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I am currently discussing this proposal off-site, all I will note right now is that so far I am not convinced.
Vietthai96/sandbox1
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Dragon Ball Heroes Special Ki Additions
- Thread starter Vietthai96
- Start date
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Okay. Thank you for the evaluation.
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After reading the Sandbox for a bit. [Had to read it three times kek.] Count for agreement with The Sandbox's proposals.
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My concerns have been assuaged.
Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,242
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- Thread starter
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Yes, i have made changes according to Domino's guidance, just some minor errors
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We are waiting for DDM and Elizhaa to evaluate the sandbox.
Rabbit2002
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Bump
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That looks good to me.
Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,242
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- #92
The first sandbox in OP is Special Ki, i alreadt added its contents to Special Ki Manipulation (Dragon Ball) page
The second one is no need a wiki page, i will transfer it contents to a user blog because it is just an explanation blog to explain that the verse have Concept and Information
Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,242
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- #94
Yes, i will do so when i go home, currently working
Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,242
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- Thread starter
- #96
Nah, it is nothing, i created the revision thread and the sandbox so it is my responsibility anyway
After finishing my real life work, i will go home and apply the revision
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Alright this caught my eye and I have more than few questions about this upgrade as well as some of the other abilities for special ki.
Abstract Existence (Type 1): So where in this explanation remotely describes the time birds as a literal concept? The explanation mentions it being an embodiment of time, that's at best type 2 abstract, doesn't really help that there's no explanation for it lacking any physical form whatsoever, which is what qualifies for a type 1 abstract. And going off all the descriptions on the time bird, it's just stated to control time and only give birth to a new timeline, as opposed to all the timelines that exist, on top of its existence sounding a lot similar to the supreme kai's link with the gods of destruction where their deaths lead to the deaths of the gods. So I'm not really sure that would count as abstract here. Just more time hax for the time bird.
God Ki: Do you have any scans whatsoever about the bird having god ki at all? Because Beerus not recognizing it as a god or any statements of it having god ki doesn't really help anyone who's not familiar with the games. In fact is there any scans for these abilities the time bird grants because the only links
Power of Destruction resistance: Do you have any scans whatsoever that the universe tree was actively trying to use the destruction powers to kill the time bird? Because the scan on it being able to help goku despite being absorbed, which was the intent of the tree.
Concept type 1: Idk what exactly gave you the idea that evil energy makes it a concept at all but it doesn't. It just means it's energy from evil beings who had to be purified, and Janemba is just the manifestation of all the evil energy. Not only that but energy as a whole doesn't have a physical form in a general sense so it doesn't prove it being a concept, let alone it being a type 1 concept. Not even the time scrolls are implied to be independant from reality as it's the reason the timelines exist to begin with. Mechikabura absorbing time doesn't really help on the type 1 aspect given that time is reborn from the eggs which creates reality alongside time, making it more of a type 2 concept than a type 1.
Information manipulation: So how in any way shape or form does "record history and timelines" remotely means they control literal information itself? Especially when you're using the term "record" here wrong when you use it as a verb as opposed to it being a noun, cause recording history and timelines is not the same thing as containing records, and even then that's not enough to warrant information manipulation at all. Also a good chunk of the information scans just merged the same scans together so it looks like a mess to find the newer scans.
In fact some of the stuff on time powers and the special ki pages look a bit weird so I'm going by them one by one.
space time manipulation and higher dimensional manipulation: Given all the scans that's given here, this heavily seems like a time bird thing only given everyone else having some time powers don't remotely mention controlling the entire space time continuum, just being able to wander through time easily. On top of all of Chronoa's scans here doesn't really make it sound like this applies to everyone else and it's just a thing for her to control time. Hell Demigra mentions having absorbed the time bird's power allows him to control all of time and space, and this guy just mentions he can reduce the time of the entire universe to 0 thanks to having the time bird's power, so I'm not sure why this would scale to anyone with time powers and not just the time bird.
Creation: Again, same as above, this seems like a time bird thing only as opposed to something that scales to everyone with time powers.
Memory manipulation: So where's the scan on them erasing memories specifically with time powers here? Because there's nothing here. The second scan seems fine enough.
Paralysis Inducement: Same as above, is there any statements at all that it's time power that's doing this?
Causality, and Fate hax: So what exactly about this scan implies causality hax? This looks like power nullification or statistics reduction. Same with the whole fate hax thing as "that's their fate" doesn't sound literal fate hax as the user just destroyed a time scroll which lead to the destruction of a timeline, as opposed to literally controlling the fates of others.
Existence erasure: Again, this looks like a chain reaction effect of erasing the time scrolls resulting in the erasure of the timeline given how important they are to the stories. Demigra's statement and Aios' stuff has more validity with this than the time scrolls but this can just be a timebird and kaioshin of time ability than a normal time power for everyone.
Reality Warping and Subjective reality: Since when did keeping the timelines/universes intact automatically means they can warp reality? None of this remotely mentions warping the fabric of reality with time powers. Subjective reality needs a scan since there's nothing here to justify it.
Void Manipulation: Got any scans on the crack of time being a void? Cause nothing's there.
Durability Negation: Scans for space time stuff here being used to negate durability? Also the concepts and information stuff doesn't apply here at all when it's literally a chain reaction event from the scrolls.
Non-Physical interaction: Why would the time scrolls which have no statements whatsoever of lacking a physical form be an argument for NPI? Let alone affecting concepts and information? Nothing about this implies NPI. Also scans for affecting voids again? This so far is the only saving grace I see for NPI on the page but the lack of scans doesn't really help here.
Resistance Negation: Yeah this is a hard no for me, having stronger hax (which nothing about this implies) indicates any form of resistance negation to time powers. The page itself specifically stated that just overpowering one's resistance with stronger hax does not qualify for res negging whatsoever.
Acausality negation: This honestly needs to be reworded to just being "can affect type 4 Acausal beings". Negating type 4 would imply the time bird being able to bring the demons back into the normal flow of time, rendering them susceptible to paradoxes. Also again, looks like a time bird thing, not a time powers in general thing.
Purification: Is this really purification? The time bird just destroyed whatever that was when transforming. Nothing about that implies any purification that cures people from status ailments or anything.
Damage Manipulation, Statistics manipulation, Accelerated Development, Adaptation and RE negation: Again, looks more like power nulling/statistics reduction here than negation. Especially when it mentions it's due to energy used here so what part of this implies the last 3 abilities being negated?
Resistance: Again, only implied to be possible with the time bird, not with normal time users who aren't on the same level as the time bird given how big of a deal he is.
That's all I got for time powers, onto the next one.
Illusion Creation and Perception hax: So what about this is remotely implied in the scans here? It's only mentioned mind control, that's it, no illusions or perceptions.
Incorporeality: This isn't incorporeal, briefly turning into an energy storm is just intangibility at best, Incorporeal is only for being who naturally lack a physical form.
Radiation Hax: Why is this remotely considered radiation hax? Nothing about this is remotely implied or stated to be the blutz wave when Vegeta just went straight into SSJ4 without the monkey form, something that the blutz wave did to vegeta in GT. So yeah unless there's actual statements that dark ki functions exactly like the blutz wave, this is a hard no for me.
Corruption, Morality and Madness hax: The scans here literally have statements of the characters being brainwashed/mind controlled by the dark ki. Nothing about this implies the 3 abilities listed there.
Physics and Law hax: This again has a statement of the demon god's power and the time bird's power, meaning it's not something normal dark ki users have, so the whole "real world stuff and fu's world being affected" part shouldn't apply here. Dark Shenron sounds more like a specific thing for shenron than all dark ki users if Fu needs the time bird to do this.
Causality, Probability and Fate hax: What part of these scans imply rewriting fate or probability or cause and effect as a whole? A lot of this just screams space time warping to the point of bringing alternate versions of characters from different timelines as oppose to rewriting all of these abilities to make this happen.
Power Modification and Nullification: This sounds more like a chain reaction of altering the timeline as opposed to making them weaker or modifying it to being stronger.
Space-Time and higher dimension: None of the demon world scans or fu's normal cuts would imply making or controlling a higher dimension, especially when the demon world is in a space that already existed prior to the demon world being a thing. the doors swallowing the worlds would be a better justification than these scans.
Why the **** does dark ki users resist Transformation of all abilities? Don't these dark ki users transform all the time? And has anyone other than Fu resisted the dark factor possession? Because this seems like a thing specific to him.
Space-Time Manipulation: The scan with whis doesn't mention anything about him making another space time, just more BFR.
Resistance to possession: Why is the universe tree scan being used when the time bird is what let Goku resist it in the first place?
Reality Warping: This just looks like more dragon ball energy shaking the world over literally warping the fabric of reality.
Resistance to attack reflection: scans please? nothing's there.
Resistance to Power nullification: You do realize the same scan that shenron claims he can't do anything about mechi's powers, he literally undoes his mind control right? This doesn't exactly help your case on him having enhanced resistance when his powers are affected by the wishes.
Resistance to Space and causality: This is just time resistance at best, where's the space hax and cause and effect being warped here?
Resistance to reality warping: Is this really a resistance because this just distorts the environment and not the target.
Paralysis and telekinesis: Is there a gif on this? Because it's not clear if it's doing both or one.
Corrosion inducement: Why is this corrosion and not just deconstruction/EE like hakai energy is?
Reality Warping: Making the world of void into a different color looks more like Void manipulation than full on reality warping here.
Everything else I haven't covered I either find ok or find redundant to cover as my same points apply there.
Abstract Existence (Type 1): So where in this explanation remotely describes the time birds as a literal concept? The explanation mentions it being an embodiment of time, that's at best type 2 abstract, doesn't really help that there's no explanation for it lacking any physical form whatsoever, which is what qualifies for a type 1 abstract. And going off all the descriptions on the time bird, it's just stated to control time and only give birth to a new timeline, as opposed to all the timelines that exist, on top of its existence sounding a lot similar to the supreme kai's link with the gods of destruction where their deaths lead to the deaths of the gods. So I'm not really sure that would count as abstract here. Just more time hax for the time bird.
God Ki: Do you have any scans whatsoever about the bird having god ki at all? Because Beerus not recognizing it as a god or any statements of it having god ki doesn't really help anyone who's not familiar with the games. In fact is there any scans for these abilities the time bird grants because the only links
Power of Destruction resistance: Do you have any scans whatsoever that the universe tree was actively trying to use the destruction powers to kill the time bird? Because the scan on it being able to help goku despite being absorbed, which was the intent of the tree.
Concept type 1: Idk what exactly gave you the idea that evil energy makes it a concept at all but it doesn't. It just means it's energy from evil beings who had to be purified, and Janemba is just the manifestation of all the evil energy. Not only that but energy as a whole doesn't have a physical form in a general sense so it doesn't prove it being a concept, let alone it being a type 1 concept. Not even the time scrolls are implied to be independant from reality as it's the reason the timelines exist to begin with. Mechikabura absorbing time doesn't really help on the type 1 aspect given that time is reborn from the eggs which creates reality alongside time, making it more of a type 2 concept than a type 1.
Information manipulation: So how in any way shape or form does "record history and timelines" remotely means they control literal information itself? Especially when you're using the term "record" here wrong when you use it as a verb as opposed to it being a noun, cause recording history and timelines is not the same thing as containing records, and even then that's not enough to warrant information manipulation at all. Also a good chunk of the information scans just merged the same scans together so it looks like a mess to find the newer scans.
In fact some of the stuff on time powers and the special ki pages look a bit weird so I'm going by them one by one.
space time manipulation and higher dimensional manipulation: Given all the scans that's given here, this heavily seems like a time bird thing only given everyone else having some time powers don't remotely mention controlling the entire space time continuum, just being able to wander through time easily. On top of all of Chronoa's scans here doesn't really make it sound like this applies to everyone else and it's just a thing for her to control time. Hell Demigra mentions having absorbed the time bird's power allows him to control all of time and space, and this guy just mentions he can reduce the time of the entire universe to 0 thanks to having the time bird's power, so I'm not sure why this would scale to anyone with time powers and not just the time bird.
Creation: Again, same as above, this seems like a time bird thing only as opposed to something that scales to everyone with time powers.
Memory manipulation: So where's the scan on them erasing memories specifically with time powers here? Because there's nothing here. The second scan seems fine enough.
Paralysis Inducement: Same as above, is there any statements at all that it's time power that's doing this?
Causality, and Fate hax: So what exactly about this scan implies causality hax? This looks like power nullification or statistics reduction. Same with the whole fate hax thing as "that's their fate" doesn't sound literal fate hax as the user just destroyed a time scroll which lead to the destruction of a timeline, as opposed to literally controlling the fates of others.
Existence erasure: Again, this looks like a chain reaction effect of erasing the time scrolls resulting in the erasure of the timeline given how important they are to the stories. Demigra's statement and Aios' stuff has more validity with this than the time scrolls but this can just be a timebird and kaioshin of time ability than a normal time power for everyone.
Reality Warping and Subjective reality: Since when did keeping the timelines/universes intact automatically means they can warp reality? None of this remotely mentions warping the fabric of reality with time powers. Subjective reality needs a scan since there's nothing here to justify it.
Void Manipulation: Got any scans on the crack of time being a void? Cause nothing's there.
Durability Negation: Scans for space time stuff here being used to negate durability? Also the concepts and information stuff doesn't apply here at all when it's literally a chain reaction event from the scrolls.
Non-Physical interaction: Why would the time scrolls which have no statements whatsoever of lacking a physical form be an argument for NPI? Let alone affecting concepts and information? Nothing about this implies NPI. Also scans for affecting voids again? This so far is the only saving grace I see for NPI on the page but the lack of scans doesn't really help here.
Resistance Negation: Yeah this is a hard no for me, having stronger hax (which nothing about this implies) indicates any form of resistance negation to time powers. The page itself specifically stated that just overpowering one's resistance with stronger hax does not qualify for res negging whatsoever.
Acausality negation: This honestly needs to be reworded to just being "can affect type 4 Acausal beings". Negating type 4 would imply the time bird being able to bring the demons back into the normal flow of time, rendering them susceptible to paradoxes. Also again, looks like a time bird thing, not a time powers in general thing.
Purification: Is this really purification? The time bird just destroyed whatever that was when transforming. Nothing about that implies any purification that cures people from status ailments or anything.
Damage Manipulation, Statistics manipulation, Accelerated Development, Adaptation and RE negation: Again, looks more like power nulling/statistics reduction here than negation. Especially when it mentions it's due to energy used here so what part of this implies the last 3 abilities being negated?
Resistance: Again, only implied to be possible with the time bird, not with normal time users who aren't on the same level as the time bird given how big of a deal he is.
That's all I got for time powers, onto the next one.
Illusion Creation and Perception hax: So what about this is remotely implied in the scans here? It's only mentioned mind control, that's it, no illusions or perceptions.
Incorporeality: This isn't incorporeal, briefly turning into an energy storm is just intangibility at best, Incorporeal is only for being who naturally lack a physical form.
Radiation Hax: Why is this remotely considered radiation hax? Nothing about this is remotely implied or stated to be the blutz wave when Vegeta just went straight into SSJ4 without the monkey form, something that the blutz wave did to vegeta in GT. So yeah unless there's actual statements that dark ki functions exactly like the blutz wave, this is a hard no for me.
Corruption, Morality and Madness hax: The scans here literally have statements of the characters being brainwashed/mind controlled by the dark ki. Nothing about this implies the 3 abilities listed there.
Physics and Law hax: This again has a statement of the demon god's power and the time bird's power, meaning it's not something normal dark ki users have, so the whole "real world stuff and fu's world being affected" part shouldn't apply here. Dark Shenron sounds more like a specific thing for shenron than all dark ki users if Fu needs the time bird to do this.
Causality, Probability and Fate hax: What part of these scans imply rewriting fate or probability or cause and effect as a whole? A lot of this just screams space time warping to the point of bringing alternate versions of characters from different timelines as oppose to rewriting all of these abilities to make this happen.
Power Modification and Nullification: This sounds more like a chain reaction of altering the timeline as opposed to making them weaker or modifying it to being stronger.
Space-Time and higher dimension: None of the demon world scans or fu's normal cuts would imply making or controlling a higher dimension, especially when the demon world is in a space that already existed prior to the demon world being a thing. the doors swallowing the worlds would be a better justification than these scans.
Why the **** does dark ki users resist Transformation of all abilities? Don't these dark ki users transform all the time? And has anyone other than Fu resisted the dark factor possession? Because this seems like a thing specific to him.
Space-Time Manipulation: The scan with whis doesn't mention anything about him making another space time, just more BFR.
Resistance to possession: Why is the universe tree scan being used when the time bird is what let Goku resist it in the first place?
Reality Warping: This just looks like more dragon ball energy shaking the world over literally warping the fabric of reality.
Resistance to attack reflection: scans please? nothing's there.
Resistance to Power nullification: You do realize the same scan that shenron claims he can't do anything about mechi's powers, he literally undoes his mind control right? This doesn't exactly help your case on him having enhanced resistance when his powers are affected by the wishes.
Resistance to Space and causality: This is just time resistance at best, where's the space hax and cause and effect being warped here?
Resistance to reality warping: Is this really a resistance because this just distorts the environment and not the target.
Paralysis and telekinesis: Is there a gif on this? Because it's not clear if it's doing both or one.
Corrosion inducement: Why is this corrosion and not just deconstruction/EE like hakai energy is?
Reality Warping: Making the world of void into a different color looks more like Void manipulation than full on reality warping here.
Everything else I haven't covered I either find ok or find redundant to cover as my same points apply there.
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To give a quick response before the others will no doubt give an elaborate answer, iirc all time power comes from the bird.
A distinction between demon physiology and dark ki users should probably be made but this wasn't allowed before IIRC.
Oh and Fu used blutz waves to transform Goku and Vegeta into SSJ4 in XV2.
This will probably solve a great deal of your concerns.
A distinction between demon physiology and dark ki users should probably be made but this wasn't allowed before IIRC.
Oh and Fu used blutz waves to transform Goku and Vegeta into SSJ4 in XV2.
This will probably solve a great deal of your concerns.
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"Spacetime techniques won't work on me, just like with you"
Space time techniques don't work on Time Power users. The Bird point doesn't hold up since Chronoa is leagues below TokiToki and DogiDogi.
Hakai Ki erases stuff on contact by nature. You can't touch that Ki without an adequate resistance, otherwise you'd get Erased.
This point, alongside the first one, is what makes me go mad, to the point i question the very nature/intent behind the post.
Because yes, arguing this literally shows that people have not played none of the Xenoverse games and have never watched Heroes in the first place.
People snapping, going mad and becoming evil and corrupted due to Dark Ki happens in... Pretty much every arc. And happens everywhere throughout Xenoverse.
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Tbf he never said mind-related abilities aren't valid, just that there are no scans for them. And he also said that the page isn't clear for people who aren't knowledgeable on the games.
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My bad then, it's just that it happens literally everywhere throughout Xenoverse and Heroes, so missing that is kinda difficult
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I hope so, but I'm confident that we will reach an agreement
Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,242
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- Thread starter
- #106
He was called God Bird, or Time God multiple times
They all used the same power:
https://imgur.com/a/x98MXf1
https://imgur.com/a/nJyj0xG
https://imgur.com/a/UX2Tvek
https://i.imgur.com/ahtEJqx.jpg
Keysword also got charnged with Time Power or Power of Time:
https://imgur.com/a/GvBhggK
https://imgur.com/a/GvBhggK
https://i.imgur.com/1TRQsWA.png
https://i.imgur.com/N7XE42S.png
Chronoa literally has a state called Power of Time Unleashed or Time Power Unleashed
Mechikabura also called her power: Time Power
https://imgur.com/a/idRc2Me
from here, Chronoa try to use space-time to attack Fu but well, obviously he resist it
1. Returned everything to initial state is not causality hax?????. Also the statistics part is game play mechanic
2. The scan also say Time and it is Agios power
3. Fu with that power revert everything to state of zero is not causality hax????
4. Time Power hold control over history and timeline, so.............. And Chronoa capable of adjusting history
5. "that's their fate" while it do sound kinda flowery when it stand alone, however it can change the outcome of history[21] according[21] to people's thoughts and desires[21] with its sheer presence/released aura, and it can also change the future/fate[21] with its power. The Tokitoki egg contain time energy and give birth to Tokitoki who using time power
Again like all of above, they used the same power, also Tokitoki is the reason for the existence of Supreme Kai of Time
And no not chain reaction at all because It can do this
Agios also have technique called Time Destruction, she used the same thing on Time Scroll. Even Sealas stated he need power to burn that scroll down, blast it normally did nothing to timeline
Also Fu plan to do this, no time scroll involve here
Here, i forgot to add it, there is also another two in Xenoverse but i forgot where it is
Space-time distortion. Also like the Time Power page said, all of the power users can distort space-time, timeline and history, scan laying all around, it is really easy to see. Subjective reality is also in Fate hax section, as they can change the future out come based on their thought and desire
Also the scan above for memory manip: Adjust history
It is from the causality card hax, but well your comment is fair since it could be nitpicking on my part, but anyway the power can null power via three ways, either directly seal them away or revert everything back to before opponent acquired power or power up, or just make it disappear
and Fu used Time Power on it:
Understandable, however the reason from my part is: Time Power also force Demon to be affected by time hax from it, as it is stated that Tokitoki dragged Fu to a time mess, which you already know that Demon already disconnected from flow of time thus should not be dragged back to time normally
Universal Energy System????. Time Power is UES, it prove resistance so when nulling it you also null its resistances?????. But anyway i can understand your points
Full contexts, Fu resist space-time power and said like Chronoa he resist the power
I need to go to sleep now since it is midnight in my country, and due to my work i don't have much time on PC so we will talking about Time Power first, we can talk about Concept blog and Dark Ki after we finish Time Power, if that fine to you Glassman
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Vietthai96
He/Him- 10,242
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- Thread starter
- #107
Forgot this but: Clear away the Darkness is not Purification??, He clean the entire Demon Realm......
Full video as he purified the Demon Realm
The last scan is CC Goku using Time Power given by Tokitoki to null away Fu's power null status effect on his teammate
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Fine with me, I'm gonna be somewhat busy today cause of IRL stuff, so I'll respond to this when I'm not busy.
@Ottavio_Merluzzo yeah that's my point, a good chunk of the abilities here have little to no scans that explains how and why they have these abilities. It's up to the knowledgeable folks to inform those not knowledgeable what powers they have and more importantly why they have it in the first place with evidence.
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Might aswell throw my few cents here
Supreme Kais of Time, Time Power Unleashed Mechikabura. the Time Birds and even Demigra are all "normal" Time Power users. They use the same Time Power/Ki to amp their raw stats, they use the same TP to utilize and enchance their abilities/techniques that they all share and can use like Freeze, Time Labyrinth, time dilation, etc....The only real difference with the Time Birds compared to other TP users is that Tokitoki's existence is actually connected to time, due to being born from the same Time Energy/Power of Time that all of these individuals use. Both Supreme Kais of Time and Time Birds are referred to as "Gods of Time" (Please keep in mind that "Supreme Kai of Time" literally translates to "World King God of Time"), with Demigra even explicitly trying to get his hands on Tokitoki's power in order to become the new Supreme Kai of Time, and the Time Power Unleashed state is literally just a stronger state of Time Power due to unleashing all of it at once as stated and shown by Chronoa. Time Power users utilize the same Time Power abilities, and weaker Time Power users can even utilize the exact same Time Power abilities that the Gods of Time use themselves (Demigra, a Time Power user who is not a Supreme Kai of Time nor a Time Bird, succesfully pulled off the Time Labyrinth, which is a Time God's ability as specifically stated, which literally just proves the point about the abilities scaling to everyone), and as both Ottavio and Vietthai noted, they even have the same resistances, as Fu with a Time Birds power can resist Chronoa's spacetime techniques just like Chronoa can resist them as stated by Fu himself (Keep in mind that Chronoa is leagues below a Time Bird, but still has the same resistances as one, due to possessing Time Power). They clearly share the same UES of Time Power/Time Energy/Ki, which is even used to create spacetimes and such, but a Time Bird is just stronger user of said TP, due to their existence being literally tied to it. But anyways, about Dark Ki...
Edit: To quickly go over the Time Scrolls, in order to actually erase the timelines that they record/contain, you would directly need the power to actually affect those timelines. Simply just destroying/blowing up a Time Scroll won't destroy the history/timelines they record. This is especially shown with Sealas who, in order to burn the Time Scrolls and reshape reality in his own image, needed more power to do so. He couldn't just "lol nuke" the Time Scrolls in base form, he specifically needed the power of his amped Artificial Intelligence Ahms whom he fused with, in order to burn the Scrolls and their records to erase and reset history. In simple terms, there is no chain reaction stuff going on here.
Supreme Kais of Time, Time Power Unleashed Mechikabura. the Time Birds and even Demigra are all "normal" Time Power users. They use the same Time Power/Ki to amp their raw stats, they use the same TP to utilize and enchance their abilities/techniques that they all share and can use like Freeze, Time Labyrinth, time dilation, etc....The only real difference with the Time Birds compared to other TP users is that Tokitoki's existence is actually connected to time, due to being born from the same Time Energy/Power of Time that all of these individuals use. Both Supreme Kais of Time and Time Birds are referred to as "Gods of Time" (Please keep in mind that "Supreme Kai of Time" literally translates to "World King God of Time"), with Demigra even explicitly trying to get his hands on Tokitoki's power in order to become the new Supreme Kai of Time, and the Time Power Unleashed state is literally just a stronger state of Time Power due to unleashing all of it at once as stated and shown by Chronoa. Time Power users utilize the same Time Power abilities, and weaker Time Power users can even utilize the exact same Time Power abilities that the Gods of Time use themselves (Demigra, a Time Power user who is not a Supreme Kai of Time nor a Time Bird, succesfully pulled off the Time Labyrinth, which is a Time God's ability as specifically stated, which literally just proves the point about the abilities scaling to everyone), and as both Ottavio and Vietthai noted, they even have the same resistances, as Fu with a Time Birds power can resist Chronoa's spacetime techniques just like Chronoa can resist them as stated by Fu himself (Keep in mind that Chronoa is leagues below a Time Bird, but still has the same resistances as one, due to possessing Time Power). They clearly share the same UES of Time Power/Time Energy/Ki, which is even used to create spacetimes and such, but a Time Bird is just stronger user of said TP, due to their existence being literally tied to it. But anyways, about Dark Ki...
In the scan linked, the player is trapped within the "World of Mind Control" where they need to defeat a fake copy of themselves in order to break out of the mind control. They're basically fighting an illusion inside their head, but I can understand that this prob requires a better explanation.
To better explain the context, during Dark Shenron's feat, where he was simply just flexing his Dark Ki when summoned, he made "impossibilities possible" by changing history/fate, per say. One of these examples was the version of Bardock "summoned" by Dark Shenron, who then transformed into a SS4 like it was normal to him. Chronoa then noted that because of Dark Shenron's influence/ki/"spacetime-division", warriors who originally shouldn't have even existed now end up drifting to the Time Vault. Dark Shenron effectively changed the fate/history of this random alternate timeline Bardock, causing him to have SS4 like it was normal thing for him, which Chronoa herself deemed as impossible in history (as Bardock normally doesn't/can't become a SS4 in the future obviously). This SS4 Bardock only exists due to Dark Shenron's distortion of history/fate as that's the only way a SS4 Bardock can actually exist in history, as he was bringing impossible warriors into existence
Controlling a 4D space is considered Higher-Dimensional Manip in the wiki's own page so manipulating the Demon Realm should qualify for HDM. There is also the Crack of Time feat.
Most of the scans are listed in the Basic Level of Dark Ki usage, where characters get corrupted and turned into mad berserks. There are countless other examples, but if necessary, we can add a few more.
Ummmmm, I'm assuming you're referring to this scan? The first scan of this album literally brings up the "empty spacetime" which is Fu's universe, with Trunks even stating that Goku's unmistakenly in Fu's created universe, and the scan after that literally states that a "new spacetime" was born, which again is Fu's universe, so that's atleast 2 spacetime statements for Fu's universe. But if that's not enough, I suppose we can add more statements about Fu's universe being a "new spacetime" or "empty spacetime", which there are plenty of (The term "Empty spacetime" is referring to the fact that it lacks all mortal life btw)
Pretty sure that simply shaking the world doesn't literally cause entire buildings to float up in the sky and a giant hole in space.
Dark Factor resists Robelu's Time Rail which reflects and rewinds attacks back
Towa was unaffected by taking in the Dark Factor as shown above, so yes
Dark Shenron was unable to nullify Mechikabura's power directly, due to his overwhelming power. The only way he could nullify Mechikabura was by an indirect loophole of giving Demigra the power to oppose him. It's still a resistance as Dark Shenron directly can't just null Mechikabura's powers on his own and had to resort in a loophole of giving Demigra the power to do so
Edit: To quickly go over the Time Scrolls, in order to actually erase the timelines that they record/contain, you would directly need the power to actually affect those timelines. Simply just destroying/blowing up a Time Scroll won't destroy the history/timelines they record. This is especially shown with Sealas who, in order to burn the Time Scrolls and reshape reality in his own image, needed more power to do so. He couldn't just "lol nuke" the Time Scrolls in base form, he specifically needed the power of his amped Artificial Intelligence Ahms whom he fused with, in order to burn the Scrolls and their records to erase and reset history. In simple terms, there is no chain reaction stuff going on here.
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Vietthai96
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Actually both Demigra and Dark Shenron can't null Mechikabura's power, not just Shenron, but then they figured out that increases Demigra ability to power null is the best way, and even then Demigra still struggling to null Mechikabura power
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That's also true
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@Vietthai96 You do realize that them having time powers doesn't mean they share everything together, especially when Chronoa is stated to only control time, and the Time Bird has control over time and space on top of it being able to create timelines with their eggs easily? The fact that Demigra wants this type of power despite apparently having time powers himself, or that Chronoa's shocked Fu wants to erase the universe's time with the time bird despite her sharing the same powers shows it doesn't cross scale to everyone who has any form of time powers and would just scale to the bird.
I said negate durability, not just using space time powers on someone who resists it.
Returning their powers to their initial value can also be power nullification as you nullified the boosts they get, as stated with the energy they consumed leading to their boosts. RPGs have this all the time where you nullify the boosts the foes get and revert them to their base stats. That doesn't automatically mean they get causality hax. Fu's statement just sounds more like existence erasure when he talks about erasing the universe, cause if he resets it back to 0 then it would just not destroy the universe at all, just restarts it, and even then I do not think that's enough for causality hax, and as explained above, this is only possible with the time bird's power, so this wouldn't scale to every time user. The changes in the timeline, they go through time to change the events, they don't literally rewrite the fates of others as they just make changes with paradoxes. Unless you have an actual statement that they literally control the fates of others this isn't enough.
Tokitoki making the supreme kai of time doesn't prove EE, it's just that they move on to the next person in line, nothing about that is EE. Where exactly did Agio do that? Because I just see the scrolls being burnt from the whole "fate scan". Again, Fu literally has the universe tree and The time bird to do that, so why would this scale to everyone else when he needs both to do this feat?
Thanks.
Space and time being distorted is just space-time manipulation, nothing about that is them warping the fabric of reality a la Janemba. Also where exactly in the clip does it say they warp the world based on their thoughts and desires? Cause nothing about the bardock holding Mira down scene mentions any of this.
Then yeah this should be power nullification, already explained above why this is the case.
Where's the scan that it's a literal void? Because I just see scans on it saying it's a separate space, meaning this is just spatial manipulation.
Yeah though he's still in the phase where he's disconnected from time right? Because if so but he can just affect them with causality hax/fate hax/any hax that type 4 normally resists then it would just be a "can affect type 4". Which honestly the whole Acausality negation shit needs a CRT in of itself cause the fact this is on pages as opposed to just being able to affect them with the hax is dumb imo.
Is there any blog on the time powers functioning exactly like normal ki in any way? Since the UES shit is accepted, something more abstract like time powers would need some scans to prove that it scales to AP, which does remind me, is there any scans at all that indicate that being stronger automatically makes your hax and resistance better? Because that would need proof too.
Fine on the resistance, didn't notice the other line in that scan.
Given the fact the bird is blowing up the entire area with this demon thing and it blows up resulting in the darkness going away, that's what the clip here suggests. Second one seems fine.
@Dagoth_OwO That still doesn't debunk my point on how the Time Bird is given such high status that in almost every major event in these games supposedly, that they need the time bird to do anything. Fu absorbing the time bird with the universe tree's power doesn't really help your case on this scaling to every time user when he needed a lot more than that despite having space time cutting powers with his sword. Chronoa being only able to control time and not all of time and space as demigra points out after voring the bird doesn't exactly help your point either that this all cross scales. If this was normal time users that can do this stuff on the fly then sure I can see the powers cross scaling, but I don't see this for most of the abilities, just stuff exclusive to the time bird and even the universe tree too.
Doesn't world of mind control disprove illusions and perception in the first place as their mind is stuck unless they can beat this random clone? If you got statements that illusions are made and their senses get warped then sure, but that doesn't exactly help here.
She also said they ended up drifting to this world, so this implies it's just an alternate version of bardock that just got warped here thanks to the space time distortions. That doesn't exactly prove he rewrote fate or causality to make bardock go SSJ4. Just that he brought in another bardock here.
Where does it say they control the entire demon world? You only have statements on them making a realm in a space that already exists, so it debunks that even being HDM. Again the door swallowing feat is the more preferred one given it can affect the entire world.
No, I'm referring to the god ki stuff, where Whis warps Goku and Vegeta somewhere else. Not the demon/dark ki. The first scan just shows whis warping them somewhere else, nothing about him making a space time.
Even though charging ki in dragon ball does this shit all the time? With Gohan and Goku and vegeta doing the same thing every single time they power up? Lifting buildings isn't reality warping unless you have any statements that demigra's presence did that.
Thanks
Where does it imply she resisted it? She doesn't do the same thing Fu did where he lolnopes Mechi's power and takes it for himself instead of being overpowered.
Except he still nullified Mechi's mind control, this just sounds more like he has the same weakness as the other dragons where he can't harm anyone who's stronger.
Or, he just needs the power to beat everyone who protects the time scrolls in the first place? Cause he's going against Xeno Trunks, Vegeta, and anyone else who defends the time scrolls in order to get to said scrolls. Nothing about this implies he needs specific powers to erase the time scrolls at all. Just that he needs to beat the guys who oppose him to do it. And yes there is a chain reaction stuff, burning the time scrolls means the timelines they cover gets nuked. That's textbook definition of a chain reaction. He's not rewriting concepts or information to get through the time scrolls. He just wants to burn them and beat those who oppose him. And even then NOTHING about the blog for the time scrolls has any valid arguments for concepts and especially information when the argument is misrepresenting what the term record means.
I said negate durability, not just using space time powers on someone who resists it.
Returning their powers to their initial value can also be power nullification as you nullified the boosts they get, as stated with the energy they consumed leading to their boosts. RPGs have this all the time where you nullify the boosts the foes get and revert them to their base stats. That doesn't automatically mean they get causality hax. Fu's statement just sounds more like existence erasure when he talks about erasing the universe, cause if he resets it back to 0 then it would just not destroy the universe at all, just restarts it, and even then I do not think that's enough for causality hax, and as explained above, this is only possible with the time bird's power, so this wouldn't scale to every time user. The changes in the timeline, they go through time to change the events, they don't literally rewrite the fates of others as they just make changes with paradoxes. Unless you have an actual statement that they literally control the fates of others this isn't enough.
Tokitoki making the supreme kai of time doesn't prove EE, it's just that they move on to the next person in line, nothing about that is EE. Where exactly did Agio do that? Because I just see the scrolls being burnt from the whole "fate scan". Again, Fu literally has the universe tree and The time bird to do that, so why would this scale to everyone else when he needs both to do this feat?
Thanks.
Space and time being distorted is just space-time manipulation, nothing about that is them warping the fabric of reality a la Janemba. Also where exactly in the clip does it say they warp the world based on their thoughts and desires? Cause nothing about the bardock holding Mira down scene mentions any of this.
Then yeah this should be power nullification, already explained above why this is the case.
Where's the scan that it's a literal void? Because I just see scans on it saying it's a separate space, meaning this is just spatial manipulation.
Yeah though he's still in the phase where he's disconnected from time right? Because if so but he can just affect them with causality hax/fate hax/any hax that type 4 normally resists then it would just be a "can affect type 4". Which honestly the whole Acausality negation shit needs a CRT in of itself cause the fact this is on pages as opposed to just being able to affect them with the hax is dumb imo.
Is there any blog on the time powers functioning exactly like normal ki in any way? Since the UES shit is accepted, something more abstract like time powers would need some scans to prove that it scales to AP, which does remind me, is there any scans at all that indicate that being stronger automatically makes your hax and resistance better? Because that would need proof too.
Fine on the resistance, didn't notice the other line in that scan.
Given the fact the bird is blowing up the entire area with this demon thing and it blows up resulting in the darkness going away, that's what the clip here suggests. Second one seems fine.
@Dagoth_OwO That still doesn't debunk my point on how the Time Bird is given such high status that in almost every major event in these games supposedly, that they need the time bird to do anything. Fu absorbing the time bird with the universe tree's power doesn't really help your case on this scaling to every time user when he needed a lot more than that despite having space time cutting powers with his sword. Chronoa being only able to control time and not all of time and space as demigra points out after voring the bird doesn't exactly help your point either that this all cross scales. If this was normal time users that can do this stuff on the fly then sure I can see the powers cross scaling, but I don't see this for most of the abilities, just stuff exclusive to the time bird and even the universe tree too.
Doesn't world of mind control disprove illusions and perception in the first place as their mind is stuck unless they can beat this random clone? If you got statements that illusions are made and their senses get warped then sure, but that doesn't exactly help here.
She also said they ended up drifting to this world, so this implies it's just an alternate version of bardock that just got warped here thanks to the space time distortions. That doesn't exactly prove he rewrote fate or causality to make bardock go SSJ4. Just that he brought in another bardock here.
Where does it say they control the entire demon world? You only have statements on them making a realm in a space that already exists, so it debunks that even being HDM. Again the door swallowing feat is the more preferred one given it can affect the entire world.
No, I'm referring to the god ki stuff, where Whis warps Goku and Vegeta somewhere else. Not the demon/dark ki. The first scan just shows whis warping them somewhere else, nothing about him making a space time.
Even though charging ki in dragon ball does this shit all the time? With Gohan and Goku and vegeta doing the same thing every single time they power up? Lifting buildings isn't reality warping unless you have any statements that demigra's presence did that.
Thanks
Where does it imply she resisted it? She doesn't do the same thing Fu did where he lolnopes Mechi's power and takes it for himself instead of being overpowered.
Except he still nullified Mechi's mind control, this just sounds more like he has the same weakness as the other dragons where he can't harm anyone who's stronger.
Or, he just needs the power to beat everyone who protects the time scrolls in the first place? Cause he's going against Xeno Trunks, Vegeta, and anyone else who defends the time scrolls in order to get to said scrolls. Nothing about this implies he needs specific powers to erase the time scrolls at all. Just that he needs to beat the guys who oppose him to do it. And yes there is a chain reaction stuff, burning the time scrolls means the timelines they cover gets nuked. That's textbook definition of a chain reaction. He's not rewriting concepts or information to get through the time scrolls. He just wants to burn them and beat those who oppose him. And even then NOTHING about the blog for the time scrolls has any valid arguments for concepts and especially information when the argument is misrepresenting what the term record means.
Vietthai96
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Currently working but i want to address this argument
1. Bad point, because this is nitpicking sematic arguments, just because they didn't mentioned the word space in her role doesn't mean she somehow only control time.
2. Her attack that was used on Fu literally called space-time techniques. And the Fusion of Ki she used on Xeno Goku and CC Goki was called space-time technique
3. Time in-verse context are interchangeable, = space-time, timeline. Flow of time was called history. Mechikabura after absorbing the entire multiverse stated he absorbed time
4. Demigra???. I don't even know what Demigra you talking about???. Xenoverse Demigra???, he didn't have the power so he need to absorb the the bird. Heroes Demigra???. No, he only returned to the past to urge his past self who is only a wizard absorb the bird, he himself later got the power and his current motive is unknown
5. The context is very clear, when Fu want to erase things, she shocked because why he would do something like this, not because of his power, and people shock all the time in fiction, i don't even know why this was brought out while all the scan are pretty clear, even Xeno Trunks who doesn't have Time Power can still perform Eternal Labyrinth which is even stronger than TPU Chronoa Time Labyrinth only with using Awaken Keysword. And mind you, the sword was only being charged by Time Power, no one magically gave him the knowledge to use it, done it via a weapon and he still perform a strong sealing technique. Also Master Roshi was shocked that Krillin and Yamcha could do the Kamehameha, Roshi can't do Kamehameha now???
6. All people using Time Power including Time Bird using the same technique over and over: Freeze for Time Stop, Time Labyrinth for BFR and Sealing and more. And all of them was stated to be: using Time God's Power
7. Demigra who obtained Time Power by an unknown mean, still capable of using Time Labyrinth normally like Chronoa
8. I don't even know why you bring out the: his existence is important mean other can't scale to his power. Again it is pointed out in the concept blog (excluding the concept part that we still not debate over of course) that his existence is Time itself, harming him distort all space-time, and with him gone mean the multiverse automatically gone. It also stated in Xenoverse that if Chronoa, or Supreme Kai of Time gone, the multiverse also go down with her which mean both are equally important. Also a higher role doesn't always dictated power all the time, the only thing different is that he upscale in term of potency of his hax, that all.
Sorry if i offended you in anyway, and since i'm currently working and on phone, it is really hard for me to link scan, so i will just comment first, and you still can easily find scan in either Time Power page or what i already posted
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It kinda does when her role is very specific compared to the time bird who sustains the entire space time continuum thanks to Demigra's statements of ruling over time and space. The burden of proof is on you that she controls both time and space, especially to the same extent as the time bird.
Ok and again, not the same level as the time bird who's been shown to be a far bigger deal in these events than Chronoa. If Chronoa, who can easily be corrupted by dark demon magic has the exact same power as the time bird why didn't Demigra or anyone just absorb her instead of going the extra mile towards the time bird?
What part of that debunks my point that he needed the time bird in general to do this stuff? Like I don't understand what you're trying to argue here, let alone what you're trying to debunk on my end.
And Fu literally is stated right before he plans on erasing the universe that he absorbed the time bird and the universe tree. Meaning this is something he normally cannot do with one or the other. The burden of proof is on you that this is somehow normal for any time users when the only scans for this is with both amps. Did you read the same scan with trunks sealing Mechi with the keysword? Or are you referring to a completely different event that I'm not aware of? Because he specifically said they combined the powers of light, god, darkness and time to seal the dude away with the keysword. The Roshi example has nothing to do with the time powers Fu has, let alone the sealing argument, which I didn't exactly question, so this is a Red Herring from you.
Same techniques, yet the time bird is put on a higher pedestal than the others for its status and what it can do that others can't. Again you keep bringing up random abilities that I'm not questioning, as opposed to the scans you guys have where it's specifically the time bird that's causing all of this, especially stuff like birthing entire timelines and sustaining all dimensions in said timelines.
Time Labyrinth has nothing to do with my points about the time bird, so again stay on topic.
His existence isn't time itself, he governs time (which btw, doesn't exactly count for Abstract Existence since he isn't immortal because of what he governs or embodies, he just sustains the timeline and dimensions inside with its power). Also when the hell did Chronoa ever get stated to have the same status as sustaining the entire multiverse? Because none of the scans I've seen in any of the blogs remotely suggests that.
You haven't offended me, but you're not exactly making the best sense when you're bringing up some random points that had nothing to do with my main complaints with the abilities cross scaling to other characters.
Ok and again, not the same level as the time bird who's been shown to be a far bigger deal in these events than Chronoa. If Chronoa, who can easily be corrupted by dark demon magic has the exact same power as the time bird why didn't Demigra or anyone just absorb her instead of going the extra mile towards the time bird?
What part of that debunks my point that he needed the time bird in general to do this stuff? Like I don't understand what you're trying to argue here, let alone what you're trying to debunk on my end.
And Fu literally is stated right before he plans on erasing the universe that he absorbed the time bird and the universe tree. Meaning this is something he normally cannot do with one or the other. The burden of proof is on you that this is somehow normal for any time users when the only scans for this is with both amps. Did you read the same scan with trunks sealing Mechi with the keysword? Or are you referring to a completely different event that I'm not aware of? Because he specifically said they combined the powers of light, god, darkness and time to seal the dude away with the keysword. The Roshi example has nothing to do with the time powers Fu has, let alone the sealing argument, which I didn't exactly question, so this is a Red Herring from you.
Same techniques, yet the time bird is put on a higher pedestal than the others for its status and what it can do that others can't. Again you keep bringing up random abilities that I'm not questioning, as opposed to the scans you guys have where it's specifically the time bird that's causing all of this, especially stuff like birthing entire timelines and sustaining all dimensions in said timelines.
Time Labyrinth has nothing to do with my points about the time bird, so again stay on topic.
His existence isn't time itself, he governs time (which btw, doesn't exactly count for Abstract Existence since he isn't immortal because of what he governs or embodies, he just sustains the timeline and dimensions inside with its power). Also when the hell did Chronoa ever get stated to have the same status as sustaining the entire multiverse? Because none of the scans I've seen in any of the blogs remotely suggests that.
You haven't offended me, but you're not exactly making the best sense when you're bringing up some random points that had nothing to do with my main complaints with the abilities cross scaling to other characters.
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Simple, because their Time Power is far greater. Absorbing a Time Bird is literally one of the biggest amps in the entire series, so why exactly wouldn't they want the extra power boost. Also, why are you bringing up Fu's spacetime cutting power when Dark King Fu didn't even have Time Power at all. As for "Chronoa only controlling time" this is nitpicking, as one of Chronoa's main duties is to maintain entire timelines and even erase "false timelines" if necessary. Hell, she even contemplated on erasing the "unknown history" that was created by the Distorted Time Egg, where Trunks helps Gohan defeat the androids. And the whole reason why Agios comes back into the picture in the first place is because she's tired of Chronoa not doing her job properly and not erasing false timelines from existence. She's very clearly capable of affecting spacetimes.
And yes "normal time users", can do this stuff. I already showed you how even Demigra is capable of using abilities specifically belonging to Time Gods like Tokitoki and Chronoa. The Time Labyrinth is a Time God ability, which normal TP users can utilize. That's a blatant on-screen feat of Time Power abilities scaling, as a non-Time God uses a Time God ability.
Edit: I almost forgot, Dabura when he invaded the Time Vault and turned everyone except Chronoa to stone, kidnapped Chronoa in an attempt to claim her power for himself, which would have caused her to die and the world's history to be destroyed, with Demigra (who Dabura summoned from another timeline) stating that once Chronoa was gone, he'd be the one who controls time, and that they'd built a new universe from the ashes of the old one and Dabura even stating that Chronoa dying would have erased all of history. All of this was without Tokitoki's power and only with Chronoa's Time Power. So yes, abilities do scale, considering how even Chronoa's Time Power can cause the destruction of all history and can create a new universe, something which Tokitoki can do aswell
I don't see what that other version of you could be other than an illusion.
And she also said and I quote "warriors that originally couldn't have existed end up drifting to this world." SS4 Bardock is someone who cannot normally exist in history. Period. Bardock normally in history either:
1. Gets killed by Frieza
2. Gets sent back in time and beats Chilled as a Super Saiyan
Either way, he doesn't/can't become a SS4. Warping people to other places or whatever isn't explaining how an impossible version of Bardock who can't even exist normally, as confirmed by Chronoa herself, appeared to fight the Time Patrol. No normal version of Bardock ever transforms into a SS4 in the original flow of history. Dark Shenron is very clearly changing Bardock's future/fate so that he can turn into SS4 like it's something normal to him. He doesn't even treat SS4 as something new for him.
My bad. That is the dimension that Whis created which was stated to be the exact same as the Room of Spirit and Time which is a different dimension of time.
And this is relevant because.....? I don't recall Goku opening giant holes in space by powering up their ki
Considering how she's not possessed by Mechikabura in the first place, it would imply she resists possession too
No. First off, the very first thing he did when released, he invaded the Time Vault, effortlessly smacked Trunks and then just dipped. By your logic, Sealas could have just pulled of his plan right there and then since he supposedly could have just nuked the Scrolls in base alone, but he didn't, despite having the perfect opportunity to do so. Secondly, it was very clearly stated that Sealas needed that power to rewrite existence, by Trunks, Chronoa and Sealas himself. Lastly, you do realize that if Sealas could have just easily nuked the Scrolls in base, without Ahms' power, he could have done it every time the entire Time Patrol was distracted by spacetime distortions. There are literally several moments where Sealas could have just freely strolled to the Time Nest and completed his plans by your logic, as the Time Nest was left completely unguarded and the entire Time Patrol was distracted and dealing with other issues, but he didn't do so. Either Sealas is the dumbest villain in all of DB or he clearly can't just casually burn the scrolls as he had several perfect moments to just freely enter the Time Nest without opposition, but he didn't. The Time Scrolls clearly aren't some chain reaction bs, since Sealas clearly needs Ahms' power to burn them, and he didn't just go to the Time Nest literally every time he had the perfect opportunity to do so. The amount of plotholes your argument brings up is actually ridiculous. Why even create Ahms in the first place when he could just distract the Time Patrol with spacetime distortions (which he did) and just burn the scrolls while the TP are busy?
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Vietthai96
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Still working before coming home, but OwO already commented, so here is the scan for this argument of your
Literally, she capable of the same feat as Tokitoki
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@Dagoth_OwO So you admit time bird is the biggest amp for time power period because of its status, so why the **** would the time bird scale its abilities to everyone else who isn't on the same level? I bring it up because he literally has space time cutting powers listed for the demons, the fact he's still capable of affecting space and time, yet still needed the time bird and the universe tree to perform his feat shoots your argument in the foot that this is normal for every single time user. Thank you, finally something that can remotely back up Chronoa scaling to the bird.
The fact it's literally in his mind that he's fighting this clone? Do you have any clips that shows in the real world the person under mind control is fighting all over the place someone who isn't even there and is getting harmed? Because if so and it reflects the mind control fight then sure I can see this scaling, but as of now this just looks like they're fighting in his mind to take control of their body
Since when could he not become SSJ4? You do realize SSJ1-4 is attainable in the series with enough training and mastering the oozaru form right? If this was super saiyan god then you might've had a point but SSJ4 Bardock isn't out of reach for timelines when he could easily learn the form beyond episode of bardock. It's a massive assumption to claim that Shenron rewrote fate itself for Bardock to become SSJ4. You need to prove that Dark Shenron specifically rewrote fate itself for Bardock to achieve this form, as of now this is based off headcanon and assumptions.
Thanks.
Seems to me you forgot about Super Buu and Gotenks being able to rip open portals by powering up/screaming. That's not reality warping in the slightest, just something ki users could do, so again, you need proof that he's specifically warping the fabric of reality, cause building floating isn't enough for reality warping when dragon ball makes shit float all the time when they have a lot of power ups.
Prove she actually overpowered the possession from Mechi as opposed to just embracing the power to serve him. The burden of proof is on you that his influence did not control her, because the scan you have doesn't tell me much.
And yet he left because Chronoa was also there, meaning he'd have to get through her to do it in the first place. Second off, the fact you keep claiming "he could've done this" with no explanation for why he didn't bother doing this shit at all doesn't really prove your point that he needed a very specific power to burn the time scrolls, so yes he is one of the dumbest villains in the series if he didn't take the opportunity to invade the time vault when apparently no one was guarding it. Which again doesn't really prove he needs to warp concepts and information to destroy the time scrolls. Something you guys are doing a very shit job of proving that you need to warp concepts and information to destroy the time scrolls. Actually prove that's a requirement as opposed to just burning the things normally, because none of what you've explained backs this up beyond assumptions at this point. The fact you keep claiming the time scrolls aren't chain reaction despite the burning results in timeline destruction baffles me, that's literally what happens, unless you're talking about a different series I'm not aware of.
@Vietthai96 thanks.
The fact it's literally in his mind that he's fighting this clone? Do you have any clips that shows in the real world the person under mind control is fighting all over the place someone who isn't even there and is getting harmed? Because if so and it reflects the mind control fight then sure I can see this scaling, but as of now this just looks like they're fighting in his mind to take control of their body
Since when could he not become SSJ4? You do realize SSJ1-4 is attainable in the series with enough training and mastering the oozaru form right? If this was super saiyan god then you might've had a point but SSJ4 Bardock isn't out of reach for timelines when he could easily learn the form beyond episode of bardock. It's a massive assumption to claim that Shenron rewrote fate itself for Bardock to become SSJ4. You need to prove that Dark Shenron specifically rewrote fate itself for Bardock to achieve this form, as of now this is based off headcanon and assumptions.
Thanks.
Seems to me you forgot about Super Buu and Gotenks being able to rip open portals by powering up/screaming. That's not reality warping in the slightest, just something ki users could do, so again, you need proof that he's specifically warping the fabric of reality, cause building floating isn't enough for reality warping when dragon ball makes shit float all the time when they have a lot of power ups.
Prove she actually overpowered the possession from Mechi as opposed to just embracing the power to serve him. The burden of proof is on you that his influence did not control her, because the scan you have doesn't tell me much.
And yet he left because Chronoa was also there, meaning he'd have to get through her to do it in the first place. Second off, the fact you keep claiming "he could've done this" with no explanation for why he didn't bother doing this shit at all doesn't really prove your point that he needed a very specific power to burn the time scrolls, so yes he is one of the dumbest villains in the series if he didn't take the opportunity to invade the time vault when apparently no one was guarding it. Which again doesn't really prove he needs to warp concepts and information to destroy the time scrolls. Something you guys are doing a very shit job of proving that you need to warp concepts and information to destroy the time scrolls. Actually prove that's a requirement as opposed to just burning the things normally, because none of what you've explained backs this up beyond assumptions at this point. The fact you keep claiming the time scrolls aren't chain reaction despite the burning results in timeline destruction baffles me, that's literally what happens, unless you're talking about a different series I'm not aware of.
@Vietthai96 thanks.
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The Time Birds are also strong AP wise, that's what OwO meant. It's not purely hax related.
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