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All right, I got a translation from a native speaker (though I really doubt it was necessary since the phrase speaks for itself). Is this enough now?
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outside of all the other stuff like the Cosmos and Contrast scans....ig, but then again Chariot does bring up good points about the DBS Anime's contradiction to thisAll right, I got a translation (though I really doubt it was necessary since the phrase speaks for itself). Is this enough now?
I don't know, I've seen this argument being accepted in the wiki. I have one in mind here, but I think it would be better to DM if you're interested.being "counterpart" or "contrast" is not really solid proof of them being of the same size tho
My guy, there’s a whole page on the Universe standards. If you fulfill the evidences then it’s reasonably acceptable. Me using the “The Cosmos” statement was to attempt to fit the bill of being synonymous with Universe. Then, I brought up the contrast and counterpart section because it’s literally an example that applies here. Also, it fits the bill for the mirroring section pretty nicely. Then, we have a statement that the afterlife makes up the upper half of the “globe” which is referring to the globe of DB term. This is literally solid fulfillment of our Universe standards, plus some more. Since I understand why the “The Cosmos” alone might be tricky, but when we have these other statements that fit the bill it helps us quite nicely.being "counterpart" or "contrast" is not really solid proof of them being of the same size tho
i don't see "contrast" nor "counterpart" anywhere in the standards at allMy guy, there’s a whole page on the Universe standards. If you fulfill the evidences then it’s reasonably acceptable. Me using the “The Cosmos” statement was to attempt to fit the bill of being synonymous with Universe. Then, I brought up the contrast and counterpart section because it’s literally an example that applies here. Also, it fits the bill for the mirroring section pretty nicely. Then, we have a statement that the afterlife makes up the upper half of the “globe” which is referring to the globe of DB term. This is literally solid fulfillment of our Universe standards, plus some more. Since I understand why the “The Cosmos” alone might be tricky, but when we have these other statements that fit the bill it helps us quite nicely.There also are some verses that I know that even use the contrast/counterpart shenanigans, but I’m not gonna name them cuz I don’t want to resort to whataboutism, instead I’m resorting to the standards written.
i don't see "contrast" nor "counterpart" anywhere in the standards at all
you know, if you instead pointed to where you are referencing instead of just referencing it it would help a lot
Counterpart doesn't mean parallel tho, and Contrast has the opposite meaning to it........you kind of shot this point in the foot with that oneIt should fit this bill that I bolded. I guess you can ignore the visual depiction part, but it still stands regarding the statement part.
- If there is shown to be a collection of multiple alternate worlds/dimensions that are either stated to be parallel and/or there are visual depictions resembling each of those worlds/dimensions to be metaphorically similar to each other (Such as bubbles or other structures that appear similar in size), and most importantly, at least one of those individual worlds/dimensions has shown enough evidence to consider them a Universe level+ sized spacetime continuum, then the conclusion is to consider all of those individual worlds/dimensions universes and that the entire collection is a multiverse.
Counterpart does mean kind of mean 'parallel' when it comes to alternate dimensions,just saying.Counterpart doesn't mean parallel tho, and Contrast has the opposite meaning to it........you kind of shot this point in the foot with that one
Alright, this is just hard evidence now. We can conclusively state that the DBS Manga, Toei anime and original manga all treat the Afterlife as a Low 2-C realm (Dimensional walls + cosmological model specifically depicts the Afterlife as the upper half of the macrocosm). So now we're back at the drawing board with the Super Shenron scene.All right, I got a translation from a native speaker (though I really doubt it was necessary since the phrase speaks for itself). Is this enough now?
btw where is the scan from?
The upper half and contrasting statement is from the Super Exciting Guide. It's posted around Page 8 or 9.btw where is the scan from?
Why are we arguing about old kai being able to see into the other realms? Like the kais job is to literally watch over the universe, he can see across dimensions into the mortal realm, this is so goofy man . The macrocosm map being take literally or not wouldn't change that.
I can go on. He's quite literally just looking into space.looks into space
sees mortal world
cool ass panning shots where it zooms from earth, out of the galaxy, past stars and stuff, directly to him (this happens like 3 times)
literally squints and has to focus his eyes to look
actively looks up to do it, stops, then looks back up to continue
So Kaioshin Realm and Afterlife are not actual dimensions in DBS anime?I can go on. He's quite literally just looking into space.
"He can see across dimensions", and yet, they never show that, instead they show space shots where it zooms out (the bog one is cool).
"but wotk is an alt dimension", hence the contention, what's actually being shown, isn't adding up, least of all not with the model.
Here we have a dude with supervision, looking into space, seeing space, but not the apparently huge ass opaque dome that apparently exists? That would need to exist for the model to be used?
idk man this just comes off as more handwaving or twisting what's actually shown to fit a preconceived notion. And given this is, well, the same canon that has the SS scene, the various other space pans, coupled with the Whis example, and so on. Why are we led to believe they actually hovering outside the uni again within the anime? We aren't, nothing in the anime itself actually shows as muchand pretty sure even
In other news. That half statement should be ok for the DBS manganot the anime tho that's ******
wait.....isn't this describing the Macrocosm Map that, as established, the DBS Anime doesn't even use in verse?
Could you guys tag some staff into this?
@Deagonx @KingTempest @Theglassman12 @Qawsedf234 @Everything12Could you guys tag some staff into this?
I asked you the reason of your disagreement with Afterlife universal size after all the evidence we bring up, and I’m still waiting for@Deagonx @KingTempest @Theglassman12 @Qawsedf234 @Everything12
TL;DR can be found here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-mwi-undoing-continuation-thread.168708/page-8#post-6578360
@LordDestroit10K Keep irrelevant comments to a minimum.
Outdated TLDR, we brought up new points. That align with the Universe standards@Deagonx @KingTempest @Theglassman12 @Qawsedf234 @Everything12
TL;DR can be found here: https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragon-ball-mwi-undoing-continuation-thread.168708/page-8#post-6578360
@LordDestroit10K Keep irrelevant comments to a minimum.
Outdated TLDR, we brought up new points. That align with the Universe standards
ggs mane it’s over
Ah. Edited my reply.Outdated TLDR, we brought up new points.
except it clearly doesn't?Not only is that THE argument, but the afterlife and WotK can exist just fine. Like goddamn.
in other words, it doesnt show anything, and you're somehow believing it does?For all we know it is showing everything.
"can easily be in there" so basically, you DONT know where it is on that image as it is clearly not shown? good to knowAfter life? We know it has starry expanses, it can easily be in there,
I know you did not just try to use size as some argument when a structure 1/10th the entire macrocosm isn't visible, yet tiny stars are....Snake way being visible is meaningless, the official model is a model that shows all the relevant structures, why would snakeway be absent? you seem to be completely hung on a 1:1 scaling with snake way. and fun fact, if we DO have to decide if it is 1:1, which we don't, new info in primary canon>old info.... at best, snake way would be retconned in sizeafter all, we aren't dealing with a blatantly abstracted, not-to scale model where even snake way s visible. of course most of the small shit ain't gonna be seen, We'd just be seeing the random stars and stuff
this has got to be a joke, so now then kaoshin realm is not in its own dimension, simply to try and make everything fit into a clearly limited model?WotK? DBS anime makes it pretty evident it ain't in a secluded sphere off to the side but just kinda exist in the uni at the edge
so basically, you DONT know where it is on that image as it is clearly not shown? good to know(and if it was, it'd be off the to the side in the SS shot anyway so no issue either way).
so the guy whose literal job is watching over the living world, can.......see into the living world? the same guy who effortlessly followed a fight between gotenks and buu even when they were in another time dimension? color me SHOCKED. Someone being able to see across dimensions is an ABILITY for HIM, not some ridiculous theory of transparent spacetimes just to fit into a limited model of the universeIs it because we don't see big ass opaque walls seperating things? That's evidently not the case in DBS anime, we get multiple pans and cross crosses between realms without that being the case. Ffs Elder Kai can literally look up into the sky, into space, and see space and planets and stuff in the mortal realm (we get like 3 pov shos of this no less in DBS), simply because he has superman eyesight. A huge ass opaque wall ain't blocking his view, which it would be if the model was taken literally.
another "Maybe". and now we are aperently dealing with transcluscent walls, as if that means anything when it comes to different spacesMayhaps the dimensional walls just translucent? Like that very scene itself shows anyhow?
if you say so, but it's clear that you have no interest in changing your position, so agree to disagreeI feel like nobody actually understands what "contradiction" means
And DBS Start Guidebook also brings the entire map…
Kai realm sure aint. They dont even get the sun thing right.So Kaioshin Realm and Afterlife are not actual dimensions in DBS anime?
WotK isn't even secluded in the anime, so, yeah nah that's 100% in there somewhere given it'd just be a random blip.except it clearly doesn't?
I am giving you all the benefit of the doubt, do you not get that? Whether it's separate or not, ain't my concern, it isn't gonna change how the anime treats it.in other words, it doesnt show anything, and you're somehow believing it does?
Doesn't need to be, it doesn't matter. What we see is what we get, if you think it doesn't, then cool."can easily be in there" so basically, you DONT know where it is on that image as it is clearly not shown? good to know
Man, you do know what this CRT is about right?I know you did not just try to use size as some argument when a structure 1/10th the entire macrocosm isn't visible,
Bro does not know what a star is.yet tiny stars are....
Except it isn't. It's evidence of it being abstracted.Snake way being visible is meaningless,
Why would it be visible and take up over half the model? Why even draw it? It hasn't been relevant since the Saiyan Saga so ain't like it's important.the official model is a model that shows all the relevant structures, why would snakeway be absent?
I'm hung up on the fact the anime has a dozen blatant contradictions with the model, and yet we're supposed to use a demonstrably not to scale, nonliteral model, over the actual in-universe displays?you seem to be completely hung on a 1:1 scaling with snake way. and fun fact, if we DO have to decide if it is 1:1, which we don't, new info in primary canon>old info.... at best, snake way would be retconned in size
It is what it is, blame the anime.this has got to be a joke, so now then kaoshin realm is not in its own dimension, simply to try and make everything fit into a clearly limited model?
Could be, could not be, if ya want low 2-C, that's fine by me, don't say I didn't try.so basically, you DONT know where it is on that image as it is clearly not shown? good to know
Yes. And? It's his job, he's doing it with cool super vision, by looking up into space.so the guy whose literal job is watching over the living world, can.......see into the living world?
Yeah see, that's the issue. He didn't do that by looking up into sky, squinting, and zooming past galaxies and what not. He was actually using some clairvoyant shit there. That is not what happens in Super (a lot actually, he does it quite a few times).the same guy who effortlessly followed a fight between gotenks and buu even when they were in another time dimension? color me SHOCKED.
Not an ability, was never stated to be, never shown to be, never implied to be. He can see good, he can see so good he can see into space. Yet if the model applied to the anime, we wouldn't get the shots as depicted, there'd be a wall in the way.Someone being able to see across dimensions is an ABILITY for HIM, not some ridiculous theory of transparent spacetimes just to fit into a limited model of the universe
another "Maybe". and now we are aperently dealing with transcluscent walls, as if that means anything when it comes to different spaces
You realize that's what I'm doing right? What the anime actually shows, does not corroborate the guides. Guides can only be used if they don't contradict. They contradict. They do not get to be used.or MAYBE, we take the simple, common sensical and clear facts that we can ALL see? that the universal model the anime uses does NOT show the other realms and as such, can NOT be used in discussions about the entire cosmology of the macrocosm? instead of a multitude of offshore assumptions such as transclusent spacetimes, or realms being hidden behind galaxy No. 9000
Toei hard confirmed model and uni afterlife. Manga seems to be model. It is simply the DBS anime that I have issue with it.just to be clear, is this for the dbs anime?
Ofcjust to be clear, is this for the dbs anime?
so, we do indeed have a macrocosm model for the entire structure for the anime as well, which literally shows ass the realms and regions. Why anyone would want to use a model that clearly only showed the physical universe, is beyond me. Anyway, I don't think any side is going to convince the other at this point.
OOOOOOHHHHHH you back in the higher ups eh? congratsI guess ya gotta put me in the votes now huh
My thoughts align with this.Alright, this is just hard evidence now. We can conclusively state that the DBS Manga, Toei anime and original manga all treat the Afterlife as a Low 2-C realm (Dimensional walls + cosmological model specifically depicts the Afterlife as the upper half of the macrocosm). So now we're back at the drawing board with the Super Shenron scene.
Personally I would interpret it as just a poorly animated outlier that contradicts everything else but at the same time it isn't impossible for a new story to contradict and replace a previous story's cosmology. That's why I'm not willing to just rule it out entirely. Because I do see where people are coming from there.
What we need right now is something heavy-hitting specifically from the DBS Anime continuity. The good thing is if that whole "4D constructs are inherently Low 2-C" thing passes we will get 2-C DBS Anime back eventually.
So you agree with 2c macrocosm and low 2c afterlife for animeMy thoughts align with this.
Yes.So you agree with 2c macrocosm and low 2c afterlife for anime
well, that is still saying how much the Super Shenron scene cannot be ruled out, so do you agree with a full Low 2-C rating for the afterlife for the DBS Anime?My thoughts align with this.
well, that is still saying how much the Super Shenron scene cannot be ruled out, so do you agree with a full Low 2-C rating for the afterlife for the DBS Anime?sorry if spoon fed is too much, but the wording in the post you are quoting makes me a little confused about your vote, sorry
Don't we have calculations that make the Kaioshin realm the size of the Universe? I remember there being something like that, because it was the size of the afterlife and the living Universengl I think the whole arguing whether kaioshin realm is another dimension or not is kinda silly when it clearly is
I think that only works when we accept universe sized heavenDon't we have calculations that make the Kaioshin realm the size of the Universe? I remember there being something like that, because it was the size of the afterlife and the living Universe
I see, so we have three votes for it to be the size of the Universe, now all that's left to do is pass, then we'll have 3 Universal-sized space-times back.I think that only works when we accept universe sized heaven
Bros finally spittingngl I think the whole arguing whether kaioshin realm is another dimension or not is kinda silly when it clearly is
1 vote for a likely rating based on the cosmos scan, 2 for a straight ratings based on that + more, and 2 against it being universal in generalI see, so we have three votes for it to be the size of the Universe, now all that's left to do is pass, then we'll have 3 Universal-sized space-times back.
Honestly, that wasn't even necessary, since it would be accepted back and we'll still be left with 3 space-time.
Only 1 left for this to be accepted1 vote for a likely rating based on the cosmos scan, 2 for a straight ratings based on that + more, and 2 against it being universal in general
not enough for application no matter how you slice it
Yes, you can do calculations and you can make the Kaioshin realm the size of the Universe, in fact, it already is, but if heaven is accepted the Kaioshin realm becomes Universal size, we already have calculations for him accepted , it's just a matter of time.also..........no? the afterlife being universal doesn't make Kaioshin realm universal............Heaven was the universal thing making the calc for the afterlife size, but that is out of the picture now