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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

Some part of me finds it hilarious that Base Goku apparently never even reached his Super Saiyan power on Namek throughout all of Z but by the end of the Black Saga, Super Saiyan 1 Vegeta would match Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta (pre-HTC) and by the Super Hero saga Base Goku could probably go toe to toe with SSB Goku in the Broly movie.

Like damn. Going from not even breaching a 50x gap to casually breaching multi-million times gaps multiple times? Yeesh.
 
Fun fact Goku in the start of the Moro arc was fighting on par and losing to a bunch of powered up prisoners, then after he returns to earth he easily beats them even after they got stronger then that after a few months of training
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Some part of me finds it hilarious that Base Goku apparently never even reached his Super Saiyan power on Namek throughout all of Z but by the end of the Black Saga, Super Saiyan 1 Vegeta would match Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta (pre-HTC) and by the Super Hero saga Base Goku could probably go toe to toe with SSB Goku in the Broly movie.

Like damn. Going from not even breaching a 50x gap to casually breaching multi-million times gaps multiple times? Yeesh.
Click to expand...
Piccolo couldn't even breach the Grade 4 gap in 7 years

then he miraculously surpassed SSG and even Post-U6 SS2 in less than 2 years

now he's Broly Saga SSB level in base form
 
Sir_Marvulous said:
Piccolo couldn't even breach the Grade 4 gap in 7 years but now he's Broly Saga SSB level in base form
Click to expand...
I'm going off primarily the manga here but Goku is 2-C in all forms by RoF. Manga Frost matches Base Goku completely in his Assault form and we then see Piccolo give True Form Frost serious trouble.

So Piccolo went from not even breaching Grade 4 gap in 7 years to suddenly leaping from that to 2-C in just a little over a year. Boy, that potential sure would have come in handy with Golden Freeza, or Beerus or hell if Piccolo had that potential he could have finished the Buu Saga instantly.

Weirdly enough it seems like Piccolo went from being close to Ultimate Gohan in power in base form during the Moro Saga to being somewhat inferior with his own Ultimate state when compared to Ultimate Gohan. And that's when he kept training for two more years while Gohan slacked off a lot.

Obviously you explain that as just bad writing or plot convenience but I really gotta wonder what in-universe reason there could be for these leaps. To clarify:
  • Piccolo went from not even Grade 4 Super Saiyan-level to 2-C in a little over a year
  • Then went from not even SS1 Goku-level to nearly Ultimate Gohan (CSSB)-level in about a year and a half
  • Then two years training later even his Ultimate state is depicted as inferior to Ultimate Gohan who was slacking off since Moro
You can see Goku, Vegeta, Freeza all growing over the series. You can assume the Elder Kai's ritual somehow helps Gohan's power always grow or remain at its full potential but I don't see the justification for Piccolo's wonky growth rate.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
I'm going off primarily the manga here but Goku is 2-C in all forms by RoF. Manga Frost matches Base Goku completely in his Assault form and we then see Piccolo give True Form Frost serious trouble.

So Piccolo went from not even breaching Grade 4 gap in 7 years to suddenly leaping from that to 2-C in just a little over a year. Boy, that potential sure would have come in handy with Golden Freeza, or Beerus or hell if Piccolo had that potential he could have finished the Buu Saga instantly.

Weirdly enough it seems like Piccolo went from being close to Ultimate Gohan in power in base form during the Moro Saga to being somewhat inferior with his own Ultimate state when compared to Ultimate Gohan. And that's when he kept training for two more years while Gohan slacked off a lot.

Obviously you explain that as just bad writing or plot convenience but I really gotta wonder what in-universe reason there could be for these leaps. To clarify:
  • Piccolo went from not even Grade 4 Super Saiyan-level to 2-C in a little over a year
  • Then went from not even SS1 Goku-level to nearly Ultimate Gohan (CSSB)-level in about a year and a half
  • Then two years training later even his Ultimate state is depicted as inferior to Ultimate Gohan who was slacking off since Moro
You can see Goku, Vegeta, Freeza all growing over the series. You can assume the Elder Kai's ritual somehow helps Gohan's power always grow or remain at its full potential but I don't see the justification for Piccolo's wonky growth rate.
Click to expand...
The best possible explanation is Nameless Namekian potential but that doesn't even begin to explain away all of the Cell Saga, Buu Saga, and Battle of Gods
 
CryoTheMayo said:
I'm going off primarily the manga here but Goku is 2-C in all forms by RoF. Manga Frost matches Base Goku completely in his Assault form and we then see Piccolo give True Form Frost serious trouble.

So Piccolo went from not even breaching Grade 4 gap in 7 years to suddenly leaping from that to 2-C in just a little over a year. Boy, that potential sure would have come in handy with Golden Freeza, or Beerus or hell if Piccolo had that potential he could have finished the Buu Saga instantly.

Weirdly enough it seems like Piccolo went from being close to Ultimate Gohan in power in base form during the Moro Saga to being somewhat inferior with his own Ultimate state when compared to Ultimate Gohan. And that's when he kept training for two more years while Gohan slacked off a lot.

Obviously you explain that as just bad writing or plot convenience but I really gotta wonder what in-universe reason there could be for these leaps. To clarify:
  • Piccolo went from not even Grade 4 Super Saiyan-level to 2-C in a little over a year
  • Then went from not even SS1 Goku-level to nearly Ultimate Gohan (CSSB)-level in about a year and a half
  • Then two years training later even his Ultimate state is depicted as inferior to Ultimate Gohan who was slacking off since Moro
You can see Goku, Vegeta, Freeza all growing over the series. You can assume the Elder Kai's ritual somehow helps Gohan's power always grow or remain at its full potential but I don't see the justification for Piccolo's wonky growth rate.
Click to expand...
The funniest part is the fact the whole of DBS starts with the premise that Beerus cannot be rivaled by anyone (still can't, actually), he needs to find a specific fighter of prophecy.

When in actuality had he arrived a year later, Picccolo, Gohan, etc. would've been ready to be fought. In FACT, Beerus could've legit tested himself against Jiren, or Hit, or literally anyone of note within the Multiverse. By the logic of the series itself, he could simply have just looked a little harder and would've found a perfect challenger to test himself against.
 
RedReaper said:
When in actuality had he arrived a year later, Picccolo, Gohan, etc. would've been ready to be fought. In FACT, Beerus could've legit tested himself against Jiren, or Hit, or literally anyone of note within the Multiverse.
Click to expand...
He probably wanted a challenge from his own universe
 
RedReaper said:
The funniest part is the fact the whole of DBS starts with the premise that Beerus cannot be rivaled by anyone (still can't, actually), he needs to find a specific fighter of prophecy.

When in actuality had he arrived a year later, Picccolo, Gohan, etc. would've been ready to be fought. In FACT, Beerus could've legit tested himself against Jiren, or Hit, or literally anyone of note within the Multiverse. By the logic of the series itself, he could simply have just looked a little harder and would've found a perfect challenger to test himself against.
Click to expand...
I think the prophecy doesn't take only BoG Goku into account, like, even if he fought other characters that are stronger than BoG Goku, they wouldn't evolve to the level that Goku will in the future
 
ChronoULT said:
I think the prophecy doesn't take only BoG Goku into account, like, even if he fought other characters that are stronger than BoG Goku, they wouldn't evolve to the level that Goku will in the future
Click to expand...
Sure, but the only reason Beerus cared is because he DIDN'T have that challenge.

Like obviously we know by the end Goku and Vegeta will catch up to that goal

But the NARRATIVE reason Beerus wanted to fight Goku is because of the fact he had not faced a warrior worthy of his power, and this doesn't make sense when said warriors exist at a vastly higher level than Goku—Who in reality as a SSG made him use at this point such a small fraction of his power that the fact it impressed him to begin with—means that had he met any one of these individuals beforehand he WOULDN'T care.
 
Last edited:
RedReaper said:
Sure, but the only reason Beerus cared is because he DIDN'T have that challenge.

Like obviously we know by the end Goku and Vegeta will catch up to that goal

But the NARRATIVE reason Beerus wanted to fight Goku is because of the fact he had not faced a warrior worthy of his power, and this doesn't make sense when said warriors exist at a vastly higher level than Goku-Who in reality as a SSG made him use at this point such a small fraction of his power that the fact it impressed him to begin with means that had he met any one of these individuals beforehand he WOULDN'T care.
Click to expand...
imo that entire narrative doesn't even make sense by the time of RoF. If Beerus wanted such a legendary challenge he could have taken Freeza to his planet and had him forcibly trained (like Tagoma in the anime) until he was a worthy opponent.

You could argue Beerus is just interested in the 'potential' of Super Saiyan God but given Freeza surpassed even Ultra Instinct and Ego with a grand total of...11 and a half years of training, I would say that comes off as bizarre.

It feels to me like the only reason Beerus would be interested in Goku (and Vegeta) at this point is simply because he likes them as people.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
imo that entire narrative doesn't even make sense by the time of RoF. If Beerus wanted such a legendary challenge he could have taken Freeza to his planet and had him forcibly trained (like Tagoma in the anime) until he was a worthy opponent.

You could argue Beerus is just interested in the 'potential' of Super Saiyan God but given Freeza surpassed even Ultra Instinct and Ego with a grand total of...11 and a half years of training, I would say that comes off as bizarre.

It feels to me like the only reason Beerus would be interested in Goku (and Vegeta) at this point is simply because he likes them as people.
Click to expand...
Yeah. Mind you, narratively I'm surprised Goku impressed him at all. Like, Beerus is STILL stronger than Goku's at the moment (in Superhero) and Goku has gotten so much stronger than BOG by what is an unquaniftiably high degree in just his base form, before you apply the multiple multipliers in his transformations and techniques.

Like, the implication is Beerus for the first time in millenia used...what, .000000000000000000000000000000000000000002% of his power against someone not a GoD? THIS impressed him? How?
 
RedReaper said:
Yeah. Mind you, narratively I'm surprised Goku impressed him at all. Like, Beerus is STILL stronger than Goku's at the moment (in Superhero) and Goku has gotten so much stronger than BOG by what is an unquaniftiably high degree in just his base form, before you apply the multiple multipliers in his transformations and techniques.

Like, the implication is Beerus for the first time in millenia used...what, .000000000000000000000000000000000000000002% of his power against someone not a GoD? THIS impressed him? How?
Click to expand...
Complete Headcanon, but I like to imagine it's more Goku's character and growth that impressed him. Beerus just wanted to end Goku when it looked like he wouldn't really put up more of a fight beyond the initial god state, but he became interested as Goku kept getting stronger.

But that's just a theory... a game theory
 
I mean, from an objective level Goku is obviously the best rival for him because he will constantly grow in power as time passes, growing into the domain of the Gods—For example, had he fought Jiren, even if he had lost (which, uh, he wouldn’t), Beerus wouldn’t really have to do much to grow in strength to exceed Jiren’s level—And this is assuming Beerus’ abilities wouldn’t give him the benefit despite Jiren’s “superior power,” (and ignoring Beerus is his superior anyway).

Whereas Goku would constantly grow at a hyper accelerated rate—The best example being the ToP itself, or just his development from the ToP to Moro when it comes to his progression with UI. So it’s not like Goku is a bad partner or anything—It’s just the very plot for BoG relies on him being impressed and using a “decent” amount of power compared to what he had experienced for hundreds of millions of years.

When in reality he shouldn’t have been impressed and could’ve gotten the battle he craved in the universes over, or just woke up when Moro was wreaking havoc since he’s up there too (which he should’ve done to begin with, as it literally is his job). Mind you, Moro implies that tons of beings were as powerful as SSG and SSB Goku/Vegeta in “his Era,” so I have no ******* clue how Beerus was lacking challenge to begin with.
 
RedReaper said:
Yeah. Mind you, narratively I'm surprised Goku impressed him at all. Like, Beerus is STILL stronger than Goku's at the moment (in Superhero) and Goku has gotten so much stronger than BOG by what is an unquaniftiably high degree in just his base form, before you apply the multiple multipliers in his transformations and techniques.

Like, the implication is Beerus for the first time in millenia used...what, .000000000000000000000000000000000000000002% of his power against someone not a GoD? THIS impressed him? How?
Click to expand...
Goten went from like Cell Jr. level to Moro Saga CSSB-level in around two years of just sparring with Trunks. And that's when he couldn't train for half a year. This makes me laugh as much as it horrifies me.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Goten went from like Cell Jr. level to Moro Saga CSSB-level in around two years of just sparring with Trunks. And that's when he couldn't train for half a year. This makes me laugh as much as it horrifies me.
Click to expand...
Conversations in Dragon Ball if they acknowledged the power creep:

“Wow son, you’re stronger than when I fought Beerus! What’d you do for training?”

“Uh, I went to school. Slacked off. Sparred a little. Played hero for like, two days and—Well, I haven’t trained in half a year, actually.”

“…”
 
RedReaper said:
Conversations in Dragon Ball if they acknowledged the power creep:

“Wow son, you’re stronger than when I fought Beerus! What’d you do for training?”

“Uh, I went to school. Slacked off. Sparred a little. Played hero for like, two days and—Well, I haven’t trained in half a year, actually.”

“…”
Click to expand...
I trained my gaming skills
 
RedReaper said:
Conversations in Dragon Ball if they acknowledged the power creep:

“Wow son, you’re stronger than when I fought Beerus! What’d you do for training?”

“Uh, I went to school. Slacked off. Sparred a little. Played hero for like, two days and—Well, I haven’t trained in half a year, actually.”

“…”
Click to expand...
Gamers undergo extreme training....and are the most discriminated against minority group in existence...they undergo so much pain and suffering that a Half-Saiyan gamer like Goten gets the largest Zenkai boosts imaginable...heh it really doesn't surprise me he would grow so strong so fast. You non-gamers (such as w*men) just don't understand a gamer's true power...

341.jpg
 
The DBS Manga Goku vs Pre-Crisis Superman thread is ongoing with 4 votes for Goku and 3 votes for Superman. I'm losing interest in arguing because it doesn't feel like the Superman side cites any evidence and his profile doesn't support much. Hard to debate when one side provides little information.

If anyone is interested it would be great if they could take a look at the thread, since I might not be posting in it anymore.
 
According to the El Manga Legendario, Vegeta could not even calculate the increase in strength that Zarbon received after transforming. Is this enough for his transformation to scale above Kaio-ken x4, or is that against the Multipliers rules?
 
StekFence said:
I think if beerus just takes like a decade long nap, he would wake up to be weaker then base goten
Click to expand...
If Goten had trained for that half of a year he would have one shot Cell Max and made Black Freeza run away to his Time Chamber to train for at least 20 years.

Nullflowerblush said:
According to the El Manga Legendario, Vegeta could not even calculate the increase in strength that Zarbon received after transforming. Is this enough for his transformation to scale above Kaio-ken x4, or is that against the Multipliers rules?
Click to expand...
Vegeta is just that bad at math

Nullflowerblush said:
WAIT
10X????
THEY WERE LIKE COMPARING IT TO GREAT APE
Click to expand...
10x Multiplier for Zarbon's transformation? Damn.
 
Patch notes released.
New wincon against Satoru Gojo: if the entirety of the spatial dimension is affected, Satoru and the Limitless are affected, too.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Some part of me finds it hilarious that Base Goku apparently never even reached his Super Saiyan power on Namek throughout all of Z but by the end of the Black Saga, Super Saiyan 1 Vegeta would match Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta (pre-HTC) and by the Super Hero saga Base Goku could probably go toe to toe with SSB Goku in the Broly movie.

Like damn. Going from not even breaching a 50x gap to casually breaching multi-million times gaps multiple times? Yeesh.
Click to expand...
Huh? Wait so are you referring to like, some inconsistent statement, the scaling on the wiki, or are you actually saying that as a fact? Because there is like, a veritable mountain of evidence suggesting base Goku by the Buu Saga would humiliate and bully his Namek Saga SSJ self.
 
RinneItachi said:
Huh? Wait so are you referring to like, some inconsistent statement, the scaling on the wiki, or are you actually saying that as a fact? Because there is like, a veritable mountain of evidence suggesting base Goku by the Buu Saga would humiliate and bully his Namek Saga SSJ self.
Click to expand...
Beerus being a nutjob.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Beerus being a nutjob.
Click to expand...
That's what I was assuming.

The most likely explanation is that Goku was just suppressed and, while Beerus could probably tell that he was suppressed, he couldn't tell how much. But it's kind of contradicted by him going like "Oh now it makes sense" when Goku goes Super Saiyan, implying that Goku's Super Saiyan power was the same level, even though everything in the entire franchise goes against the idea and makes it laughably stupid.
 
RinneItachi said:
That's what I was assuming.

The most likely explanation is that Goku was just suppressed and, while Beerus could probably tell that he was suppressed, he couldn't tell how much. But it's kind of contradicted by him going like "Oh now it makes sense" when Goku goes Super Saiyan, implying that Goku's Super Saiyan power was the same level, even though everything in the entire franchise goes against the idea and makes it laughably stupid.
Click to expand...
As we were discussing, powerscaling is pretty ridiculous in Dragon Ball. Again, Beerus claims Goku couldn't beat Freeza after the Buu Saga in his base form but then Goku grows hundreds of millions of times stronger over the course of Super.

The point is that it doesn't make much sense at all. It's silly.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Patch notes released.
New wincon against Satoru Gojo: if the entirety of the spatial dimension is affected, Satoru and the Limitless are affected, too.
Click to expand...
So, is there any reason Goku (and maybe any character scaling to or above him in BoG) couldn't kill Gojo with shockwaves?
 
CryoTheMayo said:
As we were discussing, powerscaling is pretty ridiculous in Dragon Ball. Again, Beerus claims Goku couldn't beat Freeza after the Buu Saga in his base form but then Goku grows hundreds of millions of times stronger over the course of Super.

The point is that it doesn't make much sense at all. It's silly.
Click to expand...
Well it's just one inconsistent and irrelevant statement. Beerus was just wrong. I agree anyways.
 
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