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All right, I got a translation from a native speaker (though I really doubt it was necessary since the phrase speaks for itself). Is this enough now?
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Dragon Ball MWI undoing continuation thread
- Thread starter omegabronic
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outside of all the other stuff like the Cosmos and Contrast scans....ig, but then again Chariot does bring up good points about the DBS Anime's contradiction to thisAll right, I got a translation (though I really doubt it was necessary since the phrase speaks for itself). Is this enough now?
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I don't know, I've seen this argument being accepted in the wiki. I have one in mind here, but I think it would be better to DM if you're interested.
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My guy, there’s a whole page on the Universe standards. If you fulfill the evidences then it’s reasonably acceptable. Me using the “The Cosmos” statement was to attempt to fit the bill of being synonymous with Universe. Then, I brought up the contrast and counterpart section because it’s literally an example that applies here. Also, it fits the bill for the mirroring section pretty nicely. Then, we have a statement that the afterlife makes up the upper half of the “globe” which is referring to the globe of DB term. This is literally solid fulfillment of our Universe standards, plus some more. Since I understand why the “The Cosmos” alone might be tricky, but when we have these other statements that fit the bill it helps us quite nicely.
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i don't see "contrast" nor "counterpart" anywhere in the standards at all
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- If there is shown to be a collection of multiple alternate worlds/dimensions that are either stated to be parallel and/or there are visual depictions resembling each of those worlds/dimensions to be metaphorically similar to each other (Such as bubbles or other structures that appear similar in size), and most importantly, at least one of those individual worlds/dimensions has shown enough evidence to consider them a Universe level+ sized spacetime continuum, then the conclusion is to consider all of those individual worlds/dimensions universes and that the entire collection is a multiverse.
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Counterpart doesn't mean parallel tho, and Contrast has the opposite meaning to it........you kind of shot this point in the foot with that one
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Counterpart does mean kind of mean 'parallel' when it comes to alternate dimensions,just saying.
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Alright, this is just hard evidence now. We can conclusively state that the DBS Manga, Toei anime and original manga all treat the Afterlife as a Low 2-C realm (Dimensional walls + cosmological model specifically depicts the Afterlife as the upper half of the macrocosm). So now we're back at the drawing board with the Super Shenron scene.All right, I got a translation from a native speaker (though I really doubt it was necessary since the phrase speaks for itself). Is this enough now?
Personally I would interpret it as just a poorly animated outlier that contradicts everything else but at the same time it isn't impossible for a new story to contradict and replace a previous story's cosmology. That's why I'm not willing to just rule it out entirely. Because I do see where people are coming from there.
What we need right now is something heavy-hitting specifically from the DBS Anime continuity. The good thing is if that whole "4D constructs are inherently Low 2-C" thing passes we will get 2-C DBS Anime back eventually.
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btw where is the scan from?
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The upper half and contrasting statement is from the Super Exciting Guide. It's posted around Page 8 or 9.
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Why are we arguing about old kai being able to see into the other realms? Like the kais job is to literally watch over the universe, he can see across dimensions into the mortal realm, this is so goofy man. The macrocosm map being take literally or not wouldn't change that.
I can go on. He's quite literally just looking into space.
"He can see across dimensions", and yet, they never show that, instead they show space shots where it zooms out (the bog one is cool).
"but wotk is an alt dimension", hence the contention, what's actually being shown, isn't adding up, least of all not with the model.
Here we have a dude with supervision, looking into space, seeing space, but not the apparently huge ass opaque dome that apparently exists? That would need to exist for the model to be used?
idk man this just comes off as more handwaving or twisting what's actually shown to fit a preconceived notion. And given this is, well, the same canon that has the SS scene, the various other space pans, coupled with the Whis example, and so on. Why are we led to believe they actually hovering outside the uni again within the anime? We aren't, nothing in the anime itself actually shows as much
In other news. That half statement should be ok for the DBS manga
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So Kaioshin Realm and Afterlife are not actual dimensions in DBS anime?
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wait.....isn't this describing the Macrocosm Map that, as established, the DBS Anime doesn't even use in verse?
the way it is phrased "the upper half of the huge globe is the heavenly world"("the" here is used as a way to reference a globe we can see, as the image this is linked with has an arrow pointing at the macrocosm map, so it is pretty much abundantly clear that it is merely describing the macrocosm map) + it being linked alongside the image of it would indicate as such
cuz if it is.......yeah i would have to disagree as it would be describing the aspects of a map that: 1 is an abstraction not accurate to size at all and 2 one that the DBS Anime, as established, doesn't use to begin with
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Could you guys tag some staff into this?
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@Deagonx @KingTempest @Theglassman12 @Qawsedf234 @Everything12
TL;DR in the OP: https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-mwi-undoing-continuation-thread.168708/
@LordDestroit10K Keep irrelevant comments to a minimum.
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I asked you the reason of your disagreement with Afterlife universal size after all the evidence we bring up, and I’m still waiting for
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Outdated TLDR, we brought up new points. That align with the Universe standards
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Ah. Edited my reply.
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except it clearly doesn't?
in other words, it doesnt show anything, and you're somehow believing it does?
"can easily be in there" so basically, you DONT know where it is on that image as it is clearly not shown? good to know
I know you did not just try to use size as some argument when a structure 1/10th the entire macrocosm isn't visible, yet tiny stars are....Snake way being visible is meaningless, the official model is a model that shows all the relevant structures, why would snakeway be absent? you seem to be completely hung on a 1:1 scaling with snake way. and fun fact, if we DO have to decide if it is 1:1, which we don't, new info in primary canon>old info.... at best, snake way would be retconned in size
this has got to be a joke, so now then kaoshin realm is not in its own dimension, simply to try and make everything fit into a clearly limited model?
so basically, you DONT know where it is on that image as it is clearly not shown? good to know
so the guy whose literal job is watching over the living world, can.......see into the living world? the same guy who effortlessly followed a fight between gotenks and buu even when they were in another time dimension? color me SHOCKED. Someone being able to see across dimensions is an ABILITY for HIM, not some ridiculous theory of transparent spacetimes just to fit into a limited model of the universe
another "Maybe". and now we are aperently dealing with transcluscent walls, as if that means anything when it comes to different spaces
or MAYBE, we take the simple, common sensical and clear facts that we can ALL see? that the universal model the anime uses does NOT show the other realms and as such, can NOT be used in discussions about the entire cosmology of the macrocosm? instead of a multitude of offshore assumptions such as transclusent spacetimes, or realms being hidden behind galaxy No. 9000
if you say so, but it's clear that you have no interest in changing your position, so agree to disagreeI feel like nobody actually understands what "contradiction" means
just to be clear, is this for the dbs anime?
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Kai realm sure aint. They dont even get the sun thing right.So Kaioshin Realm and Afterlife are not actual dimensions in DBS anime?
Afterlife could be, but it definitely isn't half. Maybe it's nonvisible because it isn't big enough? Maybe it is visible and the dimensional wall is translucent (i mean we already know this is how it works), maybe we do see it (anime shows the afterlife having vast expanses of starry skies and stuff
Ether way, DBS went off the rails, like that shit obviously exists, but it existing in the way the model presents, is demonstrably not the case.
WotK isn't even secluded in the anime, so, yeah nah that's 100% in there somewhere given it'd just be a random blip.
And afterlife? Has a bunch of starry sky expanses, just because we don't see, uh, snake way? Doesnt mean it aint there when the afterlife just looks like space when not drawn overtly abstracted like the model
I am giving you all the benefit of the doubt, do you not get that? Whether it's separate or not, ain't my concern, it isn't gonna change how the anime treats it.
Doesn't need to be, it doesn't matter. What we see is what we get, if you think it doesn't, then cool.
I'm giving you possibilities based on a few facts we can gleam from adjacent info we're shown, if you don't want to take them, that's fine. It'd just mean the anime canon uni isn't 2-C.
Man, you do know what this CRT is about right?
"the guide says it so it mu-", where in the anime does it state that? Does the anime contradict the guide? Ok then we don't use the guide for this canon.
Bro does not know what a star is.
This shit ain't "tiny stars", they're galaxies.
Except it isn't. It's evidence of it being abstracted.
Why would it be visible and take up over half the model? Why even draw it? It hasn't been relevant since the Saiyan Saga so ain't like it's important.
I'm hung up on the fact the anime has a dozen blatant contradictions with the model, and yet we're supposed to use a demonstrably not to scale, nonliteral model, over the actual in-universe displays?
Also no, if we wanted to go with "new info > old", DBS anime shit all happens after the guide and old anime statements bar like, maybe 1? So good going.
It is what it is, blame the anime.
And there you go, "a limited model", so it isn't accurate? If it isn't accurate, what's it actually look like? What parts simplified? What isn't? Etc.
Could be, could not be, if ya want low 2-C, that's fine by me, don't say I didn't try.
Yes. And? It's his job, he's doing it with cool super vision, by looking up into space.
If the method contradicts the alleged nonconfirmed model, well sucks to suck.
Yeah see, that's the issue. He didn't do that by looking up into sky, squinting, and zooming past galaxies and what not. He was actually using some clairvoyant shit there. That is not what happens in Super (a lot actually, he does it quite a few times).
"He can do this, so him doing this different thing don't count", nah, both can be true, hell both ARE true, he straight up has supervision. He can see super good at ridiculous distances, that's how he can see into the mortal realm, not via some wacky clairvoyant shit, which, I'm not saying he doesn't have, but that ain't what's being used here.
If that was strictly the case we wouldn't have the like 5 scenes where he does exactly that, stops, then looks back to continue doing so, all with cool space panning shots as it zips pasts planets, stars, galaxies, to his "realm", which apparently exists outside the universe?
Not an ability, was never stated to be, never shown to be, never implied to be. He can see good, he can see so good he can see into space. Yet if the model applied to the anime, we wouldn't get the shots as depicted, there'd be a wall in the way.
ALSO, we literally see transparent space times like 3+ times in the DBS anime.
Yes, because they are, and? Dimensions can be enclosed in translucent dimensional walls. We are directly shown that.
You realize that's what I'm doing right? What the anime actually shows, does not corroborate the guides. Guides can only be used if they don't contradict. They contradict. They do not get to be used.
Whether it's WotK, Whis' explanation, Zeno stuff, the actual straight up literal showing, the dozen random zoom outs and stuff, every time the anime ***** with the universe in some way, it contradicts the model. While also having no real evidence the model is what's being used.
The anime simply works differently.
And you seem to misunderstand, translucent spacetime is straight up canon, that isn't an assumption, the DBS anime depicts the barrier between worlds as translucent, that isn't an "Assumption", it's just not being blind.
And the realms being hidden behind galaxies? That's the thing, what realm? If the anime doesn't show them as separate, well sucks to suck but then they aren't, they wouldn't be hidden, they'd just be a whole, assume you want to go that route anyway, idk why you're acting like I care, I don't, whether theyre separate or not, it wouldn't change what the anime actually depicts.
Toei hard confirmed model and uni afterlife. Manga seems to be model. It is simply the DBS anime that I have issue with it.
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Ofc
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so, we do indeed have a macrocosm model for the entire structure for the anime as well, which literally shows ass the realms and regions. Why anyone would want to use a model that clearly only showed the physical universe, is beyond me. Anyway, I don't think any side is going to convince the other at this point.
denisnic55
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OOOOOOHHHHHH you back in the higher ups eh? congrats
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My thoughts align with this.
Killerdrone123
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So you agree with 2c macrocosm and low 2c afterlife for anime
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Yes.
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well, that is still saying how much the Super Shenron scene cannot be ruled out, so do you agree with a full Low 2-C rating for the afterlife for the DBS Anime?
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Don't we have calculations that make the Kaioshin realm the size of the Universe? I remember there being something like that, because it was the size of the afterlife and the living Universe
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I think that only works when we accept universe sized heaven
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I see, so we have three votes for it to be the size of the Universe, now all that's left to do is pass, then we'll have 3 Universal-sized space-times back.
Honestly, that wasn't even necessary, since it would be accepted back and we'll still be left with 3 space-time.
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Bros finally spitting
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1 vote for a likely rating based on the cosmos scan, 2 for a straight ratings based on that + more, and 2 against it being universal in general
not enough for application no matter how you slice it
also..........no? the afterlife being universal doesn't make Kaioshin realm universal............Heaven was the universal thing making the calc for the afterlife size, but that is out of the picture now
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Only 1 left for this to be accepted
Yes, you can do calculations and you can make the Kaioshin realm the size of the Universe, in fact, it already is, but if heaven is accepted the Kaioshin realm becomes Universal size, we already have calculations for him accepted , it's just a matter of time.
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