Downgrading the Enterprise-D?

[Idazmi]

Yeah, the enterprise as it is its death star level. Way too overpowered. Town Level for Phasers Large City Level For Photon Torpedoes. That should be more than enough. Enterprise D has 12.75 Billion Gigawatts of power per TNG.

The TOS Enterprise has multiple continent and moon-level feats with phasers, and the TNG Enterprise (as shown) has both moon and planet level feats. The statement that the Enterprise only generates. In addition, the line is taken out of context:

AMANDA: It's hard to imagine how much energy is being harnessed in there.

DATA: Imagination is not necessary. The scale is readily quantifiable. We are presently generating twelve point seven five billion gigawatts per (an alarm goes off)

Per what, exactly? No context was given, but assuming that the ships' output is 12.75 Billion Gigawatts at absolute maximum effectively contradicts almost every actual feat the series has, as I have shown both here and elsewhere.

That, and OBD lists the Enterprise as 5-A: http://www.outskirtsbattledomewiki....1301-vessel-profile-uss-enterprise-ncc-1701-d

So, if the OBD denied the feat, why is it listed as that tier on the page? Based on the information at hand, we can only conclude that the OBD accepted the feat.

Anyway, the profile could use with a little touch up besides the AP. One thing, FTL for Impulse is based on a faulty blackhole calc, Impulse is actually consistently sub-light speeds (consistent guide for reference).

That's not a "consistent guide", that's from the Star Trek Voyager technical manual. We already discussed here why Voyager, in particular, isn't a good source for lore. More than that, The TOS Enterprise was able to travel from the edge of the galaxy to Earth in only "years" in TOS, the first time Impulse was explicitly mentioned in any context. The fact that it has other FTL feats is not an outlier for that reason.

Compared to before, I'm seeing less actual feats being discussed and compared on this thread, and more assumptions attempting to reach a general consensus of lower AP and other calcs, regardless of feats. This wiki is about feats. In case anyone claims bias on my part, even I wasn't in favor of putting the Enterprise-D at 5-A until I was convinced to. See:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1692385#18 <- My first response. If you scroll down, you'll see I said of the Neutron Star feat: "It's not an AP feat unless it affects their Attack Potency: the tractor beam is not a dedicated weapon any more than a tow cable is."

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1692385#19 <- The argument that convinced me to change my tune:

On the second part, it *does* affect their AP; moving stellar objects still qualifies for the total AP of the ship. Obviously, this wouldn't scale to phasers, photon torpedoes and quantum torpedoes, which would have a different AP value, but it's still usable and valid since it is a utility. Said tow cable would be at the least 5-A were it capable of moving objects with a near-stellar mass. The fact that it can be repurposed into a weapon only increases the validity of this.

The comment after that on that thread reflects my changed opinion. Overall, the feats speak for themselves, and I'm not down with the idea of ignoring multiple canonical feats and calculations to lower an AP: especially not to BELOW the canon abilities of it's predecessor, which was made with more primitive technology and could unambiguously destroy a continent.

 

[Yukaphile]

You're not listing any, though? Please list a few. Because as I've brought up, the amount of "watts of power" they can produce is never consistent.

The OBD also rates destroying the HTC as destroying space-time, which bumped Goku up to universal+. The VS Battles Wiki doesn't follow that same line of logic, or with Episode 12, Goku would be Low 2-C.

Voyager is simply exaggerated in terms of how inconsistent it is, but TNG and DS9 and TOS was just as inconsistent.

Then why didn't the Romulan and Cardassian fleet, when aware of this technology, just send one ship, under cloak, and use their tractor beams tuned to 390% power to crush the planet in an instant? They were not restricted by plot. It was to show off massive DC **** in order to reveal the plot. No mention of radiation. They could do whatever they wanted, as long as it was revealed in the next second that the Jem'Hadar were coming to kill them.

 

[Yukaphile]

For phasers, High 8-C at lowest frequencies, 6-A at maximum frequencies | For photon torpedoes, 7-B at lowest yield, High 6-A at highest yield? Is this better?

 

[Idazmi]

So what are the conclusions here? Should we keep the calculated tractor beam feat or find another, more reliable one, to scale from?

Consider this: OBD accepted the feat despite some here saying that they didn't, and the other feats being brought up to contend with it are continent and moon level. Despite this, I saw a suggestion to lower the AP to Large City Level - regardless of the multiple clear moon and planet level feats accumulated both here and elsewhere. Yukaphile revealed the true reason for this when he brought up Star Wars for no reaso along with an argument I had already debunked: the "NDF chain reaction" he mentions has no basis in Star Trek lore. I can easily prove it again here if I need to.

Since I initially posted this, Supreme-Emperor-Over has replied to my original revision thread that was inactive from June 8, 2018 (see here) with this gem:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1692385#23

The Genesis Device creates a planet that went kaboom. WQarp drive require negative matter which cannot exist Aliens are future human and quantum teleportation would kill you because you are ripping a person apart on the subatomic scale phased are phased energy reunification weapons like lasers are light amplified by an emission of radiation phased particle weapons light is both a particle and a wave Photon torpedoes are maybe possibly to give enough time

Given the content of that thread, his comment is a complete non sequitur: it adds nothing to the discussion at all and doesn't seek to. I doubt he even read a single post.

The point is this: as I have strongly implied multiple times before, this thread was never about accuracy, or narrowing down actual feats from outliers. It always about lowering Star Trek's AP regardless of all those feats. I ask you to lock this thread. If you don't, I can only see this getting worse from here.

 

[Yukaphile]

Forget Star Wars. At this point it means they could stomp Babylon 5, Halo, StarCraft, and a host of other series with just one ship alone, when in their own series it took a fleet to blast 80% of a planetary crust off, confirmed with a statement and on screen visual feats in direct contradiction of the outliers. And, yeah, it's because those feats are outliers, because Trek was never intended to be god tier with just one ship, as the poster above illustrated.

Also, Idazmi, you never addressed the speed retcon I had brought up. I'm also getting sick of you questioning my motives and accusing me of ducking your arguments when you're doing the same too.

 

[Yukaphile]

Who?

 

[Idazmi]

Also, Idazmi, you never addressed the speed retcon I had brought up. I'm also getting sick of you questioning my motives and accusing me of ducking your arguments when you're doing the same too.

Hykuu also called you out for ignoring my points. ByAsura said you weren't listening to what he said. I also addressed your statements about speed. You are ignoring the arguments against you and then projecting, which is why I also called you out.

 

[Yukaphile]

Hykuu ignored the fact that you were ignoring some of MY points I was bringing up, and said you won without saying how.

No, you didn't. Early TNG said it would take two years to cross 7,000 light-years. How is that consistent with TOS, if it could cross the galaxy in 47 days, before "Force of Nature?"

 

[Yukaphile]

DATA [OC]: And are located near the system J two five.
RIKER: Travel time to the nearest starbase?
DATA [OC]: At maximum warp, in two years, seven months, three days, eighteen hours we would reach Starbase one eight five.

 

[Yukaphile]

I ask again, why didn't the Romulan/Cardassian fleet, if they had star-level tractor power, just crush the Founders' planet in an instant?

 

[Idazmi]

Hykuu ignored the fact that you were ignoring some of MY points I was bringing up, and said you won without saying how.

No, you didn't. Early TNG said it would take two years to cross 7,000 light-years. How is that consistent with TOS, if it could cross the galaxy in 47 days, before "Force of Nature?"

The reply lies above, in the sea of comments you ignored.

 

[Yukaphile]

Where, specifically? I could say the same to you. It seems as if you ignored it once the mods began posting. Please repost it.

 

[Idazmi]

I would appreciate a reply regarding this from people other than Yuka.

This chain has devolved into personal attacks at this point: Supreme-Emperor-Over posted several claims that I was a "criminal" for "stealing others' content" and "guilty of a crime punishable by death in some countries". They have since been deleted, but that's still a clear violation of the site rules. I'm sure these comments can be recovered.

 

[Yukaphile]

If you'll note, I didn't call you a criminal.

I'm curious, why are you ignoring DS9, where their DC and AP is clearly shown, and it's not star-level power, but attacking a planet that would take five hours to blast down to the core. Thus, it seems reasonable to conclude from on screen visual feats and statements that there are two options here.

My first proposal.

For phasers, High 8-C at lowest frequencies, 6-B at maximum frequencies | For photon torpedoes, 7-B at lowest yield, 6-A at highest yield.

Or my second proposal.

For phasers, High 8-C at lowest frequencies, 6-A at maximum frequencies | For photon torpedoes, 7-B at lowest yield, High 6-A at highest yield.

 

[Yukaphile]

You're not helping matters here, friend. Please don't get this topic locked.

 

[Idazmi]

You're not helping matters here, friend. Please don't get this topic locked.

I think you two can basically count on this being locked now.

 

[Yukaphile]

There's a world of difference between calling someone a Trek wanker and calling them a criminal.

Can we please stay on topic? If you two have a personal problem, settle it elsewhere?

 

[Idazmi]

There's a world of difference between calling someone a Trek wanker and calling them a criminal.

Can we please stay on topic? If you two have a personal problem, settle it elsewhere?

I don't know him from Adam. Your case for this thread isn't great either: Kirk's Enterprise has higher feats than your proposal for the Enterprise-D. Your points have all been addressed, and your feats exceeded by far across Star Trek's entire lore. You have simply ignored every single moon and planet level feat brought up on Star Trek's side from any series, and every single rebuttal brought against you by anyone. You've been called out on this nonsense by multiple people already: the comments above prove all of that to anyone who bothers to actually read them.

 

[Idazmi]

Never said the second one but the first one I did you give zero credit for the videos that is stealing and a crime. Do not misquote me

I doubt that your comments disappeared for no reason, and I'm certain an admin can recover them. All of them.

 

[Yukaphile]

The best on screen feat you showed was punching a planet that cracked... an area the size of North America or so. And if you addressed my point about the speed retcon, then please repost. As for "moon level" feats, those were small moons in TNG, as I've pointed out. Around the size of Phobos. And you're ignoring my points as well. I'm basing my proposal based on actual visual evidence from what we saw a fleet of 20 ships do in DS9. Why are you ignoring DS9, again? You can't argue it's inconsistent like Voyager. Are you just someone who doesn't like DS9 like lots of Trek fans? Or hasn't seen it? Because those phaser and torpedo blasts look to individually be hitting areas that are large country or continental. Your clinging to your guns would have the Enterprise-D be stronger than a whole fleet was during a crucial point in the entire franchise's history, and could curbstomp whole other sci-fi series. How does that make sense?

 

[Idazmi]

The best on screen feat you showed was punching a planet that cracked... an area the size of North America or so. (...) As for "moon level" feats, those were small moons in TNG, as I've pointed out. Around the size of Phobos.

Exactly my point: you're ignoring ByAshura's entire first post, with it's multiple planet and moon level feats, and fixating on a feat from 100 years before all that even happened. You also ignore both his and my posted rebuttals regarding the size of the moons. Congratulations: you have no argument and you ignore the points made already. As Hykuu said:

Idazmi won this argument dozens of comments ago

And I did.

And if you addressed my point about the speed retcon, then please repost.

No. You will scroll up and search for it yourself. Use "Control + F" if you have to, but I'm not reposing another argument I already made to bloat this out even more.

And you're ignoring my points as well. I'm basing my proposal based on actual visual evidence from what we saw a fleet of 20 ships do in DS9. Why are you ignoring DS9, again? You can't argue it's inconsistent like Voyager. Are you just someone who doesn't like DS9 like lots of Trek fans? Or hasn't seen it? Because those phaser and torpedo blasts look to individually be hitting areas that are large country or continental. Your clinging to your guns would have the Enterprise-D be stronger than a whole fleet was during a crucial point in the entire franchise's history, and could curbstomp whole other sci-fi series. How does that make sense?

One lower feat does not outweigh literally dozens of higher feats, especially when many of them canonically predate the series being discussed: technology in Star Trek canonically evolves over time, so this way makes the most sense.

As for the "curb stomp" comment, so what? WH40k would happily curb-stomp the Earth Federation from Mobile Suit Gundam. "They could curbstomp whole other series" not a compelling argument to lower canonical feats, and that seems to be the only real argument you have here.

 

[Yukaphile]

ByAsura admitted the star fragment feat you think is accurate was an outlier. So, there you go. But yeah, I actually scaled them. They're the size of Phobos, dude. You're just being obstinate on this. I could post multiple screenshots to PROVE this.

I actually already addressed most of those points. "New Ground?" That's continental. "The Survivors?" "Pulverize a planet" doesn't mean instantly, and it took them three days to arrive.

No, you just think you did when you're arguing headcanon.

Fine, I'll do so.

...

You're LYING. I just checked. You never addressed the speed retcon. Please do so now.

Dozens, really? Please list them. I've already debunked a lot of them.

As I said, the best TOS feat is cracking a small area of a planet. That is IT. And evolves over time? That ignores what Geordi said, that the tech has remained the same. Except when it hasn't. There's your inconsistency.

I repeat. If one ship is god tier planet level, then why didn't they just send one ship to take out the Founders' homeworld? It's long after these feats you mention!

 

[Yukaphile]

I repeat, "Force of Nature" is Season 7! "Q Who" is Season 2! It would take two years to cross 7,000 light-years. How is that consistent with TOS?

 

[Yukaphile]

DATA [OC]: And are located near the system J two five.
RIKER: Travel time to the nearest starbase?
DATA [OC]: At maximum warp, in two years, seven months, three days, eighteen hours we would reach Starbase one eight five.

SHELBY: (blonde woman) That's what I'm here to find out. The initial descriptions of these surface conditions are almost identical to your reports from system J two five.
PICARD: Commander Riker wrote those reports. He agrees with you.
HANSON: Commander Shelby took over Borg tactical analysis six months ago. I've learned to give her a wide latitude when I want to get things done. That's how I intend to operate here.
SHELBY: My priority has been to develop some kind, any kind of defence strategy
RIKER: Obviously nothing we have now can stop them.
SHELBY: We've been designing new weapons but they're all still on the drawing board.
HANSON: We expected much more lead time. Your encounter with the Borg was over seven thousand light years away.
PICARD: If this is the Borg, it would indicate they have a source of power far superior to our own.

 

[Idazmi]

You're LYING. I just checked. You never addressed the speed retcon. Please do so now.

For the record, I used "Control + F" and typed "warp". The first thing on the page was:

No, since you are being disingenuous again. The most exact warp speed calculation in the original Star Trek is from the episode That Which Survives - in that episode, a mysterious force moved the Enterprise exactly 990.7 light years away from a planet where they had already sent a landing party. Enterprise returned in only 11.337 hours, for a speed of 766029.48 times lightspeed: fast enough to cross our galaxy in only 47.68 days. Well fast enough to reach the the galactic core, which they actually did twice. They also went past the edge of the galaxy thrice.

The reason the newer ships are slower is specifically because Starfleet found out that going too fast slowly tears apart space-time on repeat trips, putting inhabited planets at risk. So, the Federation established a universal Warp Speed limit on all starships except in the case of extreme emergency. That's from the episode Force of Nature in Star Trek: The Next Generation.

Thus, you are the liar.

As I said, the best TOS feat is cracking a small area of a planet. That is IT.

No, it's not: with their full phaser power, original Enterprise cut an asteroid "the size and mass of Earth's moon" in half. This has been brought up before, too.

You are completely pathetic, and debating with you has no possible merit. I motion for this thread to be locked.

 

[Yukaphile]

You claimed you addressed the speed retcon. Are you unfamiliar with Trek? Or are you just being disengenious yourself? Season 2 TNG is long after TOS but before Season 7 where you gave this explanation that they slow down to avoid rupturing space-time. Again, "Force of Nature" is from Season 7! "Q Who" is from Season 2! "Best of Both Worlds" is before that too. It was the season-ending cliffhanger for Seasons 3 and 4. How is it you are a Trek fan and don't know this?

Here's also something from the Season 1 DS9 episode "Battle Lines," which is set in Season 6 TNG, between the episodes "Lessons" and "The Chase" and before "Force of Nature" as well.

(WHOOSH, and they travel through the lines of energy to the Gamma Quadrant.)
BASHIR: Spectacular, isn't it?
OPAKA: More than I imagined.
SISKO: My smoothest ride yet, Major.
BASHIR: There's Idran, the closest system. It's a ternary star.
OPAKA: A doorway into the unknown.
SISKO: The other side of the galaxy, to be precise. The Gamma quadrant is seventy thousand light years from Bajor. It would take our fastest starship over sixty seven years to get here.
OPAKA: I'm glad I got the chance to see it.

I brought this all up in a massive wall of text, challenged you to refute it, AND YOU NEVER DID. Then you claimed you did. You're a liar.

 

[Yukaphile]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Trek_episodes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation_episodes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Star_Trek:_Deep_Space_Nine_episodes

 

[Yukaphile]

https://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Force_of_Nature_(episode)

The ninth episode of Season 7.

 

[Yukaphile]

Challenge my new points, not the first post you made regarding speed. The new stuff I brought up. You never refuted those points. EVER.

 

[Idazmi]

You claimed you addressed the speed retcon. Are you unfamiliar with Trek? Or are you just being disengenious yourself? Season 2 TNG is long after TOS but before Season 7 where you gave this explanation that they slow down to avoid rupturing space-time. Again, "Force of Nature" is from Season 7! "Q Who" is from Season 2! "Best of Both Worlds" is before that too. (...) I brought this all up in a massive wall of text, challenged you to refute it, AND YOU NEVER DID. Then you claimed you did. You're a liar.

We saw Enterprise-D also go to the center of the Galaxy:

https://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/The_Nth_Degree_(episode)#Continuity

"This is not the first Federation starship named Enterprise to travel to the center of the galaxy. In Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, the USS Enterprise-A traveled under the control of Sybok to the mythical Sha Ka Ree, believed to be located at the galactic center, where they met a god-like alien." - Memory Alpha

https://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic_core

In 2269, the USS Enterprise, while on a scientific mission to find the creation point in the galactic core, found an entrance to an alternate universe where magic replaced science. (TAS: "The Magicks of Megas-Tu") - Memory Alpha

The magnetic organism planned to use the Enterprise to head for the galactic core in the hopes of taking over the galaxy. (TAS: "Beyond the Farthest Star") - Memory Alpha

A planet believed to be the mythological planet of Sha Ka Ree was discovered in the galactic core in 2287 by the Vulcan Sybok on board the USS Enterprise-A. (Star Trek V: The Final Frontier) - Memory Alpha

Later, that year, the galactic core was seen on the map "USS Voyager Flight Path". According to this map, the portion of the core located in the Alpha Quadrant had been explored by manned and unmanned probes. (Star Trek: Voyager, Season 7 set artwork) - Memory Alpha

The feats say: they can reach the center of the galaxy. You're also ignoring the moon cutting feat brought up in my previous comment. Simple put, speed discrepancy has nothing to do with the AP, and your contention was about the AP. Now it's about Warp Speeds.

 

[Yukaphile]

That was through Barclay, who was amped by Cytherian technology to become super smart, and I mean near Q level of intellect, into manipulating their engines with alien technology in an unknown way that they would never be able to replicate on their own, and Picard later confirmed that the Cytherians returned them home once they were finished exchanging knowledge. So obviously this wasn't permanent. Seriously, I ask again, how familiar are you with Star Trek? Any Trek fan knows this well. Hell, watch the episode! Picard is not only awed they're at the center of the galaxy, he's stunned by it too. Obviously it's not something they can do ON THEIR OWN.

The Animated Series isn't canon. At all.

The point was to illustrate Kirk's Enterprise was a different era. They were stronger and faster in those times. It's similar to Post-Crisis vs. Pre-Crisis Superman. Pre-Crisis Superman was wanked to all infinity and beyond. Then in the 1980s, they toned down his power to believable levels. Same thing happened with Trek. That's why at many points I said we should go with feats from TNG and DS9 alone, not TOS. Your argument that Voyager is inconsistent, that's fine. But TOS is just as inconsistent when stacked against TNG, so we should discount it too. Like bringing up how the Eugenics Wars was our last world war, but then TNG brings up WWIII. Granted, TOS had talked about early genetics conflicts in the 21st century, but as far as I can tell, they never said it was WWIII. That's my whole point, bringing up the inconsistencies. And as I said, I scale from the Romulan and Cardassian attack on the Founders. I ask again why you dismiss it. Do you hate DS9? Or have you not watched it? Because lately I'm wondering that more and more about you with regards to Trek.

 

[Idazmi]

Challenge my new points, not the first post you made regarding speed. The new stuff I brought up. You never refuted those points. EVER.

Thus admitting that your assertion that I "never" addressed the speed retcon was false. You didn't bring up 'new points' in that debate: you simply never noticed my rebuttal and added more afterwards. Remember you posted:

you gotta accept that Kirk's era was somehow much stronger and faster than the TNG era. They could travel to the center of the galaxy in... only a few hours. While it took Voyager seven years to get home even with the assistance of alien technology and higher-dimensional beings. Don't bring up the feats from Kirk's Enterprise, please.

And I replied:

1. Kirk's Enterprise is canon. 2. I already explained the speed discrepancy. 3. Voyager would have been home at Kirk speeds if not for bad writing: http://web.archive.org/web/20151224...pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WallBangers/StarTrekVoyager

You simply aren't reading the posts, as ByAshura pointed out.

 

[Yukaphile]

I brought up those points earlier on. You just ignored them.

 

[Yukaphile]

Search for the words "two years." I brought it up earlier. You didn't address it. At all.

 

[Yukaphile]

"Canon" doesn't mean the same thing as consistent to the rest of the lore. And no, you didn't. You ignored my new points, but now you're finally getting around to it. And no, I've already pointed out how from Season 2 onward, the ships were slower. I even brought up something from Season 6 TNG/Season 1 DS9!

 

[Yukaphile]

"Force of Nature" may have been setting up for Voyager, but Season 7 TNG wasn't all that good. The creative team was putting all their energy elsewhere, laying the groundwork for Voyager, preparing for Generations, and trying to make DS9 a success like TNG had been. So I don't think relying on that is entirely fair. Especially given the way you've derided Voyager previously.

 

[Idazmi]

Picard is not only awed they're at the center of the galaxy, he's stunned by it too. Obviously it's not something they can do ON THEIR OWN.

TNG exists in the same canon as TOS, remember, so they CAN do it on their own, and have, more than once.

The Animated Series isn't canon. At all.

It was written by the same writers, acted by the same actors, owned and produced by the same company, and there's no official statement from anyone declaring it to be non-canon.

The point was to illustrate Kirk's Enterprise was a different era. They were stronger and faster in those times.

Show me Kirk's Enterprise casually shattering a moon made of iron crystals with a torpedo, or moving a neutron star fragment with it's tractor beam, or stopping an energy wave that can destroy most of a planet, or destroying an asteroid with enough internal gravity to crush and destroy the Enterprise itself. Enterprise-D did all these things: Kirk's didn't. These feats exist and are clear: they don't stop existing just because you don't like them or because you can find a lower feat, and they are more consistent with the rest of the franchise.

 

[Yukaphile]

The Silver Age and the Post-Crisis continuity both exist in the same canon. Are they both the same? No. The power and speed had been scaled down for TNG. Stop ignoring this.

... okay then. But that doesn't diminish my point that Kirk's era was another time.

1) What does the composition have to do with ANYTHING? I asked that before. You never answered. And that "moon" was the size of Phobos. I've hit this point over and over and over again and YOU WON'T LISTEN.

2) Outlier. Even ByAsura agrees on that. Similar to Barclay moving them to the center of the galaxy. It's helped by alien technology they could never replicate on their own.

3) We don't know how much of the planet it'd break up, which is again consistent with country or continental, which is what I already put in the tiering proposals, using the tech guide as a low-end and on screen feats as a high-end! Though as I've already pointed out, Trek planets have tons of materials within them that are very reactive. Wrath of Khan, where the planet just blew up out of nowhere. "Pen Pals." These are not examples limited to Voyager, but when Voyager did it in "Think Tank," it is quite consistent with the other examples given in the rest of the lore.

4) What episode was this feat from? And how big was the asteroid? If you're talking about "The Pegasus," blowing up an asteroid the size of Phobos is impressive, but hardly noteworthy compared to other sci-fi series.

I don't dislike them. But you're blowing them out of proportion to fit your agenda. "Small moon?" Those small moons were asteroidal. They even admitted as such in the episodes they come from! I simply gave a proposal, and you rejected it because it doesn't conform to your headcanon. It is, however, consistent with DS9 and their displays of power when that fleet bombarded a planet, in that either the first or second proposal (most likely the first) would mean the Enterprise is still weaker than them, but can destroy a planet within a short amount of time. It can't destroy a planet in one hit. Not even a fleet can do that. I want to ask you again. Why are you ignoring DS9? You've been doing that a lot in this debate. It's canon just as much as anything else in the Trek franchise.

 

[ByAsura]

Phasers, even on lower yields, being 8-C sounds far too low. I'll do a few calc when I get home.

 

[Yukaphile]

It's from the tech guide, though.