• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Downgrading the Dream Depot's size to at least low 2-C.

Theuser789 said:
>Plus, we have like more than 10 people who agree with me, Saikou, DatOneWeeb, and Dino that this is easily 2-B sized

That's ad populum
Click to expand...
Yeah, the number of people agreeing doesn't matter, after the precedent was set from the Nights into Dreams and the Maginaryworld threads.
 
Antvasima said:
Hmm. That thread should probably be revived then, if somebody is willing to try to find it.
Click to expand...
Is somebody willing to help out with this?
 
In the Nights into Dreams and the Maginaryworld threads, there was over whelming support for the OP but only one or two persons disagreed with it which stop anything from happening and it dragged on for over a month. Popular consensus for one side doesn't matter thanks to that precedent.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
There is such as thing as Islands and planets fusing together when two or more Universes or Space-Time Continuums merge together. Much like what happens in MK Vs DC, so the Islands getting formed really doesn't mean anything. There's still this sca saying that many dreams arrive at the Dream Depot everyday. And that it contains every single dream dimension. Plus, Saikou said it best that every word in the book is being heavily knit picked.
Also, this sca still shows each and every dream a these bubbles of parallel worlds. Future Dream, which alone has more than enough Universal statements, is only one of them. And the "Outside visials showing only the maps or one character, is a non-argument because on the outside, the Universes from Dragon Ball Super showcase visuals that show only one galaxy or even a few characters on the outside despite them being universes. Plus, we have like more than 10 people who agree with me, Saikou, DatOneWeeb, and Dino that this is easily 2-B sized.
Click to expand...
None of that is evidence of all the dreams being universes. Saikou claiming it's nitpicked doesn't mean anything when there's direct evidence showing that there are dream worlds that are in fact not universe sized considering you need the Dream Eggs to expand them and the "worlds" made by the dreams from the dream eggs were literally each just a small amount of land that is shown as ending at football field sized from one end to the other. You are merely appealing to authority. We do know the size of those worlds, and that leads me to conclude not all dream worlds need to be literal universe sized and dreams just being the size of islands.

Again, each universe in DBS is outright called a universe in their names, so that's a false equivalency. Dragon Ball Supers bubbles aren't Mario Party 5's bubbles. The aesthetic design in the ending credits is not remotely proof of anything when statements and stronger evidence implies a difference in sizes inside those dreams and worlds already. Also it doesn't matter how many people agree with you if you don't have good arguments. As you yourself would say, "quality over quantity."
 
Matthew could come back to the thread too. Idk, there's enough of a majority that agree with downgrading so trying to tally this up to decide on those merits seems silly given that threshold has passed.
 
Agrees with the downgrade: Maverick Zero X, ShakeResounding, Godhand1999, and Matthew Schroeder. (4 votes)

Disagrees with the downgrade: Saikou The Lewd King, DatOneWeeb, LSirLancelotDuLacl, DarkDragonMedeus, LordGriffin1000, NotAMarioFan(lol), King of Baptist Come, Dino Ranger Black, Sadistic Sleuth, Celestial Pegasus, LuckyEmile, and PlozAlachaz (12 votes)

Neutral: ElixirBlue, Theuser789 (2 Votes)
 
I would appreciate input from other staff members.
 
Looking through the arguments covered throughout this thread, it's clear both sides of this case have some issues with them, but I feel strong enough evidence to not support the downgrade has been provided. Therefore I disagree with the downgrade. I usually write lengthier responses, but to be honest most of what I wish to say has already been covered and so in the end it would amount to very little.
 
Whatever strong evidence there is to not support the downgrade has not been provided. The arguments against the downgrade hinge on either outright denial of evidence going against them by baselessly claiming it to be gameplay mechanics (even though it's in the cutscenes) or flowery language, mentioning games that don't even have the Dream Depot in it, false analogies, and poisoning the well with ad-hominem attacks against the OP (wbich have stopped, but still).
 
DatOneWeeb said:
Agrees with the downgrade: Maverick Zero X, ShakeResounding, Godhand1999, Theuser789, PlozAlachaz, and Matthew Schroeder. (6 votes)
Disagrees with the downgrade: Saikou The Lewd King, DatOneWeeb, LSirLancelotDuLacl, DarkDragonMedeus, LordGriffin1000, NotAMarioFan(lol), King of Baptist Come, Dino Ranger Black, Sadistic Sleuth, Celestial Pegasus, and LuckyEmile. (11 votes)
Click to expand...
Ploz actually Disagrees
 
Ploz said he only agrees with Cal that being civil is important, which I also agree. Anyway, writing up another long post before I have to go to work again.
 
PlozAlcachaz said:
I'm in agreement with others on poisoning the well. Even if we were to say Mephistus as a person isn't trusworthy, that doesn't mean the points are suddenly incorrect. Not only that, it just looks really desperate in general to arbitrarily pull in something like that. All it serves is to derail the thread with commentary with something that's not even related to the topic at hand.
Anyway, I respectfully disagree though with the reasons brought up beforehand.
Click to expand...
I misread it as him saying he disagrees with the opposing side.
 
And yeah, User and Shake originally said they were neutral, but mainly sided with Mephistus. And User even said he agreed with Dino Ranger Black at one point. At least regarding that there's clearly more than one Dream Dimension in Dream Team.
 
First of all, it's not just the majority that are against the downgrade, but the fact is several Admins, including a combination of people both far more knowledgeable on the verse than anyone who supports the downgrade put together (Dino Ranger Black and DatOneWeeb), as well as people knowledgeable on differentiating the difference between pocket realities from universes as well as universes from multiverses (Saikou). Also, it's more like 14 given LuckyEmile, RustyOne, LightBuster, and Js250476 have been kudosing Saikou and sever others who are against the downgrade (LuckyEmile also commented himself).

And actually, I already knew the OP was going to make this thread in some way or form primarily with the motivation that a few other verses had 2-B upgrades rejected based on completely different contexts. I'm not saying this out of an attack, but pointing out the fact that he himself also said it on that other thread. In those other verses, it's "A Totality multiple dream dimensions put together was stated to mirror the universe" rather than individual dream dimensions. While here, it's we have one dream dimension alone is easily Universe sized, and that same Universe sized dimension is minuscule compared to the rest of the collection. Therefore, Dream Depot is easily Multiversal, and all dream dimensions are parallel to each other and thus they're all universes. Also, the OP has continued to make snarky and condescending comments such as "Island sized worlds I bet, lol" Nothing ban worthy, but still not reasonable behavior.

Anyway, @Antvasima Future Dream is confirmed to be Universe sized because of this. When it says "Wonders of the Universe" it's referred to as a Dream that contains the Universe. Same with the term Dream of the Universe. Although some people want to interpret that as "Dream within the Universe" that makes no sense as all Dream Worlds are stated to be outside the Universe. Toy Dream is not "Dream inside toys" it's Dream filled with toys. Sweet Dream is no "Dream inside delicious candy, it's Dream filled with delicious Candy. So in other words, Future Dream is a Universe.

And it's still minuscule compared to the rest of Dream Depot. The OP still made a bunch of counter intuitive arguments and has contradicted his own stuff. One of the primary routes of his arguments is that "Mario and his friends Dream the biggest", as the primary statement to assume they vary in size with Mario and his friends Dreams being the biggest. It's counter intuitive because not only is that flowery as heck, it only reaffirms that Mario and Luigi's Dreams would have to be bigger than Future Dream if anything. We don't know whose Dream Future Dream is, but we know Subcon is Mario's Dream and than Luigi has multiple Dreams in Dream Team. He claims that Subcon only has visuals of being 4-A sized due to the starry sky, but that's the same thing as someone claiming our Universe is only 4-A sized because that's all we see. And Subspace is parallel to Subcon, so it would have to be the same size as Subcon. Subcon and Subspace would both have to be those same yellow bubbles given that fact that even the OP states Everyone's Dream is within the Dream Depot.

Anyway, again. Using the Dream Eggs to expand land has nothing to do with Worlds not being Universe sized. One can create Islands or planets and other things less than Universe sized by merging two Universes together. Or merge two continents together by merging two Universes. Still, there is not given size to the actual Dream World in that game. It's still only talking about the size of the level, not the size of the dimension. How comes the background was unchanged when the Island was created. It's not like it was nothing but a spaceless Void before the Island was born, there was literally some Ocean there and therefore three dimensional space. Also, of course they'd have to use the Dream Egg to create the Island because if they tried to create things the traditional way, all they do is just create more dimensions rather than forming new paths within the same dimension. Luigi's goal was to look for Peach, not to expanding dream worlds. Which Peach was literally hidden in that same Dream World far beyond the access point and travel point. Proving it's far bigger than we see on the map.

Also, while where on topic, the Football field or Island argument still contradict the fact that there's a planet to run laps around during the Luginary Ball attack. Also, some of the same Dream Worlds that Mephistus claimed to be "Small" also still had star constellations that Luigi can control. No one against the downgrade is denying evidence, and quite the contrary. And actually, as someone who literally wrote the bulleted list of examples, I would no the policy on "Collection of worlds/dimensions". I could also add/remove examples from the list when given approval from other staff members.

If there is a giant collection of world/dimensions with at least one of those individual dimensions being Universe sized, and that same "Universe sized dimension" is shown to be placed right next to all of those other dimensions and at the same time is minuscule compared to the entire collection, then they're all Universes. Saying Future Dream is the only Universe sized one is the same thing as having a Beach where there exists one grain of sand that's infinity bigger than the rest of the Beach.

Furthermore, it isn't just the Mushroom Kingdom that has residents producing Dream Dimensions, even characters from other Universes are having Dreams and producing more Dream Dimensions. But even people in the afterlife create Dreams as shown in Super Paper Mario. And on top of that, even cells, atoms and molecules have been shown to sleep in Bowser's Inside story, which some conversations also implied they were having dreams. And heck, in Dream Team, even residents from the Dream Dimensions have Dreams and Dream Dimensions get produced from that.

So in otherwords, it's stupidly arbitrary to assume only one dimensions that's clearly on the same shelf as every other dimension is universe sized, while only two dimensions on that same shelf are "Parallel dimensions". It's more logical for them all to be parallel Universes just like how Persona treats them. The only thing to disprove them being a multiverse is if none of them are Universes and/or that none of them are parallel. Which is not the case for reasons above.
 
Medeus seems to make sense to me. Perhaps we should close this?
 
That's y it was added back I'm pretty sure the standards of the universe page provided enough information for the dream depot and medeus showed enough info for it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

SuperMarioGamers3
  • Locked
Super Mario Bros. 2-A CRT
2 3
Replies
111
Views
5K
Omnificence
Omnificence
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara
  • Locked
Dreams Into Nightmares [Mario Cosmology Downgrade]
9 10 11
Replies
433
Views
29K
Deagonx
Deagonx
TheGatememer
  • Locked
Fire Emblem Heroes: Low 1-C Update
2
Replies
56
Views
4K
TheGatememer
TheGatememer
JJSliderman
  • Locked
Sonic Cosmology 5Ds: Dreams, Dimensions, Data, Delusions, and Downgrades
2
Replies
71
Views
5K
JJSliderman
JJSliderman
ShakeResounding
  • Locked
Life Is But A Dream: Sonic Dream Team CRT
Replies
33
Views
3K
ShakeResounding
ShakeResounding
Back
Top