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Downgrading the Dream Depot's size to at least low 2-C.

I'm over here slapping my face right now. LAND =/= SPACE. Again, ad nauseam. How did I ignore what you said? Your first argument was that the blue sky is all we can go by, I replied to this with the Giant Dreamy Luigi example. Seriously, this is the same case. Look at it. Actually look at it. Blue sky. We see a blue sky. But you can actually reach out farther. I've explained this already several times but you have yet to actually point this out. Stop claiming the dream worlds are small only because there is little land as that does not mean it has small space.

Size is not being added. Land is. There's a difference. There needs to be added land so they have something to stand o, they aren't just going to be floating the entire time. Seadric is not making space. Stop it with this already. I am constantly having to type the exact same thing.
 
If a planet had only one Island with the rest of it being ocean, it would still be a planet. And if a Universe had only one planet with the rest of it being empty space, it would still be a Universe. Also, a Blue sky is simply the effect the sun has bouncing on the planet. Scientifically, a sky would either be pitch black or blank white if there was no sun. Typically the former though.

Also, DatOneWeeb is also being far more reasonable here.
 
TMI. I'm frustrated by your input here too since you are the one commiting ad naseam.

That same land is stated to expand the dream world. Not the level. Dream World. That is what is described wholly here as being increased here, not a part of it, actually state where it says a part of it by the guide or by characters if you want to claim this. If it has a static size, it wouldn't be increased at all.

The borders of which are clearly pointed out here as being at an end point being less than football field sized. The blue sky doesn't determine the limits being beyond even more than an atmosphere length unless actually shown because when Dreambert actually states this clear end of the dream itself to us and cements this as a fact. The blue sky is literally just scenery appeal backdrop at best unless we see it outright that there is something beyond it, which we actually have dreambert to go by stating that the dream world itself ends at a football field length. The character and guidebook statements speak for themselves that the dream worlds spatial size as small given they actually use that word to describe it.

@DDM

Pocket dimensions don't need to hold a sun to have a blue sky like with my prior example of a city block sized dimension, likewise, having a blue sky in certain dimensions doesn't imply it needs to have something beyond it at all, especially when its borders are outright spoonfed to us. This is fiction.

Also,the sky isn't even a typical blue one, its partly green.
 
Dino Ranger Black has already commented and he also disagrees with the OP, but we may ask him again. Furthermore, I already have other details that I'll write up shortly.
 
Considering that Dino was using a statement to justify 2-B that everyone doesn't want to use apparently, its probably best to get his input here again and also address the other stuff i have pointed out about dreams being shared and small.

I'd like to point out that some further inconsistencies of single dreams stated in verse are actually limited in scope as well, being of wholly mundane objects not on a cosmic scale, but this is probs the most glaring issues brought up.
 
@Medeus

Okay.

Can you provide an easy to understand summary of the arguments and concusions here?
 
@Dino, fair enough. I'm more than half way done my post and have it saved in case Fandom eats it, but I'll explain it. But you can just agree with that after reading it.
 
After scrolling up above, I noticed this very sca provided 100% proves all the Dream Worlds in the Dream Depot are indeed parallel. Quite literally each and every bubble you see on display is a Dream World. It's very similar to the Universe Bubbles shown in Dragon Ball Super. So two statements are true; the Future Dream is clearly a Universe given the multiple statements addressed both in the OP and multiple times throughout the thread, and it's a spec compared to the totality of the Dream Depot, and it's comparable if not equal in size to all those other dreams. So by conclusion, a Universe is still a spec compared to the Dream Depot and is 2-B as a result. And before you say "The Bubble only shows Mario driving a ship" that's a visual fallacy. In DBS, outside the bubbles appear to show one galaxy for each Universe. But inside them, they're clearly entire Universes.

The first paragraph alone should be all you need to confirm the 2-B ratings, but obviously you want more. Now back to the main point, DatOneWeeb is not using Ad Nauseam, he's using common sense. The World expanding literally just refers to the level or the land they can travel expanding. The Back Ground already existed before the bridge was created. This is the same thing people assuming the Earth grows bigger when all they did was discover new land masses or formed bridges to new locations. It has nothing to do with the spatial dimension expanding. Also, to elaborate on what DatOneWeeb has been saying and you keep ignoring. Small refers to the level and not the literal world.

Starry Sky in Dream Team
This happens in some of the same Dream Worlds you keep claiming have no starry skies, but in the same video where Luigi jumps, we clearly see the starry sky. So this permanently debunks the whole "The Dream World is only the size of a football field" assumption. It's clearly cosmic sized and anyone with common sense can see this. All dream worlds are also very consistently stated to be separate and that lore mentions them being merged. Emphasis that the word dimensions is plural confirming they're all different bodies of spaces. And each has a starry sky when one jumps. They clearly have different skies. Also, you randomly brought up the Painting world from Mario 64; actually, we're in the process of upgrading those painting worlds to 4-A structure which will in turn effect Base Mario. But that's off topic.

Also, I have the need to bring up Subcon and Subspace from Super Mario Bros 2 again. We already know that they're parallel to each other given the mirror statements as well as having starry sky backgrounds, but given that at least two dream worlds within the Dream Depot are parallel to each other and we have at least one dream world withing the Dream Depot having more than enough evidence to be considered an entire Universe. Subcon/Subspace in combination to Future Dream being a Universe is still consistent to Nolrem's statement about there "Being a front and back to every dimension" meaning all worlds have their parallel mirror worlds. Which would also include Future Dream. A Mirror Future Dream would also have to be both a Universe and a Dream World at the same time if it was truly a mirror. It's best to just confirm they're all the same size. Otherwise, the ending credits would have just portrayed Future Dream as being a bubble far bigger than every other bubble put together. But it doesn't, they're all the same sized bubbles as seen in the video linked in the first paragraph. Each and every dream world is like a bubble that exists side by side and are comparable in size. Therefore, they're all parallel universes.

Again, assuming scopes, visuals, exploration ability, or themes equates to size is also extremely fallacious and we'd be downplaying a bunch of pocket reality/Multiverse creators by that very logic. They're frequently used simply to describe the attraction or battlefield and not the rest of the world whenever is describing the area. Some statements tend to contradict themselves from time to time and they usually use "Small" statements just to make the players easy to understand the navigation through the game rather than referring to cosmology/lore. It's about as accurate as characters stating "Press the B Button to attack" among other things and assuming Mario literally has to press a B button to attack rather than referring to the player.

Also, I know what's what everyone's mind regarding this. As @Mephistus was the one who admitted he was going to make this thread on a certain other thread regarding seemingly similar structured cosmology that uses different context. Now, between Dream Depot, Maginary World, and Night Dimension/Nightopia, they're all described as worlds containing numerous worlds as well as and all consist of many worlds made from someone's dream. But the difference here is context. And all the individual Dream Worlds while massive individually, are mere specs compared to the full cosmology. Yes, they all contain many worlds that are each legit different bodies of space, but when it comes to calling them Pocket Realities Vs Universes; or better yet calling the cosmologies Universes Vs Multiverses, there is a conditional branch for each.

That conditional Branch is this, if the entire Cosmology is the same size as the Universe, then the totality is Universal while each sub dimension is less than that. But if one of the sub dimensions is a Universe, then they're all Universes while the totality is a Multiverse. Regarding the Dreams becoming entire worlds, this is how it works. If at least one of them contains a planet, they should at be at least planet sized individually. If at least one contains a sun, they should all be High 4-C sized at bare minimum individually. And if at least one contains a starry sky, they should all be 4-A sized at bare minimum individually. And if at least one contains galaxies, they should all be 3-B sized at bare minimum individually. But the real concern is if at least one of the sub-dimensions/dreams is Universe sized, then they're all universes. Unless otherwise stated or if one or more is treated as something that dwarfs all the others in significance or size.

Now to cut to the chase. In Sonic Shuffle, Maginary World wasn't accepted as 2-B structure because none of the individual Dream Worlds were stated to be Universes or compared to the Universe. Emerald Coast had summer like Islands and was Knuckles dream becoming reality, Fire Bird is Tails' dream has airplanes and a unrealistic by visible galaxy looking thing in the sky (Unrealistic because galaxies aren't visible in the real world), Nature Zone has a forest and is Amy's Dream, and Sonic's dream has a Train Track and is Sonic's dream. And although they have "Your world" or "Your dream becoming reality" that doesn't quite meant alternate realities or Universes. Fourth Dimension Space is the only alleged Universe, but the literal textbook description is it's the literal world where every other dream is contained. Meaning although while it's arguably Universe sized, every other dream is a literal spec compared to it. Plus Maginary World is called a parallel Universe and non of the individual dreams.

Same with Nights Into Dreams. Helen's Dream and Will's dream have been called "Your world" and some of the various Nightopians have "Creating the own happy world" as statements. But those don't quite mean Universes. Nightopia is called a "Parallel Universe" and it contains many worlds within it. But that's it, Nightopia has evidence to be Universe sized and not any of the dream worlds within it. That's like saying every building in New York City is the size of New York individually to call them universes. However, the individual Dreams were accepted as being 3-B sized individually due to containing at least one visible galaxy in one or a nebula in the other. And Actually, possibly 2-B was only reluctantly accepted. But I can easily remove that if this goes through; which I doubt it will. There are several dreams there were merely described as a forest, or a museum, or simply a city. So Night Dimension also has stuff that could be interpreted as way less than Cosmic sized. However, I actually accepted them being 3-B sized individually and the totality of it all being a Universe. But, I could downgrade that further if only a few Dreams are 4-A to 3-B minimum sized structure. But I'm not going to do that because them being parallel still makes sense, even if they aren't parallel universes.

Dream Depot on the other hand is totally different. The other two would have been 2-B if at least something like Fire Bird or Bellbridge has evidence to be universe sized individually. But none of them do. Only the entirety of Maginary World and Night Dimension respectively have Universe size statements. Dream Depot has Future Dream; if Future Dream never existed with Dream Depot being the thing with the Universal statement. It would have been only Low 2-C. However, the fact is; Future Dream alone is Universe sized, and it's treated as being both comparable in size to other Dreams in the Depot while also being a spec compared to the Depot. And the fact that at least one of them is Universe sized gives even more reason to suggest that the individual worlds that are literally born the same way/method and right next to it are parallel to each other. Once again, as seen in the video on the very first paragraph. Keep in mind that it clearly states that all Dreams are part of the Dream Depot; this includes Sub Con, Subspace, and worlds from Dream Team. So they're all parallel too. And given that new Dream Worlds are literally born every single day, the size is easily 2-B structured and massive degrees of it.

Also, Saikou already said it best from the very beginning that everything here that everything literally comes from knit picking every word in the book. It's almost like saying only Universe 7 is Universe sized and that Universes 1 and 12 are the only parallel universes in Dragon Ball Super. Which is obviously not the case; all of them are equal in size and each have their parallel universe. Which ultimately means their all parallel. And the overwhelming majority agrees with him from the very beginning.

In conclusion, I hope this is the last time I can post. But I still strongly believe we shall continue to make the Dream Depot 2-B no matter what. DatOneWeeb and I are creating our own cosmology blog that we will post at one point. But we are definitely not downgrading anything here. I respectfully disagree with the OP and that no downgrades are happening at all.

Side Note: Going to point out what are and aren't Universes. I don't believe any of the painting worlds from Mario 64 are Universes, just 4-A sized pocket realities due to lacking statements or consistency. I also don't think the Pop Up Book World from Yoshi's Story is a multiverse or Universe, but 6 4-A sized pocket realities. And I don't think the 6 worlds from Super Mario Galaxy 2 are Universes, just different chapters within the Universe. Though traveling through time and space does raise some questions. I do however know the dimensions from Super Paper Mario as well as parallel Universes in both SMRPG and the other Paper Mario games are Universes. As well as all Dream Worlds.

Dino can also read the final post and any other counter arguments to see who he agrees with more.
 
Why bring up Sonic or NiGHTS when it's completely unnecessary to the discussion? Nobody was drawing comparisons within this thread.

I sincerely hope you drop the Maginaryworld topic because that "Staff thread" still needs to be made (as if I'd forget) and some stuff you said is just wrong.
 
I only hoped to bring it up as a one time thing because I was addressing the context. I do hate the comparisons but if push comes to shove and it's a last resort, so be it.

Also, you have to disagree with the OP if you ever want your 2-B Maginary World
 
I get that, but you yourself said you hated comparisons drawn between then. I was just curious as to why you used it now.

Bribing me now, eh? Also this is a false equivalency since they all have celestial bodies in their dreams in MW
 
So do we need to do anything here, or should we close this?
 
We can ask Dino Ranger Black one last time to see if he thinks I covered everything.
 
"After scrolling up above, I noticed this very scan provided 100% proves all the Dream Worlds in the Dream Depot are indeed parallel. Quite literally each and every bubble you see on display is a Dream World. It's very similar to the Universe Bubbles shown in Dragon Ball Super. So two statements are true; the Future Dream is clearly a Universe given the multiple statements addressed both in the OP and multiple times throughout the thread, and it's a spec compared to the totality of the Dream Depot, and it's comparable if not equal in size to all those other dreams. So by conclusion, a Universe is still a spec compared to the Dream Depot and is 2-B as a result. And before you say "The Bubble only shows Mario driving a ship" that's a visual fallacy. In DBS, outside the bubbles appear to show one galaxy for each Universe. But inside them, they're clearly entire Universes."
>That's just an aesthetic choice which isn't much proof of anything, let alone all the dreams all being the same size within if we can't see fully and visually compare the entire dream world or have a statement of each and every one being the same size, which even if you were to bring up a character or guidebook statement that you and Weeb have stated without any citation like i had been asking about "dreams are literal alternate realities", this has already been contradicted multiple times here given some dream world inside being called "small" and differentiated in what they embody being small scale of representation and confined to clearly not universe sized nothing proving beyond given how pocket dimensions work in fiction. We only see inward to the dream and its agreed they are bigger on the inside, which makes the comparison between bubbles fall flat. You are suggesting the dream worlds are all the same size with the outward size of each bubble being a couple meters wide via that bubble representation which doesn't fly for an entire size comparison between two entire dream worlds when its an outside of the bubble comparison. The bubbles themselves don't represent their full size at all since it'd be just an opening entrance to the dream world iteself too and a way to look into the dream and see limited settings and not the whole thing. Dragon Ball Super is also a bad analogy when each of the bubbles is directly called a universe in their title, so it's pretty flipping blatant.

"The first paragraph alone should be all you need to confirm the 2-B ratings, but obviously you want more. Now back to the main point, DatOneWeeb is not using Ad Nauseam, he's using common sense. The World expanding literally just refers to the level or the land they can travel expanding. The Back Ground already existed before the bridge was created. This is the same thing people assuming the Earth grows bigger when all they did was discover new land masses or formed bridges to new locations. It has nothing to do with the spatial dimension expanding."


>They're literally referring to it as the dream world itself expanding. They aren't saying the land is what's being expanded. So if you interpret this as land being added, then the dream world is just as big as a piece of land, further backed up by it being stated to be small. Also, since you also call the dream world itself is as a spatial dimension that is what would be expanded by since it says the dream world not the land.

"Also, to elaborate on what DatOneWeeb has been saying and you keep ignoring.This happens in some of the same Dream Worlds you keep claiming have no starry skies, but in the same video where Luigi jumps, we clearly see the starry sky. So this permanently debunks the whole "The Dream World is only the size of a football field" assumption. Also, you randomly brought up the Painting world from Mario 64; actually, we're in the process of upgrading those painting worlds to 4-A structure which will in turn effect Base Mario. But that's off topic."


>Going back to what I said right above, if anything this just means there are some dreams that share the same sky. The ones I brought up are small and we don't get said justification of Luigi jumping in those actual dreams to show us more inside of it, hence context points to it being small as it is guidebook stated and character described to us. I didnt bring it up randomly, Datweeb stated that worlds = universe in some contexts for the Mario verse, the painting worlds themselves are a sub structure of multiple dimensions in Mario's verse that is not assumed to each be the size of a universe via being called worlds / one is called another world, and they fall into the same trap and association fallacy of assuming just cause its called a world and the word "world" has sometimes referred to a universe that they need to be the same meaning each time when it doesnt need to abide by that at all. Even if they get upgraded to 4-A size its a far cry from being the size of a universe for the painting worlds visuals/stated to be holding stars, and the word world clearly doesn't need to refer to a universe sized structure given that scenerio already occuring.

"Also, I have the need to bring up Subcon and Subspace from Super Mario Bros 2 again. We already know that they're parallel to each other given the mirror statements as well as having starry sky backgrounds, but given that at least two dream worlds within the Dream Depot are parallel to each other and we have at least one dream world withing the Dream Depot having more than enough evidence to be considered an entire Universe. Subcon/Subspace in combination to Future Dream being a Universe is still consistent to Nolrem's statement about there "Being a front and back to every dimension" meaning all worlds have their parallel mirror worlds. Which would also include Future Dream. A Mirror Future Dream would also have to be both a Universe and a Dream World at the same time if it was truly a mirror. It's best to just confirm they're all the same size. Otherwise, the ending credits would have just portrayed Future Dream as being a bubble far bigger than every other bubble put together. But it doesn't, they're all the same sized bubbles as seen in the video linked in the first paragraph. Each and every dream world is like a bubble that exists side by side and are comparable in size. Therefore, they're all parallel universes."

>Again, the credits scene is just an aesthetic choice. Plus, Subcon and Subspace being a mostly alternate look alike dimensions of each other would only apply to them, since it's acknowledged that the dreams are of different sizes with only Future Dream being confirmed to be a universe via name; those two are at best 4-A given their statements. If you had scrolled up you would've saw I addressed Nolrem's statement that you brought up, but let's rehash this. Even if each dimension in Mario's entire multiverse had alternate parallel dark copies, it would just mean alternate parallel dark copies for those small dreams worlds / small dimensions. The "bubble" size on its outward appearance doesnt need to work by any rules that state that it needs to appear bigger to show its bigger than another dream just by your speculation and supposed headcanon, we already have statements about the dream sizes significance varying inside them. Also, the bubble size isn't an actual representation of the size inside or an actual comparison, since the bubble opening is visibly smaller than a few meters wide compared to character heights and what it shows within for the game board as a diameter of maybe tens of meters . The bubble size literally is not consistent to use there as a profound proof that all dreams are the same size.

"Again, assuming scopes, visuals, exploration ability, or themes equates to size is also extremely fallacious and we'd be downplaying a bunch of pocket reality/Multiverse creators by that very logic. They're frequently used simply to describe the attraction or battlefield and not the rest of the world whenever is describing the area. Some statements tend to contradict themselves from time to time and they usually use "Small" statements just to make the players easy to understand the navigation through the game rather than referring to cosmology/lore. It's about as accurate as characters stating "Press the B Button to attack" among other things and assuming Mario literally has to press a B button to attack rather than referring to the player."

>If there is a lack of context regarding the size of a pocket dimension, we go by what's shown in it to determine its size. They're also referring to the dream world and dream itself as being small in the guide and Dreambert, you have no basis to claim that it's just referring to a specific part of it.

"Also, I know what's what everyone's mind regarding this. As @Mephistus was the one who admitted he was going to make this thread on a certain other thread regarding seemingly similar structured cosmology that uses different context. Now, between Dream Depot, Maginary World, and Night Dimension/Nightopia, they're all described as worlds containing numerous worlds as well as and all consist of many worlds made from someone's dream. But the difference here is context. And all the individual Dream Worlds while massive individually, are mere specs compared to the full cosmology. Yes, they all contain many worlds that are each legit different bodies of space, but when it comes to calling them Pocket Realities Vs Universes; or better yet calling the cosmologies Universes Vs Multiverses, there is a conditional branch for each. That conditional Branch is this, if the entire Cosmology is the same size as the Universe, then the totality is Universal while each sub dimension is less than that. But if one of the sub dimensions is a Universe, then they're all Universes while the totality is a Multiverse. Regarding the Dreams becoming entire worlds, this is how it works. If at least one of them contains a planet, they should at be at least planet sized individually. If at least one contains a sun, they should all be High 4-C sized at bare minimum individually. And if at least one contains a starry sky, they should all be 4-A sized at bare minimum individually. And if at least one contains galaxies, they should all be 3-B sized at bare minimum individually. But the real concern is if at least one of the sub-dimensions/dreams is Universe sized, then they're all universes. Unless otherwise stated or if one or more is treated as something that dwarfs all the others in significance or size."
>I'm just gonna completely ignore most of the Maginaryworld and Night Dimension comparisons because they are irrelevant here and should be saved for their own revision threads in the future and its grasping at a false equivalency because they have many other different explainations that hadn't been addressed that can give higher ratings if not at least 2-B. I wholly disagree with your current assessment of these two comparisons though, I'll leave it at that.

The Dream Depot itself holds a universe, yes, but that doesn't allow us to conclude that each and every sub-dimension is the same size just by being a sub-dimension. The title of this thread is exactly that, At least low 2-C because that is the safest assumption since we know the dream depot holds a stated universe. Mario's entire cosmology has individual universes for its sub dimensions, do all the sub dimensions in Mario's verse have to be universes? Obviously not! His entire cosmology holds at least one 4-A dimension as you've agreed with the painting worlds example and and we can't blindly assume sizes without a proper justification like for any series. Like with the dream depot, the other painting worlds themselves in Super Mario 64 do actually need to be stated to be parallel or copies of the ones that have stars in them, otherwise, those worlds are literally only as big as the size of what we know they hold in them and can be considered small given lack of proof. The entire arguement case that is for 2-B dream depot is an association fallacy because even if they are created by the same person (they aren't), you need proof of equalism for all the sub dimensions regardless if each one isn't noted about significance, regardless that size is blatently given to us as variable via the statements I have brung up; just because the dream worlds are a sub dimensions of the Dream Depot, doesn't mean that they need to be exact copies of Future Dream. Being a sub dimension isn't a good enough justification.

"Dream Depot on the other hand is totally different. The other two would have been 2-B if at least something like Fire Bird or Bellbridge has evidence to be universe sized individually. But none of them do. Only the entirety of Maginary World and Night Dimension respectively have Universe size statements. Dream Depot has Future Dream; if Future Dream never existed with Dream Depot being the thing with the Universal statement. It would have been only Low 2-C. However, the fact is; Future Dream alone is Universe sized, and it's treated as being both comparable in size to other Dreams in the Depot while also being a spec compared to the Depot. And the fact that at least one of them is Universe sized gives even more reason to suggest that the individual worlds that are literally born the same way/method and right next to it are parallel to each other. Once again, as seen in the video on the very first paragraph. Keep in mind that it clearly states that all Dreams are part of the Dream Depot; this includes Sub Con, Subspace, and worlds from Dream Team. So they're all parallel too. And given that new Dream Worlds are literally born every single day, the size is easily 2-B structured and massive degrees of it."
>Ignoring that the two constructs you refer to do have evidence and that it will be saved for a future thread that will have no bearing on the outcome here because of entirely different circumstances and contexts that those series hold, the individual dimensions making up the Dream Depot don't have comparable statements to group every last one of them as the same size. The spec itself is bigger on the inside, as plainly seen by when the characters fly into the dreams and are in front of it. The spec itself is a very narrow size, and if we judged by the spatial size on the outside size of bubbles in the dream depot it wouldn't come out to very much at all in diameter when they are lined up given visuals for the credits beyond the size of a country, I assure you on that. The dreams themselves are given a differentiated nature of what they are wholly based on, some have a size stated to be smaller than others and shown to be, and the actual dreamers that dream them up with different intelligence levels and aspirations of what their dreams will hold in Mario. Some dreams are people in mario that are self stating to be dreaming wholly about miniscule objects, like a couple of finite Rubees he was handed by a character asking about him dreaming of them, crystal gems that are roughly the size of Mario, according to this quote from Super Paper Mario:

__

Want your Rubees, do you,
little flea?

Well, fine. For your utterly
average work, here's a
average sum of Rubees.

Unh! Now THAT'S what I call
a day's work! Feel it!

You must love those Rubees...
Do you dream about them?
Do you snuggle with them?

Hey, it's none of my business!
For a great day of work,
a great pile of Rubees!

___

Yeah...Mario dreaming of a pile amount of rubees that the guy handed to him. Just like dreaming about the finite ocean that their planet has, this l lend to each and every dream not being a universe in size and entirely embodying small finite, mundane stuff limited in size. Not like all dream worlds need to abide by the assumed fan rules perpetrated here look even exactly alike given what we see in particular dreams varying wildly in scope and what they embody, nor even have to be dreamt up by a single dreamer to make one singular dream, nor hold an entire universe. Even if we account for dimensions being born constantly, which going by the smallest dream that'd not be much, using an assumed size for each dream would not be conclusive for any assumption since the dreams we don't know about can be evidently as variable in size to being just a couple meters in length and not already known to be created as universe sized and dreamed into existence.

"Also, Saikou already said it best from the very beginning that everything here that everything literally comes from knit picking every word in the book. It's almost like saying only Universe 7 is Universe sized and that Universes 1 and 12 are the only parallel universes in Dragon Ball Super. Which is obviously not the case; all of them are equal in size and each have their parallel universe. Which ultimately means their all parallel."
>Its not nitpicking when the context doesn't add up for many examples to draw exact parallels conclusively with the entire group of sub dimensions. Dragon Ball Super has actual statements of the universes in question being called a universe in the same respect as Universe 7, so that comparison doesnt really hold water either way. If the other universes in Dragon Ball Super had been named just worlds and no parallelism was given outside of Universe 7 and 6, the rest of the worlds wouldn't be assumed to have all been parallel with the first two.

"In conclusion, I hope this is the last time I can post. But I still strongly believe we shall continue to make the Dream Depot 2-B no matter what. DatOneWeeb and I are creating our own cosmology blog that we will post at one point. But we are definitely not downgrading anything here. I respectfully disagree with the OP and that no downgrades are happening at all."
>A downgrade is in order given the evidence presented. Sorry, that is how it works. The other two series you mentioned have the same issues brought up that they will get their own cosmology blogs and further evaluation on their evidences when something new is brought to the table. Given the prior posts here by yourself at least to frame me as a troll and some others here, the disagreeing has been not very respectful, to be blunt and it really comes off as an appeal to motive and a last resort to stonewall the objections I've made.

"Side Note: Going to point out what are and aren't Universes. I don't believe any of the painting worlds from Mario 64 are Universes, just 4-A sized pocket realities due to lacking statements or consistency. I also don't think the Pop Up Book World from Yoshi's Story is a multiverse or Universe, but 6 4-A sized pocket realities. And I don't think the 6 worlds from Super Mario Galaxy 2 are Universes, just different chapters within the Universe. Though traveling through time and space does raise some questions. I do however know the dimensions from Super Paper Mario as well as parallel Universes in both SMRPG and the other Paper Mario games are Universes. As well as all Dream Worlds."
>I pretty much leave off as my final word that the dream worlds, for some, are provably not the size of universes, they have literally the only evidence of being the less than the size of a football field, like how we treat pocket dimensions without given context. Like in the cases of the painting worlds and the pop up book dimension, a lot of the dream worlds lack needed contexts to group them together with being the same size as Future Dream and it being relative to the same size as Mario's home universe just because the painting worlds and pop up book are other sub-dimensions sharing in a greater cosmology, it doesn't imply anything by sharing association or name.
 
Saikou The Lewd King said:
Both of your arguments sounds like you're just nitpicking the wording to death.

First one doesn't have to mean that Bowser cram multiple dreams in one dream world. It could as easily means that he's making it so that this dream world only contains what he dreams. It doesn't have to imply that many separate dreams would be in this one world.

Second one is even worse. "Dreaming big" is a common expression that has nothing to do with the actual physical size of your dreams. Even in the context presented above, nothing states that this is about actual literal size. You're just taking this expression way too literally.

Your final argument...isn't really an argument. We only see one part of the dream, it doesn't mean that it's literally all there is to them. It doesn't contradict them being universal in size.
Click to expand...
Thats what @Saikou said
 
Mephistus already explained why he isn't nitpicking. Don't clog up the CRT with pointless comments if you have nothing productive to add to the conversation
 
Saikou's disagreement is 100% irrelevant if he's offered no rebuttal to what Merlight has said in response to his claims. To say otherwise is to ignore how debating works.
 
NotAMarioFan(lol) said:
That makes no sense
Click to expand...
Then lemme put it this way. You're a lawyer and try to convict me of murder. You then leave the courthouse and don't listen to ehat the opposition has to say. You don't have the counter against your evidence yet you still try and convict me for murder using the same points and not disputing what the defense said.

Does it make sense now? Saikou's name means nothing if his arguments were disputed.
 
Except his arguments weren't disputed. None of what Mephistus said actually countered the points.

Your example doesn't work at all because regardless of his defense. it doesn't mean anybody will agree with the defense and disagree with Saikou's original points.

Which I share, because this is just nitpicking the wording to death.
 
A staff member has agreed on the downgrade with the arguements laid out fully and there are reg members here that agree with the downgrade even after the points have all been laid out, even further points that I brought up past the threads OP; to say the pro 2-b arguements aren't disputed is flat out wrong.

Frankly, the pro 2-B are all unfounded and proofless speculation from what has been discussed here and a downgrade needs to happen. If you want a quick end to this thread then maybe post a pro arguement or stop wasting time going over what was already debunked and countered.

There isn't nitpicking going on if the positive claims don't meet any sembalance of site standards of evidence and you have to resort to one word strawmanning my entire arguement as nitpicking then that falls flat as the rampant speculation here to boost a series past what has not been properly supported by evidence in this very thread.

Also, I have alterted other moderators to give their input since DRB doesn't want to further. There is no reason to close this thread prematurely anyway and that comes off as desperate and not striving for accuracy.
 
Because thwre was nothing to dispute. It was just "This is nitpicking", and Mephistus was basically like "No, and here's why." He went much farther into detail within the thread than the original post that Saikou was referring to. So yes, Saikou saying it was nitpicking doesn't matter if there was greater elaboration after that claim.

Then ignore the example. You know what I'm trying to say (I hope lol)

Again, it's more than just what one word means. The dreams have shown to be different sizes, which has yet to be disputed except for this horrid "poison the well" situation and arguments that lack sense.
 
And him going no, here is why, is completely meaningless if the arguments he brings up for why it's not nitpicking aren't seen as relevant or actually addressing the issue. Issuing a counter or a reply does not, by it's intent, instantly mean that the reasoning given has been debunked or shown as incorrect. No amount of detail matters to this simple fact, you aren't automatically correct either by using further words and going more into detail about something, the specifics of what you said is what matters. If it matters so much to you saying that what Sakyou said has no meaning, bring up what part of the logic make it so, instead of simply wording it "he countered, therefore is debunked and hollow". That's... jesus christ how does that make a lick of sense? That's absurd, not even in a funny way.

And Shake, I would hope you have even attempted reading this thread at all if you are saying any of this, because both Medeus, Dino, King, DatOneWeeb, and Omni (even if he talked for someone else) have been counter arguing, the vast majority of it utterly unrelated to the poisoning of the wheel. The crux of an argument relying on common sayings like dreaming big, or speaking of dreams in a plural sense, the first an expression and the other no different from calling pants plural despite there only being one pant, being called nitpicking words makes a whole lot of sense from where I stand. I have yet to see anything indicating in literally anyway the dreams vary in size beyond "its never said dreams are all universal", which is just another assumption like any of the others.
 
@Lsir Because you've totally brought up yourself why the reasoning I gave in that same reply and further replies is wrong to begin with yourself other than needlessly replying yourself about "this is wrong, this wasn't refuted".

The dimensions themselves need firm proof they each are entirely the same size and scope, regardless of what I have posted of negitive proof. End of story, or this downgrade will be going through.

The burden of proof is on that sole positive claim that they are the same size, which so far is utterly baseless assumption that no pocket dimensions for other series recieves on this site nor for this own series regarding the painting world realms in Super Mario 64 being a perfect parallel example based on their individual contents for each individual pocket realm being what each one is size wise since they aren't given any relation as all the painting worlds being equally sized. Some painting worlds hold multiple stars in their sky, some painting worlds are literally just accepted as big as we visually see and roughly city block sized.

The interpretation that you can fill a universe sized dream in the Dream Depot with multiple dreams is literally as valid as what's just plainly stated by Bowser, which kills any notion the dreams dreamt up in any scenario need to be universe sized since the plurality is a grade school level concept that apparently is lost on you. The plural meaning needed to not be used there in order to not be contradicting that one dream is equal to one dream to conclude all dreams are the same size. The plural form doesn't even fit the bill here with "pants", because anyone who relates the plural form for dreams means they are relating to more than "one" dream. Even if you want to throw that up to being interpreted as some allegorical statement, why then even treat dreams as plain universes when they can be just mere allegories and aspirations? Becuase then that just literally gives zero size to any presumed dreams that would be created everytime a character sleeps as dreams being just mere allegories and aspirations instead of literal dream world sized universes. You can't have it both ways.

I've shown further evidence that some dream worlds themselves are outright stated to be "small", and therefore some vary as smaller, by characters and the guide alike really shows your attempt at reading this thread given your little response not touching on that extremely blatent evidence of varying size. Also, 1 singular dream is stated to be the sole size of a frickin pile of a couple of rubees by a character and another just holds their planet's ocean according to another character, clearly being not the size of a universe or given info to conclude that. A single dream even being dreamed up by 1 individual isn't even supported given 4-A Subcon/subspace was dreamt up by 4 individuals. This is really all I have to say regarding your input here, seeing as how you aren't even caught up on the thread and I basically need to just repeat again what many have agreed already upon as being valid reasons for a downgrade. I'll wait for moderators to choose their sides on this since its clear non arguements are just getting posted by certain members and attempting to discredit arguements without even touching on them.
 
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