DOOM - Tier 1 Cosmology Proposal

[Eficiente]

Do we have previous examples of the case of lower dimensionality? I don't recall verses that have that sort of structure.

• In the MCU thanks to that awful Loki show the outside of the timeline (The energy line), and infinite timelines, is space with floating rocky islands. If someone were to manipulate space or rocks there as thicc as 1 moment in a timeline then that wouldn't be universal. The timelines there are the big complex structures, everything else around them is not.
  • Dr. Strange Multiverse of Madness has a place that's the space between universes, and it's just another reality of unknown size.
• In Gravity Falls the Nightmare Realm is a realm between dimensions, and it's pretty much another universe.
• In Kirby Another Dimension seems to be the space between dimensions, and it's a tunnel with many regular universes in it.

 

[Hellscream]

• In the MCU thanks to that awful Loki show the outside of the timeline (The energy line), and infinite timelines, is space with floating rocky islands. If someone were to manipulate space or rocks there as thicc as 1 moment in a timeline then that wouldn't be universal. The timelines there are the big complex structures, everything else around them is not.
  • Dr. Strange Multiverse of Madness has a place that's the space between universes, and it's just another reality of unknown size.
• In Gravity Falls the Nightmare Realm is a realm between dimensions, and it's pretty much another universe.
• In Kirby Another Dimension seems to be the space between dimensions, and it's a tunnel with many regular universes in it.

What does that have to do with the dimensionality in doom tho?

 

[Donatien]

What does that have to do with the dimensionality in doom tho?

It's just a counterexample.

 

[Firestorm808]

• In the MCU thanks to that awful Loki show the outside of the timeline (The energy line), and infinite timelines, is space with floating rocky islands. If someone were to manipulate space or rocks there as thicc as 1 moment in a timeline then that wouldn't be universal. The timelines there are the big complex structures, everything else around them is not.

According to the show, He Who Remains found an asteroid at the end of time and built his residence on it. The Citadel of Time isn't located outside the 4-D Realm. The closest to being outside the 4-D realm would be the Nexus of all realities, but even then, that is only one 2-A structure.

• Dr. Strange Multiverse of Madness has a place that's the space between universes, and it's just another reality of unknown size.

I don't see why a realm located between timelines is being equated to a realm that contains multiple 2-A structures.

• In Gravity Falls the Nightmare Realm is a realm between dimensions, and it's pretty much another universe.

Same question as above.

• In Kirby Another Dimension seems to be the space between dimensions, and it's a tunnel with many regular universes in it.

Same question as above.

Can you give me an example of a realm that isn't Low 1-C even though it contains multiple 2-A Structures?

 

[Makoto500]

I can't say I follow your explanation. If you have multiple infinite-sized 4-D realms, how can they fit in another 4-D realm if it's not 5-D?

Can you give an example of this being applied on the site? I don't recall verses like that.

In set theory we have a thing called bijection, which happens when a different set have the same elements of another set.

Adding a "finite bijected set" will indeed create a bigger element but adding infinite bijected set will only lead to a already mapped element as both not only have a established bijection but it also pretty much holds all possible numbers on the domain of function (think of it as it's concept) to create a new non-mapped element.

So for an infinite 4d thing here to be 5d you need it to atleast create an a=b amount of this infinite realms.

Anyways I disagree, for reasons above.

 

[Hellscream]

Isn't a construct that can contain 2-A structures called a hyperspace, which is 5-D?

 

[Firestorm808]

In set theory we have a thing called bijection, which happens when a different set have the same elements of another set.

Adding a "finite bijected set" will indeed create a bigger element but adding infinite bijected set will only lead to a already mapped element as both not only have a established bijection but it also pretty much holds all possible numbers on the domain of function (think of it as it's concept) to create a new non-mapped element.

So for an infinite 4d thing here to be 5d you need it to atleast create an a=b amount of this infinite realms.

Anyways I disagree, for reasons above.

Can you translate that into an example on the site? Can you give me an example of a realm that isn't Low 1-C even though it contains multiple 2-A Structures?

 

[Makoto500]

Can you translate that into an example on the site? Can you give me an example of a realm that isn't Low 1-C even though it contains multiple 2-A Structures?

I'm not that familiar with 2-A characters, but I did find this on FAQ:

A: In spite of what our intuitions may tell us, destroying or fully affecting multiple infinite-sized multiverses is in fact not better than doing the same to a single infinite multiverse, and thus, not above the "baseline" for 2-A

Which isn't really containing, but this should tell that the wiki treats that adding infinities doesn't create a bigger infinity.

 

[Hellscream]

I'm not that familiar with 2-A characters, but I did find this on FAQ:

A: In spite of what our intuitions may tell us, destroying or fully affecting multiple infinite-sized multiverses is in fact not better than doing the same to a single infinite multiverse, and thus, not above the "baseline" for 2-A

Which isn't really containing, but this should tell that the wiki treats that adding infinities doesn't create a bigger infinity.

That makes no sense considering how scaling works, what's the difference between destroying a single infinite sized universe, and an infinite amount of them?
according to that scaling both should be the same, which is definetly not the case.

 

[Hellscream]

It's called layer stacking, which is commonly used in tiering

 

[Makoto500]

Isn't a construct that can contain 2-A structures called a hyperspace, which is 5-D?

Hyperspace is just wormholes that lead to higher dimension, hyper-space is also used on M-theory as far as i know, But i haven't seen containing 2-A structures=5d in hyperspace.
(You can send me a link that explains this though if you have one.)

That makes no sense considering how scaling works, what's the difference between destroying a single infinite sized universe, and an infinite amount of them?
according to that scaling both should be the same, which is definetly not the case.

Wdym? Are you saying that infinite + infinite = bigger infinite?

 

[Makoto500]

It's called layer stacking, which is commonly used in tiering

Infinite universes + infinite universes is baseline 2-A in the wiki, it's in the tiering system FAQ.

Anyways Let me unfollow this thread now.

 

[Hellscream]

Hyperspace is just wormholes that lead to higher dimension, hyper-space is also used on M-theory as far as i know, But i haven't seen containing 2-A structures=5d in hyperspace.
(You can send me a link that explains this though if you have one.)

Wdym? Are you saying that infinite + infinite = bigger infinite?

 

[Hellscream]

Therefore containing infinite 4-d constructs would most certainly make it 5-d

 

[Firestorm808]

A: In spite of what our intuitions may tell us, destroying or fully affecting multiple infinite-sized multiverses is in fact not better than doing the same to a single infinite multiverse, and thus, not above the "baseline" for 2-A

Destroying multiple 2-A structures and being dimensionally larger than multiple 2-A structures are two different things.

 

[Makoto500]

Destroying multiple 2-A structures and being dimensionally larger than multiple 2-A structures are two different things.

Was it ever stated that it's bigger?

 

[Firestorm808]

Was it ever stated that it's bigger?

Yes. The multiple 2-A structures were created in the same realm.

 

[Makoto500]

Yes. The multiple 2-A structures were created in the same realm.

How does that lead to the conclusion that the realm is bigger?

Was there a infinitesimal feat here?

 

[Hellscream]

How does that lead to the conclusion that the realm is bigger?

Was there a infinitesimal feat here?

I just told you that a realm containting multiple 2-A structures is called a hyperspace, and sent a short vid explaining what it is
In this case, it most definetly is 5-D if not higher

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Can you translate that into an example on the site? Can you give me an example of a realm that isn't Low 1-C even though it contains multiple 2-A Structures?

Silver sea from maou gakuin.

 

[Hellscream]

Silver sea from maou gakuin.

The silver sea is a 2-A construct, it's not the same.

 

[Firestorm808]

How does that lead to the conclusion that the realm is bigger?

Wouldn't a container of multiple 2-A structures needs to be bigger than those multiple 2-A structures, or else it wouldn't fit them in the first place?

 

[Hellscream]

Wouldn't a container of multiple 2-A structures needs to be bigger than those multiple 2-A structures, or else it wouldn't fit them in the first place?

Yes, this is known as a hyperspace.

 

[Makoto500]

Wouldn't a container of multiple 2-A structures needs to be bigger than those multiple 2-A structures, or else it wouldn't fit them in the first place?

It can be the same cardinality, let me use a finite example, We have Set A and Set B which both have 1,2,3,4,,,,40 as it's element, but Set A and Set B is not 41 and it's cardinality is only 40, so bassically we will only quantify the biggest elements as it's cardinality and as long as a set is not an urrelement or element to a another set which has an actual different element then it doesn't have a bigger cardinality.

(Usually this sets on a set is an element though, but I don't think the wiki assumes this things by default or atleast doesn't assumes that there are new elements.)

As far as i can see it's like set a contains set b and set b contains set c, and since set b has set c as it's greatest element then set b has the cardinality of set c and set a has the cardinality of set b.

Also other person, we don't automatically use hyper-space to quantify this. And I also don't want to get involved anymore so please stay me out of this and im now unfollowing.

 

[Firestorm808]

Jean Grey (Marvel Comics)

Jean Grey-Summers (born Jean Elaine Grey) is a fictional superhero appearing in American comic books published by Marvel Comics. The character has been known under the aliases Marvel Girl, Phoenix, and Dark Phoenix. Created by writer Stan Lee and artist Jack Kirby, the character first appeared...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The site also rates Dark Pheonix as

possibly Low Complex Multiverse level (The Dark Phoenix cosmically healed the M'kraan Crystal, aka the Nexus of Realities, which is a threat to all existence. Xavier stated that the Dark Phoenix was nearly the threat to existence the M'kraan disruption was.)

 

[Firestorm808]

Chaos Emeralds (Archie Comics)

The Chaos Emeralds are the most sought out power in the Sonic the Hedgehog comic series and its spin-offs published by Archie Comics. They are magical gemstones containing great power. They are the physical manifestations of the Chaos Force. Although they've been depicted in a variety of colors...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The site also rates 7 Archie Chaos Emeralds as

Low Complex Multiverse level (The Chaos Emeralds are physical manifestations of the Chaos Force, which binds all planes of existence and transcends the space-time of infinite universes. Can create a "Super Genesis Wave", which can destroy and recreate all of existence, which is comprised of infinite universes. Empowered Super Sonic to perform his feats, such as defeating Solaris and the Egg-Wily Machine X. An innumerable amount of Chaos Emeralds (enough to create an ocean, as well as scatter across the surface of a planet) were sealed into the Zone of Silence and fused into seven greater Chaos Emeralds, when the power equivalent to only fourteen was enough to threaten infinite realities)

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Jean Grey (Marvel Comics)

Jean Grey-Summers (born Jean Elaine Grey) is a fictional superhero appearing in American comic books published by Marvel Comics. The character has been known under the aliases Marvel Girl, Phoenix, and Dark Phoenix. Created by writer Stan Lee and artist Jack Kirby, the character first appeared...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The site also rates Dark Pheonix as

possibly Low Complex Multiverse level (The Dark Phoenix cosmically healed the M'kraan Crystal, aka the Nexus of Realities, which is a threat to all existence. Xavier stated that the Dark Phoenix was nearly the threat to existence the M'kraan disruption was.)

marvel has actual quotes about 5-6 D realms. It doesn`t count

 

[Firestorm808]

marvel has actual quotes about 5-6 D realms. It doesn`t count

Do we have scans that confirm that the Nexus falls under that description? That would be important to add to the justification.

 

[Antvasima]

So can somebody write a tally regarding which staff members that think what here please?

 

[Eficiente]

Jean Grey (Marvel Comics)

Jean Grey-Summers (born Jean Elaine Grey) is a fictional superhero appearing in American comic books published by Marvel Comics. The character has been known under the aliases Marvel Girl, Phoenix, and Dark Phoenix. Created by writer Stan Lee and artist Jack Kirby, the character first appeared...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The site also rates Dark Pheonix as

possibly Low Complex Multiverse level (The Dark Phoenix cosmically healed the M'kraan Crystal, aka the Nexus of Realities, which is a threat to all existence. Xavier stated that the Dark Phoenix was nearly the threat to existence the M'kraan disruption was.)

I'm pretty sure that's due to the Marvel multiverse being at that level, comicbook profiles may suck when elaborating why high tier characters are at the level they are and are dependent on other people having the real, more concrete reasons.

Chaos Emeralds (Archie Comics)

The Chaos Emeralds are the most sought out power in the Sonic the Hedgehog comic series and its spin-offs published by Archie Comics. They are magical gemstones containing great power. They are the physical manifestations of the Chaos Force. Although they've been depicted in a variety of colors...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The site also rates 7 Archie Chaos Emeralds as

Low Complex Multiverse level (The Chaos Emeralds are physical manifestations of the Chaos Force, which binds all planes of existence and transcends the space-time of infinite universes. Can create a "Super Genesis Wave", which can destroy and recreate all of existence, which is comprised of infinite universes. Empowered Super Sonic to perform his feats, such as defeating Solaris and the Egg-Wily Machine X. An innumerable amount of Chaos Emeralds (enough to create an ocean, as well as scatter across the surface of a planet) were sealed into the Zone of Silence and fused into seven greater Chaos Emeralds, when the power equivalent to only fourteen was enough to threaten infinite realities)

This is not accurate. Our last update to the tiering FQA was not long ago and how it affects profiles & verses needs to be managed by people who care about those verses.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

That video doesn’t mention 5D specifically like at all. Also higher dimensions include 4D, my guy. Not just strictly 5D

 

[Firestorm808]

@Eficiente

If that is the case for those two profiles, they will have to be revised accordingly down the line.

Referring back to my previous reply: https://vsbattles.com/threads/doom-tier-1-cosmology-proposal.139837/post-4989960

Can you give me an example of a realm on the site that isn't Low 1-C even though it contains multiple 2-A Structures?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Also, the Wikipedia article for it as it is a theoretical concept too.

Hyperspace - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Firestorm808]

So can somebody write a tally regarding which staff members that think what here please?

@Ultima_Reality says I have valid supporting evidence, but he will give his official reply when he is available.

 

[Eficiente]

Can you give me an example of a realm on the site that isn't Low 1-C even though it contains multiple 2-A Structures?

I don't know any myself.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

@Eficiente

If that is the case for those two profiles, they will have to be revised accordingly down the line.

Referring back to my previous reply: https://vsbattles.com/threads/doom-tier-1-cosmology-proposal.139837/post-4989960

Can you give me an example of a realm on the site that isn't Low 1-C even though it contains multiple 2-A Structures?

To being fair, there isn’t a lot of examples and I don’t think it is a good idea to go off solely by examples as it relies on the context of the evidence as well as other things

 

[Firestorm808]

The reason I ask for examples is to understand if there is a precedent to this situation. You would think this kind of structure is not uncommon.

Take, for example, Arceus:

Davoth and Arceus both lived in a plane larger than the multiple 2-A structures they created.
Davoth and Arceus both have their created 2-A realms as a part of their being, meaning their existence is superior to the 2-A 4-D part of the verse, thus it should qualify as superior enough to 4-D to qualify as Low 1-C.

"It should also be noted that, even in our FAQ's section of the sites Tiering System page, we note that anything that is superior in nature to that of 4D space-time should be considered Low 1-C."

Per the Ultima for the Arceus thread: "There is no such thing as being "countably infinitely larger" than the whole of a real coordinate space. For instance, if you are a 4-dimensional object (existing in a field defined over the reals), you either are smaller than R^4 or the same size as it. By definition, you can't be a 4-dimensional object and be larger than that simultaneously."

 

[HammerStrikes219]

The reason I ask for examples is to understand if there is a precedent to this situation. You would think this kind of structure is not uncommon.

Take, for example, Arceus:

Davoth and Arceus both lived in a plane larger than the multiple 2-A structures they created.
Davoth and Arceus both have their created 2-A realms as a part of their being, meaning their existence is superior to the 2-A 4-D part of the verse, thus it should qualify as superior enough to 4-D to qualify as Low 1-C.

"It should also be noted that, even in our FAQ's section of the sites Tiering System page, we note that anything that is superior in nature to that of 4D space-time should be considered Low 1-C."

Per the Ultima for the Arceus thread: "There is no such thing as being "countably infinitely larger" than the whole of a real coordinate space. For instance, if you are a 4-dimensional object (existing in a field defined over the reals), you either are smaller than R^4 or the same size as it. By definition, you can't be a 4-dimensional object and be larger than that simultaneously."

Also mention this part:

“A: As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is qualitatively superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor.”

 

[Eficiente]

"It should also be noted that, even in our FAQ's section of the sites Tiering System page, we note that anything that is superior in nature to that of 4D space-time should be considered Low 1-C."

It refers to qualitatively superior as the thing that matters, otherwise it talks about what not to grab (statements of transcendence) to make things more important than how they really are.

Per the Ultima for the Arceus thread: "There is no such thing as being "countably infinitely larger" than the whole of a real coordinate space. For instance, if you are a 4-dimensional object (existing in a field defined over the reals), you either are smaller than R^4 or the same size as it. By definition, you can't be a 4-dimensional object and be larger than that simultaneously."

I don't know what is this saying in this context, I think that's about degrees of AP in 2-A. Could you deconstruct the meaning of it in a patient way?

 

[Hellscream]

That video doesn’t mention 5D specifically like at all. Also higher dimensions include 4D, my guy. Not just strictly 5D

? did you watch the video or?
watch it again pls