Downgrading the Enterprise-D?

[ByAsura]

But that lower yield phaser thing contradicts the series. Even lower yields have vaporised buildings and melted massive commets.

Even standard hand-held phasers can output more than that.

 

[Yukaphile]

The yield given was 3 GW.

 

[Yukaphile]

I also don't recall a phaser ever vaping a building. Was it in TOS or Enterprise?

 

[ByAsura]

TOS. I can't remember the exact episode, and it wasn't like a skyscraper.

 

[Yukaphile]

High 8-C is large building level, man...

 

[ByAsura]

I know, but vaporising a building is far different from collapsing it (which building level tiers are). Even fragmentising a skyscraper is 8-A to Low 7-C. [1]

 

[Yukaphile]

The problem is... what feat are you going to base it on...? Because the series is horribly inconsistent. That's why I use the tech guide as a low-end. Because it clearly gives 3 GW for phasers, 64 megatons for torpedoes, and use feats for the high-ends.

 

[ByAsura]

I already explained, melting massive commets, vaporising buildings, cutting through ice, etc. Even standard phasers alone can pack more power than the tech guide's phaser yield.

The tech guide isn't always right.

 

[Yukaphile]

But what were the settings for those, huh? They could have been substantially higher than the minimum.

 

[Yukaphile]

Oh don't tell me you buy into Riker's bluff that a Level 16 phaser would blast out the whole building? He was clearly BSing to the guys mindscrewing his head. We see a Level 16 handheld phaser earlier, I think when he was killing Yuta, and it didn't resemble that effect at ALL.

 

[Yukaphile]

Plus we see handheld weapons in DS9. They aren't that powerful. At ALL.

 

[ByAsura]

They were substantially higher than minimum hand-held phaser, but that's not the point. On kill settings they've vaporised humans and rocks.

 

[Yukaphile]

And... your point is? You should calc how much you could destroy with 3 GW, because otherwise, you'd have to painstakingly go through all the times a phaser was ever used in Trek, to pinpoint the lowest yield ever used. Otherwise, no one is going to agree on that. Because it could have been any potential yield and frequency!

 

[ByAsura]

My point is that even minimum yields should be far stronger than anything a standard hand-held phaser could achieve.

What's your point here? That I shouldn't use actual series feats over a guide?

 

[Yukaphile]

Pinpointing the minimum showing in a show with 700 hours of runtime is... going to be tricky. That's why I went with 3 GW. Besides, it was written by actual people working on the show, so their input matters. We accept the guide for Cell. And some of their low-end showings are very consistent with this.

 

[ByAsura]

I've got a few episodes in mind, it won't be that tricky. It's written by them yes, but they're also equally as inconsistent in terms of numbers. We accept the Cell guide because it's backed up by multiple guides, extra media (games, anime, etc), interviews, powerscaling, and feats. Maybe there is, but not on minimal, there's actually a lot of High 8-C phaser feats that are done on maximum, making them an outlier.

 

[Idazmi]

My point is that even minimum yields should be far stronger than anything a standard hand-held phaser could achieve.

What's your point here? That I shouldn't use actual series feats over a guide?

(...)

But that lower yield phaser thing contradicts the series. Even lower yields have vaporised buildings and melted massive commets.

Even standard hand-held phasers can output more than that.

Why are we even tolerating him at this point? It's just as I said: he wants to reduce the AP regardless of demonstrated feats and call everything above building-level an outlier, in a franchise that uses antimatter for power and has CLEAR FEATS of blasting mountains apart in it's prequel installment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQRIgREnA9U - By his logic, we could use the feat in this link to lower Goku's God form to small building level.

 

[ByAsura]

I was looking through Star Trek and found a feat.



Borg Planet = 532 px / 12,742,000 meters (It's definitely comparable to Earth)

Panel Height = 837 px

2atan(tan(70/2)*(532/837)) = 0.585038088 radians or 33.520213296886 degrees

Plugging these values into the angular size calculator gets 21155000 meters

The explosion took 2 seconds to get to the position where the Borg Cube was, making the speed 10577500 m/s

(0.5)(5.97200e24)(10577500^2) = 3.3408415e+38 J

Since there were 9 ships, the total value becomes 3.71204611e37 J

Each Ship = 8.87200313098 Ninatons (Large Planet level+). You can actually see the debris in a later scene, so it's not just a wave.

These ships are far more powerful than the USS Enterprise NCC-1701-D from what little I do understand about this series, but this feat is still 3285 times more than baseline Large Planet level and nearly 150,000 times more than baseline Planet level. However, I'm unsure how powerful they actually are in comparison due to not watching Voyager.

Not going to say whether or not this is an outlier, but it should be noted that this is very consistent for the bio ships as they do this constantly, especially when it comes to Borg Planets. Also, it was meant to be like the Death Star.

 

[Antvasima]

@Idazmi

I think that you make sense, but please mind your language.

Do you think that we should use the tractor beam feat or use another more destructive feat to scale from?

@Yukaphile

It seems best if you stop responding to this thread and permanently stop talking about this topic at all in this wiki, as you have been extremely unreasonable and constantly spam replies in a quantity over quality manner.

@ByAsura

Can you place that calculation in a blog post and ask the calc group for evaluations, or would it be unnecessary?

 

[ByAsura]

Seems somewhat unnecessary. It's a fairly simple calc.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if we are going to use it, it needs to be placed in a blog post.

I meant unnecessary as in: "Would the Enterprise or any other profile even scale from this?"

 

[ByAsura]

Ok.

I'm not sure and am waiting for confirmation on that.

 

[Crzer07]

Well Voyager was no slouch, as it tanked one of those ships blasts and went to maximum warp.

 

[ByAsura]

In that case I'll create a blog. But tomorrow.

 

[Yukaphile]

That's invalid. The Borg were tractoring Voyager away from the planetary blast. That's during "Scorpion" when Species 8472 blew up a planet. Here's a link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4LR6Ev27FQ

And as Idazmi will tell you, Voyager is inconsistent. Though I suppose we could argue them tanking the blast of one bioship is consistent with continental level shielding and AP and DC, given it was 9 ships that blew up a planet, as you see in the video.

What I want to know is why my posting of the Romulan/Cardassian fleet bombarding a planet is being ignored?

 

[Yukaphile]

PILOT: We are within disruptor range.
LOVOK: Scan the planet for life-signs.
PILOT: Sensors show multiple lifeforms on the surface. They appear to be in a liquid state.
GARAK: The Founders.
TAIN: Signal the fleet to charge weapons and lock onto their targets. We will open fire the moment we drop our cloaks.
PILOT: All ships report ready. All weapons charged.
TAIN: So much for the Dominion. Open fire.
PILOT: The first barrage is complete.
TAIN: Effect?
PILOT: Thirty percent of the planetary crust destroyed on opening volley. No change in lifeform readings.
TAIN: What? That's impossible. Some of them had to be killed.
PILOT: Our sensor readings have been confirmed by three other warbirds. There has been no change in the number of life-signs on the surface.
GARAK: They're using an automated transponder to send back false sensor readings. The planet's deserted.

A single Romulan Warbird is always shown to be equal to the Enterprise-D, or perhaps sometimes a little stronger. Like with "Tin Man." Where they knocked their shields down to 30% with just a few hits. Or in "The Defector" where three Warbirds could have captured the Enterprise, the same as in "Data's Day." A Cardassian ship isn't as powerful as a Galaxy-class ship, but that was implied to be a Galor-class ship, and these were Keldon-class ships, which might be able to give a Galaxy-class ship a fight. Maybe.

The showing here, when scaled to a Galaxy-class ship (unless you think the Enterprise could beat a fleet of 20 ships during a pivotal moment in the franchise's history), would be consistent with my proposed tiering.

For phasers, High 8-C at lowest frequencies, 6-B at maximum frequencies | For photon torpedoes, 7-B at lowest yield, 6-A at highest yield.

Or the second one.

For phasers, High 8-C at lowest frequencies, 6-A at maximum frequencies | For photon torpedoes, 7-B at lowest yield, High 6-A at highest yield.

Because scaling the Enterprise to planetary means that you'd have to scale every single ship that's ever appeared in the franchise to planetary.

 

[ByAsura]

I just can't sleep.

Anyway, how does the borg being tractored away make that feat invalid? That is not the point of it at all, it's just calculating the energy of the planet being blown up via kinetic energy by the ship. I even provided the same link to show this.

Yeah, you very well ignored that last part. They do this all the time, especially to borg planets. Voyager may be inconsistent, but this feat is extremely consistent.

Phasers have damaged targets that photon torpedoes have, one may be stronger, but they should both be in the same tier. They're also consistently used in concert when attacking.

 

[Yukaphile]

Because they were a good distance away from it. And it's another form of inconsistent scaling, because if you're going to scale planetary feats to Voyager, you're going to have to scale it to every single ship that's ever appeared in the franchise. That's a can of worms I don't think we should open. Like if they have planetary level shielding, why did their ship get overrun by a bunch of Kazon back in "Basics?" And the Kazon themselves don't have very good feats. Scaling in Star Trek is tricky, and I'd advise against this.

Meanwhile, we have a clear example of how powerful their weapons are with the fleet bombarding a planet. I ask again, why is that being ignored?

 

[ByAsura]

That's, again, not the point, it's the distance the fragments traveled via angular sizing, not the ships. You already grabbed feats from Voyager, I just got one that's actually consistent with the type of ship. Whose shields? The Voyager's, Species 8472's, etc? You grossly exaggerated that part about scaling everyone as well, it doesn't and I was actually asking who would.

I don't know, I'm not the one ignoring it, just finding other feats.

 

[Yukaphile]

Voyager's shields. Even Idazmi conceded it's inconsistent as hell when stacked against the likes of TNG and DS9. So anything you find probably won't be considered usable.

For me, personally, I think the Romulan/Cardassian fleet's showing is not only consistent with what Kirk's Enterprise did, but it's also a good way to measure power because they were going there to kill the Founders. They would do so in the most efficient and quickest way possible. So the plot was on their side to show off maximum destruction ****. And they didn't blow up the planet instantly. It would take five hours just to blast down to the core, by statements. A Romulan Warbird has been shown many times to not only be a match for the Enterprise-D, it's sometimes implied it could beat them under the right circumstances, like in "Tin Man" where they knocked out their shields by a good chunk of power.

WORF: Captain. Our sensors are detecting a subspace wave front of highly ionised particles preceding the object which is tracking us.
(Troi and Tam have entered)
PICARD: Yellow Alert. On screen.
(It's green and mean)
WORF: Romulan warbird closing. They are arming main disruptors, Captain.
PICARD: Go to Red Alert. Shields to maximum.
RIKER: Arm photon torpedoes and stand by, Mister Worf.
WORF: Aye, sir.
RIKER: I thought you said the Enterprise was faster than this Romulan.
DATA: In fact, we are, Commander. However
PICARD: Evasive, Mister Crusher. Hailing frequencies.
TAM: I guarantee that they don't want to talk to you, Captain.
(Weapons hit, and the lights dim. The Romulan makes a strafing run then heads for the star)
WORF: The Romulan has passed us.
PICARD: Damage report.
WORF: Casualties reported. Seventy percent loss to the shields.
TAM: Their attack on us was incidental, Captain.
PICARD: Incidental?
TAM: Yes. To delay us.

And while a Galor-class Cardassian ship is indeed no match for a Galaxy-class ship, it's implied a Keldon-class ship is stronger, and could possibly do much more damage, so that these ships are equivalent to one Galaxy-class ship. So the showing is very much valid to use. I think it should be the high-water mark by which to measure feats. Not all that nebulous other stuff.

 

[Antvasima]

Yuka, you were supposed to stop responding, so the rest of us can get anywhere.

 

[Yukaphile]

Okay, I'll stop then, if that's what you really want. I've said my piece, I guess.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

 

[Supreme-Emperor-Over]

Then I agree with people we can be certain we have made peace

 

[Idazmi]

@Idazmi

I think that you make sense, but please mind your language.

Do you think that we should use the tractor beam feat or use another more destructive feat to scale from?

I apologize for the language: I let myself get frustrated.

As for the feat, I think we should use the tractor beam feat as the Enterprise's highest possible Attack Potency, simply because it's an unambiguous feat: the Enterprise moved the core fragment using it's own internal power - which feeds directly into the phasers. It's worth noting that they funneled almost the entire output of the Enterprise through the tractor beam to achieve that, so it's not as if every single shot they ever fired could be expected to casually vaporize a planet.

Addressing ByAsura's concern that the weapons aren't on the same tier, both are on Tier 5 according to the tiering system. Since - unlike phasers - the torpedoes aren't powered through the main reactor, they simply can't be scaled to the reactor the way phasers can be. So, the Soliton Wave feat, and the fact that they could shatter the asteroid moon in Q-Who easily places them in 5-C.

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to get the highest feats for their regular weapons' output calculated as well, so we can list it as "5-C with regular weapons. 5-A with the tractor beam", or something similar?

 

[Idazmi]

Perhaps it would be a good idea to get the highest feats for their regular weapons' output calculated as well, so we can list it as "5-C with regular weapons. 5-A with the tractor beam", or something similar?

Yes, though I wouldn't word it exactly like that: their "regular weapon" - the phaser - channels it's power directly from the main reactor, just like the tractor beam does. The tractor beam feat was achieved by funneling the whole output of the ship's reactor through the tractor beam, leaving almost no energy over for other tasks like protecting the ship, or even basic life support. The Enterprise crew did a similar thing to the Navigational Deflector Dish to use it as a weapon, though when they did that they still had a lot of energy going into the shields and the like, since they were under attack.

It's a matter of energy conservation: their attacks clearly are 5-C on high average, but if they need to, they have demonstrated the ability to throw all of the ship's available power into a single 5-A attack. Notably, the torpedoes do not draw their energy from the reactor, because they are munitions: all their power is stored inside of an adjustable-yield warhead.

This means the torpedoes are 5-C at max. It also means they can still launch torpedoes if the ship has doesn't have enough available energy for the other weapons.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That seems to make sense.

 

[Yukaphile]

Since it's been three days since the last post, the mods aren't talking this over, and it seems no one is interested in calcing the Romulan/Cardassian fleet feat, well... I wanna ask something. Idazmi, how do you feel about a compromise? Namely, this:

For phasers, High 8-C at lowest frequencies, 6-B at maximum frequencies | For photon torpedoes, 7-B at lowest yield, 6-A at highest yield | 5-A with tractor beam AP

Or the second one.

For phasers, High 8-C at lowest frequencies, 6-A at maximum frequencies | For photon torpedoes, 7-B at lowest yield, High 6-A at highest yield | 5-A with tractor beam AP

Because I feel the tractor beam feat is an outlier, or achieved through an alien technology they could never replicate on their own - because with your logic, the Enterprise could use the technology Barclay used to throw them 30,000 light-years, even though that's no more valid to use than when Q did that to them. It's an outside influence. But I digress. So, how about this - we include the tractor beam AP, but keep the actual DC we see with their weapons? Because their weapons have never gone higher than that, and remember that with phaser and torpedo DC, I'm scaling to what that fleet did, and going off the assumption that A) That fleet could destroy the Enterprise-D in a heartbeat, obviously, and B) That they couldn't instantly destroy the planet with their weapons.

So, how do you feel about this, Idazmi? A compromise? Because I really think this is going to cause horrible problems down the line if the Enterprise-D is ever used in debates with other sci-fi verses, with people like you agreeing to that high-end, and people like me calling it an outlier. What do you think? Is this acceptable?

 

[Supreme-Emperor-Over]

Yeah a Compromise is better