• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Dragon Ball MWI undoing continuation thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
All right, I got a translation from a native speaker (though I really doubt it was necessary since the phrase speaks for itself). Is this enough now?
IMG-1327.jpg
 
Last edited:
All right, I got a translation (though I really doubt it was necessary since the phrase speaks for itself). Is this enough now?
IMG-1327.jpg
outside of all the other stuff like the Cosmos and Contrast scans....ig, but then again Chariot does bring up good points about the DBS Anime's contradiction to this
 
being "counterpart" or "contrast" is not really solid proof of them being of the same size tho
My guy, there’s a whole page on the Universe standards. If you fulfill the evidences then it’s reasonably acceptable. Me using the “The Cosmos” statement was to attempt to fit the bill of being synonymous with Universe. Then, I brought up the contrast and counterpart section because it’s literally an example that applies here. Also, it fits the bill for the mirroring section pretty nicely. Then, we have a statement that the afterlife makes up the upper half of the “globe” which is referring to the globe of DB term. This is literally solid fulfillment of our Universe standards, plus some more. Since I understand why the “The Cosmos” alone might be tricky, but when we have these other statements that fit the bill it helps us quite nicely. There also are some verses that I know that even use the contrast/counterpart shenanigans, but I’m not gonna name them cuz I don’t want to resort to whataboutism, instead I’m resorting to the standards written.
 
My guy, there’s a whole page on the Universe standards. If you fulfill the evidences then it’s reasonably acceptable. Me using the “The Cosmos” statement was to attempt to fit the bill of being synonymous with Universe. Then, I brought up the contrast and counterpart section because it’s literally an example that applies here. Also, it fits the bill for the mirroring section pretty nicely. Then, we have a statement that the afterlife makes up the upper half of the “globe” which is referring to the globe of DB term. This is literally solid fulfillment of our Universe standards, plus some more. Since I understand why the “The Cosmos” alone might be tricky, but when we have these other statements that fit the bill it helps us quite nicely. There also are some verses that I know that even use the contrast/counterpart shenanigans, but I’m not gonna name them cuz I don’t want to resort to whataboutism, instead I’m resorting to the standards written.
i don't see "contrast" nor "counterpart" anywhere in the standards at all

you know, if you instead pointed to where you are referencing instead of just referencing it it would help a lot
 
i don't see "contrast" nor "counterpart" anywhere in the standards at all

you know, if you instead pointed to where you are referencing instead of just referencing it it would help a lot
  • If there is shown to be a collection of multiple alternate worlds/dimensions that are either stated to be parallel and/or there are visual depictions resembling each of those worlds/dimensions to be metaphorically similar to each other (Such as bubbles or other structures that appear similar in size), and most importantly, at least one of those individual worlds/dimensions has shown enough evidence to consider them a Universe level+ sized spacetime continuum, then the conclusion is to consider all of those individual worlds/dimensions universes and that the entire collection is a multiverse.
It should fit this bill that I bolded. I guess you can ignore the visual depiction part, but it still stands regarding the statement part.
 
  • If there is shown to be a collection of multiple alternate worlds/dimensions that are either stated to be parallel and/or there are visual depictions resembling each of those worlds/dimensions to be metaphorically similar to each other (Such as bubbles or other structures that appear similar in size), and most importantly, at least one of those individual worlds/dimensions has shown enough evidence to consider them a Universe level+ sized spacetime continuum, then the conclusion is to consider all of those individual worlds/dimensions universes and that the entire collection is a multiverse.
It should fit this bill that I bolded. I guess you can ignore the visual depiction part, but it still stands regarding the statement part.
Counterpart doesn't mean parallel tho, and Contrast has the opposite meaning to it........you kind of shot this point in the foot with that one
 
All right, I got a translation from a native speaker (though I really doubt it was necessary since the phrase speaks for itself). Is this enough now?
IMG-1327.jpg
Alright, this is just hard evidence now. We can conclusively state that the DBS Manga, Toei anime and original manga all treat the Afterlife as a Low 2-C realm (Dimensional walls + cosmological model specifically depicts the Afterlife as the upper half of the macrocosm). So now we're back at the drawing board with the Super Shenron scene.

Personally I would interpret it as just a poorly animated outlier that contradicts everything else but at the same time it isn't impossible for a new story to contradict and replace a previous story's cosmology. That's why I'm not willing to just rule it out entirely. Because I do see where people are coming from there.

What we need right now is something heavy-hitting specifically from the DBS Anime continuity. The good thing is if that whole "4D constructs are inherently Low 2-C" thing passes we will get 2-C DBS Anime back eventually.
 
Why are we arguing about old kai being able to see into the other realms? Like the kais job is to literally watch over the universe, he can see across dimensions into the mortal realm, this is so goofy man😭 . The macrocosm map being take literally or not wouldn't change that.
looks into space
sees mortal world
cool ass panning shots where it zooms from earth, out of the galaxy, past stars and stuff, directly to him (this happens like 3 times)
literally squints and has to focus his eyes to look
actively looks up to do it, stops, then looks back up to continue
I can go on. He's quite literally just looking into space.

"He can see across dimensions", and yet, they never show that, instead they show space shots where it zooms out (the bog one is cool).
"but wotk is an alt dimension", hence the contention, what's actually being shown, isn't adding up, least of all not with the model.

Here we have a dude with supervision, looking into space, seeing space, but not the apparently huge ass opaque dome that apparently exists? That would need to exist for the model to be used?

idk man this just comes off as more handwaving or twisting what's actually shown to fit a preconceived notion. And given this is, well, the same canon that has the SS scene, the various other space pans, coupled with the Whis example, and so on. Why are we led to believe they actually hovering outside the uni again within the anime? We aren't, nothing in the anime itself actually shows as much and pretty sure even Edit: i forgot what i was gonna say


In other news. That half statement should be ok for the DBS manga not the anime tho that's ******
 
Last edited:
I can go on. He's quite literally just looking into space.

"He can see across dimensions", and yet, they never show that, instead they show space shots where it zooms out (the bog one is cool).
"but wotk is an alt dimension", hence the contention, what's actually being shown, isn't adding up, least of all not with the model.

Here we have a dude with supervision, looking into space, seeing space, but not the apparently huge ass opaque dome that apparently exists? That would need to exist for the model to be used?

idk man this just comes off as more handwaving or twisting what's actually shown to fit a preconceived notion. And given this is, well, the same canon that has the SS scene, the various other space pans, coupled with the Whis example, and so on. Why are we led to believe they actually hovering outside the uni again within the anime? We aren't, nothing in the anime itself actually shows as much and pretty sure even


In other news. That half statement should be ok for the DBS manga not the anime tho that's ******
So Kaioshin Realm and Afterlife are not actual dimensions in DBS anime? 💀
 
wait.....isn't this describing the Macrocosm Map that, as established, the DBS Anime doesn't even use in verse?

the way it is phrased "the upper half of the huge globe is the heavenly world"("the" here is used as a way to reference a globe we can see, as the image this is linked with has an arrow pointing at the macrocosm map, so it is pretty much abundantly clear that it is merely describing the macrocosm map) + it being linked alongside the image of it would indicate as such

cuz if it is.......yeah i would have to disagree as it would be describing the aspects of a map that: 1 is an abstraction not accurate to size at all and 2 one that the DBS Anime, as established, doesn't use to begin with
 
Last edited:
Not only is that THE argument, but the afterlife and WotK can exist just fine. Like goddamn.
except it clearly doesn't?
For all we know it is showing everything.
in other words, it doesnt show anything, and you're somehow believing it does?
After life? We know it has starry expanses, it can easily be in there,
"can easily be in there" so basically, you DONT know where it is on that image as it is clearly not shown? good to know
after all, we aren't dealing with a blatantly abstracted, not-to scale model where even snake way s visible. of course most of the small shit ain't gonna be seen, We'd just be seeing the random stars and stuff
I know you did not just try to use size as some argument when a structure 1/10th the entire macrocosm isn't visible, yet tiny stars are....Snake way being visible is meaningless, the official model is a model that shows all the relevant structures, why would snakeway be absent? you seem to be completely hung on a 1:1 scaling with snake way. and fun fact, if we DO have to decide if it is 1:1, which we don't, new info in primary canon>old info.... at best, snake way would be retconned in size
WotK? DBS anime makes it pretty evident it ain't in a secluded sphere off to the side but just kinda exist in the uni at the edge
this has got to be a joke, so now then kaoshin realm is not in its own dimension, simply to try and make everything fit into a clearly limited model?
(and if it was, it'd be off the to the side in the SS shot anyway so no issue either way).
so basically, you DONT know where it is on that image as it is clearly not shown? good to know
Is it because we don't see big ass opaque walls seperating things? That's evidently not the case in DBS anime, we get multiple pans and cross crosses between realms without that being the case. Ffs Elder Kai can literally look up into the sky, into space, and see space and planets and stuff in the mortal realm (we get like 3 pov shos of this no less in DBS), simply because he has superman eyesight. A huge ass opaque wall ain't blocking his view, which it would be if the model was taken literally.
so the guy whose literal job is watching over the living world, can.......see into the living world? the same guy who effortlessly followed a fight between gotenks and buu even when they were in another time dimension? color me SHOCKED. Someone being able to see across dimensions is an ABILITY for HIM, not some ridiculous theory of transparent spacetimes just to fit into a limited model of the universe
Mayhaps the dimensional walls just translucent? Like that very scene itself shows anyhow?
another "Maybe". and now we are aperently dealing with transcluscent walls, as if that means anything when it comes to different spaces

or MAYBE, we take the simple, common sensical and clear facts that we can ALL see? that the universal model the anime uses does NOT show the other realms and as such, can NOT be used in discussions about the entire cosmology of the macrocosm? instead of a multitude of offshore assumptions such as transclusent spacetimes, or realms being hidden behind galaxy No. 9000
I feel like nobody actually understands what "contradiction" means 🗿
if you say so, but it's clear that you have no interest in changing your position, so agree to disagree



And DBS Start Guidebook also brings the entire map…


just to be clear, is this for the dbs anime?
 
So Kaioshin Realm and Afterlife are not actual dimensions in DBS anime? 💀
Kai realm sure aint. They dont even get the sun thing right.

Afterlife could be, but it definitely isn't half. Maybe it's nonvisible because it isn't big enough? Maybe it is visible and the dimensional wall is translucent (i mean we already know this is how it works), maybe we do see it (anime shows the afterlife having vast expanses of starry skies and stuff think kai does too, specifically when cell blows up and then reforms, tbh that might be a decent feat
Ether way, DBS went off the rails, like that shit obviously exists, but it existing in the way the model presents, is demonstrably not the case.
except it clearly doesn't?
WotK isn't even secluded in the anime, so, yeah nah that's 100% in there somewhere given it'd just be a random blip.
And afterlife? Has a bunch of starry sky expanses, just because we don't see, uh, snake way? Doesnt mean it aint there when the afterlife just looks like space when not drawn overtly abstracted like the model 🗿
in other words, it doesnt show anything, and you're somehow believing it does?
I am giving you all the benefit of the doubt, do you not get that? Whether it's separate or not, ain't my concern, it isn't gonna change how the anime treats it.
"can easily be in there" so basically, you DONT know where it is on that image as it is clearly not shown? good to know
Doesn't need to be, it doesn't matter. What we see is what we get, if you think it doesn't, then cool.

I'm giving you possibilities based on a few facts we can gleam from adjacent info we're shown, if you don't want to take them, that's fine. It'd just mean the anime canon uni isn't 2-C.

I know you did not just try to use size as some argument when a structure 1/10th the entire macrocosm isn't visible,
Man, you do know what this CRT is about right?
"the guide says it so it mu-", where in the anime does it state that? Does the anime contradict the guide? Ok then we don't use the guide for this canon.
yet tiny stars are....
Bro does not know what a star is.


This shit ain't "tiny stars", they're galaxies.
Snake way being visible is meaningless,
Except it isn't. It's evidence of it being abstracted.
the official model is a model that shows all the relevant structures, why would snakeway be absent?
Why would it be visible and take up over half the model? Why even draw it? It hasn't been relevant since the Saiyan Saga so ain't like it's important.
you seem to be completely hung on a 1:1 scaling with snake way. and fun fact, if we DO have to decide if it is 1:1, which we don't, new info in primary canon>old info.... at best, snake way would be retconned in size
I'm hung up on the fact the anime has a dozen blatant contradictions with the model, and yet we're supposed to use a demonstrably not to scale, nonliteral model, over the actual in-universe displays?

Also no, if we wanted to go with "new info > old", DBS anime shit all happens after the guide and old anime statements bar like, maybe 1? So good going.
this has got to be a joke, so now then kaoshin realm is not in its own dimension, simply to try and make everything fit into a clearly limited model?
It is what it is, blame the anime.

And there you go, "a limited model", so it isn't accurate? If it isn't accurate, what's it actually look like? What parts simplified? What isn't? Etc.
so basically, you DONT know where it is on that image as it is clearly not shown? good to know
Could be, could not be, if ya want low 2-C, that's fine by me, don't say I didn't try.
so the guy whose literal job is watching over the living world, can.......see into the living world?
Yes. And? It's his job, he's doing it with cool super vision, by looking up into space.

If the method contradicts the alleged nonconfirmed model, well sucks to suck.
the same guy who effortlessly followed a fight between gotenks and buu even when they were in another time dimension? color me SHOCKED.
Yeah see, that's the issue. He didn't do that by looking up into sky, squinting, and zooming past galaxies and what not. He was actually using some clairvoyant shit there. That is not what happens in Super (a lot actually, he does it quite a few times).

"He can do this, so him doing this different thing don't count", nah, both can be true, hell both ARE true, he straight up has supervision. He can see super good at ridiculous distances, that's how he can see into the mortal realm, not via some wacky clairvoyant shit, which, I'm not saying he doesn't have, but that ain't what's being used here.
If that was strictly the case we wouldn't have the like 5 scenes where he does exactly that, stops, then looks back to continue doing so, all with cool space panning shots as it zips pasts planets, stars, galaxies, to his "realm", which apparently exists outside the universe?
Someone being able to see across dimensions is an ABILITY for HIM, not some ridiculous theory of transparent spacetimes just to fit into a limited model of the universe
Not an ability, was never stated to be, never shown to be, never implied to be. He can see good, he can see so good he can see into space. Yet if the model applied to the anime, we wouldn't get the shots as depicted, there'd be a wall in the way.

ALSO, we literally see transparent space times like 3+ times in the DBS anime.
another "Maybe". and now we are aperently dealing with transcluscent walls, as if that means anything when it comes to different spaces


Yes, because they are, and? Dimensions can be enclosed in translucent dimensional walls. We are directly shown that.
or MAYBE, we take the simple, common sensical and clear facts that we can ALL see? that the universal model the anime uses does NOT show the other realms and as such, can NOT be used in discussions about the entire cosmology of the macrocosm? instead of a multitude of offshore assumptions such as transclusent spacetimes, or realms being hidden behind galaxy No. 9000
You realize that's what I'm doing right? What the anime actually shows, does not corroborate the guides. Guides can only be used if they don't contradict. They contradict. They do not get to be used.

Whether it's WotK, Whis' explanation, Zeno stuff, the actual straight up literal showing, the dozen random zoom outs and stuff, every time the anime ***** with the universe in some way, it contradicts the model. While also having no real evidence the model is what's being used.
The anime simply works differently.

And you seem to misunderstand, translucent spacetime is straight up canon, that isn't an assumption, the DBS anime depicts the barrier between worlds as translucent, that isn't an "Assumption", it's just not being blind.
And the realms being hidden behind galaxies? That's the thing, what realm? If the anime doesn't show them as separate, well sucks to suck but then they aren't, they wouldn't be hidden, they'd just be a whole, assume you want to go that route anyway, idk why you're acting like I care, I don't, whether theyre separate or not, it wouldn't change what the anime actually depicts.
just to be clear, is this for the dbs anime?
Toei hard confirmed model and uni afterlife. Manga seems to be model. It is simply the DBS anime that I have issue with it.
 
Last edited:
Alright, this is just hard evidence now. We can conclusively state that the DBS Manga, Toei anime and original manga all treat the Afterlife as a Low 2-C realm (Dimensional walls + cosmological model specifically depicts the Afterlife as the upper half of the macrocosm). So now we're back at the drawing board with the Super Shenron scene.

Personally I would interpret it as just a poorly animated outlier that contradicts everything else but at the same time it isn't impossible for a new story to contradict and replace a previous story's cosmology. That's why I'm not willing to just rule it out entirely. Because I do see where people are coming from there.

What we need right now is something heavy-hitting specifically from the DBS Anime continuity. The good thing is if that whole "4D constructs are inherently Low 2-C" thing passes we will get 2-C DBS Anime back eventually.
My thoughts align with this.
 
My thoughts align with this.
well, that is still saying how much the Super Shenron scene cannot be ruled out, so do you agree with a full Low 2-C rating for the afterlife for the DBS Anime? sorry if spoon fed is too much, but the wording in the post you are quoting makes me a little confused about your vote, sorry
 
well, that is still saying how much the Super Shenron scene cannot be ruled out, so do you agree with a full Low 2-C rating for the afterlife for the DBS Anime? sorry if spoon fed is too much, but the wording in the post you are quoting makes me a little confused about your vote, sorry
See what I mean? Literally the comment above clarified. And more is still needed, apparently.
 
ngl I think the whole arguing whether kaioshin realm is another dimension or not is kinda silly when it clearly is
Don't we have calculations that make the Kaioshin realm the size of the Universe? I remember there being something like that, because it was the size of the afterlife and the living Universe
 
I think that only works when we accept universe sized heaven
I see, so we have three votes for it to be the size of the Universe, now all that's left to do is pass, then we'll have 3 Universal-sized space-times back.

Honestly, that wasn't even necessary, since it would be accepted back and we'll still be left with 3 space-time.
 
I see, so we have three votes for it to be the size of the Universe, now all that's left to do is pass, then we'll have 3 Universal-sized space-times back.

Honestly, that wasn't even necessary, since it would be accepted back and we'll still be left with 3 space-time.
1 vote for a likely rating based on the cosmos scan, 2 for a straight ratings based on that + more, and 2 against it being universal in general

not enough for application no matter how you slice it

also..........no? the afterlife being universal doesn't make Kaioshin realm universal............Heaven was the universal thing making the calc for the afterlife size, but that is out of the picture now
 
1 vote for a likely rating based on the cosmos scan, 2 for a straight ratings based on that + more, and 2 against it being universal in general

not enough for application no matter how you slice it
Only 1 left for this to be accepted
also..........no? the afterlife being universal doesn't make Kaioshin realm universal............Heaven was the universal thing making the calc for the afterlife size, but that is out of the picture now
Yes, you can do calculations and you can make the Kaioshin realm the size of the Universe, in fact, it already is, but if heaven is accepted the Kaioshin realm becomes Universal size, we already have calculations for him accepted , it's just a matter of time.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top