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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

GT Scaling Rough Draft (Gave Golden Oozaru a 10x multiplier on SSJ3)

1 = 3 Universe 2-C for Toei reasonings

SSJ1 Goku: 1

Super Boo: 1

SSJ3 Gotenks: 1

Ultimate Gohan: 1

SSJ2 Vegeta: 10

SSJ2 Goku: 10

Tapion: 10

Hirudegarn: 10

Buuhan: 10

Kid Buu: 10

SSJ3 Goku: 10

Base Vegito: 10

General Rildo: 10

Super Janemba: 10

Super Gogeta: 500

Super Vegito: 500

Hyper Meta Rildo: 500

Meta Rildo: 5,000

Baby: 5,000

GT SSJ Goten: 5,000

GT Base Gohan: 5,000

GT SSJ Gohan: 250,000

Base GT Goku: 250,000

GT SSJ Goku: 12,500,000

GT SSJ2 Goku: 125,000,000

GT SSJ3 Goku: 125,000,000

Baby Vegeta: 125,000,000

Strongest Form 1 Baby Vegeta: 1,250,000,000

Majuub: 1,250,000,000

Strongest Form 2 Baby Vegeta: 1,250,000,000

Golden Oozaru: 1,250,000,000

SSJ4 Goku: 1,250,000,000

Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta: 12,500,000,000

FPSSJ4 Goku: 12,500,000,000

——————————————————

Majuub: 1,250,000,000

Super 17: 1,250,000,000

GT SSJ Goku: 1,250,000,000

SSJ4 Goku: 62,500,000,000,000

Super 17 after absorbing more ki: 62,500,000,000,000

——————————————————

SSJ4 Goku: 62,500,000,000,000

Nouva and Eis Shenron: 62,500,000,000,000

SSJ4 Goku: 62,500,000,000,000

Syn Shenron: 625,000,000,000,000

Super FPSSJ4 Goku: 625,000,000,000,000


Black Smoke Shenron: 6,250,000,000,000,000

Omega Shenron: 6,250,000,000,000,000

SSJ4 Gogeta: 312,500,000,000,000,000

Universal Spirit Bomb: 312,500,000,000,000,000

—————————————————————

End of GT Goku: 12,500,000,000
SSJ: 625,000,000,000
SSJ2/3: 6,250,000,000,000
SSJ4: 62,500,000,000,000
Super FPSSJ4 Goku: 625,000,000,000,000
 
RedReaper said:
I’m telling you what Executor claimed. If you want sources/proof you’ll have to ask him.
Click to expand...
What you said is not what he said tho?

RedReaper said:
Because trying to figure out the level of influence Toriyama had with each Toei work is near impossible.
Click to expand...
your point being? We apply of toei what we know was made by Akira, if that means most of it will not because we don't know how much hand he had so be it, accuracy takes priority in this site

RedReaper said:
Sure, but the point remains all the same.
Click to expand...
It absolutely doesn't, if it was the true story it wouldn't have any contradictions at all

RedReaper said:
I’m just pointing out how interviews should still apply to Toei.
Click to expand...
Not when they are made for one continuity that isn't the toei one
 
AwkguyDB said:
GT Scaling Rough Draft (Gave Golden Oozaru a 10x multiplier on SSJ3)

1 = 3 Universe 2-C for Toei reasonings

SSJ1 Goku: 1

Super Boo: 1

SSJ3 Gotenks: 1

Ultimate Gohan: 1

SSJ2 Vegeta: 10

SSJ2 Goku: 10

Tapion: 10

Hirudegarn: 10

Buuhan: 10

Kid Buu: 10

SSJ3 Goku: 10

Base Vegito: 10

General Rildo: 10

Super Janemba: 10

Super Gogeta: 500

Super Vegito: 500

Hyper Meta Rildo: 500

Meta Rildo: 5,000

Baby: 5,000

GT SSJ Goten: 5,000

GT Base Gohan: 5,000

GT SSJ Gohan: 250,000

Base GT Goku: 250,000

GT SSJ Goku: 12,500,000

GT SSJ2 Goku: 125,000,000

GT SSJ3 Goku: 125,000,000

Baby Vegeta: 125,000,000

Strongest Form 1 Baby Vegeta: 1,250,000,000

Majuub: 1,250,000,000

Strongest Form 2 Baby Vegeta: 1,250,000,000

Golden Oozaru: 1,250,000,000

SSJ4 Goku: 1,250,000,000

Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta: 12,500,000,000

FPSSJ4 Goku: 12,500,000,000

——————————————————

Majuub: 1,250,000,000

Super 17: 1,250,000,000

GT SSJ Goku: 1,250,000,000

SSJ4 Goku: 62,500,000,000,000

Super 17 after absorbing more ki: 62,500,000,000,000

——————————————————

SSJ4 Goku: 62,500,000,000,000

Nouva and Eis Shenron: 62,500,000,000,000

SSJ4 Goku: 62,500,000,000,000

Syn Shenron: 625,000,000,000,000

Super FPSSJ4 Goku: 625,000,000,000,000


Black Smoke Shenron: 6,250,000,000,000,000

Omega Shenron: 6,250,000,000,000,000

SSJ4 Gogeta: 312,500,000,000,000,000

Universal Spirit Bomb: 312,500,000,000,000,000

—————————————————————

End of GT Goku: 12,500,000,000
SSJ: 625,000,000,000
SSJ2/3: 6,250,000,000,000
SSJ4: 62,500,000,000,000
Super FPSSJ4 Goku: 625,000,000,000,000
Click to expand...
You should put the justification in the bottom if you make a blog for it just like how the current one does, also, could you wait for my recalc of the pikkon feat for you to make one for speed as well?

Good job btw
 
MeiouHades said:
Also this is important. How do we even figure out “how much” influence is enough for it to be considered valid. If, for example, we decided that just passing notes and rough drafts isnt enough, then DBS anime and manga are both noncanon by this standard.
Click to expand...
No since both of then are officialy the continuation of the db manga. They are canon by default
 
MeiouHades said:
Also this is important. How do we even figure out “how much” influence is enough for it to be considered valid. If, for example, we decided that just passing notes and rough drafts isnt enough, then DBS anime and manga are both noncanon by this standard.
Click to expand...
Wow, you creating a whole new problem, that don't even need exist, since the solution is very simple.
They are both canon, there's zero need to evaluate how much Toriyama have influence something about super.
 
omegabronic said:
What you said is not what he said tho?
Click to expand...
That is what he said, what?

Him mentioning Piccolo’s weakness: The Daizenshuu often has two profiles, one for Toriyama original content, and another for anime-only content. Some stuff that is depicted only in anime, but is mentioned without that mark seems to be that it was made by Toriyama or at least broadly accepted as "main content". The stuff about Piccolo's weakness for example, only appears in anime but is listed without the "anime" marker because it was a setting made by Toriyama.

The Toei Cosmology: Kinda. The cosmology was first made by Toriyama for the anime as Toei needed more content for the filler sections in the Otherworld sections, that is when Toriyama came up with various locations and places for the Otherworld and the lore for the Kais. After he did that, he made mentions of those additions in the manga. When the Daizenshuu was released, he decided to update that with the new locations he made during the Buu Arc.

To Designing Antags: He sure had. Pikkon we know that it got a design by Toriyama, but we can't be sure if his backstory was also by Toriyama. Take most of the movie villains, a lot of them had designs by Toriyama himself, but he seemed to not have anything about the story, in fact, he even forgot that he had designed Broly and that became a joke in the fanbase.

Those are 5 different links, with 5 different posts, with different info he’s stating to corroborate his point (but he offered very little links.)

And yes, the point does remain.

Over EAST, they consider anything made by Toriyama directly. Literally as stated in interview. “We could consider this the true story.”

THEY consider it official.

Which was the point.

You can’t really sidestep it. The point remains regardless of what you claim because this is what was said in interview.
 
RedReaper said:
That is what he said, what?

Him mentioning Piccolo’s weakness: The Daizenshuu often has two profiles, one for Toriyama original content, and another for anime-only content. Some stuff that is depicted only in anime, but is mentioned without that mark seems to be that it was made by Toriyama or at least broadly accepted as "main content". The stuff about Piccolo's weakness for example, only appears in anime but is listed without the "anime" marker because it was a setting made by Toriyama.

The Toei Cosmology: Kinda. The cosmology was first made by Toriyama for the anime as Toei needed more content for the filler sections in the Otherworld sections, that is when Toriyama came up with various locations and places for the Otherworld and the lore for the Kais. After he did that, he made mentions of those additions in the manga. When the Daizenshuu was released, he decided to update that with the new locations he made during the Buu Arc.

To Designing Antags: He sure had. Pikkon we know that it got a design by Toriyama, but we can't be sure if his backstory was also by Toriyama. Take most of the movie villains, a lot of them had designs by Toriyama himself, but he seemed to not have anything about the story, in fact, he even forgot that he had designed Broly and that became a joke in the fanbase.

Those are 5 different links, with 5 different posts, with different info he’s stating to corroborate his point (but he offered very little links.)

And yes, the point does remain.
Click to expand...
No it does not he mentioned there is nuanced to it, with him saying that some stuff like the backstories/Story at all were not made by him, he is sayinf exactly what i am to you right now

RedReaper said:
Over EAST, they consider anything made by Toriyama directly. Literally as stated in interview. “We could consider this the true story.”

THEY consider it official.
Click to expand...
official = anything published officially with permision of the guys who own to rights, DB evolution is as official as the anime for example, besides their statement would be completely wrong given the contradiction i presented and that you agreed

RedReaper said:
You can’t really sidestep it. The point remains regardless of what you claim because this is what was said in interview.
Click to expand...
Not really when the person you sre getting the point from is saying the same thing as i am saying
 
omegabronic said:
You should put the justification in the bottom if you make a blog for it just like how the current one does, also, could you wait for my recalc of the pikkon feat for you to make one for speed as well?

Good job btw
Click to expand...
thanks and sure this one is solely focused on AP

Relevant take aways:
Golden Oozaru should be the combination of Goku's full super saiyan power stacked on Oozaru due to the fact that its noted to being far stronger than SS3 by Baby so that explains the 10x times there and also another 10x for FPSSJ4 because of Baby's Oozaru

Rildo's Meta transformation gets 10x for being able to compare to Goku's brief SSJ2 transformation

each characters number is determined by their peak output of that arc. So Goku's Base being stronger than Meta Rildo is based on him boxing up Gohan and Goten later in the arc.

Baby's Strongest Form 1 and 2 are confirmed to be SSJ2 and 3 respectively by several guides if I am not mistaken

SSJ4 conservatively is calc'd at a 5000x on base multiplier scaling to Golden Oozaru.

Syn to Omega Shenron is stated somewhere to be a 10x boost as well

SSJ4 Gogeta is simply how we gauge his SSJB counterpart (peak strength of strongest individual fusee x peak form multiplier) so Strength of SSJ4 Goku of the ShadDrag saga x 5000

Universal Spirit Bomb I just scaled to Gogeta
 
AwkguyDB said:
thanks and sure this one is solely focused on AP

Relevant take aways:
Golden Oozaru should be the combination of Goku's full super saiyan power stacked on Oozaru due to the fact that its noted to being far stronger than SS3 by Baby so that explains the 10x times there and also another 10x for FPSSJ4 because of Baby's Oozaru

Rildo's Meta transformation gets 10x for being able to compare to Goku's brief SSJ2 transformation

each characters number is determined by their peak output of that arc. So Goku's Base being stronger than Meta Rildo is based on him boxing up Gohan and Goten later in the arc.

Baby's Strongest Form 1 and 2 are confirmed to be SSJ2 and 3 respectively by several guides if I am not mistaken

SSJ4 conservatively is calc'd at a 5000x on base multiplier scaling to Golden Oozaru.

Syn to Omega Shenron is stated somewhere to be a 10x boost as well

SSJ4 Gogeta is simply how we gauge his SSJB counterpart (peak strength of strongest individual fusee x peak form multiplier) so Strength of SSJ4 Goku of the ShadDrag saga x 5000

Universal Spirit Bomb I just scaled to Gogeta
Click to expand...
You should scale base goku post karma ball to gogeta, since that is how we scale him here currently
 
The new chapter has some statements for scaling. When Trunks hears that Piccolo is fighting androids made by Hedo, he states he would be in 'big trouble' if he's alone, based on the past androids he fought by Hedo. How well Trunks understands Piccolo's power is uncertain but I doubt he's totally ignorant about numerous fighters being at 2-C levels of strength. That may scale to the Dinodroid at least.

However, maybe Goten and Trunks are out of shape like Gohan? Gohan was able to sense Orange Piccolo's Ki, which might toss out the idea of him having God Ki. Unless Gohan also has God Ki somehow. Either way if the hybrid duo keep up with Cell Max in the next chapter when they were grounded for a year and seem to be out of shape, that could backscale to the Dinodroid and their power in the Prequel arc being greater.

This could just be them being cocky kids, but Goten and Trunks also tell Gohan and Piccolo to take a break and that they can take Cell Max for them when they know Piccolo powered up further with his Orange form and that the Gammas are as strong or stronger than the Dinodroid and are struggling with Cell Max.

Besides that scaling I didn't notice anything new or interesting in the chapter. Depending on the next chapter we could have 2-C Goten/Trunks solidified.
 
AwkguyDB said:
GT Scaling Rough Draft (Gave Golden Oozaru a 10x multiplier on SSJ3)

1 = 3 Universe 2-C for Toei reasonings

SSJ1 Goku: 1

Super Boo: 1

SSJ3 Gotenks: 1

Ultimate Gohan: 1

SSJ2 Vegeta: 10

SSJ2 Goku: 10

Tapion: 10

Hirudegarn: 10

Buuhan: 10

Kid Buu: 10

SSJ3 Goku: 10

Base Vegito: 10

General Rildo: 10

Super Janemba: 10

Super Gogeta: 500

Super Vegito: 500

Hyper Meta Rildo: 500

Meta Rildo: 5,000

Baby: 5,000

GT SSJ Goten: 5,000

GT Base Gohan: 5,000

GT SSJ Gohan: 250,000

Base GT Goku: 250,000

GT SSJ Goku: 12,500,000

GT SSJ2 Goku: 125,000,000

GT SSJ3 Goku: 125,000,000

Baby Vegeta: 125,000,000

Strongest Form 1 Baby Vegeta: 1,250,000,000

Majuub: 1,250,000,000

Strongest Form 2 Baby Vegeta: 1,250,000,000

Golden Oozaru: 1,250,000,000

SSJ4 Goku: 1,250,000,000

Golden Oozaru Baby Vegeta: 12,500,000,000

FPSSJ4 Goku: 12,500,000,000

——————————————————

Majuub: 1,250,000,000

Super 17: 1,250,000,000

GT SSJ Goku: 1,250,000,000

SSJ4 Goku: 62,500,000,000,000

Super 17 after absorbing more ki: 62,500,000,000,000

——————————————————

SSJ4 Goku: 62,500,000,000,000

Nouva and Eis Shenron: 62,500,000,000,000

SSJ4 Goku: 62,500,000,000,000

Syn Shenron: 625,000,000,000,000

Super FPSSJ4 Goku: 625,000,000,000,000


Black Smoke Shenron: 6,250,000,000,000,000

Omega Shenron: 6,250,000,000,000,000

SSJ4 Gogeta: 312,500,000,000,000,000

Universal Spirit Bomb: 312,500,000,000,000,000

—————————————————————

End of GT Goku: 12,500,000,000
SSJ: 625,000,000,000
SSJ2/3: 6,250,000,000,000
SSJ4: 62,500,000,000,000
Super FPSSJ4 Goku: 625,000,000,000,000
Click to expand...
Please don't make a blog just yet, I see some room from improvement (stuff like SFPSSJ4 Goku scaling to Omega, and not Syn/EoGT Goku scaling above Omegaa in base) and i'm planning on doing a full rewatch of GT to get everything more ironed out/see if anything can be added
 
Nullflowerblush said:
The Frieza calculation was accepted.
Click to expand...
Damage3245 said:
Yeah, just a tier.


Not a huge amount probably.
Click to expand...


For the record, I call bullshit on the use of this new Freeza calc specifically to downgrade when the calc from Dragon Ball Super Ep 19 already exists and has been accepted for 2 years
vsbattles.fandom.com

Dragon Ball Z: Frieza destroys Planet Vegeta Re-calced

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

There are no valid reasons to do so, especially since in your calc you had to go through rescaling and overlaying shenanigans, and as KLOL explained previously the timeframe of the feat can not be reliable
Screenshot_100.png
 
pineappleman said:
For the record, I call bullshit on the use of this new Freeza calc specifically to downgrade when the calc from Dragon Ball Super Ep 19 already exists and has been accepted for 2 years
Click to expand...
The new calc won't automatically supercede the old one. There will be a CRT at some point to cover it (or more fittingly, a Calc Group thread). So the issue can be resolved then instead of hashing it out now.
 
TiltedFN said:
yall just downgrading to downgrade atp
Click to expand...
Considering Null is responsible for bringing new multipliers to the verse that would upgrade several characters, accusations of "downgrading to downgrade" are ridiculous.
 
TheGodOfICE777 said:
The scouter calc literally doesn’t show the entire thing you’ll get a more accurate result from the actual feat being depicted as KLOL said
Click to expand...
Like I said, it'll be hashed out later. I've no interest in getting into it right now.
 
Here's the revised AP chain
First Form Frieza casually destroyed planet Vegeta. >7.44 Ronnatons or 5-A

Suppressed Second Form Frieza curbstomped the Z-Fighters, who could have beat his First Form. >7.44 Ronnatons

Weighted Piccolo outclassed Second Form Frieza. >7.44 Ronnatons

Second Form Frieza at full power curbstomped Weighted Piccolo. >7.44 Ronnatons

Unweighted Piccolo is portrayed as superior to him. >7.44 Ronnatons

Third Form Frieza outclassed Piccolo massively. >7.44 Ronnatons

Vegeta was way weaker than Final Form Frieza, who used way more power than his other forms, but stood the greatest chance at winning and reacted to his Death Beams. >7.44 Ronnatons

Suppressed Final Form Frieza was greatly superior. >7.44 Ronnatons

Goku is comparable to Frieza, and powered up at least once. >7.44 Ronnatons

Goku is capable of multiplying his power 20-fold. >148.8 Ronnatons or High 5-A

Super Saiyan multiplies his speed and power 50-fold, which is substantiated by Frieza at less than half power being comparable to a Kaioken x20 Kamehameha. >372 Ronnatons

Future Gohan is leagues stronger than when he harmed Second Form Frieza. >7.44 Ronnatons

Super Saiyan is a 50x multiplier. >372 Ronnatons

Future 17 used less than half his power to beat Super Saiyan Future Gohan. >744 Ronnatons

Future Cell is stronger than the Future Androids. >744 Ronnatons

Cell absorbed 15,000 humans from an entire city. >744 Ronnatons

Weighted Piccolo is superior to Cell. >744 Ronnatons

17 is comparable to Unweighted Piccolo. >744 Ronnatons

Powered up Cell and Android 16 are far superior to both of them. >744 Ronnatons

Semi-Perfect Cell absorbed 17 is far superior to 16. >1.48 Quettatons

Post-RoSAT Future Trunks is powerful enough to halt Semi-Perfect Cell in his steps. >1.48 Quettatons

Super Trunks is 10x as powerful as he was in Grade 2. >14.8 Quettatons or Low 4-C

Although inferior, Perfect Cell manages to inflict damage upon Super Trunks, who is stalling for Krillin. <14.8 Quettatons

Cell Juniors possess the same strength and speed as their creator, Cell. <14.8 Quettatons

Piccolo held his own against a Cell Junior. <14.8 Quettatons

Piccolo described Shin's power as being dimensions apart from his. >14.8 Quettatons

Base Buu Saga Gohan is stronger than Shin. >14.8 Quettatons

Cell Saga Gohan is as strong as his Buu Saga counterpart. >14.8 Quettatons

Super Saiyan is a 50x multiplier. >740 Quettatons or 4-C

Cell effortlessly pummels and overpowers Gohan. >740 Quettatons

Cell enters his Grade 3 form. >0.3 Foe or High 4-C

Cell revived more powerful and "more perfect" than ever. >0.3 Foe

With less than half power remaining, Gohan manages to defeat Revived Cell's Kamehameha. >0.6 Foe
Click to expand...
So TL;DR,
Kaioken x20 Goku is where High 5-A starts
Grade 3 Trunks is where Low 4-C starts
Super Saiyan Gohan is where 4-C starts
Grade 3 Cell is where High 4-C starts
Gohan ends up being x37.95 away from Baseline 4-B, so Gotenks and co would be 4-B
 
@pineappleman Well, now you're just being intentionally ridiculous.

I evaluated a calc because it was put up for evalution. Whether the calc is mathematically correct or not has nothing to do with whether or not we end up using it. KLOL's own opinions of the calc are irrelevant to me as I'm judging just the calc itself.

This is hardly what I'd call "backlash". You haven't discredited the original calc; just shown support for another calc.

I "refuse to elaborate" because this is a general discussion thread, not a CRT or a calc group thread. I don't owe you anything.
 
pineappleman said:
For the record, I call bullshit on the use of this new Freeza calc specifically to downgrade when the calc from Dragon Ball Super Ep 19 already exists and has been accepted for 2 years
vsbattles.fandom.com

Dragon Ball Z: Frieza destroys Planet Vegeta Re-calced

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

There are no valid reasons to do so, especially since in your calc you had to go through rescaling and overlaying shenanigans, and as KLOL explained previously the timeframe of the feat can not be reliable
Screenshot_100.png
Click to expand...
I’m glad someone brought this up. Using the reflection of a scouter to pixel scale is already ridiculous (when a much clearer scene exists in EP 19), and now ignoring the fact that the movie scene gives us an inaccurate time frame is even more ridiculous, even though the DBS anime scene works perfectly fine since it’s considered canon to the DB manga. As others have pointed out, it does seem like these downgrade are just for the sake of downgrading because I simply fail to see any other reason for this. And I’d rather a verse get deleted than have it treated unfairly.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
KLOL509 replied to Kulf Boba's calculation stating that the timeframe was impossible to determine because the bulk of the explosion occurred off-screen and there are multiple cuts in-between shots, but every subsequent cut carries over the continuity from the last, like the travelling of shockwaves across space and towards Frieza and the direction of the sparks.

A timeframe of 7 seconds drops the result down to Large Planet level.
Click to expand...
Null did kinda address KLOL
 
MeiouHades said:
As others have pointed out, it does seem like these downgrade are just for the sake of downgrading because I simply fail to see any other reason for this. And I’d rather a verse get deleted than have it treated unfairly.
Click to expand...
This must be a joke.
 
Damage3245 said:
@pineappleman Well, now you're just being intentionally ridiculous.

I evaluated a calc because it was put up for evalution. Whether the calc is mathematically correct or not has nothing to do with whether or not we end up using it.
Click to expand...
Nonsense. The calc IS mathematically correct (mathematics and engineering major here, you can trust my judgment on its mathematical validity). That’s not the issue here. The issue was never about its mathematical validity, the issue is the fact that using this scene is just wrong, it doesn’t give an accurate time frame and pixel scaling using a reflection is already ridiculous enough (for example, depending on what the scouter is made of, the reflection on the glass can be smaller). This is something you should know, and I know you do, you know it very well, and I’m still not surprised you ended up accepting it even though there are obvious issues with it that have nothing to do with mathematics.
Damage3245 said:
KLOL's own opinions of the calc are irrelevant to me as I'm judging just the calc itself.
Click to expand...
It is not. He points out the obvious issue that you conveniently miss hiding under the guise of “I don’t know if it’s mathematically correct”.

Damage3245 said:
I "refuse to elaborate" because this is a general discussion thread, not a CRT or a calc group thread. I don't owe you anything.
Click to expand...
Right, I totally believe that.
 
MeiouHades said:
What’s a bigger joke is how you accepted the calc wearing a blindfold not even questioning the issue Null himself stated that were pointed by KLOL
Click to expand...
What the hell are you talking about? Whatever issue KLOL has is irrelevant to whether the actual maths of the calc is correct.

Accepting a calc as a Calc Group Member is nowhere near the same as saying "This calc can be used on the profiles right away."

There is no good reason why I shouldn't accept the calc. If you don't like it, then deal with it.
 
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