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No, you definitely didn't watch all of Star Trek: this ship has feats like moving neutron star fragments with it's own internal energy, destroying a sun by firing at it, stopping a planet-shattering FTL energy wave by shooting it. It's torpedoes are stated to be able to shatter an iron moon, and it's predecessor could both survive and dish out continent level attacks.Yukaphile said:I've watched all of Star Trek, and I really don't believe that ship is capable of blowing up a planet.
The series Star Trek: Enterprise is a prequel that takes place two whole centuries before the Enterprise-D was ever built. The technology has demonstrably improved since then.Yukaphile said:Hell, even in Enterprise, they couldn't blow up planets, though they could with the right tech.
Only if you want to ignore feats. Kirk's Enterprise could (barely) split a rocky moon with it's phasers. The Enterprise-D can blast an iron moon into pieces with torpedoes... and that's not the only example. Combined with the feats of it's predecessor, it's clear that there's a definite increase in technology between Star Trek and Star Trek: The Next Generation.Context! There is no way it could shatter a whole planet with a phaser blast. Even in DS9 said:Kirk's Enterprise was far stronger than the Enterprise-D.
Cardassian cruisers are nowhere near comparable technology. The Phoenix destroyed one with a single photon torpedo, and Galaxy Class starships esteem them as minor nuisances:Yukaphile said:They are ships of comparable technology, Romulan warbirds and Cardassian cruisers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAwAThWr9Tg - Riker DID NOT say that it would take their whole torpedo payload to destroy it. You are also flatly wrong about the size: the asteroid was so big that it would take six hours to find a ship that had crashed inside it. It also had it's own gravity and was stated to be able to fall in on itself and crush the Enterprise. That makes it the size of a moon.Yukaphile said:If the Enterprise-D had planetary-blasting power, then when they went after the asteroid in "The Pegasus" that was only like five kilometers in size, why did Riker insist it would take their whole torpedo payload to destroy it? That's like 200 torpedoes? Rather than a single volley? That's what I mean when I say their power changes and it's inconsistent.
I already explained that the Enterprise was literally inside the asteroid. Because of that, a single full yield torpedo blast would destroy the Enterprise AND the asteroid. Like shooting a tank killing missile while still inside the tank.Yukaphile said:Point being, they said it would take more than one shot. Also, you're misconstruing things. Riker suggested they blow up the asteroid before entering it to impede the Romulans from getting their hands on a Federation starship. It wouldn't be an issue if they could just fire one torpedo and take it out or shoot one phaser blast and take it out. The only reason that they didn't unleash their whole barrage is the admiral in charge of the mission overruled him because he desperately wanted to seize the phase cloak on board the old vessel.
That's not an example of a power level change: that's you assuming that there's only one way to blow up a star. The trilithium torpedo built by Tolian Soran was made with contemporary Romulan tech. The Enterprise also destroyed a sun with torpedoes: ergo, Star Trek has various ways to blow up a sun - all by making the sun explode itself, so the Star Busting feats have no effect on the AP.Yukaphile said:This is my whole point, that you seem to have a hard time wrapping your head around; their power levels change depending on plot, and they're inconsistent as hell. Like when a Klingon bird of prey made a star go nova, and yet in other instances, you need protomatter and trilithium to accomplish such a feat, exotic chemicals, and not actually weapons. With that logic, do we bump a Klingon bird of prey up to 4-C now? Higher than the Enterprise-D? Higher than the Enterprise-D? Also something to note is Voyager's episode "Think Tank" where we see them meddle with a planet loaded with dilithium and other exotic minerals, and it blows up.
Starship Weapon EffectsYukaphile said:Maybe it's not actual planet-busting, but chain-reaction effects? Like, say, bombarding planets with the frequency-based NDF chain-reaction weapons phasers tend to be?
Yes, as ByAsura's post above proves. The Enterprise (either Kirk's or Picard's) would destroy the Death Star quite casually.Yukaphile said:And other particle weapons? You seriously have not watched Trek if you believe the Enterprise could destroy the Death Star in one shot. Kirk's Enterprise, sure, it took on the Doomsday Machine, and traveled to the center of the galaxy (tech superior to a century later). But the Enterprise-D? No.
This thread is not about the Enterprise's firepower compared against the Death Star's. It's about the Enterprise, only, and there's no room for this sort of fandom rivalry on a wiki like this: it obscures the facts at hand in favor of a desired outcome.Yukaphile said:Or that given best showing, a Klingon bird of prey could do it since it took out a star. But do we go by best showings? Because if we do, the Death Star's superlaser has been calced to be much higher than the baseline for planet-busting. It might even hit the star ranges.
DATA: "This asteroid contains several deep chasms large enough for a starship to enter. It is possible the Pegasus drifted into the asteroid's gravitational field and was pulled down into one of the fissures."Yukaphile said:Oh, and you're overestimating the size of that asteroid to boot. With an absolute highball, it would still be maybe 20 km. The size of a small city. Since we see the Enterprise next to something called the "Argus Array," and it is similarly tiny. It was confirmed within the episode there was "ionizing radiation" in the asteroid belt they and the Romulans were searching that would slow down their scanners, hence why it would take six hours to pinpoint an exact location.
Most of the guides you refer to (Such as the oft referenced Star Trek The Next Generation Technical Manual) are not canon by way of contradiction. Star Trek's average feats actually far, far exceed your claims, as this thread is handily demonstrating.Yukaphile said:We don't rate Post-Crisis Superman by his best feats, we sort of gauge what's in the middle. Why rate the Enterprise-D so high when on average, their best attacks are mountain to continental level, to be generous? Not to mention the official tech guides that put their weapons at very low levels of power. (...) I don't get why the Enterprise-D is ranked so got-danged high given the logic of this site.
The reference for the 5-A feat is the episode The Masterpiece Society (transcript here). Quoting from that transcript:ByAsura said:(...) Essentially, it still has some Planet level or Moon level feats. I do think Large Planet level is an outlier though. (...)
LAFORGE: "Transferring warp power to tractor beam generator." HANNAH: "Graviton generators operating normally. Surge pulse now synchronised. Emitters radiating at three hundred twenty percent over standard." LAFORGE: "Bridge, we need more power." (...) HANNAH: "Four hundred percent over standard." LAFORGE: "Okay. Now we're getting there." HANNAH: "The fragment's moved point four degrees off its previous heading. Point six five. It's working."
He is grasping at straws. As I alluded to earlier, he's not interested in accurate scaling: he wants to downplay Star Trek feats because he's uncomfortable with Star Trek having higher feats than Star Wars. The problem is, Star Trek simply has higher feats, and a lot of them.ByAsura said:Are you talking to me or Idazmi? Either way this point has nothing to do with the entire thread. The two universes also have an enormously different scale of power, so you shouldn't even be comparing them. It just seems like you're grasping at straws here, and it's not like ships in Star Trek haven't bombarded a planet's surface to slag.
Yet, there's a lot of clear planet level feats in the series right after TOS. Even Star Trek's most primitive tech end compares favorably to Star Wars' largest canonical warships:Yukaphile said:(...) I'm not denying planet-level feats, but I'm also trying to tell you there's extremely poor showings as well, in an equal amount, that you're not listening to me about. And to date, we have NEVER seen the Enterprise blow up a planet in one hit like the Death Star. Maybe it should be bumped down to 5-C. I wasn't talking about putting it at Tier 6. But planet level is pure wank. (...)
(a beam lances out from the belly of the Enterprise) TAITT: The target area of the photosphere is destabilising. Pressure wave expansion is accelerating. BARNABY: Subsurface fusion has been initiated. An eruption is forming on the surface. (the eruption ejects from the sun and destroys the Borg ship) BARNABY: She did it! The Borg ship has been destroyed, sir.
He also referred back to Voyager, even though we both corrected him on Voyager's documented continuity issues. He's ignoring the contexts given in the scripts, explanations from both of us, and hastily rummaging for justifications to ignore any of Star Trek's canonical feats that somehow make him uncomfortable. The problem here is clear: his proposal isn't about Star Trek. It's about Star Wars. More specifically, reducing Star Trek to a level that Star Wars can exceed, regardless of feats.ByAsura said:You're blatantly disregarding this point that I've brought up a multitude of times. (...) I was saying you were grasping at straws for the Star Wars argument, where you compared two verses of different power to say stuff like "do you believe the enterprise could destroy the Death Star?" I was also saying you were using debunked arguments for the afformentioned Star Wars argument, the soliton wave being about frequency, and the moon of Bre'el IV. (...)
1. "too awful" is subjective. 2. Both of those sources have been brought up already. 3. The feats that you hate so much are canon.Yukaphile said:(...) And there are some thing that are part of an official canon fans don't want to be, material like Enterprise and Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, which are too awful to consider real Trek material, but they are canon.
I'm not a person to make any kind of accusation lightly. Your argument essentially boils down to "you should falsify and ignore all of Star Trek's planetary feats because I like Star Wars more". You points have been logically addressed already:Yukaphile said:(...) I also feel scandalized you accuse me of downplaying Trek when that neutron star fragment is just one among... many. (...)
Adjustable yields: Starfleet wouldn't destroy cities or planets without reason, and - as I already explained - the Borg were making a distraction, and had a vested interest in NOT destroying their "target".Yukaphile said:when their weapons hit a Trabe ship, and the surrounding city isn't leveled, or the Borg's weapons are more akin to mortars. (...) The actual number of planetary feats for ships in Trek are very minor compared to the numerous other low showings.
http://web.archive.org/web/20151224...pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WallBangers/StarTrekVoyager <- Say what you may about fans deciding on their own that something is "too awful" to be canon, Voyager is objectively bad as a canon resource, even unto itself. That's why there's eight folders of notable (and often incredible) logical contradictions Voyager made. One of those folders is devoted to a single episode instead of an entire season like the others.Yukaphile said:(...) Are you trying to claim Voyager is not as powerful as the Enterprise-D? Because it's a far more advanced ship, so... that logic crumbles.
We both know that's not how that went pal. The content of my post is entirely visible above and can be compared against your claims.Yukaphile said:Saw your new post. OMG... you call me a Trek downplayer? I call you Trek wankers! You're bringing up Archer's Enterprise blasting a mountain off a moon to claim that's a planet level feat?! It's a MOUNTAIN LEVEL FEAT!
1. Kirk's Enterprise is canon. 2. I already explained the speed discrepancy. 3. Voyager would have been home at Kirk speeds if not for bad writing: http://web.archive.org/web/20151224...pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WallBangers/StarTrekVoyagerYukaphile said:I didn't see that episode, but you gotta accept that Kirk's era was somehow much stronger and faster than the TNG era. They could travel to the center of the galaxy in... only a few hours. While it took Voyager seven years to get home even with the assistance of alien technology and higher-dimensional beings. Don't bring up the feats from Kirk's Enterprise, please.
You brought this up already: you are ignoring that Geordi specified that the Jenolan was faster than Enterprise-D at impulse, not Warp Speed. I explained this already, too. (At this rate, I's fully expect you to claim that he's saying the Jenolan could outrun the Enterprise-D's full warp speed with only it's impulse drive. No, that's not what he's saying.)Yukaphile said:I mean, how do you not see that it's inconsistent that they had inferior speed a century later, even though Geordi compliments the Jenolan's design and insists that not much has changed?
<sarcasm> Yes, because the Maquis - a small group of terrorists - had free and unrestricted access to upgraded Galaxy Class starships and various other planet-killer technologies, and the Cardassian homeworld - capital of a highly militant dictatorship - is totally defenseless and easily accessible. <sarcasm>Yukaphile said:Why did the Maquis use biogenic weapons and not actually blow up Cardassian planets? Oh I can already hear your argument a mile off, "because they wanted to settle the planets!" I maintain that they would have blown up Cardassia Prime instead
You're the one denying that any energy transfer was needed to generate the wave, as if they did the feats by telekinesis or something. And I also said that the star feats don't affect the AP because they are making the star react, not casually blasting the star away. It stands to reason that they couldn't do what they do with no energy at all. It certainly takes more energy than a few city-busting nukes could output.Yukaphile said:They caused a chain reaction in the sun to make it send out a shock wave. That's ALL. You're claiming they used their power to make it explode. (...) Oh, and before you bring it up, Kurn's ship used their exhaust to shoot up a shock wave to take out the other birds of prey pursuing them. It was not raw destructive powere, AGAIN. So stop trying to push them to damn near star level.
The problem being that your arguments have already been addressed and debunked. Every single argument you made was one that had been addressed earlier.Yukaphile said:And I could bring up even more too, but I'll stop here for now. All you'll do, however, is just insist "he's using debunked arguments," "grasping at straws" INSTEAD OF ADDRESSING MY ARGUMENTS. Bah. And then I get called a Trek downplayer. STOP TREATING ME AS IF I'M AN IDIOT WHO IS UNFAMILIAR WITH THE FRANCHISE.