double.

What's the current up to date scaling blog? Asura's is sorta outdated iirc.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Low 4-C to 4-C is 18.14x
4-C to High 4-C is 5.59x
So Low 4-C to High 4-C is 101.4x​

100% Freeza is 40x Post-Zenkai Base Goku so at a minimum 100% Freeza should be 2.5x from High 4-C.

I don't know how power levels are gauged totally here but if you go by Goku being 3,000,000 and 2nd Form Freeza being 1,000,000 you could easily reach 100% Freeza being 120x 2nd Form, which should put him above baseline High 4-C.

Alternatively if a solid argument could be made for 3rd Form having a similar or greater boost to 2nd Form you could also argue for 100% Freeza being around baseline High 4-C.

Given the gap from High 4-C to 4-B is around 715x I could see 4-B becoming even more consistent maybe some potential for 4-B Grade 3 Trunks? 715 / 10 already means he 'only' has to be scaled to 71x Freeza or Namek SS1 Goku to be baseline
Click to expand...
I think it's better to leave power levels alone and only use them for scaling when Kaio-ken is involved.
 
Vizer04 said:
I think it's better to leave power levels alone and only use them for scaling when Kaio-ken is involved.
Click to expand...
Yeah I figured as much. Still I think if an argument could be made for 3rd Form having a similiar increase to 2nd Form we could still get High 4-C Namek Saga. Whether or not that can be done when I recall past 3rd Form threads going nowhere is unknown to me.
 
Emerald said:
Bump
Does anyone know this?
Click to expand...
We would need to get the original Japanese examined but on first impression 'Greater than the whole sum of the parts' doesn't really mean much on its own, as it very likely just refers to how much harder it is to fight two opponents in sync rather than any arbitrary power increase. In the event it was proven to refer to power, we would have no real way to scale it as most team fights feature the team get their asses beat one-sidedly and this is Goku and Vegeta fighting 'perfectly in sync'.

So yeah if you want to delve deeper into this you should grab the Japanese version and put in a request in the Translations thread.
 
Before I go about making this thread, has anybody here ever read or seen anything that attributes Purification or Soul Manipulation to the Stardust Breaker?
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Before I go about making this thread, has anybody here ever read or seen anything that attributes Purification or Soul Manipulation to the Stardust Breaker?
Click to expand...
Instead of trying some kind of downgrade, Why don't you try to see the work in more depth? Janemba was a being made up of souls and the demon returned to what he was before, How is this not soul manipulation and purification? Unless you want to invent the story of greater power to finish Janemba ( which let's face it would be funny)
 
 
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