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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

RedReaper said:
Conversations in Dragon Ball if they acknowledged the power creep:

“Wow son, you’re stronger than when I fought Beerus! What’d you do for training?”

“Uh, I went to school. Slacked off. Sparred a little. Played hero for like, two days and—Well, I haven’t trained in half a year, actually.”

“…”
Click to expand...
A true saiyan games before he gains Kakarot
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Workin' onnit.
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I have some problem with this

Electricity-based Aura
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This isn't something exclusively belong to SSJ2 and higher form i believe, this is Ki thing, everyone can generate electricity with their aura like how Gohan powered up into Power Unleashed state the first time, sometime SSJ1 aura have electricity so this should be removed

Limited Space-Time Manipulation & Portal Creation
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I believe we all know this thing is Ki thing, not something exclusively belong to SSJ3, Super Buu did this, and he isn't Saiyan, DBS Vegeta did a better feat by blow up Room of Spirit and Time in his Base form, and also didn't we have guidebook for this??, so this is just Ki thing when users reach to a certain level of power, this should be removed from Physiology page
 
RinneItachi said:
Huh? Wait so are you referring to like, some inconsistent statement, the scaling on the wiki, or are you actually saying that as a fact? Because there is like, a veritable mountain of evidence suggesting base Goku by the Buu Saga would humiliate and bully his Namek Saga SSJ self.
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it's kinda funny because if you go to the Kanzenshuu forums (and other places) people swear up and down that Goku never surpassed Full Power Freezer in base form and they take Beerus word as the complete decisive factor over it and dismiss all other evidence.
 
RedReaper said:
I mean, from an objective level Goku is obviously the best rival for him because he will constantly grow in power as time passes, growing into the domain of the Gods—For example, had he fought Jiren, even if he had lost (which, uh, he wouldn’t), Beerus wouldn’t really have to do much to grow in strength to exceed Jiren’s level—And this is assuming Beerus’ abilities wouldn’t give him the benefit despite Jiren’s “superior power,” (and ignoring Beerus is his superior anyway).

Whereas Goku would constantly grow at a hyper accelerated rate—The best example being the ToP itself, or just his development from the ToP to Moro when it comes to his progression with UI. So it’s not like Goku is a bad partner or anything—It’s just the very plot for BoG relies on him being impressed and using a “decent” amount of power compared to what he had experienced for hundreds of millions of years.

When in reality he shouldn’t have been impressed and could’ve gotten the battle he craved in the universes over, or just woke up when Moro was wreaking havoc since he’s up there too (which he should’ve done to begin with, as it literally is his job). Mind you, Moro implies that tons of beings were as powerful as SSG and SSB Goku/Vegeta in “his Era,” so I have no ***** clue how Beerus was lacking challenge to begin with.
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The simple explanation is retcon, back when he first showed up Beerus wasn't that much stronger than Godku, in fact Godku matched 60% of his power.

But because the series was gonna continue and Beerus still needed to be a goal to be surpassed, his power was retconned to be higher to the point BoG Godku was a mosquito to him.
 
BlastX said:
The simple explanation is retcon, back when he first showed up Beerus wasn't that much stronger than Godku, in fact Godku matched 60% of his power.

But because the series was gonna continue and Beerus still needed to be a goal to be surpassed, his power was retconned to be higher to the point BoG Godku was a mosquito to him.
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Plus in the movie continuity the most impressive feats/statements were Whis saying Beerus would destroy the Solar system, Beerus destroying multiple celestial bodies after eating wasabi and Whis being able to rewind time as well as been shown/stated to be above Beerus in terms of power.

In the anime SSG Goku Vs (ungodly suppressed) Beerus was sending shockwaves across the U7 local cosmology with Elder Kai they would destroy everything (including the Kaioshin realm which previously withstood Kid Buu Vs SSj3 Goku, Good Buu and SSj2 Vegeta) plus the 6/10/15 scale essentially got scrapped by the U6 Vs U7 arc (maybe earlier). Probably one of the first times I saw a retcon actually benefit powercreep.
 
ChronoULT said:
This is a gigantic spoiler from JJK, but

Sukuna killed Gojo by targeting a cut to space itself, which ignored Gojo's mugen
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So what you’re saying is now, canonically, Buu Saga high tier characters can get through the Limitless by screaming really ******* hard?
 
RedReaper said:
Explain, please.
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不可侵など関係なくその空間世界に存在する限りその空間世界ごと存在を分断される
"Regardless of whether it is inviolable or not, as long as it exists in that spatial world, its existence will be divided along with that spatial world."
 
Alrighty new chapter is out and I'm already seeing great stuff for scaling.

Krillin shows more confidence in Goten and Trunks then the draft translations indicated. And Bulma confirms they had ZERO training in half a year.

Goten and Trunks take Cell Max on without the Gammas for a bit, showing Goten's blast smash Cell Max to the ground. The Gammas comment "Those two...aren't half-bad." They then fly around to Cell Max's back as he's getting up and slam him back down with a combined energy wave.

The Gammas praise them again and then Gamma 1 realises the they resemble eachother. Realising Hedo based them off Goten and Trunks.

Goten and Trunks declare they'll beat Cell Max themselves just for the Gammas to jump in and help. Their four-man combo attack smashes Cell Max away and deals damage.

Gohan and Piccolo praise them for how well they're doing and Gohan states he has enough energy to turn Super Saiyan again.

After all this, Cell Max powers up and begins to dominate the fight. Blitzing the Gammas and smashing Trunks, Gamma 2, Gamma 1 and Goten one after the other with seemingly the same force, harming all of them.

Gohan and Piccolo mention Cell Max is learning as he fights and is growing stronger over time. We then see Goten and Trunks choose to fuse after seeing the power increase (implying they saw no reason to fuse against the Cell Max who was fighting Gamma 1 and 2 at the same time)

They fuse into Fat Gotenks who takes a blow from the powered up Cell Max and takes a bit of damage, prompting Gohan and Piccolo to enter the fight. Cell Max dominates Ultimate Piccolo and SS1 Gohan however.

Gamma 2 explains Cell Max's weakpoint but interestingly states that whoever destroys his head will also die in the explosion, saying it will obliterate every single one of Cell Max's cells 'and then some'.

Ultimate Piccolo blasts Cell Max's head like in the movie and does no damage.

Big W for Krillin fans because in this version he actually saves Pan.

Chapter ends with Gamma 2 resolving to sacrifice himself.

So in short, we have a LOT more scaling justifying Goten and Trunks being on par with the Gammas after not training at all for over six months.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
from cell jrs to cell max with zero training
Click to expand...
Clearly those Cell Jrs prepared them for bugmen.

Huesito88 said:
So if Goten and Trunks preformed a successful Fusion they would've one Shoted Cell Max huh...
Click to expand...
That's entirely possible. Fat Gotenks does take a hit from the powered up Cell Max and I believe fusion was accepted as an at least 500x multiplier with Goten and Trunks scaling to the Gammas (who are Ult Gohan-level) then can stack SS3.

SS3 Gotenks should be 5,000x stronger than Ultimate Gohan via that logic.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Clearly those Cell Jrs prepared them for bugmen.


That's entirely possible. Fat Gotenks does take a hit from the powered up Cell Max and I believe fusion was accepted as an at least 500x multiplier with Goten and Trunks scaling to the Gammas (who are Ult Gohan-level) then can stack SS3.

SS3 Gotenks should be 5,000x stronger than Ultimate Gohan via that logic.
Click to expand...
Wait couldn't we scale Beast form with that logic
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Some part of me finds it hilarious that Base Goku apparently never even reached his Super Saiyan power on Namek throughout all of Z but by the end of the Black Saga, Super Saiyan 1 Vegeta would match Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta (pre-HTC) and by the Super Hero saga Base Goku could probably go toe to toe with SSB Goku in the Broly movie.

Like damn. Going from not even breaching a 50x gap to casually breaching multi-million times gaps multiple times? Yeesh.
Click to expand...
Where ya get this at?
 
Feeling very sick today, so might make some serious errors here.

AwkguyDB said:
Wait couldn't we scale Beast form with that logic
Click to expand...
I'm not sure because we haven't seen how Gotenks would actually fair against Cell Max. Goten and Trunks seem to believe they could have beaten Cell Max with it and they were resorting to it after he powered up and started blitzing them and the Gammas.

Huesito88 said:
Welll if I recall the wording correctly, a hypothetical current ssj3 Gotenks wasn't born yet, no?
Click to expand...
No, but we have a minimum for Fusion multiplier and can speculate. We wouldn't be able to make a profile including a hypothetical Teen Gotenks though.

BlackeJan said:
Where ya get this at?
Click to expand...
Just going off Beerus's claim that Goku couldn't beat Freeza in base form. I don't agree with it it was just an example of how the narrative is trying to present power growth in DB.

---------------------

Anyways I figured I'd try to scale how powerful Gotenks would be:
  • SS1 Goten should at least scale to CSSB Goku (Moro) based off Piccolo's comments for the Gammas.
  • Fusion is accepted as an 'at least' 500x multiplier
  • Therefore SS1 Gotenks would be 500x stronger than SS1 Goten (or Moro CSSBs)
  • SS3 Gotenks would be over 5,000x stronger

Based upon that we can make some assumptions regarding Ultra Instinct's multiplier. Which is the idea that UI is often compared to SSB fusions, Piccolo stating Fusion wouldn't work on Moro (Implying Moro is fast enough to tag CSSB fusions) and DBS Broly's depiction of scaling.
  • Gogeta is stated on his profile to surpass CSSB Goku in even his base form, so we can go off from there.
  • UI Goku ~ CSSB Gogeta (12,500,000x) >>>> Base Gogeta = CSSB Goku
Via that we can say the fusion between Goku and Vegeta is at least a 12,500,000x multiplier and we can argue that UI would scale to that. And we can also stack SS3 on top of SS1 then divide it from CSSB Gogeta/UI Goku.

UI Goku (Moro) ~ CSSB Gogeta (Moro) > (12,500,000x) >> (2,500x) >> SS3 Gotenks >> (25,000x) >> SS1 Gotenks >> Base Gogeta = CSSB Goku = SS1 Goten (SH)​
​
So I believe it's reasonable to say (SH) SS3 Gotenks is at least 1/2,500th the power of UI Goku (Moro). However if we argue Gotenks has the same multiplier as Gogeta then:

SS3 Gotenks > (10x) >UI Goku (Moro) ~ CSSB Gogeta (Moro) ~ SS1 Gotenks > (12,500,000x) >> Base Gogeta = CSSB Goku = SS1 Goten (SH)​

So overall SS3 Gotenks can range from 1/2,500th the power of UI Goku/UI Moro to being 10x stronger than them based off the minimum and maximum Fusion multiplier I can reasonably find via scaling. That's when Goten and Trunks had zero training for half a year.
 
Huesito88 said:
I was talking to the other guy when talking about Beast Gohan not that
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Ah I see, sorry for the misunderstanding then.

As I said I don't think we can use Gotenks to scale Beast currently because the most we know is that Goten/Trunks believed Gotenks could beat Cell Max easily and then when Cell Max powers up they state they need to use it. And I'd imagine he'll continue powering up over the next 2-3 chapters.
 
vsbattles.com

"I am so fond of beauty" (Dragon Ball)

Introduction In DBZ:69 • "Zarbon's True Power", Zarbon reveals to Vegeta that, like Saiyans, he, too, is a "transforming-type" alien, exchanging his beauty for ugliness derived from strength. DRAGON BALL FOREVER explains that when he transforms, "[his] strength and speed jumps several times"...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
again
 
Spinoirr said:
Fun fact Goku in the start of the Moro arc was fighting on par and losing to a bunch of powered up prisoners, then after he returns to earth he easily beats them even after they got stronger then that after a few months of training
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We should list on the profiles Goku at the start of Moro arc in ssj was fighting off the powered up prisoners and after training with Merus he could one shot even stronger prisoner's meaning he became over 500 times stronger
 
0183-010.png


Only four blasts and four explosions.
 
Quick question, does Belmond's statement implies that when fighters fight against an opponent together their power is increased more than their combined strength?
 
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