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- #41
Dawnbreaker's concept manip comes from her "creating order from the chaos that resides in each fight". Might be a bit vague, but it's definitely not flowery language given the context.
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Dota 2 Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Ecstasy_Amphetamine
- Start date
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- dota 2
- 9,056
- 1,802
- Thread starter
- #42
Her voice lines and responses could give us some clues to her lore as well. I don't have the game installed and I don't plan on doing it right now, so I'll just wait for the Dota wiki to upload her voice lines.
- 9,056
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- #44
I'm no calc expert so I don't know if that would work. Axe's Reaver feat is based on mountains that were seen in the Dota verse, not in real life.
Speaking of freezing feats, one of the Eldwurms in the Dota anime has a good freezing feat.
Speaking of freezing feats, one of the Eldwurms in the Dota anime has a good freezing feat.
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Wouldn't literally reality warping all of creation to serve/fight for them still count as an AP feat? I don't think this specifically refers to the current war, as Arc Warden's lore had stated that he defeated them long before the planet had flourishing life on it.
Given Invoker's explanation on the Seven Planes, and how each of them fractures into infinite realities in every moment, this might actually be solid grounds for Zet to be upgraded to 2-A
- 9,056
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- #46
By the way, where did the "twisting all of creation" feat come from?
Edit: Nvm, found it in Arc Warden's lore. The statement on its own is really vague if you ask me
Edit: Nvm, found it in Arc Warden's lore. The statement on its own is really vague if you ask me
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The cosmic forces are definitely in 2-A, but we should focus on lower tier characters. They’re the main focus of the series after all. Also, cosmic force might have Higher-Dimensional Existence as the Transcendencies transcend matters. Spectre is described as a higher energy drawn to the physical world.
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- 9,056
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- #49
Who do you think are those cosmic forces? (besides the 3 Primordial Mind guys and any 2-A Dota character)
- 9,056
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- Thread starter
- #50
I've made a list of feats that can help give some tiers for the lesser characters. If we can get someone to calc them, we can start scaling some characters including Zeus who cratered a city in the Artifact game.
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I think it should be taken at face value, to be honest. I've seen far more questionable statements get accepted in this forum.
Radiant and Dire should get half the value of twisting a "creation" that has seven total 2-A cosmology, while Zet gets the full value for stomping them.
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We shouldn't use it as the main justification, rather a supporting one. The three pieces of Primordial Mind can just scale to the Elder Titan, the Fundamentals and the dragon souls. Radiant and Dire are the Thought and Action of the Primordial Mind.
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- #55
Speaking of Aghanim, I think he deserves a profile seeing how he has his own event like Siltbreaker. Not sure what his tier and abilities would be though.
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I don't think Elder Titan and the Fundamentals scale to the Shards of the Primordial Mind, but I also think them being merely tier 4 is horribly underselling them. But we need more proof of them being at least Low 2-C, because I personally believe they're at that level by virtue of being Universal constants. Also, I find it hard to believe that they're any weaker than Faceless Void.
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Given the scope of the cosmology's expansion due to Invoker's explanation, I believe we can make progress to revise the verse from being 2-C, to being 2-A+, and upgrade Zet accordingly.
Also, there are a whole bunch of confusion in regards to the verse's cosmology itself. The verse already goes as far as 2-A, as even Oracle has already made an infinite 2-A multiverse before. The Primordial Mind created all of creation (including the numerous 2-A multiverses as per Invoker's explanation), with two of the Primordial Mind's pieces literally warping the entirety of it in their fight. And Zet being demonstrably stronger than them for beating them in one attack. Yet we assume that "All of creation" mentioned in Zet's lore is only universal in scope, which directly conflicts with what we have so far.
Logically speaking, Radiant and Dire should be 2-A, with Zet being in the higher ends of 2-A instead of being merely 3-B. Is this not enough grounds for a revision?
Also, there are a whole bunch of confusion in regards to the verse's cosmology itself. The verse already goes as far as 2-A, as even Oracle has already made an infinite 2-A multiverse before. The Primordial Mind created all of creation (including the numerous 2-A multiverses as per Invoker's explanation), with two of the Primordial Mind's pieces literally warping the entirety of it in their fight. And Zet being demonstrably stronger than them for beating them in one attack. Yet we assume that "All of creation" mentioned in Zet's lore is only universal in scope, which directly conflicts with what we have so far.
Logically speaking, Radiant and Dire should be 2-A, with Zet being in the higher ends of 2-A instead of being merely 3-B. Is this not enough grounds for a revision?
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- 9,056
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- Thread starter
- #58
Considering how Io is basically the universe's electromagnetic force which explains its omnipresence, them being tier 4 characters undersells them alot. He'd be probably higher than tier 3 since he exists in all planes
Faceless Void might actually be weaker than them in terms of physicals but not hax. It's implied that he can wipe out an entire timeline with his powers which is actually the whole space time continuum in the context of Dota 2
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- #59
Before we do any revisions btw, I'd like to see some connection between the anime and the main games. Some of the anime exclusive characters have been name-dropped like Kaden in the mobile game Underlords and DK x Mirana was referenced in the same game as well. However there's still not enough proof to connect the cosmology shown in the anime and the main game.
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Precisely. I think merely scaling them to Io's feat is nonsense.
Vanessa only said the Faceless Void has the capacity to destroy a timeline, and no mention of ability used. I think it's more reasonable to assume he destroys timelines with his physical blows alone. And considering his Time Lock ability lore states that his casual blows can shift dimensions, it's probably not that crazy to think so.
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I think there's more than enough connections to be drawn from the anime to the main game.
Aside from the confirmation that the Anime takes place in the past, before the Ancients employed the Heroes, and the characters that appear, we get direct confirmation that it's the same cosmology from Oracle's monologue at the start of the first episode. And there are little bits of connections too, like Anti-Mage's Persona, Wei, saying she doesn't like killing fathers when killing Invoker, which we know is actually factual in Dragon's Blood, and other such minor details.
The thing that conflicts with the lore of the main game the most are the existence of the Dragons that represent the Fundamentals, as we already have the four Fundamentals for that. So It's either that the anime takes place in a separate universe than that of the universe the game's lore takes place in, or the Dragons are mere facets of the Fundamentals, or merely pillars that support the already established Fundamentals. Either way, the anime, whether it's in a separate universe, is still canonically a part of the Dota multiverse, therefore the cosmology should still solidly be 2-A+.
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So apparently, according to these tweets, The dragons are the Fundamentals themselves. In the metaphysical hierarchy, they are above the Fundamentals themselves. The Fundamentals we know in the game are merely tightly bound to the corresponding Fundamental forces. The Dragons are the Fundamentals themselves. So the Dragons, at least the ones representing the Fundamentals, would be stronger than the Fundamentals we know in the game.
This is all very confusing. Although we could just remedy this with the explanation that, although the anime is a part of the multiverse, the anime's universe itself is fundamentally different than the game's universe. So the Anime's Fundamentals could be the Dragons, while the main universe's Fundamentals are the ones we know.
Either way, this does not affect the overall scope of the verse, nor Dire, Radiant and Zet's feats.
This is all very confusing. Although we could just remedy this with the explanation that, although the anime is a part of the multiverse, the anime's universe itself is fundamentally different than the game's universe. So the Anime's Fundamentals could be the Dragons, while the main universe's Fundamentals are the ones we know.
Either way, this does not affect the overall scope of the verse, nor Dire, Radiant and Zet's feats.
- 9,056
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- Thread starter
- #63
It doesn't make sense with the current game lore though. How are the eight dragon souls above the Fundamentals themselves, when one of them is literally the entire universe's force of electromagnetism? In the anime's case, Indrak would be the equivalent of Io. However, the former only represents one half of the force that is Io. I guess it is confusing, but we shouldn't believe it yet since the writer said that it was just his headcanon in the very same thread. Hopefully he could change this before the next season.
As for the 3 fragments of the Primordial Mind, can you explain to me your reasoning for them being 2-A? I might have evidence against it but I'd like to hear what you say.
As for the 3 fragments of the Primordial Mind, can you explain to me your reasoning for them being 2-A? I might have evidence against it but I'd like to hear what you say.
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I think we should prioritize the game's lore. So for now, we should decide whether to treat the anime's events as an entirely separate universe, or that the Dragons are just another representation of the Fundamental forces.
The justification should be like this for Dire and Radiant (if we ever decide to give them profiles): 2-A (Twisted all of creation in their battle, which includes the Seven Planes, the Seven Heavens, and the Seven Hells. Each of these planes of existence contains seven realms that fracture into an Infinite number of realities in every moment.) We can insert the clip here.
And Zet's should be like this: 2-A+ (Zet is the strongest fragment of the Primordial Mind, stronger than the combined power of Radiant and Dire, who were twisting all of creation as a side effect of fighting each other, to the point that the full extent of his power was able to simultaneously overcome both of his siblings with a single attack). Basically the same, but on higher level.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this, and what your problems with it so we can address it quickly. Dota's page in this site desperately needs a revision.
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- #65
I guess you're right. Speaking of game lore, Elder Titan has an overlooked feat in his bio. It's said that he was the one who made the Dota universe alongside the 4 Fundamentals in an empty void that did not have the flow of time yet. He accidentally broke the very world he was in the process of creating and split said world into the many planes that we know today. Because of this, he should be Low 2-C or higher if the anime counts. He's not 2-A because his lore specifically said that he made and broke a "world" and not "worlds". I got all this from a combination of ET's and Void Spirit's lore if you're wondering.
I disagree with the 2-A ratings btw. Because according to Void Spirit, he mentions an event called "The Great Confluence" which is stated to be the moment when "the fabrics of multiple realities are fated to collide and the ripples of destruction will touch all planes equally". Seeing how this is a threat to someone like Void Spirit, I don't think the Primordial Mind would be anymore powerful than this catastrophic event unless this is the work of both Ancients.
I disagree with the 2-A ratings btw. Because according to Void Spirit, he mentions an event called "The Great Confluence" which is stated to be the moment when "the fabrics of multiple realities are fated to collide and the ripples of destruction will touch all planes equally". Seeing how this is a threat to someone like Void Spirit, I don't think the Primordial Mind would be anymore powerful than this catastrophic event unless this is the work of both Ancients.
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That's a great find. Elder Titan being tier 4 is an even bigger nonsense than tier 4 Fundamentals.
I don't see how this affects the 2-A ratings. The 2-A cosmology has already been established, with Oracle creating a 2-A multiverse, and WoG confirming that every game is a canon event that are each in itself are individualistic timelines. Now further supported with Invoker's explanation in Dragon's Blood.
This event that Inai is talking about would likely be just a 2-A event in itself anyway that has yet to happen. And considering that The Primordial Mind created all of creation, including the myriads of 2-A multiverses, I'd say he's definitely more powerful than this event. Creation is more impressive than destruction.
2-A destruction happens all the time in fiction, particularly DC and Marvel, while 2-A beings exists as it happens.
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- #67
I'm inclined to say that most of the lower tier characters are around 9-B to 9-A or maybe even Tier 8 which would include the Keen folk, some human characters, characters who are considered mundane, etc. Ursa can shred through Mazzie's house sized mech with his claws and his Earthshock lore states that he can literally shake the earth with his steps, Centaur Warrunner and the strongest of his kind can wrestle and kill the largest Thunderhide Alphas (who are much bigger than the ones you see in the MOBA game), and there are some characters that reach that tier by sheer size such as Treant Protector.
I made a profile for Monkey King 3 years ago but I must admit that its pretty incomplete. He has an impressive feat of not being crushed under the weight on an entire mountain which should upgrade his Class 10 lifting strength which comes from a line that says his staff weighs 17 thousand lbs. Then there's Earth Spirit, Earthshaker, and Tiny who have mountain level statements but no feats yet. The lore explanations behind Magnus' spells state that he can harness the force of Mt Joeriak which is the volcano that killed some of his people in its eruption.
Some magic users might be glass cannons btw. Invoker already has his own feats from both the game and the anime, but there's characters like Disruptor and Skywrath Mage who have statements where they can make storms with their magic and the Lich whose ice magic was stated to have enslaved entire kingdoms while he was still a living mage.
I'm not very familiar with all this cosmic stuff especially when it ventures into multiverse stuff, so please bear with me on this. Every time I hear about tier 2 upgrades, I feel like it's too good to be true and I can recall when entire verses were downgraded because of the lack of evidence for their tier 2 ratings. I'm just trying to play safe here, but if I'm really convinced that 2-A Dota is a thing (besides Oracle) then I'm all for it.
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Tier 9 - 8 for low tier characters is fair
Monkey King having amped forms in his Arcana but lacking feats to truly upgrade him is just upsetting lol. Honestly, statements should be enough for verses like Dota, unless they're exceptionally vague. We might never get feats on panel for them.
Making storms would be City-level, right? Then again, it really depends on how big the storm is. And in this case, we don't have much to go on for other than the existing statements. We should be able to at least give them the full yield of an average storm. Enslaving entire kingdoms is cool beans, although it depends on the time frame. It might be obsolete if he did it over time, or City-level if he did the feat in a short amount of time.
Understandable. I think what we have is solid as of now. Although we could have some staff to look at our stuff just to play it safe.
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From what I understand, the souls of the Eldwurm are the forces of the universe aka all of creation. Elder Titan broke that universe into the now known Seven Planes, the event is called The Schism. From that event, The Fundamentals were created, they're but manifestations. The Spirits are the same - Kaolin said that his spirit accretes from a higher plane and Void Spirit said he's Void incarnated. These souls aren't really sentient so that's why they need bodies of sentient beings. I want to make it clear that Seven Hells, Seven Heavens and the Middle Realm are but the Terrene Plane. Astral Plane and Fundamental Plane seem to 4 spatial dimensional planes. Also, 2-A+ isn't a thing anymore.
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Invoker said the world (The Terrene Plane) rests between the Seven Heavens and the Seven Hells. This plane is also being referred to as the Material realm, Physical realm, Mortal realm, etc. So it's quite explicit that the Seven Hells and the Seven Heavens are separate realms than that of Terrene plane. Also, Terrene Plane is part of the Seven Planes of Existence, in which the Seven Heavens and the Seven Hells aren't a part of.
"The realm we inhabit rests between the Seven Heavens and the Seven Hells. At each moment, each of these realms fracture into an infinite number of different realities."
The above quote is very indicative of 2-A+ cosmology. Of course, I'm not an expert on things like this, so I suggest we call a staff who is.
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No way does it state anywhere that Terrene includes the non-corporeal planes like the Seven Heavens and Hells. Terrene is just the physical realm, the physical universe. Unless I missed something in the anime.
If this is the case, the cosmology would still be solidly 2-A, just at a lower level. So it wouldn't affect the 2-A ratings that much.
If you're right, the justifications for 2-A Dire and Radiant would instead become: 2-A (Twisted all of creation in their battle, which includes the Terrene Plane. The Terrene Plane is a plane of existence that contains the Seven Heaven, the Seven Hells, and the Physical realm, in which each of these realms fracture into an infinite number of different realities in every moment.)
And Arc Warden would have the At least in his rating instead of +.
Not really that much of a difference. Although this could be argued to be really high into 2-B, or outright 2-A (since there's an infinite number of fracturing realities).
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Hells, Heavens aren’t non-corporeal realms. Many inhabitants are physical beings. The war threatens all of creation, wouldn’t it be weird for the Elder Titan to only mentions The Seven Planes without Hells and Heavens. No, because they’re parts of a plane.
That wouldn’t make it a lower level of 2–A, but extremely high into 2-A. And + don’t get use like that from tier 2 onward.
That wouldn’t make it a lower level of 2–A, but extremely high into 2-A. And + don’t get use like that from tier 2 onward.
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Elder Titan dwelt among the jagged shards and fissured planes, along with other lost fragments that had sifted down through the cracks in the early universe. These lost fragments might be the nature of realms like Hells and Heavens, which explains why they’re fracturing every moments.
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True. I somehow compared them to real-life interpretations of the afterlife, forgetting that physical demons literally came from there.
I think I misunderstood you. When you said 2-A+ isn't a thing anymore, you meant the rating itself doesn't have the + anymore? I thought you meant that the verse's cosmology isn't 2-A anymore. But anyway, I suppose you're right.
So, do you agree with the justification I suggested?
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Yep.
Like I said before, twisting all of creation in this case is kinda vague so it's better to use it as supporting evidence rather than the main justification.
Elder Titan: 2-A (Broke the original universe into The Seven Planes. One of the planes, the Terrene Plane, contains the Seven Hells, the Seven Heavens and a middle realm, which are all constantly fracturing into infinite realities with each moment. His stomp still echoes the force of creation)
Eldwurm's souls: 2-A (The Thunder are literal four elements and four fundamental forces of all creation. Exist as eight pillars of creation supporting the universe - the Seven Planes)
The Fundamentals: 2-A (Manifestations of the their respective fundamental forces of all creation. The Fundamentals exist on all planes at once, beyond the limitations of the physical world and predates time. Arc Warden appreciates the help from a Fundamental. IO's overcharge can unravels time.)
The Spirits: 2-A (Comparable to The Fundamentals. Manifestations of the their respective elements of all creation)
The fragments of the Primordial Mind: 2-A (Remnant fragments of the infinite Primordial Mind, who created all of creation. Radiant and Dire are the Thought and Action of the Primordial Mind. Should be comparable or even stronger than the Elder Titan. Radiant and Dire twisted all of creation in their battle. Time and space are of little consequence to one as old as Zet)
"Time and space are of little consequence to one as old as Zet", this debunks 4 spatial dimensional existence. They're simply transcend space and predate time. Still enough for Higher-Dimensional Existence, just not have 4 spatial dimensions as I had assumed.
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I think this is fine. All we need to do now is to have a staff to look into this so we can apply the changes. Or do we still need to create a blog or a CRT?
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- #80
By the way, this is a discussion thread so no major revisions or changes can be made here. You need to make a separate CRT for that
If you're making a CRT, send your draft here so we can all see what it looks like before it gets posted.
If you're making a CRT, send your draft here so we can all see what it looks like before it gets posted.
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