The Only Thing They Fear Is... You - DOOM Revisions (Part 3)

[Spicy78]

And? That doesn't change the fact that Hell's accepted to be 5-D at best. The Thought robot is an extension of the Monitor Mind from DC, yet they're still several layers of reality far apart from one another.

brother, in monitor-mind the overvoid's page (alongside the source and the light of creation) it's literally stated the latter to be a part of the presence several times and they are the same tier LMFAOOO

the presence is the essence that unites those three characters and the four are the same tier due to it. davoth's essence is not at a higher realm than hell's, their essence are the exact same, they share the same essence, with hell being a mere aspect of davoth, like the monitor-mind the overvoid, the source and the light of creation are to the presence

 

[Spicy78]

For the lifting strength, just being 5D is meaningless since you can calculate volume and mass even with higher dimensional objects. Immeasurable means lifting masses larger than a 3D universe with higher dimensional axis. A 5D cube wouldn't give you immeasurable LS, but an infinite 5D cube would.

the life sphere isn't just a 5d ball, it contains a 5d structure with infinite universes in it

 

[Theglassman12]

@Spicy78 What part of the presence has anything to do with my example of cosmic armor and the monitor mind? Cosmic Armor's page is described as an extension of the monitor mind but the latter is far superior to it in everyway shape or form, so this logic of "it's an extension of Davoth, therefore it has to be the same tier" logic doesn't apply here.

 

[SYPHe5D]

Why are we bringing up other verses into this? Pretty sure this is just about doom.

 

[Theglassman12]

@SYPHe5D I'm bringing up a comparison on why "being an extension of something" isn't by default the same level, especially when 2 threads ago, Hell was accepted as being 5-D at best where Davoth's 6-D now.

 

[Spicy78]

What part of the presence has anything to do with my example of cosmic armor and the monitor mind? Cosmic Armor's page is described as an extension of the monitor mind but the latter is far superior to it in everyway shape or form, so this logic of "it's an extension of Davoth, therefore it has to be the same tier" logic doesn't apply here.

it has to do with the fact that it is a counterexample of...

My DC example is telling you why that wouldn't be enough by the standards on the site

...^this, what you've stated. you've stated that "being an extension of something ≠ being the same tier as that something because look at this example! you need proof!", and i've brought you that isn't always the case

if the monitor mind is tiers beyond the cosmic armor, that's great, but it is like that because the original material states so

so, if you want to make either a statement for either "a being an extension of b means a = b" or "a being an extension of b doesn't mean a = b", you have to prove it. you've been repeating that "a being an extension of b doesn't mean a = b" as an argument. you're literally repeating your thesis over and over again as an argument, and when you're not, you're bringing other verses up into the discussion

 

[Theglassman12]

"This isn't always the case" doesn't automatically mean that it by default scales. The fact that it's not always the case means that we don't assume the highest end interpretations, especially when Hell is not even on the same level as Davoth in the first place.

 

[Spicy78]

"This isn't always the case" doesn't automatically mean that it by default scales. The fact that it's not always the case means that we don't assume the highest end interpretations, especially when Hell is not even on the same level as Davoth in the first place.

do you have any proof that davoth's essence transcends hell's?

 

[Theglassman12]

The fact that Davoth in the first place is already 1-C via void extension is all the proof I need, and again, if you want to prove that this somehow would be layered hax for hell, you're arguing that Davoth's hax is lower dimensional to begin with, so either this isn't layered hax and Davoth's abilities are 6-D, or it is and Davoth is only 6-D physically with 5-D hax.

 

[SYPHe5D]

Isn’t this the same thing as being an avatar of a certain aspect or a being ? , we don’t always assume the avatar scales the same way as true entity itself, which is why we have profiles treat those as such.Correct me if I’m wrong of course.

 

[Theglassman12]

We don't unless we have some proof suggesting otherwise. Characters like Alvis or Darkseid has avatars that aren't on par with their true state, whether it's through feats or just author statements saying they're not on the same level, so we assume the same unless proven otherwise.

 

[Spicy78]

The fact that Davoth in the first place is already 1-C via void extension is all the proof I need

what...? the void is a 6d construct that he himself created. how would he not scale to 6d then? how would that be of any relevance for your argument?

and again, if you want to prove that this somehow would be layered hax for hell, you're arguing that Davoth's hax is lower dimensional to begin with, so either this isn't layered hax and Davoth's abilities are 6-D, or it is and Davoth is only 6-D physically with 5-D hax.

actually, looking at the essence hax page, it seems like it's the former, as davoth's essence is stated to transcend the entire cosmology

i concede the argument, but the fact that this proof was brought up by a guy that formerly was in favour of the layered hax means that you didn't even read the pages, you were just arguing against the op out of spite

 

[Spicy78]

Isn’t this the same thing as being an avatar of a certain aspect or a being ? , we don’t always assume the avatar scales the same way as true entity itself, which is why we have profiles treat those as such.Correct me if I’m wrong of course.

this is more like a smurf avatar whose physical existance exists below the real character, but has the hax potency of the real character (or at least it was what i was arguing for, now it's like the real character completely transcending their avatar)

 

[Theglassman12]

Did you like.... not read wtf I just said? I literally said he is already 1-C, not that he's not.

Cool, so basically more proof this wouldn't even be layered hax then. Also no this isn't out of spite, stop poisoning the well, the argument is terribly flawed from the first place with the kahn upscaling, and I even said in my first post that I see 1 layer of essence has for Doomguy destroying davoth's essence. So maybe pay attention to what I said instead of putting words into my mouth. If I wanted to argue out of spite I would've flat out said no layers period for Doom.

 

[Spicy78]

Did you like.... not read wtf I just said? I literally said he is already 1-C, not that he's not.

i know, but as i said previously, why would that be important for your argument? because hell couldn't scale to davoth's abilities/hax due to being low 1-c?

let me tell you something... smurfs... exist. that was what the entire argument was about. there's plenty characters with their physical existence being a certain tier but their hax being beyond that tier. you needed proof that hell's essence ≠ davoth's essence. you were just repeating "davoth is 1-c, hell is low 1-c" as if smurfs didn't exist

Cool, so basically more proof this wouldn't even be layered hax then. Also no this isn't out of spite, stop poisoning the well, the argument is terribly flawed from the first place with the kahn upscaling, and I even said in my first post that I see 1 layer of essence has for Doomguy destroying davoth's essence. So maybe pay attention to what I said instead of putting words into my mouth. If I wanted to argue out of spite I would've flat out said no layers period for Doom.

again, you weren't proving that hell wasn't a smurf. if you repeat a thesis without proving anything, it's no surprise that people consider you to be arguing out of spite

also, no "more proof", ACTUAL proof that hell isn't a smurf

 

[Spicy78]

the Icon of Sin isn’t on the same dimensional level as Davoth so this wouldn’t even be layers as it’s just a Smurf hax screwing him over

And Hell is 5-D, not 6-D

And Davoth is labeled as 6-D on his page, so again either his abilities are 6-D as well

this "smaller 6th dimensional structure" was accepted to being 5-D

And? That doesn't change the fact that Hell's accepted to be 5-D at best

Hell is not even on the same level as Davoth in the first place

he is already 1-C

literally ALMOST ALL of your arguments in this thread were stating that "davoth 1-c > hell low 1-c". not a single scan that debunks the possibility that hell is a smurf in sight. i had to bring that up. the rest of the arguments are bringing DC and xenoblade chronicles into the equation

but anyway, i still agree with you, so let's be friends i guess?

 

[Theglassman12]

sure I guess.

 

[Spicy78]

yay

 

[ShionAH]

bump

 

[Planck69]

Not at all seeing 6-D or Immeasurable LS. Neutral on the rest.

 

[ShionAH]

Immeasurable LS

HOW? How in the heck is a 6 Dimensional Construct that is also bigger than Hell not Immesurable??

 

[Planck69]

HOW? How in the heck is a 6 Dimensional Construct that is also bigger than Hell not Immesurable??

The Life Sphere in itself isn't infinitely large unless I'm massively missing something in that scene. And like Qawd said, a structure being higher-dimensional isn't automatically Immeasurable. It'd have to be significantly sized in said dimensions in order for that to be true.

 

[ShionAH]

The Life Sphere in itself isn't infinitely large unless I'm massively missing something in that scene

Life Sphere is Davoths Essence, and Hell (the entire damn thing) is literally just a small part of Davoths Essence...

This is literally already accepted that Davoth's Essence is the thing that has HDE/Hell Extension statement apply

 

[Planck69]

Life Sphere is Davoths Essence, and Hell (the entire damn thing) is literally just a small part of Davoth...

This is literally already accepted

Unless your arguing the abstract power that can be sealed into a football sized sphere is that large and like, compressed or something, I'm unsure what this is supposed to even prove.

Hell being an extension of Davoth neither makes the latter higher-dimensional nor does it make his Essence that large. Unless I'm misunderstanding, this Essence seems to be the concept of an individual, which doesn't mean it has size in the conventional sense to begin with.

All that is to say, just having a larger extension of one's self doesn't make your true self that large. This is me going off of the information presented here so that thread's conclusion may just be something I disagree with as well.

 

[ShionAH]

Unless your arguing the abstract power that can be sealed into a football sized sphere is that large and like, compressed or something

You want the game devs to make it as big as an entire infinite multiverse?

Hell being an extension of Davoth neither makes the latter higher-dimensional nor does it make his Essence that large. Unless I'm misunderstanding, this Essence seems to be the concept of an individual, which doesn't mean it has size in the conventional sense to begin with.

Davoth's Essence is completely beyond the entire Doom Cosmology, with Hell, Urdak and etc. being a simple extension of his Essence.

So Davoths Essence governs and all of these stuff are just simple extensions of him, so DE HAS to be bigger.

It is really simple really, Davoths Essence = (Hell + Urdak + Whatever Whatever) which means Davoths Essence > Hell

 

[Spicy78]

Not at all seeing 6-D or Immeasurable LS. Neutral on the rest.

hell itself is the byproduct of davoth's essence, and so, when doomguy strips away the latter's essence (life sphere) and carries it with him, it would be like a character lifting a ball that contains a planet in it in the most literal sense possible

 

[ShionAH]

sure I guess.

I disagree with as well.

Can I get the last opinion on Immesurable? I guess the 3 layers are rejected for now, but what about the Imme LS?

hell itself is the byproduct of davoth's essence, and so, when doomguy strips away the latter's essence (life sphere) and carries it with him, it would be like a character lifting a ball that contains a planet in it in the most literal sense possible

Davoth's Essence is completely beyond the entire Doom Cosmology, with Hell, Urdak and etc. being a simple extension of his Essence.

So Davoths Essence governs and all of these stuff are just simple extensions of him, so DE HAS to be bigger.

It is really simple really, Davoths Essence = (Hell + Urdak + Whatever Whatever) which means Davoths Essence > Hell

 

[Theglassman12]

Not exactly sure about the whole “higher dimensional object” type feats qualifying for immeasurable LS. I recall there was a DC feat where someone was a living universe, but was the size of a person, and that got rejected in terms of qualifying for universal LS because of the size and whatnot. You should ask some other staff.

 

[ShionAH]

You should ask some other staff.

Alright, fair. @ActuallySpaceMan42 said he wanted to give his opinions so I guess we can wait for him. You could ping him if you'd like.

 

[Theglassman12]

@ActuallySpaceMan42 your input here would be appreciated

 

[Hellscream]

Im iffy about the layers, but agree with the rest

Edit: Doomguy should have a layer actually, considering that he stomped davoth.
The other layers, would only work if essence was baseline 6D

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

My thoughts are pretty much the same as Planck's.

 

[ShionAH]

My thoughts are pretty much the same as Planck's.

Whats your stance on Immesurable LS? Thats the only thing that has yet to be added.

 

[ShionAH]

bump

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Doom Guy can physically carry Life Sphere of Davoth, Hell is a mere part of Davoth's Essence and Essence contains Space-Time of beings

Is there any evidence that the weight or size of a Life Sphere corresponds to the being it belongs to? Also are there any anti-feats? Has anyone been able to just casually lift up this Life Sphere before? Additionally, if the Life Sphere represents Davoth's essence, has there been any indication that Hell disappeared, suggesting that Hell might be contained within the Life Sphere or something similar?

 

[Hellscream]

Is there any evidence that the weight or size of a Life Sphere corresponds to the being it belongs to? Also are there any anti-feats? Has anyone been able to just casually lift up this Life Sphere before? Additionally, if the Life Sphere represents Davoth's essence, has there been any indication that Hell disappeared, suggesting that Hell might be contained within the Life Sphere or something similar?

Yes, as soon as davoth was killed, (the life sphere was destroyed) the entirety of hell disappeared.

And no one has been able to move / touch the life sphere outside of the Father i believe, who is an existence on the level of Davoth