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DOOM - Tier 1 Cosmology Proposal

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Okay. Let's wait a while to see if the people that I called for earlier will show up again and discuss the issue with each other then.
 
Whataboutism is an issue as it asks others to know the context of verses they may not know, other verses are not our standards but what people interpreted out of them in the past. Our standards themselves are a bag of issues as cases like this can happen and there is disagreement over it. I have no idea which of Firestorm's points made Ultima go from disagreeing to agreeing, but whichever it was I would think it would have to be something our standards go over with massive clarity so that anyone can conclude the same, that way if anyone disagrees with that bit of our standards they can just make a thread about it.
 
Referring to previous similar cases as precedent isn't whataboutism. It's a common practice on the site and in actual court rooms.

'Whataboutism' involves accusing others of offenses as a way of deflecting attention from one's own deeds. That's not what I'm doing. I'm verifying the consistency of the tiering system application.

If the current case and all similar previous cases need to be re-evaluated and revised, that's fine. At least we're all on the same page regarding the application of the Tiering System.
 
The points Efi's brought up haven't been related to this specific instance anyway, just talking about how technically a lower dimensional object can be "bigger" than a higher dimensional one, when we're talking about an infinitely sized 4-D object and the thing it's in having to be 5-D to contain it.

By all means, that shouldn't be necessary, Firestorm.
 
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Well, there is an overweight for accepting this, but not a clear consensus. Do any of you know of other staff members that might be willing to help out here, so we can send a notification to them?
 
LordGriffin has commented on some DOOM threads before. Definitely not Ovens since he's taking a break.

I don't think we can make a consensus till Ultima talks out his stuff with Firestorm, since that's the main point of contention right now. I'd suggest waiting till Ultima talks with Firestorm, because I don't see this thread going anywhere productive till that happens & there's no need to rush it.
 
Axxtentacle said:
LordGriffin has commented on some DOOM threads before. Definitely not Ovens since he's taking a break.

I don't think we can make a consensus till Ultima talks out his stuff with Firestorm, since that's the main point of contention right now. I'd suggest waiting till Ultima talks with Firestorm, because I don't see this thread going anywhere productive till that happens & there's no need to rush it.
Click to expand...
Okay.

@Ultima_Reality

Would you be willing to help out here please?
 
Antvasima said:
Would you be willing to help out here please?
Click to expand...
Sure. Apologies for my absence on this thread (And other ones, for the matter)

Regardless, skimming through the above discussion, it seems like it shifted from arguing Hell is Low 1-C to arguing the Void containing the multiverse is. Are there any scans or relevant excerpts describing said void? I couldn't find much by going through the previous discussions.

Donatien said:
I simply pointed out that uncountable nouns are "not something you can quantify." (At least without an additional countable part such as "pounds" or "pieces" which are NOT used here) In this situation specifically, the only definition that can possibly meet this criterion is "dimension" as in the concept of dimensions. The idea that "dimension" in this quote refers to measurements contradicts this criterion (measurements are countable and can be quantified).
Click to expand...
Not something you can quantify in a grammatical sense, yes, but they can still refer to things that themselves are quantifiable. For example, "infinite in size" is a sentence that involves an uncountable noun, but it nevertheless refers to a property of a thing that is quantifiable (Its size). Same thing would apply here.

Eficiente said:
It's a bit paradoxical. If you mean Space B being larger as in its dimensionality then that's one thing, but lower dimensional things can be larger around higher dimensional things, just not cover them whole. You can draw a big line across a smaller 2-D square, put a 3-D cube in the middle of & through a larger 2-D space, and so on. If the thing that makes Space B special in a verse is that "beings live in it" or "it's a notable place known about", then so what?
Click to expand...
The line wouldn't actually be larger that the square, since the amount of room it'd take up in a plane would ultimately be just 0, same for a square in a 3-D space, and a cube in a 4-D space, and so on. That analogy is pretty bad on multiple levels and doesn't even seem to apply here, regardless, since we seem to be talking about a void that encompasses reality.

Eficiente said:
If you don't say "Object A has infinite 4-D volume" as a fact, but a conclusion you make based on what it is (A multiverse)
Click to expand...
I mean, yeah. Infinite 4-D objects = Infinite 4-D space being taken up, and therefore infinite hypervolume. It is a fact.

Eficiente said:
then it should be easier to visualize how Space B is 4-D, and Object A's limits are where the multiverse ends rather than where the 4-D space ends.
Click to expand...
What?

Eficiente said:
Outside this context, higher dimensional spaces can exist w/o the spaces outside them being higher. Remove here the fact that Space B is larger and if Object A exist in a self-contained way, bigger in the inside than how it is outside then the space outside it can be of a lower dimensionality.
Click to expand...
Why would we assume this?
 
There's nothing too notable about the Void itself, just that it was there before the Multiverse/all of creation and is what contains it. We never really hear about it besides Davoth existed in the void alone before he created everything.

If there's more info, Gews would know, but I personally don't.
 
@Ultima_Reality

Book of the Seraphs and Story of Hell

It is written by the Seraphs that when the void first appeared, Davoth alone swept across it. New realities bloomed where he lingered. Jekkad was the first sprung forth from him. Here, the Father experimented until he created Urdak.

Davoth lived in the primordial plane larger than the multiple 2-A structures he created.
Davoth created Hell to be a small part of his being, and Hell is infinite in length, width, height, and time.
It's said that True Vega can hold a 2-A system in his arms.
Davoth should be Low 1-C like Arceus.

True Vega and Doomslayer would scale.
 
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Well, thank for the informations, anyway i still agree with a Possibly Low 1-C for Void in case anyone wondering
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Not something you can quantify in a grammatical sense, yes, but they can still refer to things that themselves are quantifiable. For example, "infinite in size" is a sentence that involves an uncountable noun, but it nevertheless refers to a property of a thing that is quantifiable (Its size). Same thing would apply here.
Click to expand...
The same thing would not apply here. "Measurements" are countable and quantifiable in both whatever sense you are talking about AND in the grammatical sense though (Ex: one measurement, a measurement, some measurements, two measurements), so "dimension" meaning "measurements" still contradicts the way the word is used since "dimension" is being used as a word that is unquantifiable in the grammatical sense. The fact still stands that in the quote, "dimension" must refer to the concept of spatial dimensions since there is nothing else it can mean.
 
Firestorm808 said:
Referring to previous similar cases as precedent isn't whataboutism. It's a common practice on the site and in actual court rooms.

'Whataboutism' involves accusing others of offenses as a way of deflecting attention from one's own deeds. That's not what I'm doing. I'm verifying the consistency of the tiering system application.
Click to expand...
The meaning is wider than that, argue how something is x tier by presenting another example of something having been already agreed to be x tier and claim that those are our standards counts. I meant the comment before my own, your approach to examples isn't the same.
Ultima_Reality said:
The line wouldn't actually be larger that the square, since the amount of room it'd take up in a plane would ultimately be just 0, same for a square in a 3-D space, and a cube in a 4-D space, and so on. That analogy is pretty bad on multiple levels and doesn't even seem to apply here, regardless, since we seem to be talking about a void that encompasses reality.
Click to expand...
I too got little info on that void. From the point of view of the line, it would be larger if the line is all the measure of size it knows. From the 2-D point of view of 2-D space, it would just see a small 2-D square rather the 3-D cube it is. And so on.
Ultima_Reality said:
I mean, yeah. Infinite 4-D objects = Infinite 4-D space being taken up, and therefore infinite hypervolume. It is a fact.


What?
Click to expand...
I proposed infinite 4-D objects being next to some other 4-D structure bigger, but not qualitatively bigger. The former objects may be confirmed to be 4-D, but that doesn't necessarily mean that where they end there is no more 4-D space. Those infinite objects may be called a "multiverse" in-universe, or by fans for practicality's sake (Since multiverse-like structures aren't always called multiverses), but that's not synonymous to their ends being the end of 4-D things.

So rather than
  • Infinite 4-D objects exist as one structure -> other structure outside of it exists = said structure has to 5-D/Low 1-C
I say
  • Infinite 4-D objects exist as one structure -> other structure outside of it exists = said structure is not Low 1-C unless proven
Ultima_Reality said:
Why would we assume this?
Click to expand...
If there is anti-evidence that they are higher dimensional spaces. It's common for fiction to make universes, timelines, multiverses and so on spheres or equivalent things that are bigger in the inside to how they look in a confirmed way rather than some inapplicable visual, or adjust characters & things' dimensions when going into higher & lower dimensional spaces.
 
So have you reached agreements about anything here yet?
 
Reading through this I get where Ultima and Eficiente are coming from, but from what Firestorm has shown a “possibly Low 1-C” seems fair to me.
 
Firestorm808 said:
Book of the Seraphs and Story of Hell

It is written by the Seraphs that when the void first appeared, Davoth alone swept across it. New realities bloomed where he lingered. Jekkad was the first sprung forth from him. Here, the Father experimented until he created Urdak.

Davoth lived in the primordial plane larger than the multiple 2-A structures he created.
Click to expand...
Living in a realm that is X tier doesn't exactly mean you scale to it, though. Davoth would still need some evidence that he can affect the void in some way that'd net Low 1-C AP.

Firestorm808 said:
Davoth created Hell to be a small part of his being, and Hell is infinite in length, width, height, and time.
Click to expand...
The scan on the profile only has (what I assume is) a developer confirming thet Hell is an extension of Davoth, which doesn't exactly do much to suggest that it's literally infinitesimal to him, or something like that, just that it is a part of him, and when it comes to infinity, a part is not necessarily larger than the whole.

Firestorm808 said:
It's said that True Vega can hold a 2-A system in his arms.
Click to expand...
I assume this is referring to this?:

Foreseeing that Davoth's rule would ultimately grow to threaten all creation, and that Davoth would someday rise to challenge the Father himself, the creator of all things sealed Jekkad off from the myriad dimensions enfolded in his arms.
Click to expand...

If so, on its own that sounds pretty vague, and not necessarily literal, especially given singular realities like Urdak are described as "blooming around" the Creator (Which in this case would in truth be Davoth here, if the profile is anything to go by, yes?)

Donatien said:
I suppose they haven't yet, but I also tried messaging Ultima about this and he hasn't replied to my message yet.
Click to expand...
I'll respond to said message in a bit, by the by.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
The scan on the profile only has (what I assume is) a developer confirming thet Hell is an extension of Davoth, which doesn't exactly do much to suggest that it's literally infinitesimal to him, or something like that, just that it is a part of him, and when it comes to infinity, a part is not necessarily larger than the whole.
Click to expand...
To clarify, you are agreeing that Davoth is larger than Hell since Hell is the smaller infinity "part" of him?

Here is a visual.

54lwiX4.png
 
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Ultima_Reality said:
Living in a realm that is X tier doesn't exactly mean you scale to it, though. Davoth would still need some evidence that he can affect the void in some way that'd net Low 1-C AP.
Click to expand...
The statement is meant to be used in conjunction with the others.
Davoth lived in a plane larger than the multiple 2-A structures he created.
Davoth created a 2-A realm as a smaller part of his being.

Is an infinite instead of finite 5-D size required for a being to have Low 1-C AP?
 
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Ultima_Reality said:
I assume this is referring to this?:

Foreseeing that Davoth's rule would ultimately grow to threaten all creation, and that Davoth would someday rise to challenge the Father himself, the creator of all things sealed Jekkad off from the myriad dimensions enfolded in his arms.

If so, on its own that sounds pretty vague, and not necessarily literal, especially given singular realities like Urdak are described as "blooming around" the Creator (Which in this case would in truth be Davoth here, if the profile is anything to go by, yes?)
Click to expand...

On its own, it can be seen as vague. However, additional context adds to its validity.

Hell is 2-A and a part of Davoth. Davoth created Urdak to be comparable to Hell but outside his self.

Vega is shown to be comparable to Davoth.

Vega holding a 2-A realm like Davoth has validity.
 
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2-A is countable infinite on a 5-D scale given it requires an infinite number of 4-D universes and includes the 5th dimension that separates each and everyone one of those infinite universes thus countable infinity in scale.

But a Low 1-C feat is uncountable infinite on a 5-D scale. Not saying countable or uncountable infinite need to be specifically stated, but if a realm is qualitively superior in nature to those realms, then it could be Low 1-C.
 
Ultima seems to make sense above. Thank you for helping out.
 
Current tally for a Possibly Low 1-C Rating
  1. Agree
    1. Firestorm808 | Staff
    2. Ultima_Reality | Staff
    3. DarkDragonMedeus | Staff
    4. Pain_to12 | Knowledgeable Member
    5. Jared1111 | Knowledgeable Member
    6. Donatien
    7. Gewsbumpz_dude
    8. Another_Council
    9. CurrySenpai
    10. Greatsage13th
    11. ZeedKZ
    12. Jamesthetaker
    13. Veloxt1r0kore
    14. Transcending
    15. Romeu08
    16. Yemma670
    17. DTG499
    18. Scottycj256
    19. Oliver_de_jesus
    20. Vietthai96
    21. Hellscream
    22. Axxtentacle
  2. Disagree
    1. Eficiente | Staff
    2. Everything12 | Staff
  3. Neutral
    1. Shmooply
    2. HammerStrikes219
    3. Cat
 
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Okay. If Ultima also agrees now, we seem to have an overweight on the agree side here.
 
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