Dota 2 Discussion Thread

[JohnHendrix212]

That reminds me, we also need to update the DotA 2 page. We should separate the heroes by their Ancient alignment and their attributes. And also create a brief summary of the strength and speed of the verse. Although this could wait until the revisions.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

I tried using pictures with backgrounds but they don't look good to me. Plus the official twitter of Studio MIR released turnaround photos of the dragons which make great renders for the profiles

Eh, I'm fine with only shitty pictures. Regardless, it's up to you.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

That reminds me, we also need to update the DotA 2 page. We should separate the heroes by their Ancient alignment and their attributes. And also create a brief summary of the strength and speed of the verse. Although this could wait until the revisions.

Not just that, but we need to rename it. DotA is the name for the Warcraft 3 mod and the version made by Valve is referred to them as Dota 2 or DOTA 2. Also we don't really know their Ancient alignment anymore after Valve updated the old hero selection screen in the game and their website.

Eh, I'm fine with only shitty pictures. Regardless, it's up to you.

PNG render supremacy it is then.

 

[TrueBK98]

Do we have evidence of this? As silly as this sounds, I think the Elder Titan was the one who caused the Primordial Mind to splinter during the Schism. 2-A characters destroying a stronger 2-A character isn't really that far-fetched if we think about.

I think it goes like this:



I initially think that the fracturing of the Primordial Mind happened before the schism, but this timeline of events make sense as well.

The official video made for people to get into the dota universe before watching Dota Dragon’s Blood stated that The Primordial Mind broke itself.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

The official video made for people to get into the dota universe before watching Dota Dragon’s Blood stated that The Primordial Mind broke itself.

Are you referring to one of the videos with Slacks, or the intro in episode one by Oracle?

But yeah, Oracle made no mention of Elder Titan breaking the Primordial Mind, so I'm pretty much wrong regardless.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Not just that, but we need to rename it. DotA is the name for the Warcraft 3 mod and the version made by Valve is referred to them as Dota 2 or DOTA 2. Also we don't really know their Ancient alignment anymore after Valve updated the old hero selection screen in the game and their website.

True. And no worries. I've played Dota 2 enough to know their alignment as well as their main attributes. This won't be much of a problem.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

True. And no worries. I've played Dota 2 enough to know their alignment as well as their main attributes. This won't be much of a problem.

Can you tell me the alignments of the heroes starting with Mars and Grimstroke? I haven't played Dota in a while.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Can you tell me the alignments of the heroes starting with Mars and Grimstroke? I haven't played Dota in a while.

Both are Dire

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

How about Snapfire, Void Spirit, Hoodwink, and Dawnbreaker?

 

[JohnHendrix212]

How about Snapfire, Void Spirit, Hoodwink, and Dawnbreaker?

All Radiant

They all released after patch 7.00, but we can already gather as much. Same with Grimstroke and Mars.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

According to the Dota 2 wiki, Mars is a Radiant hero. Any counterarguments?

 

[JohnHendrix212]

According to the Dota 2 wiki, Mars is a Radiant hero. Any counterarguments?

Then I'm probably mistaken. Mars is one of those heroes that fit moreso in Dire than in Radiant, but it is what it is.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

So, apparently existing before time doesn't grant a character Immeasurable speed according to a few users.

If this is the case, the Fundamentals would just be Omnipresent, and the fragments of the PM would be At least MFTL+ since their fight spanned across all of creation.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Nigh-Omnipresence would suit them more. They don't literally exist everywhere but rather exist in all planes at once. Io is probably the closest one to have real omnipresence but its still nigh omni since he only exists as the charge that binds all of existence, meaning that Io exists between every particle in the universe.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

True. I guess their speed would largely be the same then.

Should the "Likely MFTL+" stay, or should we remove the "likely" part? I don't think the "Likely" is necessary, as Chaos Knight moves from universe to universe to destroy the Light. He should move at least that much definitively, all the other Fundamentals are the same.

Should just be Massively FTL+, otherwise Nigh-Omnipresent. Io would be Omnipresent, as he is currently.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Somebody edited in the likely rating when the profile's reasoning Infinite speed was outdated so we won't use that. I don't know where the MFTL ratings come from in the first place though.

Also Io is Nigh-Omnipresent like I said. No omnipresence since that would not make sense with its lore anyway.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Somebody edited in the likely rating when the profile's reasoning Infinite speed was outdated so we won't use that. I don't know where the MFTL ratings come from in the first place though.

Also Io is Nigh-Omnipresent like I said. No omnipresence since that would not make sense with its lore anyway.

I think the MFTL ratings are reasonable enough, with the justification I gave above. We should just remove the Likely part.

Io is said in lore to be everywhere and in all things at any moment. As well as occupying all of the planes. That should be enough to be Omnipresent.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Elder Titan: At least Massively FTL+ (Should be far superior than the Four Fundamental Forces, which he created during the Schism), otherwise Nigh-Omnipresent (He exists in all Planes of Existence at once, unbound by the scope and limitations of the physical realm)

Chaos Knight: Massively FTL+ (Journeys through universes in search of the Light), otherwise Nigh-Omnipresent (The Fundamentals exist in all Planes of Existence at once, unbound by the scope and limitations of the physical realm)

Keeper of the Light: Massively FTL+ (Comparable to the Chaos Knight), otherwise Nigh-Omnipresent (The Fundamentals exist in all Planes of Existence at once, unbound by the scope and limitations of the physical realm)

Enigma: Massively FTL+ (Comparable to the other Fundamentals), otherwise Nigh-Omnipresent ( The Fundamentals exist in all Planes of Existence at once, unbound by the scope and limitations of the physical realm)

Io: Massively FTL+ (Comparable to the other Fundamentals), otherwise Omnipresent ( Io exists everywhere, and in all things as the sentient manifestation of the charge that binds everything together. The Fundamentals exist in all Planes of Existence at once, unbound by the scope and limitations of the physical realm)

Arc Warden: At least Massively FTL+ (Kept up and overwhelmed Radiant and Dire, whose battle spanned all of creation)

Probably like this.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Just a correction for Io, the "any moment" part refers to his physical presence (aka the ball of light that we see), not his true omnipresent form. Just remove the "at any moment" and we're good.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Wait a second... Isn't the Elder Titan granted Immeasurable speed by default for creating Claszureme, a realm that exist outside of time (Therefore, he should be beyond it)? And by extension, the Fundamentals would also be granted such speed for existing in all of the planes, which obviously accounts for Claszureme.

Yeah, Elder Titan and the Fundamentals goes back to being Immeasurable. The fragments of the Primordial Mind Remain At least MFTL+

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Proof that Elder Titan made Claszureme? Let's not get too ahead of ourselves with vague powerscaling.

Also I updated my sandbox with several Eldwurm profiles besides Uldorak. They include Aethrak, Byssrak, Lirrak, and Vahdrak since they have feats or at least they scale to the lesser dragons that they reincarnate in.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Proof that Elder Titan made Claszureme? Let's not get too ahead of ourselves with vague powerscaling.

Claszureme is literally one of the realms within Terrene Plain, and is definitely part of the Seven Planes of Existence.

Also I updated my sandbox with several Eldwurm profiles besides Uldorak. They include Aethrak, Byssrak, Lirrak, and Vahdrak since they have feats or at least they scale to the lesser dragons that they reincarnate in.

Alright, I'll check it out. Thanks for the hard work.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

I assume the Eldwurms would be 2-A, probably something like this:

2-A (The 8 Eldwurm souls are the pillars that support all of creation. Should be comparable to the Fundamentals)

At least for their true form. I'll leave their physical form feats to you.

 

[TrueBK98]

While the Elder Titan didn’t craft Claszureme the way it is, the god tier beings still scale to Faceless Void. While normally, predates time doesn’t mean Immeasurable, but this time it’s literally means beyond time. They have repeatedly said that time and space have no consequence to them or time-space is tedious, meaningless. Void Spirit exists far beyond the scope a a single point in time-space. Not every dimensions have time and these universal forces encompassed those realms.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

I'm not writing the stats yet until Book 2 because I don't want to edit it multiple times. I'd rather do it all at once. Only Eldwurms missing are Indrak and Orrak since we don't know what kind of powers they have. I'm quite skeptical on using Kaden's example of using ionic dragon bones as electric weapons but hopefully we can see other kinds of dragons. Plus Orrak maybe the dragon equivalent of KotL but I don't want to put light manipulation right away on her profile because I feel like they can do more than use light powers.

 

[TrueBK98]

Claszureme is literally one of the realms within Terrene Plain, and is definitely part of the Seven Planes of Existence.

It seems to be on another plane, rather than Terrene Plane.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

It seems to be on another plane, rather than Terrene Plane.

According to the lore connected to Faceless Void, it is its own dimension. He can access it by making a rift in spacetime that leads to Claszureme and said rift will make a bubble where time does not flow.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

It seems to be on another plane, rather than Terrene Plane.

Likely so. There's not much to be fetched linking the realm to Terrene Plane, nor does any information on it relating to the Seven Planes. But since the entire verse itself is the Seven Planes, wouldn't it only be logical to assume Claszureme is part of it. In which case, Elder Titan is still responsible for its creation.

While the Elder Titan didn’t craft Claszureme the way it is

Elder Titan made the realm in a region outside of time, regardless of who made Claszureme the way it is currently.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

According to the lore connected to Faceless Void, it is its own dimension. He can access it by making a rift in spacetime that leads to Claszureme and said rift will make a bubble where time does not flow.

This is a bit irrelevant though? The entire cosmology is the Seven Planes. It wouldn't make much sense for it to be entirely separate from it. "Another dimension" simply means a dimension outside of the physical one.

 

[TrueBK98]

Likely so. There's not much to be fetched linking the realm to Terrene Plane, nor does any information on it relating to the Seven Planes. But since the entire verse itself is the Seven Planes, wouldn't it only be logical to assume Claszureme is part of it. In which case, Elder Titan is still responsible for its creation.

Elder Titan made the realm in a region outside of time, regardless of who made Claszureme the way it is currently.

I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying that ET didn't really intent for Claszureme to be whatever it is now because it's a result of an infinitely bigger thing broke off. It still part of the Seven Planes, as everything except the Void is, and ET still responsible for its creation.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

I'm not disagreeing. I'm just saying that ET didn't really intent for Claszureme to be whatever it is now because it's a result of an infinitely bigger thing broke off. It still part of the Seven Planes, as everything except the Void is, and ET still responsible for its creation.

True.

You said you rate the Spirits as 2-A, right? What's your justification for that? Do you think they have any relations to the Elemental Eldwurms?Anyway, Monkey King should scale to them for fighting all of them.

 

[TrueBK98]

True.

You said you rate the Spirits as 2-A, right? What's your justification for that? Do you think they have any relations to the Elemental Eldwurms?Anyway, Monkey King should scale to them for fighting all of them.

They are the same as the Fundamentals to the souls of the Eldwurms. Monkey King scales to their physical form.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

They are the same as the Fundamentals to the souls of the Eldwurms.

So basically, 2-A (The celestials are manifestations of the elements that support all of creation). Something like this?

Monkey King scales to their physical form.

Oh, right. He only fought their physical forms...

 

[TrueBK98]

Yes.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

This will be the intro for the future CRT. If you find any mistakes, please tell me. Your suggestions would also be useful.

--------

The Lore of the DotA 2 universe is a bit hard to definitively crack down due to it being mostly limited to interactions and lore text. But should be relatively easier to understand once you read some of the Hero lores.

To get a better grasp of the lore, we examine the Hero profiles of heroes such as Zet, the Arc Warden, The Elder Titan, and the Four Fundamental Forces.

Below is the summary of events:

To start of, in the beginning, before the creation of the multiverse, there was a being of great power known only as the Primordial Mind. This great being created a universe. This universe is in complete Fundamental harmony and unity. The creation of this universe forced the Primordial Mind to fragment, born from it the fragments known as Radiant and Dire. Radiant and Dire started fighting, and was only stopped when a third fragment willed itself into existence, stomping both Radiant and Dire. Along with the creation of this universe comes the creation of a race of beings known as the Titans, meant to be architects of creation. On his desire to hone his skills, the Elder Titan did a mistake, breaking the universe the Primordial Mind had created. During this event, the Elder Titan created the Seven Planes of existence and broke the harmony of the original universe, accidentally creating the Fundamental forces. One of the planes which the Elder Titan created is the Terrene Plane, which contains the universe in which the events of the game (and anime) takes place in.

Important things to note:

-The Primordial Mind did not create the Seven Planes, as there's no mention of any such event. Only that the Primordial Mind created the original, greater universe from which the Seven Planes sprang from.

-The Elder Titan did not create the universe mentioned in both his and Arc Warden's lore. As the Titans were only said to be actual witnesses to its creation, and are said to be stamped with the energies of the universe. Elder Titan, however, created the current universe.

-The Elder Titan created the Seven Planes during an event known as the Schism, when he broke the old universe. This event is hinted in Void Spirit's lore line: "Still without comprehensible form or voice of my own, I felt this titan's hammer fall and the four children scatter. I began to find myself in the reverberations of the blow. And I saw the expanse of time flash forth from the instant."

-It's explicitly hinted that time only came into existence when Elder Titan created the planes. Which means that the original universe likely lacked the concept of time.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Looks good, but be prepared to add new info from Book 2 when it comes out. Then we can probably release this.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

So... I had my sandbox evaluated by DarkDragonMedeus to see if my justifications are fine. Here's what he said:

"After reading through it, the Attack Potency stuff is fine, but "Existing outside of time" or being able to enter a realm "Outside of time" doesn't quite reach Immeasurable speed, it's just a good range dimensional travel. There needs to be proof that they can casually move around and fight through time, or physically move as if at least one temporal dimension acts as a spatial dimension for them for it to be considered Immeasurable. Or having reactions described as faster than instantaneous."

So for now, it seems we'll have to settle for MFTL+, otherwise Nigh-Omnipresent Fundamentals and Elder Titan. Unless of course, we have proof of what DDM listed above.

 

[Ecstasy_Amphetamine]

Only Faceless Void and Weaver have Immeasurable speed thanks to a combination of their spell descriptions and lore

 

[TrueBK98]

DDD isn't a knowledgeable member for Dota so he's probably didn't know about the nature of Claszureme as a place beyond time, and time beyond counting. I've said before that simply being outside of time or predates it doesn't warrant Immeasurable speed. A character can move in a timeless place doesn't mean he is unbound by linear time. The existence of Claszureme and Faceless Void show that being outside of time in Dota means more than that. These beings are unbound by time and beyond it. Void Spirit even said to exists far beyond the scope of a single point in space and time. They have repeatedly said that time and space are irrelevant to them. You should have use "unbound by time" as you have in this thread.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

DDD isn't a knowledgeable member for Dota so he's probably didn't know about the nature of Claszureme as a place beyond time, and time beyond counting. I've said before that simply being outside of time or predates it doesn't warrant Immeasurable speed. A character can move in a timeless place doesn't mean he is unbound by linear time. The existence of Claszureme and Faceless Void show that being outside of time in Dota means more than that. These beings are unbound by time and beyond it. Void Spirit even said to exists far beyond the scope of a single point in space and time. They have repeatedly said that time and space are irrelevant to them. You should have use "unbound by time" as you have in this thread.

True. My current justifications for them was "exists and occupies realms outside of time." Perhaps, "beyond time" was the correct term given Void's respawn line.

I suppose I should consult DDM again regarding this...