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Dawnbreaker's concept manip comes from her "creating order from the chaos that resides in each fight". Might be a bit vague, but it's definitely not flowery language given the context.
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Wouldn't literally reality warping all of creation to serve/fight for them still count as an AP feat? I don't think this specifically refers to the current war, as Arc Warden's lore had stated that he defeated them long before the planet had flourishing life on it.Isn't the "twisting all of creation" statement referring to how both Ancients manipulate lesser creatures (or the creations) to fight for it in the upcoming war?
I've made a list of feats that can help give some tiers for the lesser characters. If we can get someone to calc them, we can start scaling some characters including Zeus who cratered a city in the Artifact game.The cosmic forces are definitely in 2-A, but we should focus on lower tier characters. They’re the main focus of the series after all.
Feats from the animated series:
AP
*Adult earth dragon displacing rocks when they tunnel into the ground
*Possessed and undead Uldorak making a fissure by slamming his hand
*Slyrak burning the city of Leathsham in a flashback
*Lirrak (the female water eldwurm) making a wall of ice spikes with her breath
*Luna's Lucent Beam attack (doubles as a speed feat due to it coming from the second moon)
*Slyvion making a shockwave upon landing
Speed
*Mirana summoning arrows from the second moon (only scales to her powers during nighttime)
*Air dragon's flight speed
Lifting Strength
*Invoker lifting his tower from the ground (only scales to his telekinesis)
*Slyrak's weight (scales to him and the eldwurms only)
Miscellaneous
*Amount of people Terrorblade mindhaxxed (should be useful in determining his mindhax potency)
That's all I can remember from the top of my head, the rest you can try finding for yourself. Feats from the games are very appreciated too
I think it should be taken at face value, to be honest. I've seen far more questionable statements get accepted in this forum.The statement on its own is really vague if you ask me
We shouldn't use it as the main justification, rather a supporting one. The three pieces of Primordial Mind can just scale to the Elder Titan, the Fundamentals and the dragon souls. Radiant and Dire are the Thought and Action of the Primordial Mind.I think it should be taken at face value, to be honest. I've seen far more questionable statements get accepted in this forum.
Radiant and Dire should get half the value of twisting a "creation" that has seven total 2-A cosmology, while Zet gets the full value for stomping them.
I don't think Elder Titan and the Fundamentals scale to the Shards of the Primordial Mind, but I also think them being merely tier 4 is horribly underselling them. But we need more proof of them being at least Low 2-C, because I personally believe they're at that level by virtue of being Universal constants. Also, I find it hard to believe that they're any weaker than Faceless Void.We shouldn't use it as the main justification, rather a supporting one. The three pieces of Primordial Mind can just scale to the Elder Titan, the Fundamentals and the dragon souls. Radiant and Dire are the Thought and Action of the Primordial Mind.
Considering how Io is basically the universe's electromagnetic force which explains its omnipresence, them being tier 4 characters undersells them alot. He'd be probably higher than tier 3 since he exists in all planesI don't think Elder Titan and the Fundamentals scale to the Shards of the Primordial Mind, but I also think them being merely tier 4 is horribly underselling them. But we need more proof of them being at least Low 2-C, because I personally believe they're at that level by virtue of being Universal constants. Also, I find it hard to believe that they're any weaker than Faceless Void.
Precisely. I think merely scaling them to Io's feat is nonsense.Considering how Io is basically the universe's electromagnetic force which explains its omnipresence, them being tier 4 characters undersells them alot. He'd be probably higher than tier 3 since he exists in all planes
Vanessa only said the Faceless Void has the capacity to destroy a timeline, and no mention of ability used. I think it's more reasonable to assume he destroys timelines with his physical blows alone. And considering his Time Lock ability lore states that his casual blows can shift dimensions, it's probably not that crazy to think so.aceless Void might actually be weaker than them in terms of physicals but not hax. It's implied that he can wipe out an entire timeline with his powers which is actually the whole space time continuum in the context of Dota 2
I think there's more than enough connections to be drawn from the anime to the main game.Before we do any revisions btw, I'd like to see some connection between the anime and the main games. Some of the anime exclusive characters have been name-dropped like Kaden in the mobile game Underlords and DK x Mirana was referenced in the same game as well. However there's still not enough proof to connect the cosmology shown in the anime and the main game.
I think we should prioritize the game's lore. So for now, we should decide whether to treat the anime's events as an entirely separate universe, or that the Dragons are just another representation of the Fundamental forces.It doesn't make sense with the current game lore though. How are the eight dragon souls above the Fundamentals themselves, when one of them is literally the entire universe's force of electromagnetism? In the anime's case, Indrak would be the equivalent of Io. However, the former only represents one half of the force that is Io. I guess it is confusing, but we shouldn't believe it yet since the writer said that it was just his headcanon in the very same thread. Hopefully he could change this before the next season.
The justification should be like this for Dire and Radiant (if we ever decide to give them profiles): 2-A (Twisted all of creation in their battle, which includes the Seven Planes, the Seven Heavens, and the Seven Hells. Each of these planes of existence contains seven realms that fracture into an Infinite number of realities in every moment.) We can insert the clip here.As for the 3 fragments of the Primordial Mind, can you explain to me your reasoning for them being 2-A? I might have evidence against it but I'd like to hear what you say.
That's a great find. Elder Titan being tier 4 is an even bigger nonsense than tier 4 Fundamentals.I guess you're right. Speaking of game lore, Elder Titan has an overlooked feat in his bio. It's said that he was the one who made the Dota universe alongside the 4 Fundamentals in an empty void that did not have the flow of time yet. He accidentally broke the very world he was in the process of creating and split said world into the many planes that we know today. Because of this, he should be Low 2-C or higher if the anime counts. He's not 2-A because his lore specifically said that he made and broke a "world" and not "worlds". I got all this from a combination of ET's and Void Spirit's lore if you're wondering.
I don't see how this affects the 2-A ratings. The 2-A cosmology has already been established, with Oracle creating a 2-A multiverse, and WoG confirming that every game is a canon event that are each in itself are individualistic timelines. Now further supported with Invoker's explanation in Dragon's Blood.I disagree with the 2-A ratings btw. Because according to Void Spirit, he mentions an event called "The Great Confluence" which is stated to be the moment when "the fabrics of multiple realities are fated to collide and the ripples of destruction will touch all planes equally". Seeing how this is a threat to someone like Void Spirit, I don't think the Primordial Mind would be anymore powerful than this catastrophic event unless this is the work of both Ancients.
I'm inclined to say that most of the lower tier characters are around 9-B to 9-A or maybe even Tier 8 which would include the Keen folk, some human characters, characters who are considered mundane, etc. Ursa can shred through Mazzie's house sized mech with his claws and his Earthshock lore states that he can literally shake the earth with his steps, Centaur Warrunner and the strongest of his kind can wrestle and kill the largest Thunderhide Alphas (who are much bigger than the ones you see in the MOBA game), and there are some characters that reach that tier by sheer size such as Treant Protector.I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, and what your problems with it so we can address it quickly. Dota's page in this site desperately needs a revision.
I'm not very familiar with all this cosmic stuff especially when it ventures into multiverse stuff, so please bear with me on this. Every time I hear about tier 2 upgrades, I feel like it's too good to be true and I can recall when entire verses were downgraded because of the lack of evidence for their tier 2 ratings. I'm just trying to play safe here, but if I'm really convinced that 2-A Dota is a thing (besides Oracle) then I'm all for it.That's a great find. Elder Titan being tier 4 is an even bigger nonsense than tier 4 Fundamentals.
I don't see how this affects the 2-A ratings. The 2-A cosmology has already been established, with Oracle creating a 2-A multiverse, and WoG confirming that every game is a canon event that are each in itself are individualistic timelines. Now further supported with Invoker's explanation in Dragon's Blood.
This event that Inai is talking about would likely be just a 2-A event in itself anyway that has yet to happen. And considering that The Primordial Mind created all of creation, including the myriads of 2-A multiverses, I'd say he's definitely more powerful than this event. Creation is more impressive than destruction.
2-A destruction happens all the time in fiction, particularly DC and Marvel, while 2-A beings exists as it happens.
Tier 9 - 8 for low tier characters is fair'm inclined to say that most of the lower tier characters are around 9-B to 9-A or maybe even Tier 8 which would include the Keen folk, some human characters, characters who are considered mundane, etc. Ursa can shred through Mazzie's house sized mech with his claws and his Earthshock lore states that he can literally shake the earth with his steps, Centaur Warrunner and the strongest of his kind can wrestle and kill the largest Thunderhide Alphas (who are much bigger than the ones you see in the MOBA game), and there are some characters that reach that tier by sheer size such as Treant Protector.
Monkey King having amped forms in his Arcana but lacking feats to truly upgrade him is just upsetting lol. Honestly, statements should be enough for verses like Dota, unless they're exceptionally vague. We might never get feats on panel for them.I made a profile for Monkey King 3 years ago but I must admit that its pretty incomplete. He has an impressive feat of not being crushed under the weight on an entire mountain which should upgrade his Class 10 lifting strength which comes from a line that says his staff weighs 17 thousand lbs. Then there's Earth Spirit, Earthshaker, and Tiny who have mountain level statements but no feats yet. The lore explanations behind Magnus' spells state that he can harness the force of Mt Joeriak which is the volcano that killed some of his people in its eruption.
Making storms would be City-level, right? Then again, it really depends on how big the storm is. And in this case, we don't have much to go on for other than the existing statements. We should be able to at least give them the full yield of an average storm. Enslaving entire kingdoms is cool beans, although it depends on the time frame. It might be obsolete if he did it over time, or City-level if he did the feat in a short amount of time.Some magic users might be glass cannons btw. Invoker already has his own feats from both the game and the anime, but there's characters like Disruptor and Skywrath Mage who have statements where they can make storms with their magic and the Lich whose ice magic was stated to have enslaved entire kingdoms while he was still a living mage.
Understandable. I think what we have is solid as of now. Although we could have some staff to look at our stuff just to play it safe.I'm not very familiar with all this cosmic stuff especially when it ventures into multiverse stuff, so please bear with me on this. Every time I hear about tier 2 upgrades, I feel like it's too good to be true and I can recall when entire verses were downgraded because of the lack of evidence for their tier 2 ratings. I'm just trying to play safe here, but if I'm really convinced that 2-A Dota is a thing (besides Oracle) then I'm all for it.
Invoker said the world (The Terrene Plane) rests between the Seven Heavens and the Seven Hells. This plane is also being referred to as the Material realm, Physical realm, Mortal realm, etc. So it's quite explicit that the Seven Hells and the Seven Heavens are separate realms than that of Terrene plane. Also, Terrene Plane is part of the Seven Planes of Existence, in which the Seven Heavens and the Seven Hells aren't a part of.I want to make it clear that Seven Hells, Seven Heavens and the Middle Realm are but the Terrene Plane. Astral Plane and Fundamental Plane seem to 4 spatial dimensional planes. Also, 2-A+ isn't a thing anymore.
No way does it state anywhere that Terrene includes the non-corporeal planes like the Seven Heavens and Hells. Terrene is just the physical realm, the physical universe. Unless I missed something in the anime.No, Terrene Plane contains The Seven Heavens, The Seven Hells and The Middle Realm that contains Earth.
True. I somehow compared them to real-life interpretations of the afterlife, forgetting that physical demons literally came from there.Hells, Heavens aren’t non-corporeal realms. Many inhabitants are physical beings.
I think I misunderstood you. When you said 2-A+ isn't a thing anymore, you meant the rating itself doesn't have the + anymore? I thought you meant that the verse's cosmology isn't 2-A anymore. But anyway, I suppose you're right.That wouldn’t make it a lower level of 2–A, but extremely high into 2-A. And + don’t get use like that from tier 2 onward.
Yep.I think I misunderstood you. When you said 2-A+ isn't a thing anymore, you meant the rating itself doesn't have the + anymore? I thought you meant that the verse's cosmology isn't 2-A anymore.
Like I said before, twisting all of creation in this case is kinda vague so it's better to use it as supporting evidence rather than the main justification.So, do you agree with the justification I suggested?
I think this is fine. All we need to do now is to have a staff to look into this so we can apply the changes. Or do we still need to create a blog or a CRT?Yep.
Like I said before, twisting all of creation in this case is kinda vague so it's better to use it as supporting evidence rather than the main justification.
Elder Titan: 2-A (Broke the original universe into The Seven Planes. One of the planes, the Terrene Plane, contains the Seven Hells, the Seven Heavens and a middle realm, which are all constantly fracturing into infinite realities with each moment. His stomp still echoes the force of creation)
Eldwurm's souls: 2-A (The Thunder are literal four elements and four fundamental forces of all creation. Exist as eight pillars of creation supporting the universe - the Seven Planes)
The Fundamentals: 2-A (Manifestations of the their respective fundamental forces of all creation. The Fundamentals exist on all planes at once, beyond the limitations of the physical world and predates time. Arc Warden appreciates the help from a Fundamental. IO's overcharge can unravels time.)
The Spirits: 2-A (Comparable to The Fundamentals. Manifestations of the their respective elements of all creation)
The fragments of the Primordial Mind: 2-A (Remnant fragments of the infinite Primordial Mind, who created all of creation. Radiant and Dire are the Thought and Action of the Primordial Mind. Should be comparable or even stronger than the Elder Titan. Radiant and Dire twisted all of creation in their battle. Time and space are of little consequence to one as old as Zet)
"Time and space are of little consequence to one as old as Zet", this debunks 4 spatial dimensional existence. They're simply transcend space and predate time. Still enough for Higher-Dimensional Existence, just not have 4 spatial dimensions as I had assumed.