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Downgrading the Dream Depot's size to at least low 2-C.

Saying I did this or that is not an argument, but sure. I even explained myself, but you are free to act like I didn't I guess.

Considering the number of counter arguments and people disagreeing... not really? Is not going through.

It not being the normal assumption is entirely pointless and a waste of time when it has been mentioned numerous times why assuming they are all this size is a credible assumption, while your only counter was "dreaming big" as an expression by Bowser, a very common expression literally anyone ever has used and that you would be burdened to prove refers to the context you are giving it. Obviously you haven't convinced anyone of this, me neither.

Again, a nitpicking based on basic english. You don't ever use the word dream in the singular sense unless you are specifically talking of a singular, defined dream or the capacity to dream itself, in a literal or metaphorical sense. Is honestly the equivalent of arguing pants must mean multiples even though a single set of pants is always referred to in a plural sense. The plurarity of it having any other meaning or context is, again, your burden to prove.

Okay, and in what sense were they refered to as small...? I dream big if I want to be a millionare instead of having a stable job, yet with no proof you've zeroed in the use of the word "big" as a signifier for the objective size of the dream worlds except of, you know, a metaphorical meaning. You also used this as an argument when Mario and his friends were referred to as "dreaming big" with absolutely non existent proof, despite common sense telling you that the common saying "dreaming big" is way more commonly used in the way I've explained. Acting like words are used in a literal sense without an indication of the opposite is not proof, is a really weird misunderstanding lacking solid foundation as an argument.
 
Yeah, I will act like you didn't do anything because you didn't put up any arguement at all with that. Funny how that works.

Matthew, Maverick, Godhand1999, and Shake clearly agree so...you are blind if you think these people not supporting keeping 2-B aren't voicing their agreement to have the downgrade go through. Votes don't really matter, but representation from both moderators and staff along with regular members in this thread certainly show why this downgrade will be happening since the logic is sound.

The credible assumption on them all being the same size is literally just that, baseless. Its your burden to provide proof of the positive claim.

You rely on calling it nitpicking when you haven't shown the actual noun to be meaning anything else than literal and the plurality is simply used in everyday language as plural. Figurative meaning of dreams there gives dreams a context of literally meaning dreams are less than universes and mere aspirations via the characters doing the action of dreaming and therefore have zero size.

The signifier being literal is up to context, which can be interpreted here as a non literal, which literally only hurts the pro 2-B case. If the indication there is that the dreams in any case are being non literal, then that already kills any notion that dreaming in of itself needs to involve dream worlds of any size.

The rest of your response literally covered nothing of further discussion in my very last post that can already be shown above as agreed upon by other members as proofs for a downgrade for the Dream Depot to low 2-C. Your disagreement and avoidance of those points lead only to me regarding your post as a burden of rejoinder.
 
Mephistus said:
So, some new infos found from the official M&L: Dream Team Guidebook that pretty much confirm what I've been saying along with the aformentioned stuff I've pointed out above.

This is a random dream world lacking any stars / galaxies in the sky or something we can tell of its size being cosmic sized and we actually get a statement of the dream size being called and remarked as a "small dream world" via the guidebook; the dream is visually as big as its settings of being a small forest with a blue sky and pollen dust floating around. This is a dream world that is dreamt up by one of the many random fantasy creatures met in the game.

"This is a very small dream world with only one nightmare chunk."

If you want to argue the sizes of all dreams / dream worlds don't vary in literal size to be small or big in when its actually spoonfed via size and stated via size at least some are small...I really don't know what else to tell you after reading this other than that is wrong assumption to make to be assuming each dream from every being in the game is the same size.

The guide actually points this out regarding size for multiple other dreams that they are outright small too and said ones lack any visuals providing that they are cosmic sized, further showing that there are differences in spatial sizes between at least some dreams. Another such example of a different dream dreamt up by a pi'illo lacking stars / galaxies visually and outright claimed to be small:

"There are only two nightmare chunks in this small dream world, but you must use a new Luginary Work to reach them, as well as one of the ? Blocks here."

Some dudes here disagree with using Mario and co's statement as being able to dream spatially bigger than the star spirits as not being literal and are calling it hyperbole, which 2 other mods; Saikou and Darkdragon, and a few other regular members have expressed they don't want to use the statement due to personal interpretation, it kinda brings this convo back to me questioning again why all dreams that are dreamt up need to be the same size? We are legit left with no real benchmark of the Dream Depot's overall size other than the Future Dream being a stated universe if we can't assume dreams Mario and his friends have actually dreamt up and exist currently are the size of a universe or greater. If we can't use that statement of them defaultly dreaming bigger and have to rely on on the Future Dream then frankly I'm still for this downgrade, out of actually wanting this rating to be accurate.
Click to expand...
Literally the small dream world itself expanded beyond the dead end size that is miniscule af . There is zero reason to think that they are all the same size even then if a few are dreamt up to be smaller than others.
 
Ugh... yeah, still not convinced.

I am not about to say the same thing again multiple times so, I am still against this.

Count votes if you want, I don't know, I just don't have the time for this sort of endless back and forth that goes nowhere. A lot has been said so people can form opinions.
 
You not being left convinced....isnt a convincing arguement. :p

I don't really mind counting votes if it needs to come to that since this is a popular series.
 
It is a convincing argument. This has been argued to death and back. If we decided to act like people couldn't come to a conclusion after a point has been argued extensively, no CRT would ever end.

I am not sure votes is the way to go, but I guess you could ask Ant or Medeus. Or message any other admin or potentially knowledgeable people.
 
Mephistus said:
I'll ask a couple more moderators since this oughta get a better consensus.
Click to expand...
^I'm quite sure this means this isn't concluded. Merlight's just waiting for other Staff members to give their opinions.
 
Let's not close it. At least, not yet, Ant. I've been bothered several times about this thread already from both sides of the argument and it will be eventually brought up again as a result without said conclusion on the matter, which I personally, rather not be bothered again over. I skimmed through some of these posts and tbh I really don't know what some of the argument is or the relevancy to the main topic since some stuff like the rupee quote or these dimension theories doesn't really add up to the topic. I'm rather apathetic tbh. When everything is said and done on the matter, if necessary, you can call me back so we can see what to do next.
 
Okay. I suppose that this thread should remain open for a while longer then.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
We outright visually see Seadric only creating new islands to travel farther in the dream.
Click to expand...
le bumping

https://youtu.be/S9K2m8dGYu8?t=1974

"A Dream egg, would let you, y'now expand the dream world! Like, fwooooooosh! Y'know? Dream Eggs hold MORE dreams!"

Even going by your own interpretation, multiple dreams that come from the dream egg only create stuff only the size of islands going by what Seadric says about the dream eggs that increase the dream world's size. And these islands were created with 3 Dream Eggs, which each hold a plural amount of dreams. So, at best, 3 dreams = some islands in this dream world is your arguement for the size of individual dreams. Which honestly doesn't add up to all dreams making universes or being the size when they can be small scale stuff like mere islands.
 
That's still describing the size of the gameplay area or traveling ground rather than the spatial size of the dimension. And it's still arguing against the fact there are Luiginary attacks that showcase starry skies within each and every single Dream World. Absolutly nothing contradicts them all having cosmic sizes. Again, the dream eggs being plural is still flowery.

Also, all Dream Worlds clearly have their own starry skies, given Zeekeeper's flight statement still mentions traveling through alternate dimensions.
 
That the island sized levels is described to be made up of dreams made by the dream egg seadric uses, emphasis on plural, its pretty clear what that entails then regarding size of individual dreams not being on a cosmic scale.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyTmQ3ujr8c&feature=youtu.be&t=405

^Luigi doesn't jump into the sky/outerspace for this one, stated to be small.

The quote just says dimensions , not alternate dimensions, so, that's not accurate at all, some dream worlds in of themselves are stated to be small and some have small ends to them less than a football field.

Being called dimensions isn't a qualifier for any size anyway.
 
Again, the plot of Dream Team is that many different Dream Worlds are getting merged, similar to Dark Kahn feat merging two Universes, but with many more. That would explain the "Made of multiple dreams". And Dino brought a scan for that of Luigi's and Bowser's dreams getting merged.

The portal example wasn't the reference, the reference was the fact that each Dream World has a planet to run laps around during the Luginary Ball. If it was only Island or football field sized, why isn't their s spatial wall blocking them from accessing further? And Giant Dream Luigi still leaps off the atmosphere to the point where the starry sky is visable.

Dimension still means body of space, whether it means Universe or pocket reality is up to debate, but those are addressed for other reasons. The general Dimensions when plural and not referring to Spatial-temporal dimensions, it's most commonly referred to as other bodies of space.

Still Future Dream is still a parallel bubble to every other dream in Dream Depot, and "Pixel scaling Mario's height to the part map" doesn't hammer down the size only the map location. Plus it's the same as arguing the towns in Dragon Quest are smaller than the people, or that Kirby's planets are 9-A sized.
 
Again, the plot of Dream Team is that many different Dream Worlds are getting merged, similar to Dark Kahn feat merging two Universes, but with many more. That would explain the "Made of multiple dreams". And Dino brought a scan for that of Luigi's and Bowser's dreams getting merged.

>Dreams merging says nothing about the size of every one of them so this is irrelevant. Doesn't change the fact that the one dream coming from a dream egg, if not more than one dream, only made a island sized object. That pretty much kills the notion these dreams need to be universe size by default.

The portal example wasn't the reference, the reference was the fact that each Dream World has a planet to run laps around during the Luginary Ball. And Giant Dream Luigi still leaps off the atmosphere to the point where the starry sky is visable.

>So, no scan of him jumping in that particular dimension or that particular dimension holding stars? The one you linked above isn't even in the same dreams called small in the guidebook, let alone every one of them.

Dimension still means body of space, whether it means Universe or pocket reality is up to debate, but those are addressed for other reasons. The general Dimensions when plural and not referring to Spatial-temporal dimensions, it's most commonly referred to as other bodies of space.

>So, why call it alternate dimensions when thats not even what's said? You are misquoting lol. Dimensions can be of any size in fiction, doesn't mean really anything if some are just being called that or have to be all the same sizes. Heck, its not like he couldn't be travelling dimensionally through just the one dream they were in, not even the quote itself needs to be referring to the dream worlds themselves as different dimensions and could just be referring to the Zeekeeper's dimensional travel capabilities.

Still Future Dream is still a parallel bubble to every other dream in Dream Depot, and "Pixel scaling Mario's height to the part map" doesn't hammer down the size only the map location. Plus it's the same as arguing the towns in Dragon Quest are smaller than the people, or that Kirby's planets are 9-A sized.

>When you are claiming using the visual outward size of the bubbles to say they are the same size inside, which isnt even internally consistent given the visuals having a limited inward look inside and varying here, it really doesn't work with the visual cutoffs for the bubble when we see in them. Its like arguing overworld maps need to be consistent in size here, and still doesn't affect the stated size of some dreams within to be smaller than others. Its a bad analogy when the dream worlds are outright shown to be limited to a certain known visual scope told and shown to us less than a universe in size and need to be expanded by using Dream Eggs, said dream egg makes an island sized object with one dream to add to the size of the dream world itself, making it only island sized initially.
 
Dreams Deep is still a Nasir (A cosmic sized Abyss). Dreams being small is still nothing beyond gameplay lingo or just forming landmasses when it expands, nothing to do with 3-dimensional space. Again, Dreams are still flowery here and it wasn't expanded just because someone went to sleep. Those are just magic eggs made from dreams and not that there are dreams inside it. It's still constantly stating "New worlds" are born each and every single time someone sleeps. It's always only one dream that's required to create one dream dimension which we have many cosmic sized dream dimensions made from just one.

The Overworld example is false. They don't have to be consistent in size because they rarely ever are. And often times, overworlds aren't even entire the entire planet or Universe they're in. That's like assuming most RPG's take place in some pocket reality less than planetary. However, a "Collection of dimensions" where each of them are bubbles on the outside is in indication of "Parallel worlds and dimensions". Also, you're comparing a few finite sized objects to a few more other finite sized objects. Why would on "Infinite sized object" be visually the same size as every other dimension on the outside but infinitely bigger than all the rest on the inside put together?
 
If every dream shares the same space, that nasir example doesn't work in favor for them being independent and each infinite for a 2-B rating. Some dreams being small is outright stated as smaller on the inside based on us given clear borders where they end and that means they vary in size anyway on the inside. That these so called infinite sized dreams actually have clear ends to them is enough evidence they aren't all universed sized, for some. The dream egg is stated to hold more dreams by seadric himself, not be made from dreams, don't misquote unless you want to link this verbatim, i already stated linked this above, which you are ignoring. The dream(s) from the dream egg added made a traversable island clearly not the size of a frickin universe in entire width shown as less than a football field which we can see in gameplay is pretty much my final deal breaker with the rest of my points, dreams coming from any peeps in the verse aren't made out to be making whole universes all the darn time, and only a specific one dream in the depot holds has that backing.

The outward visual sizes of the bubbles aren't consistent to begin with so the bubble comparison doesn't work, regardless that we know they vary in size within via statements and shown. You stated that a bigger sized dream would need to be represented by a bigger bubble or look different, that doesn't even hold up without a citation and their inward scalable size for the width of each bubble is variable. The dreams looking that way is a purely aesthetic style of them showing inside and not showing the whole dream regardless
 
And it's already addressed that none of the dreams share the same body of space, only that they've recieved portals to each other due to the connections in lore. Still, he's not saying there are literal dream dimensions contained in the Dream Egg, just some flowery language of dream condiments.

Actually, the bubbles all do look the same size in the ending credits. The fact remains is that there exists at least one Dream dimension that's Universe sized, and that Universe sized dimension is still minuscule compared to the totality of all Dream Dimensions put together.
 
Which doesn't provide any evidence that this location (dreams deep) can't be accessed between dreams by portals nor contradict the actually onscreen stated and shown small size of certain dreams. That doesn't reconcile them all being the same size and, again, if you can physically travel to the same location in spatially disconnected locations, they aren't spatially disconnected then and that totally kills the point of the 2-B rating. The dreams anyone can have that make dimensions are equally as true as these same equivalent dreams coming from the dream egg making a small island, not a literal sized universe, that much is clear. The dreams that the dream egg added wasn't a universe. It was a literal island. So, like with the small dream i linked from youtube, island sized dreams are a thing.

The bubbles actually aren't the same size visually speaking when you appeal to that since they vary on inward length of what we can see from dozens of meters to maybe two meters of actual width for many of the bubbles and their actual depth of what we can see inside does vary to just that same width. Nor does that reconcile stated size differences inside. Known sizes on the inside matters anyway. You seem to completely be unable to back with a citation that a bigger dream would need to look different and be a bigger bubble.
 
All dreams are literally stated by outside sources as being different worlds or dimensions, that shows different bodies of space. The statement alone has nothing to do with size yes, but they're proof they don't share bodies of space. Still, Zeekeeper has dimensional travel for a reason. And no, Dream's Deep included is it's own body of space.

Saikou and Dino already addressed everything here and both of them are quite level headed regarding topics like this. The latter even said he'd rather not even want to get involved again if possible. Actually, I don't need to because this is a common standard. The different realities being these bubbles are parallel indications. And we already have two evidences of at least two dream worlds being both parallel and cosmic size, we don't need selective knit picking.
 
So, that doesn't prove anything sizewise for the stated and shown smaller dreams with the dreams deep reference you gave unless they are spatially interconnected , which is shooting yourself in the foot here. Nadir in of itself isn't even a term to specificly elaborated here in the media that something is infinite nor has a set definition, it can mean many different things outside of bottomless pit eg; The word is also used figuratively to mean the lowest point of a person's spirits,[2 or the quality of an activity or profession] spirits,[2] or the quality of an activity or profession. It could literally just mean a dream that is based off dark or is has the trait of being gloomy for all you can interpret from dreambert's words. Zeekeeper dimensionally travelling in the same dream is up to your interpretation here, still can mean he's travelling in the same dimension ig. Being called dimensions doesn't mean they are all the same size regardless, so idk why you bother pointing it out again when i've addressed that already.

Still not refuting the dreams from the dream egg only being island sized as what plainly happened? There's no lingo or flowerly language to be argued here because dreams inherently are just called dreams. Dreams make dream worlds, the mouser statement does mean dreams, dreams make islands and small island sized dream worlds. That the dreams from the dream egg were something smaller than a universe is plainly evident that none need to be all assumed to be the same size regardless and be just an island made for example each time someone dreams and not always be unvierse sized spatial dimension created. Literally if you accept that a dream can only create that small travel area then that seals that all dreams or dream worlds don't need to be the same size via being based from a dream. A "dream" of the universe isnt equivalent to the size of "dream" that made a small island but they are both dreams. No such statement in this thread groups all dreams to be equivalent in size though, nor all being outright called parallel, which is contradicted on many levels. The galaxies thing is a false equivalency anyway since dreams are equalized here as being the same concept that exists as a dream in verse.

I already addressed everything too and and gave my input, I really don't care to continue this unless other moderators want to get a better consensus here since there are a lot that agree on both sides. My opinion on this stays given the discussion so far. The only two dreams being parallel have only evidence of being 4-A sized, nor does this not generalize all dreams given statements and required proof for dreams outside those two which are wildly contradicted based on the nature of dreams being based on many smaller stuff than a universe. The assumption that they are all the same is baseless still if you are only going with single examples and not a concrete statement. No two bubbles don't look the same visually when welook inside them, so that compariso already is off if they aren't identical, nevermind that the bubble opening sizes are variable already. The dreams from the dream egg that created the island certainly looks nothing like Subcon so your arguement is definitely not working for me lol.
 
Actually, there's a lot of contradictions to the Dreams being island sized. Because one, it's parallel to other dream worlds that are cosmic in size. Nadir by definition means a literal bottomless pit; and it's clearly not referring to a person's spirits given we're talking about a world/dimension. It still says Dimension(s) plural regarding Zeekeeper. Dream's Deep is still another Dream World separate and parallel from the others. Being called dimensions has nothing to do with size, I already pointed that out. It's the other details that address this.

Mouser stating he can "Destroy sweet dreams" isn't taken literally as busting entire Dream Worlds, so not every single use of the word Dreams is referring to Dream Dimensions. Again, creating islands is only creating travel areas and not the actual spatial dimension expanding; Dino already addressed this. It's the same thing as the galaxies argument. Also, if they're the same collection, there's 0 reason for only two of them to be parallel or only one of them to be Universe sized. Especially since one of the parallel dreams is Mario's dream and thus one of the "Big ones". And the fact that Dream worlds have residents who dream and create dream worlds with those dream worlds having residents who dream and create more dream worlds also expands upon the inflationary multiverse.

And yes, I'd rather not discuss this any further, and Dino only wants to get involved if the conclusion is met, which it's doesn't appear to any time soon. Still, there's 0 reason for Bowser's Nightmare to be smaller than Future Dream. Saikou already addressed that in detail. Bubbles only showing part of what's in it is like the Universes in DBS only showing a galaxy. Doesn't argue against Future Dream and the others being universe sized; nothing does. But I could ask him again via wall.
 
There is such as thing as Islands and planets fusing together when two or more Universes or Space-Time Continuums merge together. Much like what happens in MK Vs DC, so the Islands getting formed really doesn't mean anything. There's still this sca saying that many dreams arrive at the Dream Depot everyday. And that it contains every single dream dimension. Plus, Saikou said it best that every word in the book is being heavily knit picked.

Also, this sca still shows each and every dream a these bubbles of parallel worlds. Future Dream, which alone has more than enough Universal statements, is only one of them. And the "Outside visials showing only the maps or one character, is a non-argument because on the outside, the Universes from Dragon Ball Super showcase visuals that show only one galaxy or even a few characters on the outside despite them being universes. Plus, we have like more than 10 people who agree with me, Saikou, DatOneWeeb, and Dino that this is easily 2-B sized. This includes 3 Admins + the main Mario expert.
 
Have the dreams ever been described as universe-sized, or shown to contain many galaxies? I think that our new standards require that, or was that discussion never concluded?
 
Hmm. That thread should probably be revived then, if somebody is willing to try to find it.
 
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