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Dragon Ball Heroes Special Ki Additions

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So no actual counter argument for the fact that destroying Time Scroll is needed to destroy concept, which means it can't be conceptual hax because the concept can't be straight up erased without influencing other things at all, something that anyone with conceptual destruction must be able to do; as well as the fact that we generally don't assume killing/getting rid of an AE being is hax, we will treat it is as NPI feat only.

And Janemba can't be both evil thought and evil concept at the same time, the evil concept is what makes things like evil thoughts and evil actions having their meanings, so they're completely separate rather than coexisting. Although I can see the evil idea being the concept here, I don't know why we don't take the contradiction into account.
 
Delta333 said:
So no actual counter argument for the fact that destroying Time Scroll is needed to destroy concept, which means it can't be conceptual hax because the concept can't be straight up erased without influencing other things at all, something that anyone with conceptual destruction must be able to do; as well as the fact that we generally don't assume killing/getting rid of an AE being is hax, we will treat it is as NPI feat only.
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1. Only Sealas stated he need to do so. But again i will repeat the thing is. Time Scroll was created from Time Power, or you can it Time Scroll is a manifestation of Time Power, which only Time Power can straight up do anything to the scroll.
2. Well for the sake of arguments. Time Power can directly erase things contain in Time Scroll
3. No, we don't assume killing AE being Conceptual hax, like @Dagoth_OwO said, only Time Power users, Fu and arguably Fused Sealas get it, everyone else get upgraded NPI if they have feats interacting with Janemba
Delta333 said:
And Janemba can't be both evil thought and evil concept at the same time, the evil concept is what makes things like evil thoughts and evil actions having their meanings, so they're completely separate rather than coexisting. Although I can see the evil idea being the concept here, I don't know why we don't take the contradiction into account.
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Actually, we translated original japanese contexts and they gave both results Evil Thoughts along with Evil Ideas. So with the context of the verse itself, Evil Ideas is the thing, as scan directly stated Janemba being Evil Ideas, Xenoverse scan directly stated him being pure evil. Also in dictionary, Thoughts also being synonyms with/interchangeable with Ideas, Concepts.

Anyway i'm going to sleep now
 
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Vietthai96 said:
1. Only Sealas stated he need to do so. But again i will repeat the thing is. Time Scroll was created from Time Power, or you can it Time Scroll is a manifestation of Time Power, which only Time Power can straight up do anything to the scroll.
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Is there any specific evidence to show that characters can influence the concept within the scroll? Because saying "can straight up do anything to the scroll" is kind of broad for me.
Vietthai96 said:
2. Well for the sake of arguments. Time Power can directly erase things contain in Time Scroll
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Not sure if I understand the context correctly, but according to this they only erase the Demon Realm and it's not concept?
Vietthai96 said:
3. No, we don't assume killing AE being Conceptual hax, like @Dagoth_OwO said, only Time Power users, Fu and arguably Fused Sealas get it, everyone else get upgraded NPI if they have feats interacting with Janemba
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But you say that destroying the concept of evil is conceptual hax and Janemba is concept of evil right?
Vietthai96 said:
Actually, we translated original japanese contexts and they gave both results Evil Thoughts along with Evil Ideas. So with the context of the verse itself, Evil Ideas is the thing, as scan directly stated Janemba being Evil Ideas, Xenoverse scan directly stated him being pure evil. Also in dictionary, Thoughts also being synonyms with/interchangeable with Ideas, Concepts.
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They may be the same in some special circumstances, but like I said we don't generally treat them like that, i.e if someone controls thought we will just say that it's mind hax instead of conceptual hax.
 
@Vietthai96 I'm not ignoring shit when I'm using your own pages, also why are you making changes on the pages in the middle of the discussion?

His last comment wasn't responded to for whatever reason.

Where? Because you have no scans on the time power for Age Manipulation on time powers here. Also I'm waiting for the other abilities to be addressed as well.

Are you paying attention to anything I'm saying or are you trying to cherry pick my points right now? You have not proven concepts and information is a necessity to destroy the time scrolls, and Sealas doesn't prove your point when Ahms' only used to combat the time patrol, not destroy the time scrolls.

Did you bother reading Dagoth's links at all? Cause it's right here for DDM on concept hax.
He conceded on my point with concept hax in general scaling to destroying the time scrolls, read the actual argument I've made against his point because I'm arguing against time scrolls destroying concepts as proof for everyone who affects time scrolls to affect concepts and information.

Congratulations on strawmanning me once again, can't go one debate without more than a single strawman from you guys. I never once said they agreed with me on everything, I said they agreed with me on information hax not scaling, which has the exact same reasoning for concept hax scaling (destroying time scrolls).

Also are you going to bother addressing my other comments at all for the special ki abilities or are you just going to ignore it completely? Because the sooner you address these points I have and give me some proof the sooner we can finish this thread.
 
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Everybody please try to calm down, be respectful, and collaborate here. I am not able to devote sufficient time here to properly keep track, so it would be good if you can try to reach some kind of objective and rational agreement.
 
It's kind of hard to collaborate when the other side isn't responding to a good chunk of my points for the other special ki stuff. If they can please respond to my comment so we can come to an agreement we'd be finished with the thread sooner than later.
 
Theglassman12 said:
It's kind of hard to collaborate when the other side isn't responding to a good chunk of my points for the other special ki stuff. If they can please respond to my comment so we can come to an agreement we'd be finished with the thread sooner than later.
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Would the rest of you be willing to collaborate please?
 
I'm not sure what's going on. But I recall me and Griffin had doubts about Information Manipulation, but a more recent scan convinced us both iirc, but not sure what else changed from my last agreement.
 
Would the rest of you here be willing to explain in easy to understand manners please?
 
For the record, I've been a bit busy with real life stuff among other things (also the Forum has been lagging very often, not sure if I'm the only one with this issue), so I haven't had the time to properly respond here. I'll quickly link my explanation and proof/scans for information manip below and I'll try to come back later for Conceptual manipulation unless someone does it first, as I'll still be somewhat busy for the rest of the week.
Dagoth_OwO said:
Tokipedia and the Time Scrolls are the same. Tokipedia is a Time Scroll created by Fu for the sole purpose of recording Time Rifts, since Chronoa has chosen not to record them, due to rifts being separated from their own history. The Tokipedia is visually shown to be a Time Scroll which can record and contain history itself and Fu was explicitly stated to have accurately replicated the Time Scrolls to create the Tokipedia, making it an accurate copy of a Time Scroll. The Time Scrolls have also shown feats of being capable of recording and containing Time Rifts just like the Tokipedia, which debunks the argument that they're not same, as both can record Time Rifts just fine. It's just a matter of whether Chronoa chooses to record Time Rifts or not.

Since the Tokipedia and Time Scrolls have been established to be the same, all the properties of the Tokipedia would scale to the Time Scrolls. The first property is the fact the Tokipedia records literal data/information in it, proving that we're dealing with literal information here. The second property is that this same data/information is completely unaffected by Fu literally erasing and resetting time multiple times over, meaning that not even literally erasing time itself can affect the Scrolls and their records/data/information. Since the records/data/information of the scrolls cannot be destroyed by any normal means as shown with Fu's EE feat not being able to erase the information of the Tokipedia, this would mean that directly affecting the data/records themselves contained in the scrolls is required to destroy it and the timeline they contain/record. The only ones who have had the power to affect the data/information/records of a Time Scroll are Time Power users like Chronoa, Fu who created the Tokipedia and Fused Sealas, who was going to destroy and rewrite reality to exclude evil itself by burning the Time Scrolls after merging and gaining the power of Ahms, his personal AI.
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Here's all the arguments and scans for info manip. Simply put, Tokipedia contains the data/information of history, and the information/records that Tokipedia contains cannot be destroyed by any normal means as even literal time erasure failed to destroy the Tokipedia and its information, debunking the notion of chain-reaction. The Time Scrolls scale to the Tokipedia and its properties, due to a plethora of evidence, feats and statements proving that they're similar. The same recorded information can be used to destroy and rewrite the reality that the scrolls record, like with Sealas who was going to destroy and rewrite reality by burning the scrolls, and with the Supreme Kai's of Time/Time Power users who can erase the records of a Time Scroll, thus erasing the timeline they record and contain. Only a very few individuals would have information manipulation, as only a very few individuals are actually capable of manipulating the Time Scrolls and their records/information directly, as even time erasure/resetting can't affect the scrolls and their records.
 
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@Greatsage13th if you're going to throw ad hominems in this thread one more time I will report you, so either actually contribute to the discussion or don't say anything.

@DarkDragonMedeus Griffin conceded on the conceptual arguments when it comes to nuking the time scrolls, which also applies to the information hax since the main argument for the characters having both is them destroying the time scrolls, read my response to Griffin about that for elaboration. Right now I'm trying to move the discussion to the other abilities in the special ki pages and I've barely got much response beyond age manipulation since we've gotten enough staff input on the time scroll stuff.

Also can any of you guys actually respond to my post on the other special ki abilities or am I gonna get the cold shoulder treatment for them this entire thread? If they're not going to be argued at all by the end of the weekend then I might as well call some other folks to agree or disagree.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Greatsage13th if you're going to throw ad hominems in this thread one more time I will report you, so either actually contribute to the discussion or don't say anything.

@DarkDragonMedeus Griffin conceded on the conceptual arguments when it comes to nuking the time scrolls, which also applies to the information hax since the main argument for the characters having both is them destroying the time scrolls, read my response to Griffin about that for elaboration. Right now I'm trying to move the discussion to the other abilities in the special ki pages and I've barely got much response beyond age manipulation since we've gotten enough staff input on the time scroll stuff.

Also can any of you guys actually respond to my post on the other special ki abilities or am I gonna get the cold shoulder treatment for them this entire thread? If they're not going to be argued at all by the end of the weekend then I might as well call some other folks to agree or disagree.
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I can’t really explain the conceptual manipulation argument but I can for information manipulation and age manipulation basically destroying the scrolls themselves don’t do anything but destroying the content of the scrolls does something basically to affect it you need to affect the actual information that stores the timeline to affect it and simply destroying the scroll does nothing and the argument for age manipulation is because dark she shenron used a wish to make someone younger
 
godofice said:
I can’t really explain the conceptual manipulation argument but I can for information manipulation and age manipulation basically destroying the scrolls themselves don’t do anything but destroying the content of the scrolls does something basically to affect it you need to affect the actual information that stores the timeline to affect it and simply destroying the scroll does nothing and the argument for age manipulation is because dark she shenron used a wish to make someone younger
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Concept manipulation has been accepted so no need to bring that up. Information manipulation should be a clear cut thing, anything stored in a scroll should naturally be information. You destroy the contents of the scroll, the information gets destroyed. Simple as that.
 
Greatsage13th said:
Concept manipulation has been accepted so no need to bring that up. Information manipulation should be a clear cut thing, anything stored in a scroll should naturally be information. You destroy the contents of the scroll, the information gets destroyed. Simple as that.
Click to expand...
My bad but yeah Ive Been reading this thread and I don’t know why he keeps mentioning the age manipulation I saw a scan for it a couple pages back and the reason for information manipulation makes sense to me I don’t see what his counter to it is
 
Greatsage13th said:
Concept manipulation has been accepted so no need to bring that up. Information manipulation should be a clear cut thing, anything stored in a scroll should naturally be information. You destroy the contents of the scroll, the information gets destroyed. Simple as that.
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It hasn't been accepted, and I would love to see you counter for just only one of many arguments that I make
 
Greatsage13th said:
Define ad hominems
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It is when someone attacks the person making the argument instead of tackling the argument and/or attempts to straight up blow up all over an argument that comes of as passively attacking the user rather than peacefully taking it apart piece by piece.

Anyway, I suppose the time scrolls part makes sense on the other hand. So I guess Delta makes sense above.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
It is when someone attacks the person making the argument instead of tackling the argument and/or attempts to straight up blow up all over an argument that comes of as passively attacking the user rather than peacefully taking it apart piece by piece.

Anyway, I suppose the time scrolls part makes sense on the other hand. So I guess Delta makes sense above.
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Huh...I see.
 
@godofice Main problem with your argument is there's no scans to prove concepts and information hax is a requirement to affect the time scrolls, that's kind of necessary to have characters who affect time scrolls automatically get these abilities since you'd need extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims, also no that's not the age manipulation I'm referring to, I'm referring to the Time Power having age hax, cause there's no scans whatsoever about the whole gogeta stuff in the explanation, not the dark shenron stuff.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@godofice Main problem with your argument is there's no scans to prove concepts and information hax is a requirement to affect the time scrolls, that's kind of necessary to have characters who affect time scrolls automatically get these abilities since you'd need extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims, also no that's not the age manipulation I'm referring to, I'm referring to the Time Power having age hax, cause there's no scans whatsoever about the whole gogeta stuff in the explanation, not the dark shenron stuff.
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I said I wasn’t arguing for the concepts I’m saying information hax Is needed to affect the time scrolls and I don‘t know what you mean by Gogeta having age hax
 
Information hax has the same argument for scaling as concept hax, and read my comment, I said TIME POWER for age hax because of affecting gogeta.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Information hax has the same argument for scaling as concept hax, and read my comment, I said TIME POWER for age hax because of affecting gogeta.
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Well I’m not the person to ask for the concept manipulation bit but I can explain the information Hax and Im assuming Time power for age Hax affecting gogeta might be speeding up their fusion time to make them defuse quicker (not sure but I understand the information manipulation argument)
 
Theglassman12 said:
Also can any of you guys actually respond to my post on the other special ki abilities or am I gonna get the cold shoulder treatment for them this entire thread? If they're not going to be argued at all by the end of the weekend then I might as well call some other folks to agree or disagree.
Click to expand...
Can you link to or quote that post for easier overview please?

This post seems to summarise the other side of the argument here:

 
Theglassman12 said:
Making a new post for this to make it easier to follow.

Age Manipulation (time power): Any scans on this?

Paralysis inducement (time power): Is there any scans to indicate that it's time power doing the paralysis because the gif doesn't really tell me much.

Reality Warping and Subjective reality (time power): None of the scans indicate reality warping, especially when the first scan is Fu needing the time bird with demon realm ki in order to do it, and the rest is just maintaining timelines, which is just a sustaining feat at best and not literal reality warping. Where exactly in the Bardock/Mira scan is it implied that they can take one's desires and manifest it to reality because the clip doesn't show me anything about this.

Void hax and NPI (time power): Where's the statement that the crack of time is a literal void? Especially if the crack of time is a demon realm when it's just stated to be a space, not a literal void?

Durability Negation (time power): Any scans on the characters being able to bypass durability with affecting space time would be nice, cause there's no scans on that at all.

Purification (Time power): Is there any indication that the time powers can literally purify the demon powers here because again, time bird blowing up an area doesn't tell me much when he nukes the source of the demon fuckery and everything turns to normal.

Morality Manipulation (Dark Ki): Where in the scans does it say that they turn sides based on morality as opposed to it being just mind control? Especially when the scans say they're being mind controlled? Also nothing about the scans for enhanced dark ki imply it's more potent than before, especially when you're using Chronoa being corrupted as proof despite using her being corrupted as evidence for the weaker version of dark ki? None of that makes any sense here.

Radiation Hax (Dark Ki): Where's the proof it's the exact same thing as the Blutz wave? It literally just gives Vegeta SSJ4 and skips the entire Oozaru form, something the Blutz wave does in the first place so it's not even comparable.

Physics and Law hax (Dark Ki): Like I said, the scan literally shows Fu using the power of the dark demon realm and the time bird to do this in the first place. So this doesn't remotely count for dark ki, just something specific that Fu did.

Power Modification and Power null (Dark Ki): Nothing in the description remotely implies them actively modifying or nulling the powers, just changing the timeline, so unless they actually modify the powers or nullify it, this wouldn't count.

Resistance to Dark Ki (God Ki): The fact the time bird got affected by transmutation from dark ki despite being a god doesn't really tell me that they resist every single application of Dark Ki, at best this seems like they resist the mind control aspects of dark ki, not literally everything else.

Resistance to Possession (God Ki): The time bird and universe tree was the reason Goku resists this, so this isn't even a normal god ki resistance in the first place.

Resistance to Power Null (Dark Factor): The fact the dragon can nullify Mechi's mind control despite saying he can't do anything about it doesn't really make it consistent here, it's a contradiction if he can grant Demigra the ability to stop Mechi's mind control and also just the same old dragon balls rule of not affecting beings stronger than them.

Resistance to Memory Hax (Dark Factor): Any scans on the Dark Factor resisting Android 21's waves? Cause nothing's there, also what about seeing your memories remotely imply a resistance if he doesn't resist his memories being tinkered in the scans?

Resistance to Space hax (Dark Factor): Nothing about this is warping space, just reversing time.

Resistance to reality warping (Dark Factor): What part of this is a resistance if it just affects the environment and not the people itself?

Corrosion Inducement (Destruction Ki): Nothing about Beerus and Champa's fight is corrosion, just more deconstruction/EE given their powers.

Paralysis and Telekinesis (Destruction Ki): Which one is it, telekinesis or paralysis cause you can't have both while claiming it's a telekinesis, also a gif would be nice.

Mind and Morality hax (Evil ki): Is it even mind control or morality hax when the scans are literally just goku and vegeta going insane with the ki?

Limited Power absorption/nullification (evil ki): The scan seems weird, this just looks like the ki overpowered Vegeta's ki, not that it absorbed or nullified the energy for Vegeta.

Also why are you guys using this scan for both Dark factor AND Dark Ki despite saying the former is better than the latter? Doesn't make it consistent here.

Also just a side tangent in general, but the Dark Factor and Evil Ki shouldn't be on the verse page given with new rules stated you need at least 5 users of the same ability for it to register as a standalone page. So Cumber's stuff shouldn't even be there, same applies to Dark Factor when Mechi and Fu are the only ones who scale to this.
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@Antvasima literally this entire post here.
 
I just want to point out, that just being abstract does not make something conceptual (for our purposes) in nature, concepts are abstract yes, but, not all abstract things are concepts.
Using what is mentioned here, evil, evil as an idea is abstract yes, but that does not then necessitate it being a fundamental concept of reality.
At best I can currently see evil for DBH being a type 3 concept of the mental variety, but if it qualifies for that is not my issue right now.
 
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