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Dragon Ball Heroes Special Ki Additions

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Theglassman12 said:
Making an alternate reality based on what someone wants to do at best just sounds like reality warping, if it was actual subjective reality then it wouldn't be showing Trunks actively trying to save gohan, it would just have trunk's thoughts on Gohan being saved come to reality as Gohan would appear out of nowhere without dying.
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there really isn't any moment I made it clear it was trunks who except gohan and implies much more than it was ave tokitoki
 
Theglassman12 said:
Making an alternate reality based on what someone wants to do at best just sounds like reality warping, if it was actual subjective reality then it wouldn't be showing Trunks actively trying to save gohan, it would just have trunk's thoughts on Gohan being saved come to reality as Gohan would appear out of nowhere without dying.
Click to expand...
could show some scan trunks trying to save gohan
 
@Theglassman12

Can you explain the conclusions here so far, as well as the arguments for what still has to be decided here, in easy to understand manners please? I might be able to help out with evaluations in that case.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Vietthai96 that's not really evidence of it being a literal void, being outside of time doesn't mean you lack existence, that's never been a thing on the wiki. Same with it being a dimension, that still implies it exists physically, as opposed to it being nonexistent. The place being dark is a non argument here, other forms of fiction have different colors when referring to complete nothingness or nihility.
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Alright, what about this realm, not stated to be a void, but it stated to be never exist, have no history at all, and obviously lack space-time
 
Delta333 said:
You can lack both past and future (like acau 2) and still have nothing to do with NEP, let alone just history like this case.
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actually it is, because that realm literally stated to be non-exist at all, lacking a history is a properties of that realm which also lacking spatial and temporal axis
And from NEP page:
lack some other fundamental aspect that would be necessary for a normal being's existence or have a nonexistent one. Examples would include things like lacking a history
Click to expand...
 
No, acau type 2 doesn't have NEP by default (like Mighty Novel X, and there are more), NEP page says that lacking history can be considered as qualifying for aspect type 5 of NEP instead of a requirement for any three types of nature, the essential condition is still being void in the first place.
 
Delta333 said:
No, acau type 2 doesn't have NEP by default (like Mighty Novel X, and there are more), NEP page says that lacking history can be considered as qualifying for aspect type 5 of NEP instead of a requirement for any three types of nature, the essential condition is still being void in the first place.
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carecer de algún otro aspecto fundamental que sería necesario para la existencia de un ser normal o tener uno inexistente. Los ejemplos incluirían cosas como la falta de antecedentes
it is literal what it says page gods demons and their kingdom exist without a fundamental part as the history of dragon ball see that it is everything
 
Delta333 said:
No, acau type 2 doesn't have NEP by default (like Mighty Novel X, and there are more), NEP page says that lacking history can be considered as qualifying for aspect type 5 of NEP instead of a requirement for any three types of nature, the essential condition is still being void in the first place.
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Acau type 2 is the lack of past and future but still has the present. Don't mix it up.
 
Vietthai96 said:
Context: history = timeline = space-time. It is a nonexistent realm, the scan also said it already, a place that never exist
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The scan says that a place that never exists in history, although I may think NEP is fine if history here actually refers to entire past, present and future.
 
Delta333 said:
The scan says that a place that never exists in history, although I may think NEP is fine if history here actually refers to entire past, present and future.
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It is the verse contexts, history, time, timeline (past, present and future) are the same. Non-existent history also mean non-existent timeline, etc......

Also, the scan stated: a place that has never existed. Never existed mean it is already not exist at all
 
@Vietthai96 Isn't that just the demon realm which exists outside of time though? If it is then I'm not sure if it would count as it being a literal void or literal nothingness. Also if you don't mind can you post the japanese raws as well so I can double check on the translation?
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Vietthai96 Isn't that just the demon realm which exists outside of time though? If it is then I'm not sure if it would count as it being a literal void or literal nothingness. Also if you don't mind can you post the japanese raws as well so I can double check on the translation?
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Uh no, Demon Realm is not that place. Demon Realm is a realm which disconnected, sealed off from ordinary flow of time. this is the Demon Realm. outside of time is when Chronoa use Time Labyrinth to throw it out of time (and multiverse) into the Crack of Time (crack of time is also a realm outside of time) and totally seal it off.

This is the place has that never exist

Manga chapter 1 (where the place in question first appear) recap, that placed is directly called non-existent history

Original Japanese texts: 存在しない歴史

Google Translation
Click to expand...

Also in manga they always show the name of the realm, place, dimension like Crack of Time, Hell or Dark Demon Realm. However the "place has that never exist" has no name, so it cannot be Demon Realm or other places
 
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@Theglassman12 Not really. Loli Chronoa is Adult Chronoa. If she was actually manipulating her age then she'd logically turn into an old woman, due to already being a "grown-up" adult in her base. She's basically just altering her physique, nothing more.

I disagree. The castle is just that, a castle. It was already collapsing before Tokitoki hit it, so there'd be no point to simply destroy just the castle itself as it's already falling apart on it's own, if he wanted to purify the Demon Realm.
 
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Antvasima said:
@Theglassman12

Can you explain the conclusions here so far, as well as the arguments for what still has to be decided here, in easy to understand manners please? I might be able to help out with evaluations in that case.
Click to expand...
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Vietthai96 I'm asking for the japanese raws, AKA can you post the japanese text here so I can get it double checked?

@Dagoth_OwO Through time powers which again doesn't really prove age resistance, especially when Fu de-aged with the time powers with him.

@Antvasima Just go back to this post here. I'm updating it as we go along.
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But fu didn't age after having the powers of time to himself, in fact he stays in that kid form until his death against goku.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Vietthai96 I'm asking for the japanese raws, AKA can you post the japanese text here so I can get it double checked?
Click to expand...
here

Theglassman12 said:
@Dagoth_OwO Through time powers which again doesn't really prove age resistance, especially when Fu de-aged with the time powers with him.
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No, he got de-aged when he still a Dark King, Dogidogi came to help, he absorbed the bird, and resist Tokitoki's ability that de-aged him
 
@Gogeta that doesn't really answer my question on how they resist age hax.

@Vietthai96 Thanks for the japanese raws, it does say doesn't exist in the kanji, though is there any feats of time power being able to affect that entire realm? If so I'd like some scans for that, then I'd be ok with NPI on voids so long as the evidence exists.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Gogeta that doesn't really answer my question on how they resist age hax.

@Vietthai96 Thanks for the japanese raws, it does say doesn't exist in the kanji, though is there any feats of time power being able to affect that entire realm? If so I'd like some scans for that, then I'd be ok with NPI on voids so long as the evidence exists.
Click to expand...
For the age resistance
Vietthai96 said:
here


No, he got de-aged when he still a Dark King, Dogidogi came to help, he absorbed the bird, and resist Tokitoki's ability that de-aged him
Click to expand...

this might help
 
also bout this
cnKJoef.png


i dont think this is really needed. since you can just put "Dark and God KI manipulation.". really aint worth a whole section of the page.
 
Theglassman12 said:
Making a new post for this to make it easier to follow.

Age Manipulation (time power): Any scans on this? DONE

Paralysis inducement (time power): [/B]Is there any scans to indicate that it's time power doing the paralysis because the gif doesn't really tell me much. DONE

Reality Warping and Subjective reality (time power): None of the scans indicate reality warping, especially when the first scan is Fu needing the time bird with demon realm ki in order to do it, and the rest is just maintaining timelines, which is just a sustaining feat at best and not literal reality warping. Where exactly in the Bardock/Mira scan is it implied that they can take one's desires and manifest it to reality because the clip doesn't show me anything about this.

Void hax and NPI (time power): Where's the statement that the crack of time is a literal void? Especially if the crack of time is a demon realm when it's just stated to be a space, not a literal void?

Durability Negation (time power): Any scans on the characters being able to bypass durability with affecting space time would be nice, cause there's no scans on that at all. DONE

Purification (Time power): Is there any indication that the time powers can literally purify the demon powers here because again, time bird blowing up an area doesn't tell me much when he nukes the source of the demon fuckery and everything turns to normal.

Morality Manipulation (Dark Ki): Where in the scans does it say that they turn sides based on morality as opposed to it being just mind control? Especially when the scans say they're being mind controlled? Also nothing about the scans for enhanced dark ki imply it's more potent than before, especially when you're using Chronoa being corrupted as proof despite using her being corrupted as evidence for the weaker version of dark ki? None of that makes any sense here. DONE

Radiation Hax (Dark Ki): Where's the proof it's the exact same thing as the Blutz wave? It literally just gives Vegeta SSJ4 and skips the entire Oozaru form, something the Blutz wave does in the first place so it's not even comparable.

Physics and Law hax (Dark Ki): Like I said, the scan literally shows Fu using the power of the dark demon realm and the time bird to do this in the first place. So this doesn't remotely count for dark ki, just something specific that Fu did.

Power Modification and Power null (Dark Ki): Nothing in the description remotely implies them actively modifying or nulling the powers, just changing the timeline, so unless they actually modify the powers or nullify it, this wouldn't count.

Resistance to Dark Ki (God Ki): The fact the time bird got affected by transmutation from dark ki despite being a god doesn't really tell me that they resist every single application of Dark Ki, at best this seems like they resist the mind control aspects of dark ki, not literally everything else.

Resistance to Possession (God Ki): The time bird and universe tree was the reason Goku resists this, so this isn't even a normal god ki resistance in the first place.

Resistance to Power Null (Dark Factor): The fact the dragon can nullify Mechi's mind control despite saying he can't do anything about it doesn't really make it consistent here, it's a contradiction if he can grant Demigra the ability to stop Mechi's mind control and also just the same old dragon balls rule of not affecting beings stronger than them.

Resistance to Memory Hax (Dark Factor): Any scans on the Dark Factor resisting Android 21's waves? Cause nothing's there, also what about seeing your memories remotely imply a resistance if he doesn't resist his memories being tinkered in the scans?

Resistance to Space hax (Dark Factor): Nothing about this is warping space, just reversing time.

Resistance to reality warping (Dark Factor): What part of this is a resistance if it just affects the environment and not the people itself?

Corrosion Inducement (Destruction Ki): Nothing about Beerus and Champa's fight is corrosion, just more deconstruction/EE given their powers.

Paralysis and Telekinesis (Destruction Ki): Which one is it, telekinesis or paralysis cause you can't have both while claiming it's a telekinesis, also a gif would be nice.

Mind and Morality hax (Evil ki): Is it even mind control or morality hax when the scans are literally just goku and vegeta going insane with the ki?

Limited Power absorption/nullification (evil ki): The scan seems weird, this just looks like the ki overpowered Vegeta's ki, not that it absorbed or nullified the energy for Vegeta.

Also why are you guys using this scan for both Dark factor AND Dark Ki despite saying the former is better than the latter? Doesn't make it consistent here.

Also just a side tangent in general, but the Dark Factor and Evil Ki shouldn't be on the verse page given with new rules stated you need at least 5 users of the same ability for it to register as a standalone page. So Cumber's stuff shouldn't even be there, same applies to Dark Factor when Mechi and Fu are the only ones who scale to this.
Click to expand...
Would the opposing side of the discussion here be willing to provide a single post that explains all of their arguments as well, so I can ask for help from some staff members, please?
 
Theglassman12 said:
Thanks for the japanese raws, it does say doesn't exist in the kanji, though is there any feats of time power being able to affect that entire realm? If so I'd like some scans for that, then I'd be ok with NPI on voids so long as the evidence exists.
Click to expand...
Busy with work so i will do a quick response.
Well not directly, but Time Power is stated to be able to erase all histories, so it should including non-existent history since even though non-existent it is still a "history"
 
That sounds like an assumption more than proof that they can affect nonexistent things. If you have scans the nonexistent history can be affected by time power then sure, but if there is none then I don't really see this being enough proof for NPI.
 
it being nonexistent history or a "history that shouldn't exist" makes it not the same as any other history. If there exists any actual evidence of them being affect then I'd be fine with it being a thing, if not then then I don't see NPI being a thing.
 
So have you reached any agreements here?
 
Theglassman12 said:
it being nonexistent history or a "history that shouldn't exist" makes it not the same as any other history. If there exists any actual evidence of them being affect then I'd be fine with it being a thing, if not then then I don't see NPI being a thing.
Click to expand...
If it was stated that Time Power could destroy every history, why would the properties of a history matter? It's still a history
 
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