Downgrading the Enterprise-D?

[ByAsura]

There's a ton of other stuff to take into account, including that the bulk of the asteroid impact here is seismic effects on a continental, potentially global scale. I've actually seen calcs based on shaking just hundreds of miles reach stuff like Island level or Large Island level (surprisingly consistent).

That's a good point, but it doesn't really counter the point of things like projections and statements placing it at that size.

Destroying the asteroid was done with calcs from the fragmentation of iron and the size of the asteroid. It's Large Island level to Island level if the whole thing was destroyed, which it might or might not have been. Also, in this case, MT Everest is far smaller and not made of iron.

Ok.

We've kind of reached an impasse here, so I'm going to agree to disagree with the whole asteroid thing, even if you bring up another argument.

Edit: I used diameter instead of radius, so the calcs are wrong. Using a 10 km radius, it's Island level, using 5, it's 1.04800e19 Joules, or Large Mountain level. That makes far more sense.

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the TLDR conclusions here?

 

[Idazmi]

So what are the TLDR conclusions here?

Simple: there are multiple moon-to-planetary scale AP and durability feats for the Enterprise-D and the ships around it in the same series, ranging from obliterating entire planetary surfaces in seconds, to shattering moon sized asteroids that are big enough to have starship-crushing gravity wells, to surviving attacks that destroy whole continents, to deliberately igniting suns to throw their plasma at specific objects in the solar system. There's even a few feats that destroy entire solar systems in this series, and this feat: http://web.archive.org/web/20160505021923im_/http://i.imgur.com/8yg6bkx.jpg <- That is a neutron star fragment. Given the weight of solid neutronium (A teaspoon of neutron star material would weigh about 10 million tons), that fragment has roughly 1000 times the mass of the Earth, and the Enterprise-D managed to move it with it's tractor beam. The Enterprise-D is currently listed as 5-A because it did this by boosting the beam's power to 400% of normal.

Yukaphile wants us to ignore all of these feats entirely and lower the AP to city level, explicitly because, in his own words: "I just don't think the writers ever intended for the Enterprise to be able to destroy the Death Star in one hit." and he read a technical manual that claimed that the Enterprise only has city-level power. The feats just don't agree with him.

 

[ByAsura]

the soliton wave was to be directed towards a colony that would send out the return signal which would dissipate the wave harmlessly, but it had grown in such power by the time it would hit that it would take out most of the planet, though again, as we see in Voyager, and even in TNG, there are many elements and minerals and chemicals and exotic materials that can make a planet unstable and prone to chain reactions. Take a look at the Season 2 Episode "Pen Pals" where it's said the dilithium was going to cause a massive geological calamity. This is actually consistent with Voyager, yeah. Or Wrath of Khan, where Khan himself said Ceti Alpha VI just blew up one day without warning.

They disrupted somewhere near the planet's solar system. The total energy it would have reached to is 200x what it would have been when it destroyed the test ship, while they're talking to the scientist just after, it was 96x. So it should still have been able to blow up a large part of the planet. That's headcanon and not supported by the episode. Plus, he stated that "at that energy level" it will destroy most of the planet, he didn't say it's a large enough reaction to do so.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

The neutron star fragment feat doesn't seem to have been accepted on the OBD, by the way (kinda the opposite).

This isn't to say anything about the other feats, and I'll let the rest of you determine what's most consistent. Just wanted to point that out, in case someone else hadn't, already.

 

[Idazmi]

The neutron star fragment feat doesn't seem to have been accepted on the OBD, by the way (kinda the opposite).

This isn't to say anything about the other feats, and I'll let the rest of you determine what's most consistent. Just wanted to point that out, in case someone else hadn't, already.

http://www.outskirtsbattledomewiki....1301-vessel-profile-uss-enterprise-ncc-1701-d <- That's OBD's page on Enterprise-D. It says:

"Destructive Capacity: Large planet level (at least 125 yottatons of TNT, redirected a neutron star fragment weighing aprox. 10 to the 28th power kg and moving at 0.028c)"

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Strange, considering the calc linked to on its page was argued to not be applicable in the comments.

 

[Idazmi]

Strange, considering the calc linked to on its page was argued to not be applicable in the comments.

Apparently, that argument was overruled - probably because the Enterprise-D used it's own tractor beam and main reactor in the feat. In any case, there it is.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, like Azathoth, I am fine with using explicit feats, such as the ones Idazmi listed, but it might be best if you ask the calc group to evaluate the tractor beam calculation again, by commenting in the blog post in question.

 

[Yukaphile]

Hey, back. As I pointed out, however, with on screen visuals, those moons were around the size of small asteroids. I compared them to Phobos given the size of the Enterprise is 700 meters. Maybe a bit bigger. Idazmi seemed to think the composition of one of them was relevant somehow, though. There is also a scene where a fleet of 20 Romulan Warbirds and Cardassian cruisers were said that it would take one hour to blast away at the crust of a world, and the mantle, within five. That incidates somewhere from continental to small moon. Need the transcript? And the screenshot? But keep in mind that often times the Enterprise was shown to be outgunned when facing one or two or three Romulan Warbirds, such as in "Data's Day," so a fleet of 20 something Warbids with Cardassian ships backing them up? Yeah.

 

[Yukaphile]

TAIN: To answer your question, Garak, no I'm not on a pleasure cruise. This ship is part of a fleet of Romulan and Cardassian vessels. A fleet that will very soon be travelling through the wormhole into the Gamma Quadrant.
ODO: I take it you're not on a mission of peaceful exploration.
TAIN: Not exactly.
ODO: You're going to attack the Dominion, aren't you. You're going to stage a first strike against them before they can come into the Alpha Quadrant.

BASHIR: Are they going to do anything to stop Tain?
TODDMAN [on monitor]: Both the Romulans and the Cardassians claim to be studying ways to stop Tain, but we believe that they'll just sit back and wait to see if he succeeds or not.
DAX: But sir, that could plunge Romulus and Cardassia into war with the Dominion.
TODDMAN [on monitor]: Only if he fails, Lieutenant. His plan looks like it has a fair chance of success. He's commanding a fleet of twenty ships manned by combat veterans. They know the location of the Founders' homeworld and they've modified their cloaks so the Jem'Hadar can't detect their approach.

TAIN: Our plan is to wait until we've entered orbit of the Founders' planet, then decloak and begin massive bombardment.
LOVOK: Computer analysis indicates that the planet's crust will be destroyed within one hour, and the mantle within five.

 

[Hykuu]

Idazmi won this argument dozens of comments ago

 

[Yukaphile]

And you don't even say how. Nice.

 

[Yukaphile]

If the Enterprise-D could blow up a whole planet with one shot, why does it take a fleet to blast down to a planet's core in DS9? And DS9 was helmed by those who gave TNG a tight continuity, such as Ron Moore and Michael Piller, so you can't cite the fact it's a separate series to try and weasel out of that. Especially given that I don't think the writers ever intended for the Enterprise to be the Death Star.

 

[Yukaphile]

If it could blow up a planet in one shot, they wouldn't have needed to use their full complement of torpedoes in "The Pegasus" or could have succeeded in "Deja Q." Given how small those "moons" were, about the size of Phobos.

 

[Yukaphile]

I notice Idazmi never refuted my TLDR post a few comments ago. It's all outlined there.

 

[Yukaphile]

Btw, Garak later commented the Defiant could use its weapons to turn the Founders' new homeworld into a "smoking cinder," and he clearly was talking about the inhabited surface, so that's consistent with small moon to continental levels.

 

[Yukaphile]

Oh, and here's an argument. Another to support the "neutron star fragment is an outlier" thing. Why didn't Riker bring up that they could use their tractor beam to crush the asteroid the Pegasus was in during that episode? If it's really star level, it would be far more efficient than blowing through 250 torpedoes given how close the Romulans are. 250 torpedoes that are rated at 25 isotons and could blow up a city. This destroys the argument the Enterprise had been upgraded to such a degree it was somehow way stronger than it started out as in "Encounter at Farpoint" or something.

 

[Antvasima]

@Yukaphile

It is probably best if you drop this subject, as there seem to be several examples of the Enterprise displaying power of comparable scale.

The issue is whether we should switch to using another feat than the tractor beam.

 

[ByAsura]

I've never seen DS9 (I will, eventually), so I'm not going to comment about that. I found a better method of "weasel[ing] out."

They were going to destroy them with weapons and tractor beams, but they didn't because the former wouldn't have had success due to the fragments covering a larger area, and the latter (which was only amped by the equivalent energy to warp 9, not the neutron star level, and even that only moved the fragment 1.21 degrees) would have destroyed the asteroid-moon and Enterprise, making it useless.

It's already been established that The Pegasus feat is even more of an outlier since the asteroid was so unstable that phaser fire could collapse its caverns. Plus, if they already didn't want to destroy the asteroid, why would Riker bring up the tractor beam idea? Also, again, they were going to do so in Deja Q and have consistently been able to hold ships with enough firepower to destroy asteroids. Geordi even criticizes a modified Pakled Ship's firepower, saying it doesn't even have enough "juice" to destroy an asteroid.

It does not destroy that argument, as it's consistently stated to be stronger. I don't know if it's way stronger though, but it certainly does have greater firepower. (Maybe hold off on this argument, as I'm currently on another Borg episode and could point out some stuff).

Onto another subject, I think that the profile needs a little rewrite in general, even ignoring the AP stuff. More speaking about speed and Powers/Abilities.

 

[Crzer07]

Well, like Azathoth, I am fine with using explicit feats, such as the ones Idazmi listed, but it might be best if you ask the calc group to evaluate the tractor beam calculation again, by commenting in the blog post in question.

The calc was already accepted, the contention was the context behind the feat in question which one of them was attributed to some mass lightening effect and some space-time hax of the tractor beam, to which none of them was involved.

 

[Hykuu]

And you don't even say how. Nice.

It is simple, You haven't really completely addressed any one of his points out, I really don't think you are even getting what he is saying (no offense intended here.)

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I thought that somebody mentioned that the blog was never officially accepted.

 

[Yukaphile]

@Antvasima Seems the mods don't wanna downgrade the Enterprise. Fine then. Though I still wanna address the others' points.

@ByAsura You're really missing something. DS9 is one hell of a show.

To address your points... because... it was an asteroid field? And that if the tractor beam is star level, it could destroy the asteroid in a second. They wouldn't care about the debris left behind because... it's an asteroid field. And "The Pegasus" comment fits in line with what was said in "Deja Q" which debunks the "upgraded Enterprise" argument - or at least debunks the idea it went from small moon level to star level somehow. If their tractor beam carries more power than their torpedoes, then Riker would have mentioned it, hence the star fragment feat is an outlier, at least the way I see it, the same way Superman taking out Imperiex people call an outlier, or his many other universal feats from the Post-Crisis era. It's inconsistent even in a tightly serialized story like TNG and DS9 were.

@Crzer07 I agree. The Enterprise thrives off bending the fabric of space and time through hax, but its actual raw destructive power is deceptively lower. It's not pure DC, it's hax, plain and simple.

@Hykuu And THAT is a LIE. Idazmi never refuted my wall of text before Ant made his reply, and other mods got involved. Maybe he should?

 

[Yukaphile]

@Antvasima BTW, one question I'd asked is why the official guides are discarded. It fits in line with what is said in the show many times. What's your opinion on this?

 

[Yukaphile]

The guide is as follows:

ENTERPRISE-D

Main phasers: 3.6 GW

Photon torpedoes: 64 megatons max theoretical

Sublight acceleration: 1000G

Operational range: 2750 light-years

Shield heat dissipation: 3311 GW peak

Reactor power: ~4 billion GW at max warp 9.6

Max warp speed: ~2000c (warp 9.6)

64 megatons is not only consistent with what Riker had said in "The Pegasus" and "Deja Q," but what Quarren says in "Living Witness" that a photon torpedo could blow up a whole city, and carried 25 isotons.

 

[Yukaphile]

We accept Cell's guide and call Roshi's feat an outlier. Shouldn't the same apply here?

 

[Yukaphile]

I mean, doesn't anyone else think it's ridiculous to claim their tractor beam emits more power than their weapons? Really.

 

[Yukaphile]

Oh, here's something to consider. They had used their warp field in "Deja Q," which was described as warping space and time, to lighten the mass of the "small moon" enough to push, because without that, Geordi confirmed they could not push it. I think that they did something similar to the star fragment.

 

[Yukaphile]

Using space-time warping to lighten an object's mass to push it... that's not actual power, that's hax!

 

[Yukaphile]

GEORDI: You know, this might work. We can't change the gravitational constant of the universe, but if we wrap a low level warp field around that moon, we could reduce its gravitational constant. Make it lighter so we can push it.

 

[ByAsura]

I'm watching the shows chronologically (as in when they've come out, not series timeline), so I've still got a few before.

It's not Star level, it's Large Planet level. It being an asteroid field doesn't adress my argument. Again, I said it was upgraded, not increased millions of times. I don't believe that myself and have expressed that I've found Large Planet level hard to believe (even if amped by a ton) because of how consistent Moon level and Planet level feats are. That also wasn't the point, you asked why they didn't use the tractor beam to destroy the asteroid instead of the torpedoes, and I said it's because they weren't even going to destroy it.

Edit: One example of an upgrade is Genesis. They directly state weapons and tactical systems were upgraded, including an 11% increase of Photon Torpedo firepower and an enhanced targeting system. It was also stated that the phasers were "newly improved".

3.6 Gigawatts is 0.86042065 Tons of TNT, or Building level, which is far, far, far below the Max Torpedoes, despite them damaging similar ships.

Yes, that was after they decided all other options weren't good enough. The power to move the moon that they possessed would have torn it apart, so Geordi took Q's suggesting on "altering the gravitational constant of the Universe" and decided to use it on a moon. It's hax, sure, but there's other methods.

Cell's statement is backed up by the series, multiple games, multiple guides, etc. The Star Trek guides and series offer a ton of different values, except the 2000c for Warp 9.6, that's pretty consistent with Warp 9.

Edit: Now that I think about it, Riker said it has enough armament to pulverize a planet, but he didn't specify all at once. So maybe Moon level with Tractor Beam and Torpedoes, possibly far higher with Phasers, and Small Planet level, possibly far higher Shields if your suggestions of removing Large Planet level are accepted?

 

[Antvasima]

@Antvasima BTW, one question I'd asked is why the official guides are discarded. It fits in line with what is said in the show many times. What's your opinion on this?

We use in-universe feats over guide books, if the latter contradict the former too much.

 

[Yukaphile]

Don't you see? Using the warp field to lighten an object is obviously how they moved that star fragment, and they used alien tech to boost the power. But prior to the star fragment feat, ignoring Kirk's era which was faster and stronger (Idazmi still hasn't addressed my points about the speed inconsistency which I have illustrated above if anyone will actually READ it), the TNG era had only had a few asteroid to continental feats at best. At best.

Well... the ships are about the size of large buildings. This was clearly written with that in mind.

And you're ignoring my argument. If the tractor beam was improved enough to be more powerful than their weapons, it could destroy the asteroid within seconds. You're ignoring the context of the plot, which is that Riker wanted to destroy the asteroid to avoid coming face-to-face with the phase cloak again, and Pressman did not want to do it. He suggested torpedoes, not the tractor beam, which is about pulling and pushing things, not raw power. If it was possible to use their tractor beams to break up the asteroid itself (which is around 27 kilometers, so that would mean a large planet level feat would be more than enough), Riker would have suggested that instead. He would have said, "Captain, I recommend we use the tractor beam. A full spread for a couple of seconds should have it broken up and vaporized." Or something similar. Hence why I see the star fragment feat as an outlier in terms of power, or... that, you know, they are using space-time hax to lighten the object's weight and mass.

You say there's other methods. Are you seriously suggesting they didn't use this to move the star fragment? Given Geordi confirmed within the episode they could only move small moons and asteroids (and the implication is that it's with Q's improvements, and that even that is pushing it?). It took alien technology to make that possible. As it always does. They clearly used space-time hax to tractor the star fragment.

The torpedo yields are consistent too, with what we've seen, numerous times throughout the series. I doubt they could ever do more than blow up a city.

 

[Yukaphile]

I would say the star fragment feat is unquantifiable because, similar to the small moon in "Deja Q," we don't know how much they lightened it in order to push it by.

Idazmi said that a star fragment would have a thousand times the mass of Earth, but again, with the typical technobabble space-time hax applied to the warp field of the tractor beam, who's to say what they did? You can't treat this as a regular star or planetary feat. It just... does not work. At all.

 

[ByAsura]

It wasn't stated they did that. What they actually did was use a Multiphase tractor beam to increase their normal amount by 390%. They would have stated or suggested that they changed its gravitational constant. If they did do that, they would have said something. But, like I said, I don't agree with the feat, even if it's amped.

This is probably the largest outlier of the series, and the Torpedoes (unlike the profile says) are generally comparable to the Phasers.

I wasn't ignoring your argument. It can (as it's easily destroyed ships of this level, would have done that in Deja Q, and blowing up asteroids is easily for ships), and I didn't know the plot, just what Idazmi said, because I just can't remember the episode. Doesn't mean it's less powerful or can't do that, maybe he just didn't think of it.

No, the episode does that. Also, that isn't even what I said, I was talking about the Deja Q moon, not the fragment.

Ok, so one statement over harming shields and ships with durability that even you admit is much higher. Also, remember the Large Mountai and Island level feat I calced for them?

I'm getting tired of arguing (not in the sense that it's annoyance) because you seem to switch a lot between feats, going from Building level, to City level, to Continent level, to Moon level, and all the watt values inbetween, despite us both establishing that they're extremely inconsistent earlier.

 

[Yukaphile]

Then it's obviously an outlier of the highest degree. Or, they applied Q's technique without bringing it up. It is something they can do now.

Actually, their torpedoes are always implied to be stronger. "The Nth Degree." They were fleeing the probe. Phasers didn't work. What would work was a torpedo, but they were too close, because it would cripple them. Barclay had to amp their shields in order to take a hit from the torpedo. The tech guide is actually consistent here, in that torpedoes are stronger. Way stronger.

Okay. I do wish Idazmi had countered a lot of the points I brought up in that huge wall of text. I was finally making a stronger case, and then Hykuu comes in and calls me an idiot, claims I'm losing somehow. Well, at least now you guys know why I see it that they're only a surface-busting threat, given context of the plot and what I've said so far. I know the boards will never acccept that, but I figure, why not have a healthy debate? We can come to some sort of consensus.

Does what? :O

Huh?

 

[ByAsura]

It probably is an outlier. As I've said quite a bit, the writers probably don't go out of their way to see the actual math.

That's interesting. It was also the same case in Q Who, where the Enterprise was going to use Torpedoes after their Phasers were ineffective against the adapted Borg Ship, but they didn't because it'd destroy the Enterprise from kilometers away, albiet the shields were down.

Essentially, you're not exactly being consistent with your arguments in terms of AP. But the show isn't either.

I'm gonna wait for the show where UFoP gets powerful enough to level Galaxies and reach Warp 10 (as in the infinite one) casually.

 

[Yukaphile]

Yup.

You see?

Yes.

Huh?

 

[Idazmi]

Okay. I thought that somebody mentioned that the blog was never officially accepted.

It was: http://www.outskirtsbattledomewiki....1301-vessel-profile-uss-enterprise-ncc-1701-d

OBD clearly accepted that feat: they list the enterprise-D as "Large planet level (at least 125 yottatons of TNT, redirected a neutron star fragment weighing aprox. 1028 kg and moving at 0.028c)". At this point, Yukaphile is just being stubborn.