• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

DOOM - Tier 1 Cosmology Proposal

Status
Not open for further replies.
Firestorm808 said:
Do we have previous examples of the case of lower dimensionality? I don't recall verses that have that sort of structure.
Click to expand...
  • In the MCU thanks to that awful Loki show the outside of the timeline (The energy line), and infinite timelines, is space with floating rocky islands. If someone were to manipulate space or rocks there as thicc as 1 moment in a timeline then that wouldn't be universal. The timelines there are the big complex structures, everything else around them is not.
    • Dr. Strange Multiverse of Madness has a place that's the space between universes, and it's just another reality of unknown size.
  • In Gravity Falls the Nightmare Realm is a realm between dimensions, and it's pretty much another universe.
  • In Kirby Another Dimension seems to be the space between dimensions, and it's a tunnel with many regular universes in it.
 
Eficiente said:
  • In the MCU thanks to that awful Loki show the outside of the timeline (The energy line), and infinite timelines, is space with floating rocky islands. If someone were to manipulate space or rocks there as thicc as 1 moment in a timeline then that wouldn't be universal. The timelines there are the big complex structures, everything else around them is not.
    • Dr. Strange Multiverse of Madness has a place that's the space between universes, and it's just another reality of unknown size.
  • In Gravity Falls the Nightmare Realm is a realm between dimensions, and it's pretty much another universe.
  • In Kirby Another Dimension seems to be the space between dimensions, and it's a tunnel with many regular universes in it.
Click to expand...
What does that have to do with the dimensionality in doom tho?
 
Eficiente said:
  • In the MCU thanks to that awful Loki show the outside of the timeline (The energy line), and infinite timelines, is space with floating rocky islands. If someone were to manipulate space or rocks there as thicc as 1 moment in a timeline then that wouldn't be universal. The timelines there are the big complex structures, everything else around them is not.
Click to expand...
According to the show, He Who Remains found an asteroid at the end of time and built his residence on it. The Citadel of Time isn't located outside the 4-D Realm. The closest to being outside the 4-D realm would be the Nexus of all realities, but even then, that is only one 2-A structure.
Eficiente said:
  • Dr. Strange Multiverse of Madness has a place that's the space between universes, and it's just another reality of unknown size.
Click to expand...
I don't see why a realm located between timelines is being equated to a realm that contains multiple 2-A structures.
Eficiente said:
  • In Gravity Falls the Nightmare Realm is a realm between dimensions, and it's pretty much another universe.
Click to expand...
Same question as above.
Eficiente said:
  • In Kirby Another Dimension seems to be the space between dimensions, and it's a tunnel with many regular universes in it.
Click to expand...
Same question as above.

Can you give me an example of a realm that isn't Low 1-C even though it contains multiple 2-A Structures?
 
Last edited:
Firestorm808 said:
I can't say I follow your explanation. If you have multiple infinite-sized 4-D realms, how can they fit in another 4-D realm if it's not 5-D?

Can you give an example of this being applied on the site? I don't recall verses like that.
Click to expand...
In set theory we have a thing called bijection, which happens when a different set have the same elements of another set.

Adding a "finite bijected set" will indeed create a bigger element but adding infinite bijected set will only lead to a already mapped element as both not only have a established bijection but it also pretty much holds all possible numbers on the domain of function (think of it as it's concept) to create a new non-mapped element.

So for an infinite 4d thing here to be 5d you need it to atleast create an a=b amount of this infinite realms.

Anyways I disagree, for reasons above.
 
Cat said:
In set theory we have a thing called bijection, which happens when a different set have the same elements of another set.

Adding a "finite bijected set" will indeed create a bigger element but adding infinite bijected set will only lead to a already mapped element as both not only have a established bijection but it also pretty much holds all possible numbers on the domain of function (think of it as it's concept) to create a new non-mapped element.

So for an infinite 4d thing here to be 5d you need it to atleast create an a=b amount of this infinite realms.

Anyways I disagree, for reasons above.
Click to expand...
Can you translate that into an example on the site? Can you give me an example of a realm that isn't Low 1-C even though it contains multiple 2-A Structures?
 
Firestorm808 said:
Can you translate that into an example on the site? Can you give me an example of a realm that isn't Low 1-C even though it contains multiple 2-A Structures?
Click to expand...
I'm not that familiar with 2-A characters, but I did find this on FAQ:

A: In spite of what our intuitions may tell us, destroying or fully affecting multiple infinite-sized multiverses is in fact not better than doing the same to a single infinite multiverse, and thus, not above the "baseline" for 2-A

Which isn't really containing, but this should tell that the wiki treats that adding infinities doesn't create a bigger infinity.
 
Cat said:
I'm not that familiar with 2-A characters, but I did find this on FAQ:

A: In spite of what our intuitions may tell us, destroying or fully affecting multiple infinite-sized multiverses is in fact not better than doing the same to a single infinite multiverse, and thus, not above the "baseline" for 2-A

Which isn't really containing, but this should tell that the wiki treats that adding infinities doesn't create a bigger infinity.
Click to expand...
That makes no sense considering how scaling works, what's the difference between destroying a single infinite sized universe, and an infinite amount of them?
according to that scaling both should be the same, which is definetly not the case.
 
Hellscream said:
Isn't a construct that can contain 2-A structures called a hyperspace, which is 5-D?
Click to expand...
Hyperspace is just wormholes that lead to higher dimension, hyper-space is also used on M-theory as far as i know, But i haven't seen containing 2-A structures=5d in hyperspace.
(You can send me a link that explains this though if you have one.)
Hellscream said:
That makes no sense considering how scaling works, what's the difference between destroying a single infinite sized universe, and an infinite amount of them?
according to that scaling both should be the same, which is definetly not the case.
Click to expand...
Wdym? Are you saying that infinite + infinite = bigger infinite?
 
Cat said:
Hyperspace is just wormholes that lead to higher dimension, hyper-space is also used on M-theory as far as i know, But i haven't seen containing 2-A structures=5d in hyperspace.
(You can send me a link that explains this though if you have one.)

Wdym? Are you saying that infinite + infinite = bigger infinite?
Click to expand...
 
Cat said:
A: In spite of what our intuitions may tell us, destroying or fully affecting multiple infinite-sized multiverses is in fact not better than doing the same to a single infinite multiverse, and thus, not above the "baseline" for 2-A
Click to expand...
Destroying multiple 2-A structures and being dimensionally larger than multiple 2-A structures are two different things.
 
Cat said:
How does that lead to the conclusion that the realm is bigger?

Was there a infinitesimal feat here?
Click to expand...
I just told you that a realm containting multiple 2-A structures is called a hyperspace, and sent a short vid explaining what it is
In this case, it most definetly is 5-D if not higher
 
Firestorm808 said:
Wouldn't a container of multiple 2-A structures needs to be bigger than those multiple 2-A structures, or else it wouldn't fit them in the first place?
Click to expand...
It can be the same cardinality, let me use a finite example, We have Set A and Set B which both have 1,2,3,4,,,,40 as it's element, but Set A and Set B is not 41 and it's cardinality is only 40, so bassically we will only quantify the biggest elements as it's cardinality and as long as a set is not an urrelement or element to a another set which has an actual different element then it doesn't have a bigger cardinality.

(Usually this sets on a set is an element though, but I don't think the wiki assumes this things by default or atleast doesn't assumes that there are new elements.)

As far as i can see it's like set a contains set b and set b contains set c, and since set b has set c as it's greatest element then set b has the cardinality of set c and set a has the cardinality of set b.

Also other person, we don't automatically use hyper-space to quantify this. And I also don't want to get involved anymore so please stay me out of this and im now unfollowing.
 
Last edited:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Jean Grey (Marvel Comics)

Jean Grey-Summers (born Jean Elaine Grey) is a fictional superhero appearing in American comic books published by Marvel Comics. The character has been known under the aliases Marvel Girl, Phoenix, and Dark Phoenix. Created by writer Stan Lee and artist Jack Kirby, the character first appeared...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

The site also rates Dark Pheonix as

possibly Low Complex Multiverse level (The Dark Phoenix cosmically healed the M'kraan Crystal, aka the Nexus of Realities, which is a threat to all existence. Xavier stated that the Dark Phoenix was nearly the threat to existence the M'kraan disruption was.)
 
Last edited:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Chaos Emeralds (Archie Comics)

The Ancient Walkers[1] This is the most potent form of pure energy in all the universe! But most important of all... Its MINE!Prime Dr. Robotnik[2] The Chaos Emeralds are the most sought out power in the Sonic the Hedgehog comic series and its spin-offs published by Archie Comics. They are...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

The site also rates 7 Archie Chaos Emeralds as

Low Complex Multiverse level (The Chaos Emeralds are physical manifestations of the Chaos Force, which binds all planes of existence and transcends the space-time of infinite universes. Can create a "Super Genesis Wave", which can destroy and recreate all of existence, which is comprised of infinite universes. Empowered Super Sonic to perform his feats, such as defeating Solaris and the Egg-Wily Machine X. An innumerable amount of Chaos Emeralds (enough to create an ocean, as well as scatter across the surface of a planet) were sealed into the Zone of Silence and fused into seven greater Chaos Emeralds, when the power equivalent to only fourteen was enough to threaten infinite realities)
 
Firestorm808 said:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Jean Grey (Marvel Comics)

Jean Grey-Summers (born Jean Elaine Grey) is a fictional superhero appearing in American comic books published by Marvel Comics. The character has been known under the aliases Marvel Girl, Phoenix, and Dark Phoenix. Created by writer Stan Lee and artist Jack Kirby, the character first appeared...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

The site also rates Dark Pheonix as

possibly Low Complex Multiverse level (The Dark Phoenix cosmically healed the M'kraan Crystal, aka the Nexus of Realities, which is a threat to all existence. Xavier stated that the Dark Phoenix was nearly the threat to existence the M'kraan disruption was.)
Click to expand...
marvel has actual quotes about 5-6 D realms. It doesn`t count
 
So can somebody write a tally regarding which staff members that think what here please?
 
Firestorm808 said:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Jean Grey (Marvel Comics)

Jean Grey-Summers (born Jean Elaine Grey) is a fictional superhero appearing in American comic books published by Marvel Comics. The character has been known under the aliases Marvel Girl, Phoenix, and Dark Phoenix. Created by writer Stan Lee and artist Jack Kirby, the character first appeared...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

The site also rates Dark Pheonix as

possibly Low Complex Multiverse level (The Dark Phoenix cosmically healed the M'kraan Crystal, aka the Nexus of Realities, which is a threat to all existence. Xavier stated that the Dark Phoenix was nearly the threat to existence the M'kraan disruption was.)
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure that's due to the Marvel multiverse being at that level, comicbook profiles may suck when elaborating why high tier characters are at the level they are and are dependent on other people having the real, more concrete reasons.
Firestorm808 said:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Chaos Emeralds (Archie Comics)

The Ancient Walkers[1] This is the most potent form of pure energy in all the universe! But most important of all... Its MINE!Prime Dr. Robotnik[2] The Chaos Emeralds are the most sought out power in the Sonic the Hedgehog comic series and its spin-offs published by Archie Comics. They are...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

The site also rates 7 Archie Chaos Emeralds as

Low Complex Multiverse level (The Chaos Emeralds are physical manifestations of the Chaos Force, which binds all planes of existence and transcends the space-time of infinite universes. Can create a "Super Genesis Wave", which can destroy and recreate all of existence, which is comprised of infinite universes. Empowered Super Sonic to perform his feats, such as defeating Solaris and the Egg-Wily Machine X. An innumerable amount of Chaos Emeralds (enough to create an ocean, as well as scatter across the surface of a planet) were sealed into the Zone of Silence and fused into seven greater Chaos Emeralds, when the power equivalent to only fourteen was enough to threaten infinite realities)
Click to expand...
This is not accurate. Our last update to the tiering FQA was not long ago and how it affects profiles & verses needs to be managed by people who care about those verses.
 
Firestorm808 said:
@Eficiente

If that is the case for those two profiles, they will have to be revised accordingly down the line.

Referring back to my previous reply: https://vsbattles.com/threads/doom-tier-1-cosmology-proposal.139837/post-4989960

Can you give me an example of a realm on the site that isn't Low 1-C even though it contains multiple 2-A Structures?
Click to expand...
To being fair, there isn’t a lot of examples and I don’t think it is a good idea to go off solely by examples as it relies on the context of the evidence as well as other things
 
The reason I ask for examples is to understand if there is a precedent to this situation. You would think this kind of structure is not uncommon.

Take, for example, Arceus:

Davoth and Arceus both lived in a plane larger than the multiple 2-A structures they created.
Davoth and Arceus both have their created 2-A realms as a part of their being, meaning their existence is superior to the 2-A 4-D part of the verse, thus it should qualify as superior enough to 4-D to qualify as Low 1-C.

"It should also be noted that, even in our FAQ's section of the sites Tiering System page, we note that anything that is superior in nature to that of 4D space-time should be considered Low 1-C."

Per the Ultima for the Arceus thread: "There is no such thing as being "countably infinitely larger" than the whole of a real coordinate space. For instance, if you are a 4-dimensional object (existing in a field defined over the reals), you either are smaller than R^4 or the same size as it. By definition, you can't be a 4-dimensional object and be larger than that simultaneously."
 
Firestorm808 said:
The reason I ask for examples is to understand if there is a precedent to this situation. You would think this kind of structure is not uncommon.

Take, for example, Arceus:

Davoth and Arceus both lived in a plane larger than the multiple 2-A structures they created.
Davoth and Arceus both have their created 2-A realms as a part of their being, meaning their existence is superior to the 2-A 4-D part of the verse, thus it should qualify as superior enough to 4-D to qualify as Low 1-C.

"It should also be noted that, even in our FAQ's section of the sites Tiering System page, we note that anything that is superior in nature to that of 4D space-time should be considered Low 1-C."

Per the Ultima for the Arceus thread: "There is no such thing as being "countably infinitely larger" than the whole of a real coordinate space. For instance, if you are a 4-dimensional object (existing in a field defined over the reals), you either are smaller than R^4 or the same size as it. By definition, you can't be a 4-dimensional object and be larger than that simultaneously."
Click to expand...
Also mention this part:

“A: As said above, "transcending space and time" is a very vague statement by itself and can mean multiple things depending on the context in which it is made, as well as how this characteristic is portrayed in the first place. However, if it is specified that they "transcend space and time" in the sense that they exist on some higher level of reality that is qualitatively superior to a spacetime continuum in nature, then they should be put at Low 1-C, assuming the continuum in question is one comprised of four dimensions. The answer may vary depending on this factor.”
 
Firestorm808 said:
"It should also be noted that, even in our FAQ's section of the sites Tiering System page, we note that anything that is superior in nature to that of 4D space-time should be considered Low 1-C."
Click to expand...
It refers to qualitatively superior as the thing that matters, otherwise it talks about what not to grab (statements of transcendence) to make things more important than how they really are.
Firestorm808 said:
Per the Ultima for the Arceus thread: "There is no such thing as being "countably infinitely larger" than the whole of a real coordinate space. For instance, if you are a 4-dimensional object (existing in a field defined over the reals), you either are smaller than R^4 or the same size as it. By definition, you can't be a 4-dimensional object and be larger than that simultaneously."
Click to expand...
I don't know what is this saying in this context, I think that's about degrees of AP in 2-A. Could you deconstruct the meaning of it in a patient way?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

ShionAH
  • Locked
The Only Thing They Fear Is... You - DOOM Revisions (Part 1)
2 3 4
Replies
158
Views
12K
Theglassman12
Theglassman12
TyphonEX
More DOOM upgrades
Replies
11
Views
2K
Theglassman12
Theglassman12
ShionAH
The Only Thing They Fear Is... You - DOOM Revisions (Part 3)
2
Replies
75
Views
5K
Hellscream
Hellscream
ShionAH
The Only Thing They Fear Is... You - DOOM Revisions (Part 2)
2
Replies
73
Views
5K
ShionAH
ShionAH
Spicy78
She Rippin' on my Guts until I Tear - A DOOM Upgrade/Revision CRT
Replies
27
Views
3K
Spicy78
Spicy78
Back
Top