Dragon Ball MWI undoing continuation thread

[LordDestroit10K]

He asking about the kaioshin realm you know the place which is one tenth of the universe if small galaxies are visible then a structure which is 1/10 of a size should be visible to

“can simply be explained by "they are too small to be seen”

Yeah, Kaioshin Realm is to small to be seen

 

[Chariot190]

This thread is about Afterlife low 2-C as well, and it seems that you don’t have any good counter argument about that…

For the anime? Yeah it's "actual showings > statements, sucks".

Yeah, Kaioshin Realm is to small to be seen

Yeah, apparently. And?

 

[Killerdrone123]

In it? At least in the DBS anime. We see a few times panning shots through space, leading to the Kai realm. It evidently, is not, enclosed in its own sphere with the mortal world behind a big ass wall

Idk about the manga tho, dont remember scenes like that

If it is in it then it should be visible since one tenth of a universe is very huge compared to some galaxies we can clearly see

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

After finally catching up with the debate (400+ replies jesus christ), I agree with the Toeiverse has a Universe-sized Afterlife but not the manga’s continuity.

 

[Hasty12345]

If it is in it then it should be visible since one tenth of a universe is very huge compared to some galaxies we can clearly see

nah it's behind the big galaxy

 

[Killerdrone123]

nah it's behind the big galaxy

 

[LordDestroit10K]

After finally catching up with the debate (400+ replies jesus christ), I agree with the Toeiverse has a Universe-sized Afterlife but not the manga’s continuity.

And the reason is?

 

[LordDestroit10K]

nah it's behind the big galaxy

 

[Hasty12345]

After finally catching up with the debate (400+ replies jesus christ), I agree with the Toeiverse has a Universe-sized Afterlife but not the manga’s continuity.

With respect, the manga both depicts the universe as the spinning top and says the otherworld is half the spinning top?

But this is getting confusing

my understanding is that:

Toei is DB anime -DBZ anime + DBZ movies + GT

The primary canon is DB manga + DBS anime

manga canon is DB manga + DBS manga

The only major contentious point here is the DBS anime depicts the universes in such a way that makes the spinning top model incongruent to what's shown on screen, but the manga + guides lack that argument and has guides that support 2-C U7 and the Toei anime has shown the otherworld to be a universe in filler material iirc.

 

[Killerdrone123]

I don't think toei has any contentions regarding its size and cosmological aspects the main topic of discussion here are dbs anime and manga which we have provided scans and arguments for

 

[Chariot190]

If it is in it then it should be visible since one tenth of a universe is very huge compared to some galaxies we can clearly see

Unless the anime, ya know, doing its own thing?

Like man, what do you want me to say "yeah the anime ***** with WotK being secluded or even that big (def aint's suns in the anime so that's one issue), and the multiple pan outs and the literal showing of it, but hey let's ignore that solely due to supplementary material even though the anime is surprisingly consistent about it".

Like what next, we gonna downgrade a bunch of DBZ dudes to 7-C, 6-B and so on because of daizenshuu statements? Evidently not, source material contradicts them. Shit this ain't even a DBZ thing, it's a "any manga ever" thing.

Idk what the issue is anyway, we just split DBS anime and DBS manga anyway, they don't need to adhere to the same model, and coincidentally, all the contradictions, exist only in the anime

I don't think toei has any contentions regarding its size and cosmological aspects the main topic of discussion here are dbs anime and manga which we have provided scans and arguments for

Yeah nah Toei 100% fine, slap me for agree on that.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I don't think toei has any contentions regarding its size and cosmological aspects the main topic of discussion here are dbs anime and manga which we have provided scans and arguments for

People are voting "possibly Universal toei", since the toei is clearly the size of the Universe, there are strange things there, what we are discussing is the DBS manga and anime, but Damage and Maverick appear with similar comments, lol

 

[RedReaper616]

Unless the anime, ya know, doing its own thing?

Like man, what do you want me to say "yeah the anime ***** with WotK being secluded or even that big (def aint's suns in the anime so that's one issue), and the multiple pan outs and the literal showing of it, but hey let's ignore that solely due to supplementary material even though the anime is surprisingly consistent about it".

Like what next, we gonna downgrade a bunch of DBZ dudes to 7-C, 6-B and so on because of daizenshuu statements? Evidently not, source material contradicts them. Shit this ain't even a DBZ thing, it's a "any manga ever" thing.

Idk what the issue is anyway, we just split DBS anime and DBS manga anyway, they don't need to adhere to the same model, and coincidentally, all the contradictions, exist only in the anime

Yeah nah Toei 100% fine, slap me for agree on that.

See, the issue is it’s clearly incorrect/incongruent with the intent of the actual author. The Anime is based on TORIYAMA’S WORK, both from his notes to his cosmology, and they literally just got it wrong. If everyone else but the Anime is saying one thing, (and even the Anime is contradicting itself via official guides), then I think, perhaps, maybe, the work built on the fundamentally pre-existing and pre-established cosmology, drawn by people who are not Toriyama (and thus not as reliable as him as a source), were notably in a horrid time crunch and could not perform their jobs as artists adequately, etc. should be called out for being wrong.

 

[RedReaper616]

Also, yeah, the counter arguments for using this “unabstracted” view of the universe over the model literally don’t work. Either it’s the “unabstracted” view and there’s no other dimensions, (ignoring how WotK is 1/10th the Macrocosm and should be seen, or the fact people have come forward and said there is the Kanji for “half,” indicating size, the Z Buu Saga’s Afterlife statement was likely made with Toriyama’s Official Cosmology info based on Behind the Scenes info we have, etc. Yes, I’m saying “Too Small to be seen” makes no sense because we have info directly telling us it should be visible based on size), or it’s completely invalid and thus the more relevant source would be the literal (outside of scale), unabstracted, penned universe/model by Akira Toriyama, supported by multiple mediums, guides, and his own mouth.

 

[Chariot190]

See, the issue is it’s clearly incorrect/incongruent with the intent of the actual author.

And? Anime is it's own thing.

The Anime is based on TORIYAMA’S WORK, both from his notes to his cosmology, and they literally just got it wrong.

Keyword, based on.
So is all the movies, all the games, and all the other stuff that can't actually fit within the manga's model.

This doesn't change the fact they abide by what they do.

If everyone else but the Anime is saying one thing, (and even the Anime is contradicting itself via official guides),

Guides are only to be used when they don't contradict the source. And, in the anime's case, it IS its source. If the DBS anime contradicts the guides like a dozen times, wel sucks, but guides don't get to be used for it.

then I think, perhaps, maybe, the work built on the fundamentally pre-existing and pre-established cosmology,

Untill they changed it and added a bunch of fuckys here and there.

drawn by people who are not Toriyama (and thus not as reliable as him as a source),

Don't matter. DBS anime is the DBS anime, Toei is Toei, Manga is manga.
The dudes actually making it, are going to be the main source. Just like with anything els, we just treat it as a diff canon. DB ain't special in that regard well it was, but not anymore

were notably in a horrid time crunch and could not perform their jobs as artists adequately, etc. should be called out for being wrong.

This doesn't matter. Just because some fights had dog animation, doesn't mean the few actually decently animated space shots aren't what they intended.
Actual guesswork, by this logic, why use anything in the anime? Maybe every feat is wrong too?

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Also, yeah, the counter arguments for using this “unabstracted” view of the universe over the model literally don’t work. Either it’s the “unabstracted” view and there’s no other dimensions, (ignoring how WotK is 1/10th the Macrocosm and should be seen, or the fact people have come forward and said there is the Kanji for “half,” indicating size, the Z Buu Saga’s Afterlife statement was likely made with Toriyama’s Official Cosmology info based on Behind the Scenes info we have, etc. Yes, I’m saying “Too Small to be seen” makes no sense because we have info directly telling us it should be visible based on size), or it’s completely invalid and thus the more relevant source would be the literal (outside of scale), unabstracted, penned universe/model by Akira Toriyama, supported by multiple mediums, guides, and his own mouth.

You summed up my thoughts on the matter,thanks.

 

[Chariot190]

Also, yeah, the counter arguments for using this “unabstracted” view of the universe over the model literally don’t work.

Why the quotations? Are you really going to argue it is?

Either it’s the “unabstracted” view and there’s no other dimensions,

The anime already shows us Other World has stars, a starry space and what not. It can still exist just fine.

(ignoring how WotK is 1/10th the Macrocosm and should be seen,

Anime hates ya idk what to say, WotK's existence in the anime has multiple issues that would **** with that.

or the fact people have come forward and said there is the Kanji for “half,” indicating size,

Without a source mind you, like timeframe kinda matters.

the Z Buu Saga’s Afterlife statement was likely made with Toriyama’s Official Cosmology info based on Behind the Scenes info we have, etc.),

Good for everything else but the DBS anime.

or it’s completely invalid and thus the more relevant source would be the literal (outside of scale), unabstracted, penned universe/model by Akira Toriyama, supported by multiple mediums, guides, and his own mouth.

It is, quite literally, never drawn unabstracted.
It being used in guides and stated don't matter if it's contradicted by the actual material (literal wiki standards for guides/interviews ) and games the last thing ya wanna bring up

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Not really, big swirly funny-looking galaxy in enclosed spheres. They actually corroborate each other.

Oh wait, I was thinking of the DBS manga version where Whis’ example shows three giant galaxy-shaped things. The anime version shows a similar shape to the Super Shenron scene. My bad.

You'd think, but in such a case. What is simplified, what isn't? What's to scale? What isn't? How do we know? If it's simplified, is the thing itself simplified just to convey it in an easy-to-comprehend manner? What does it actually look like?

The purpose of the model is just to show how the realms relate to each other, the same way the Solar System models aim to show all the planets and the sun. A model like this can and will ignore anything necessary in order to prioritise its goal. In the case of the Solar System models, they’ll make the sizes much closer than they actually are, will sometimes ignore the existence of moons and will usually ignore the existence of asteroid fields and the like. Hell I’ve even seen a map that makes the larger planets comparable in size to the sun. In the same vein the macrocosm model merely intends to show how the main realms of the universe connect to each other, which it succeeds in doing. The sizes of stuff like Snake Way or the Kai planets don’t matter at all as they’re just there to represent everything that’s known to be in Otherworld at a size to where we can actually see them. All that matters and all it’s really trying to tell us is how the realms as a whole compare to each other.

Also this isn’t necessarily meant to argue that the macrocosm model should absolutely 100% be used in all continuities (although in the case of the manga I do believe it should), this is just to argue that there shouldn’t be any issues in considering using the macrocosm model if it can be fit into it.

And how does that align with Point 1

It wasn’t supposed to, they were completely unrelated questions.

either way the cosmology must align with the anime showings (WotK not being a secluded bubble off to the side, the uni as a whole being what we see in SS, etc).

Never said it shouldn’t, in fact after clarification on the Whis/Zeno stuff I’m leaning more towards agreeing with you on the anime front.

Anyway I’m probably not gonna respond again after this unless I deem it necessary. If people agree with me then cool, if people disagree with me then that’s also cool. I’m just gonna sit back and continue watching the chaos unfold.

 

[RedReaper616]

And? Anime is its own thing.

If I draw a circle to represent the planet being a sphere, and you’re supposed to draw a circle, and you draw a square, the world does not suddenly become a square. Toriyama’s Cosmology for his original manga was already penned.

Keyword, based on.
So is all the movies, all the games, and all the other stuff that can't actually fit within the manga's model.

“Can’t fit.” Why can’t they fit? Explain in detail how the shot that literally contradicts everything else, disregards Toriyama’s intent, and literally doesn’t make sense/fit with the lore “fit” more than the actual world.

Guides are only to be used when they don't contradict the source. And, in the anime's case, it IS its source. If the DBS anime contradicts the guides like a dozen times, wel sucks, but guides don't get to be used for it.

My guy. The Anime is contradicting the primary source. Toriyama. Who penned a cosmology for the Original Manga decades ago. You are using the Sequel Series to overwrite Original Series Canon.

Don't matter. DBS anime is the DBS anime, Toei is Toei, Manga is manga.
The dudes actually making it, are going to be the main source. Just like with anything els, we just treat it as a diff canon. DB ain't special in that regard well it was, but not anymore

Toei: Used the model because it’s the canon cosmology given by Tori.
Original Manga: Was outright stated by Toriyama to have this model, down to his funny little airport.
Dragon Ball Super Manga: Continues to use this model, because it is the objectively correct one, according to Toriyama (making anything else incorrect).
Dragon Ball Z Kai: Follows suit with its title screens.
Guides: Does the same everywhere.
Dragon Ball Super Anime: Out of 131 episodes, contradicts this a few times, but is said to be the canon continuation of the Original Manga, thus anything known to be objectively true in it should carry over. We also know that they’re all meant to take place in the exact same setting, meaning there shouldn’t be any meaningful differences between the cosmology. And, lastly, given Toriyama’s word > Literally anything else unless he is explicitly incorrect (and given everyone else follows his word, we know he’s not), so it should probably be overlooked or considered an inconsistency.

You: No. This, the time where the visuals are objectively wrong, where they contradict the intent of the late author, regardless of known circumstances that made it near impossible to do their jobs, contradicting themselves in their guides, and even outright wrong based on what we know, proves it is its own thing, truly unabstracted from map fluff (this does not exist. The model, outside of scale, is the literal cosmological structure). Thus any and all data we know can be used as supplementary or to fact check the anime must be thrown out and we accept this and only this.

This doesn't matter. Just because some fights had dog animation, doesn't mean the few actually decently animated space shots aren't what they intended.
Actual guesswork, by this logic, why use anything in the anime? Maybe every feat is wrong too?

SUPER SHENRON’S EXPANSION LITERALLY LOOKED LIKE THE GRADUAL ENLARGEMENT OF A PNG.

It extends to FAR MORE than just “Muh fights.” It is actively noted that every episode was affected by this due to lack of time to really do their jobs to the level they’re happy with until the ToP, which is after they had bought themselves decent amounts of time via the filler episodes.

Also, while I completely accept there are differences between the Anime and Manga of Dragon Ball Super, I find it completely disingenuous to compare something as small as individual hax abilities (Ala Hit) to something as significant as THE ENTIRE SETTING OF THE SERIES.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

From everything I've seen:
Toei - Outright 2-C (guidebook statements)
DBS Manga - Outright 2-C (utilises the macrocosm model as representation of the universe and shows the Afterlife and Living World are two halves of one structure)
DBS Anime - Either Low 2-C or possibly/likely 2-C (Due to the Super Shenron scene being contradictory with the other realms)

I would like to dismiss the Super Shenron scene entirely but I can't in good faith.

 

[Omegabronic]

https://www.kanzenshuu.com/guides/gods/hierarchy/kaio2.png

why show a scene for DB Kai as if it meant anything for DBS?

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

why show a scene for DB Kai as if it meant anything for DBS?

(Because it's based and it's how canonicity should be. GG.)

 

[Chariot190]

If I draw a circle to represent the planet being a sphere, and you’re supposed to draw a circle, and you draw a square, the world does not suddenly become a square. Toriyama’s Cosmology for his original manga was already penned.

It does if ya do it a few times, and tack on a bunch of other shit that contradicts it?
You do know what a contradiction entails right?

If the DBS anime suddenly changed the WotK's suns to moons and kept it like that a dozen times, are we going to pretend they're actually suns? Obviously not. In said canon, they'd be moons now.

“Can’t fit.” Why can’t they fit?

Are you for real right now? Why do you think we don't use any of them but like 2-3?

Explain in detail how the shot that literally contradicts everything else, disregards Toriyama’s intent, and literally doesn’t make sense/fit with the lore “fit” more than the actual world.

Hmm? Because it's what the canon actually shows? Coincides with Whis' examples. Zeno's examples. WotK's case of evidently not being secluded on DBS anime specifically based on various pans and zoom shots, otherworld having a starry sky, all while simultaneously having no concrete evidence of working on the model in the actual medium itself.

I feel that is the time where we draw the line.

My guy. The Anime is contradicting the primary source. Toriyama. Who penned a cosmology for the Original Manga decades ago. You are using the Sequel Series to overwrite Original Series Canon.

"You're using how it's consistently portrayed in the Sequel Series, in the Sequel Series!"
Yes, I am. Is that a problem? Ignoring retcons exist, are we not supposed to use the source material, for the material in question? That's rhetorical.

Toei: Used the model because it’s the canon cosmology given by Tori.

Good for Toei.

Original Manga: Was outright stated by Toriyama to have this model, down to his funny little airport.

Good for the 30yo manga.

Dragon Ball Super Manga: Continues to use this model, because it is the objectively correct one, according to Toriyama (making anything else incorrect).

I mean ignoring the abstraction in the single usage and then two contradictory cases but you do you.

Dragon Ball Z Kai: Follows suit with its title screens.

I really don't feel like I need to explain the issue with this one?

Guides: Does the same everywhere.

Guides, can only be used, if they don't contradict the source. Goes for any medium. It's fine for stuff like Toei, it is not fine for DBS anime.

None of that is the DBS anime.

Dragon Ball Super Anime: Out of 131 episodes, contradicts this a few times, but is said to be the canon continuation of the Original Manga, thus anything known to be objectively true in it should carry over. We also know that they’re all meant to take place in the exact same setting, meaning there shouldn’t be any meaningful differences between the cosmology. And, lastly, given Toriyama’s word > Literally anything else unless he is explicitly incorrect (and given everyone else follows his word, we know he’s not), so it should probably be overlooked or considered an inconsistency.

Yes, out of every time the universe is shown, panned out, zoomed out, whatever, whether that be WotK shit, space itself, or the whole uni, it contradicts the model.

This does not mean "let's ignore every anime scene", it means "anime works on a different model because that's what it shows".

We do not composite them anymore, what the others do, do not matter.

You: No. This, the time where the visuals are objectively wrong,

Not the only time, which already makes your strawman fall apart.

where they contradict the intent of the late author

Actually knock it the **** off.

, regardless of known circumstances that made it near impossible to do their jobs, contradicting themselves in their guides, and even outright wrong based on what we know, proves it is its own thing,

Yes. The source material takes precedence, the anime is its own thing, what it actually shows, is what we get.
And how is it outright wrong? Because it doesn't abide by the other canons? Well tough luck I guess?

truly unabstracted from map fluff (this does not exist. The model, outside of scale, is the literal cosmological structure).

You keep contradicting yourself. And that's bullshit anyway, we know the bottom dome doesn't have an opaque wall, but hey just another thing to handwave because the model 100% legit?

Thus any and all data we know can be used as supplementary or to fact check the anime must be thrown out and we accept this and only this.

Yeah? If the anime shows us differently, has scenes within it to support that, all of which contradict the model in some way, yet as no concrete proof of working upon said model any longer within the medium itself.
Well, yeah actually, we DO throw that shit out?

SUPER SHENRON’S EXPANSION LITERALLY LOOKED LIKE THE GRADUAL ENLARGEMENT OF A PNG.

Idk man, why not just copy paste the uni model then? Slap a PNG of it and call it a day? Would have been legit less work.

How do you know the actual uni depiction was subject to issues? In fact why would it be? It'd be the most simple thing to get right?

It extends to FAR MORE than just “Muh fights.” It is actively noted that every episode was affected by this due to lack of time to really do their jobs to the level they’re happy with until the ToP, which is after they had bought themselves decent amounts of time via the filler episodes.

And? Then let's throw out every single feat pre ToP, they can't be used evidently.
How do you know what was even affected specifically each episode? Hell let's just delete the anime profiles then, Everything before ToP can't be used right?

Also, while I completely accept there are differences between the Anime and Manga of Dragon Ball Super, I find it completely disingenuous to compare something as small as individual hax abilities (Ala Hit) to something as significant as THE ENTIRE SETTING OF THE SERIES.

I didn't even mention Hit. And dog, Toei, DBH, and canon already have huge drastic cosmology differences. Yet the DBS anime showing us pretty consistently it ain't working on that model, is suddenly too much?

What do you want me to say?
"Let's ignore every contradiction because other canons do differently and god forbid an anime studio has a bad budget and time crunch in the late 2010s"?

 

[Omegabronic]

With respect, the manga both depicts the universe as the spinning top and says the otherworld is half the spinning top?

But this is getting confusing

my understanding is that:

Toei is DB anime -DBZ anime + DBZ movies + GT

The primary canon is DB manga + DBS anime

manga canon is DB manga + DBS manga

The only major contentious point here is the DBS anime depicts the universes in such a way that makes the spinning top model incongruent to what's shown on screen, but the manga + guides lack that argument and has guides that support 2-C U7 and the Toei anime has shown the otherworld to be a universe in filler material iirc.

for the "half" point, i really would prefer to have a human translator translate it before using it

 

[Chariot190]

Tbh I think it might actually say that a source would be nice tho, timeframe might matter

 

[LordDestroit10K]

From everything I've seen:
Toei - Outright 2-C (guidebook statements)
DBS Manga - Outright 2-C (utilises the macrocosm model as representation of the universe and shows the Afterlife and Living World are two halves of one structure)
DBS Anime - Either Low 2-C or possibly/likely 2-C (Due to the Super Shenron scene being contradictory with the other realms)

I would like to dismiss the Super Shenron scene entirely but I can't in good faith.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

From everything I've seen:
Toei - Outright 2-C (guidebook statements)
DBS Manga - Outright 2-C (utilises the macrocosm model as representation of the universe and shows the Afterlife and Living World are two halves of one structure)
DBS Anime - Either Low 2-C or possibly/likely 2-C (Due to the Super Shenron scene being contradictory with the other realms)

I would like to dismiss the Super Shenron scene entirely but I can't in good faith.

This seems the most sensible to me, given the contradictions DBS Anime shows (and since we don't want to take into consideration what Tori made for all, it is what it is)

 

[ArcaneAbyss]

The problem is, the dbs anime model shot does not show all the reams (afterlife, kaioshin, demon world), it literally can't be the model of the entire universe. Its either it only showed a physical universe model, or it showed the entire universe but skipped the other realms, in any possible case, there is no way anyone can use that scene to showcase the entire cosmology because it literally does not show the entire cosmology and we KNOW that both the afterlife and kaioshin realm exists in super

let's not forget the fact that the primary source for both the dbs anime and manga was Toriyama, who still kept his model as he has done from inception

my point is simply...the anime model is too limited to use for the entire cosmology as it does not show all the realms, it only basically showed one, if it showed everything and it was different from the normal model, that'd be a different case entirely. The only model you CAN use for the anime that actually shows everything is the standard model. iirc, a guidebook for the dbs anime, also uses the model.

 

[LordDestroit10K]

The problem is, the dbs anime model shot does not show all the reams (afterlife, kaioshin, demon world), it literally can't be the model of the entire universe. Its either it only showed a physical universe model, or it showed the entire universe but skipped the other realms, in any possible case, there is no way anyone can use that scene to showcase the entire cosmology because it literally does not show the entire cosmology and we KNOW that both the afterlife and kaioshin realm exists in super

let's not forget the fact that the primary source for both the dbs anime and manga was Toriyama, who still kept his model as he has done from inception

my point is simply...the anime model is too limited to use for the entire cosmology as it does not show all the realms, it only basically showed one, if it showed everything and it was different from the normal model, that'd be a different case entirely. The only model you CAN use for the anime that actually shows everything is the standard model. iirc, a guidebook for the dbs anime, also uses the model.

And DBS Start Guidebook also brings the entire map…

 

[Chariot190]

The problem is, the dbs anime mode shot does not show all the reams (afterlife, kaioshin, demon world), it literally can't be the model of the entire universe. Its either it only showed a physical universe model, or it showed the entire universe but skipped the other realms, in any possible case, there is no way anyone can use that scene to showcase the entire cosmology because it literally does not show the entire cosmology and we KNOW that both the afterlife and kaioshin realm exists in super

And? How many times do I have to say this? 10? 20?

Not only is that THE argument, but the afterlife and WotK can exist just fine. Like goddamn.

let's not forget the fact that the primary source for both the dbs anime and manga was Toriyama, who still kept his model as he has done from inception

And? DBS anime doesn't abide by it.

my point is simply...the anime model is too limited to use for the entire cosmology as it does not show all the realms, it only basically showed one, if it showed everything and it was different from the normal model, that'd be a different case entirely.

"if it was the same as the model we could use it".

For all we know it is showing everything.

After life? We know it has starry expanses, it can easily be in there, after all, we aren't dealing with a blatantly abstracted, not-to scale model where even snake way s visible. of course most of the small shit ain't gonna be seen, We'd just be seeing the random stars and stuff
WotK? DBS anime makes it pretty evident it ain't in a secluded sphere off to the side but just kinda exist in the uni at the edge (and if it was, it'd be off the to the side in the SS shot anyway so no issue either way).

Is it because we don't see big ass opaque walls seperating things? That's evidently not the case in DBS anime, we get multiple pans and cross crosses between realms without that being the case. Ffs Elder Kai can literally look up into the sky, into space, and see space and planets and stuff in the mortal realm (we get like 3 pov shos of this no less in DBS), simply because he has superman eyesight. A huge ass opaque wall ain't blocking his view, which it would be if the model was taken literally.

Mayhaps the dimensional walls just translucent? Like that very scene itself shows anyhow?

The only model you CAN use for the anime that actually shows everything is the standard model. iirc, a guidebook for the dbs anime, also uses the model.

I feel like nobody actually understands what "contradiction" means

 

[Chariot190]

And DBS Start Guidebook also brings the entire map…

You really wanna use the map where King Kai's planet is visible dog?

 

[RedReaper616]

And? How many times do I have to say this? 10? 20?

Not only is that THE argument, but the afterlife and WotK can exist just fine. Like goddamn.

And? DBS anime doesn't abide by it.

"if it was the same as the model we could use it".

For all we know it is showing everything.

After life? We know it has starry expanses, it can easily be in there, after all, we aren't dealing with a blatantly abstracted, not-to scale model where even snake way s visible. of course most of the small shit ain't gonna be seen, We'd just be seeing the random stars and stuff
WotK? DBS anime makes it pretty evident it ain't in a secluded sphere off to the side but just kinda exist in the uni at the edge (and if it was, it'd be off the to the side in the SS shot anyway so no issue either way).

Is it because we don't see big ass opaque walls seperating things? That's evidently not the case in DBS anime, we get multiple pans and cross crosses between realms without that being the case. Ffs Elder Kai can literally look up into the sky, into space, and see space and planets and stuff in the mortal realm (we get like 3 pov shos of this no less in DBS), simply because he has superman eyesight. A huge ass opaque wall ain't blocking his view, which it would be if the model was taken literally.

No? He just has clairvoyant capacity. Like how he knew where Gotenks and Buu were fighting despite staring at Gohan for 20 hours.

 

[Chariot190]

No? He just has clairvoyant capacity. Like how he knew where Gotenks and Buu were fighting despite staring at Gohan for 20 hours.

Doesn't work when we get a cool space shot, passing planets, stars, nebulae, etc, all directly from his PoV, from his eyes, as he looks up into space, and then looks up like twice more that ep just to check shit.

Like he is actually looking up into space, and going "uh huh yep, beerus doing shit ig", looks down, talks, looks back "uh huh yep still doing it".

You'd have a point if it didn't literally depict it that way, with surprisingly well-animated panning shots from his eyes.
plus pretty sure he flat out says he has super good eyes.

Edit:

I can't find the cool space panning shots on YT, but nah, he legit just looking

 

[RedReaper616]

Doesn't work when we get a cool space shot, passing planets, stars, nebulae, etc, all directly from his PoV, from his eyes, as he looks up into space, and then looks up like twice more that ep just to check shit.

Like he is actually looking up into space, and going "uh huh yep, beerus doing shit ig", looks down, talks, looks back "uh huh yep still doing it".

You'd have a point if it didn't literally depict it that way, with surprisingly well-animated panning shots from his eyes.
plus pretty sure he flat out says he has super good eyes.

Edit:

I can't find the cool space panning shots on YT, but nah, he legit just looking

Would this not just be us seeing his clairvoyance through his eyes? I mean, if I recall correctly King Kai himself occasionally looks in directions for his clairvoyance, despite the fact it’s actually all in his antennae. Also, given his clairvoyance allows him to know things while reading **** or staring at Gohan, would it not instead literally just be a feat for his clairvoyance? Not a sudden change into regular vision? Why sidestep the basic conclusion?

 

[Nierre]

after reading thru this (finally) I agree with RedReaper.

 

[Chariot190]

Would this not just be us seeing his clairvoyance through his eyes?

Man he he literally focuses his eyes, and he actively looks, through his eyes, to see, coupled with him noting he has baddass eyes (pretty sure that's in Z actually)

That ain't gonna cut it if in the 1st 12 eps of DBS we get like a dozen blatant examples of him actively looking, a bunch from his PoV, and all while only looking and focusing his eyes, before stopping, before looking again to continue.

After a certain point ya just kinda have to roll with it man, DBS Anime def did not give a ****.

I mean, if I recall correctly King Kai himself occasionally looks in directions for his clairvoyance, despite the fact it’s actually all in his antennae.

Isn't that just him trying to "get a signal" kinda weird tbh that there's a signal for that

Also, given his clairvoyance allows him to know things while reading **** or staring at Gohan, would it not instead literally just be a feat for his clairvoyance?

No? Because this is demonstrably a case of him looking, it's kinda why he LOOKS while doing it

Not a sudden change into regular vision? Why sidestep the basic conclusion?

Man we see his eyes tremble as he focuses in the bad example I picked off.
It's his vision.

 

[TiltedFN]

Why are we arguing about old kai being able to see into the other realms? Like the kais job is to literally watch over the universe, he can see across dimensions into the mortal realm, this is so goofy man . The macrocosm map being taken literally or not wouldn't change that.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

I don't think "contrast" here means what I think you're trying to imply it means by bolding it. That being said, I suppose the "upper half" of the globe might indicate it has the same volume as the universe.

So all in all, I'm ok with 2-C (2 universes) for manga due to afterlife + WotL + no concept of spacetime between dimensions in the universe.

The kanji refers to it being a counterpart or contrasting with the Living World. According to our Universe standards, that should be enough to be Low 2-C. Since the Living World itself qualifies for Low 2-C.

It's also a word just for space, and 99% of the time, is what it's actually used for. And also zero correlation with expanse.

Looking at the text, I don't actually see the word for half, just "upper part".
"上部"

Except it most certainly isn't, even if taken literally, it still wouldn't be an exact parallel.

What's the source as in, how old is it

In most cases, I’ve seen it refer to the literal Universe. At this point, I’m just using it as supporting evidence for the other parts of my argument.

Well, if you look at the text below the macrocosm depiction on the map you should find the kanji “半分” which means half.

Also, the way it’s being said literally implies it’s a parallel. As it refers to it being a counterpart or a contrast to the world of the living.

Source again is the Super Exciting Guide.

for the "half" point, i really would prefer to have a human translator translate it before using it

I did.

 

[Omegabronic]

The kanji refers to it being a counterpart or contrasting with the Living World. According to our Universe standards, that should be enough to be Low 2-C. Since the Living World itself qualifies for Low 2-C.

In most cases, I’ve seen it refer to the literal Universe. At this point, I’m just using it as supporting evidence for the other parts of my argument.

Well, if you look at the text below the macrocosm depiction on the map you should find the kanji “半分” which means half.

Also, the way it’s being said literally implies it’s a parallel. As it refers to it being a counterpart or a contrast to the world of the living.

Source again is the Super Exciting Guide.


I did.

being "counterpart" or "contrast" is not really solid proof of them being of the same size tho

 

[LordDestroit10K]

being "counterpart" or "contrast" is not really solid proof of them being of the same size tho

“Cosmos”, “Upper Half”, etc… this is getting annoying tbh