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Doom Eternal - The Ancient Gods - Part Two CRT (Spoilers Ahead)

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Shmooply said:
but his weapons dont scale to him right
Click to expand...
I believe that's been discussed. Iirc people have decided that the Super Shotgun will scale to him since he tried to use it on Davoth or something like that. I personally think the BFG would also scale since it's his most powerful weapon in his arsenal (kinda weird for the Super Shotgun to scale but not superior weapons).
 
I think I see one dent on his armor that looks like a bullet hole other than that it’s mostly slices
 
Tyler McVicker is supposed to release a 'deep lore' interview with Hugo 'soon', so we have that to look forward to.

The upgrade is based on Davoth. Lore summary below:
  • Davoth can create new realities simply by lingering in the void, but can use his unrivaled power to consciously create realms, and mold species into existence from the void. With the first realm he consciously created being Jekkad.
  • Davoth created Primevals, immensely powerful gods, to steward realms and watch over them. The strength of Primevals was such that a realm can only contain one of them. Primevals do not sustain realms and the realms can exist without them, but their strength is what threatens the existence of realms.
  • One of the Primevals is Vega who was watching over Urdak, inhabited by the Maykrs who were originally an AI race with hivemind omniscience about the infinite possibilities exponentially generated by timelines. The Maykrs concluded that Davoth is an eventual threat to all creation, and records claims that Davoth have absorbed gods to grow his own power. So the Maykrs and Vega conspired to betray Davoth and seal Jekkad.
  • Vega managed to kill Davoth's body by extracting his life sphere from his chest, but Vega refused to obliterate Davoth's essence due to sentimental reasons. Davoth's life sphere was stored, with expectation that Davoth will be reduced to observing and whispering.
  • Gods are weaker without a physical form, yet they may still influence the realms. Davoth, filled with hatred, was able to bend all Jekkad utterly to his will and transform it into Hell; an absolute extension of his power, unlimited by the boundaries of space, time, or dimension, and functioning as a living entity possessing certain undeniable sentience, and capable of absorbing entire realms.
  • Davoth created the Doom Slayer and predestined him to destroy the Maykrs. Davoth using his whispers mind controlled the Khan Maykr into creating a machine powered by remnants of his body, and mind controlled the Seraphim into using the machine to empower the Doom Slayer.
  • The Doom Slayer turned out to be uncontrollable and has focused on slaughtering demons for eons, so Davoth sealed him hoping that he'll never go out. Cue Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal. The Doom Slayer eventually felt ready to face the Dark Lord as he grew in power.
  • Since the Dark Lord's power exists in the form of Hell, destroying Davoth's life sphere at this point will merely make it impossible for Davoth to reincarnate in physical form while he operates as Hell. Knowing this, the Doom Slayer decided to reincarnate Davoth into physical form to destroy both his body and soul for good.
  • Gods are at their full power when they have a physical form, and it is stated that should Davoth ever be reincarnated in physical form only another Primeval, or something more powerful, could slay him.
  • Davoth, having a honor code (such as refusing to have blood spilled in the Luminarium), knew that the Doom Slayer will inevitably find and fight him, so he staked the fate of all of existence on a duel with him.
  • Davoth states "As all things were made by my hand, so shall they be unmade. Starting with you.". Stating that his intent is to use the same unrivaled power he created a myriad of dimensions with in order to delete them.
  • Davoth is capable of using his powers to bless the weapons of demons to make them capable of obliterating both body and soul.
Click to expand...

In short, Davoth has Tier 2 power, and he is stated to be capable of using it in different ways, including by unmaking entire realms/universes/dimensions by his hands just like it was made by his hands. And it is stated that only powerful gods, whose strength is such that a realm cannot handle multiple of them, is capable of slaying Davoth.
Davoth also scales to Hell since it is merely an extension of his full power. Hell is a Tier 2 entity (and has been argued to be Tier 1-C) under Davoth's control, and it is capable of absorbing entire realms/universes/dimensions, and will end all of creation if it is unsealed.

Weekly's argument is extremely passive and undetailed, and its constant repetition lead to the discussion going around in circles.
It can be summarized as: "There is no sufficient evidence that Davoth is capable of channeling his power into attacks or destruction". It was also suggested that Davoth having an army is an anti-feat.
 
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Keep in mind the army bit isn't really relevant, a bunch of villains across fiction have armies but don't need them. Keep in mind, there's nothing supporting the notion that he needs this army to destroy everything, he just has the army.
 
Davoth said he would unmake all things just has he made them....weekly has yet to provide good reasons as to why that doesn’t mean he’s a tier 2.
 
Hey, guys. I just found out some very juicy information about Universal Energies.

Basically, Hell Energy is the thing that fuels all Hell Magic. It's what gets used for it. It's strictly separate from Wraith and Argent, and it's only a component of the latter.

Wraith Energy is the "universal energy" for the Sentinels. Hell Energy/Hell Essence is the universal energy for Hell. Hell is an extension of Davoth's power. Meaning, his power falls under a universal energy source, and DOES solidly qualify to scale to his other abilities.
 
Could you post the source for that please? Just so we can verify.
 
In the Story of The Sentinels, it is said that Hell Energy (also known as The Essence) powers Hell.


https://doom.fandom.com/wiki/Codex/Story_of_the_Sentinels#Part_XI "The truth had been uncovered, that all beings who found their end by the demonic horde would become a vassal of the Hellscape, their flesh in time twisted into the very demons we fight, their souls extracted to create the Essence that powers their world...and ours."

This essence is also the essence of the demons, and they can conjure up this essence as dark magic.
"Unlike enemies of the past we could not contain the demons emergent from the Dark Realm. Their weaponry was not conjured from machined steel but from the essence of their very being. A dark magic not known to us in our many conquests - had we grown overconfident, our victories serving to dull our blade as we drank in the glory of our expanding empire?"
https://doom.fandom.com/wiki/Codex/Story_of_the_Sentinels#Part_VI

Dark Magic/Hell Magic is also where the abilities (such as The Arch-vile) stem from.
"Forged from Hellfire, the Archvile is feared among lesser demons for its innate ability to channel and manipulate the unholy powers of Hell magic."
Essentially, Arch-Viles are specifically talented in Psychomancy, a specific usage of Hell Energy.
https://doom.fandom.com/wiki/Arch-vile/Doom_Eternal#In-Game_Description

Basically. Hell Energy is the main source of power of Hell and the beings that reside in it, and it is something that said beings can harness and manipulate. Additionally, it is what makes up Hell and it's inhabitants. It is their "Essence."
 
DTG499 said:
Davoth said he would unmake all things just has he made them....weekly has yet to provide good reasons as to why that doesn’t mean he’s a tier 2.
Click to expand...
he is still also not provided a reason as to how an army of 8C and low 7C are to destroy an inherently infinite time space(low 2-C) much less the 2-A multiverse which by all standards of logic is impossible
 
Axxtentacle said:
Hey, guys. I just found out some very juicy information about Universal Energies.

Basically, Hell Energy is the thing that fuels all Hell Magic. It's what gets used for it. It's strictly separate from Wraith and Argent, and it's only a component of the latter.

Wraith Energy is the "universal energy" for the Sentinels. Hell Energy/Hell Essence is the universal energy for Hell. Hell is an extension of Davoth's power. Meaning, his power falls under a universal energy source, and DOES solidly qualify to scale to his other abilities.
Click to expand...
Not without feats of destruction on par with the feats of creation it wouldnt, as per our creation feats page

vsbattles.fandom.com

Creation Feats

Creation feats are feats in which a character creates objects from nothing by means like Reality Warping or similar. This separates them from feats in which objects are created from already existing materials, which would be calculated by conventional methods, or feats that qualify for...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

"In order to apply to a character's capacity to harm other characters, that is their usual Attack Potency, their Creation has to be connected to their other abilities. For example, it can be reasoned that a mage which expends mana from its energy pool to make a city and then channels a similar or greater amount of mana into another attack can scale to its creation feat. However a character who can create objects without other ways of harming their opponents by using an equal amount of energy from their energy pool wouldn't be able to harness that power to hurt another character, and would fall under a light form of Environmental Destruction."

"Even though there is concrete evidence for pocket reality creations to qualify as an Attack Potency feat; it should not be assumed to scale to physical statistics without some notable scaling reasons. Examples include on screen demonstrations, examples of destruction, or information that the same pool of energy used to create said dimension can translate to the same amount of energy being used for other abilities including but not limited to physical strikes."

You would need to prove that they can channel the same amount of energy as their creation feats into their physical attacks
 
Sir_sun_man said:
i call foul here is the requirement form the creation feat page

"in order to apply to a character's capacity to harm other characters, that is their usual Attack Potency, their Creation has to be connected to their other abilities. For example, it can be reasoned that a mage which expends mana from its energy pool to make a city and then channels a similar or greater amount of mana into another attack can scale to its creation feat"
Click to expand...
Nice of you to leave out the part of that paragraph that explains what you need to actually qualify for scaling:

"However a character who can create objects without other ways of harming their opponents by using an equal amount of energy from their energy pool wouldn't be able to harness that power to hurt another character, and would fall under a light form of Environmental Destruction."
 
From what I've read so far, I'm still in the Tier 2 Davoth camp.

We have other verses with universe creation. Davoth has that and the willingness to destroy the universes in the same manner.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Din

Din... With her strong flaming arms, she cultivated the land and created the red earth.The Great Deku Tree telling the creation story of Hyrule Din is a minor but important recurring figure in The Legend of Zelda series. When nothing yet existed, Din and her sisters descended upon chaos and...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Attack Potency: At least Low Multiverse level (She and her sisters created the Downfall Timeline and the Adult Timeline, along with the universes inside said timelines), possibly Multiverse level (The amount of universes she and her sisters created ranges in the millions, with each one potentially having its own space-time)

vsbattles.fandom.com

Arceus

According to the legends of Sinnoh, this Pokémon emerged from an egg and shaped all there is in this world.Arceus' Pokédex entry in Pokémon SoulSilver It is described in mythology as the Pokémon that shaped the universe with its 1,000 arms.Arceus' Pokédex entry in Pokémon Diamond Arceus is a...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Attack Potency: At least Multiverse level, likely Multiverse level+ (Overpowered Palkia, Dialga, and Giratina, when one of them alone can stabilize space-time with just their breathing or heartbeat. It caused three universal space-time continuums, one being it's own and the other two being the ones that Palkia and Dialga embody, to shake, with the latter two being made to collide with each other, all as a result of stirring in its sleep. Effortlessly recreated a Dialga, Palkia, or Giratina without any plates just to satisfy/astound Ethan and Cynthia. Controls all the Pokémon reality, which is made from countless to infinite timelines and pocket realms. Created both the Creation Trio and Lake Trio, who created all universes along with the concepts in them. Superior to the trios at the same level it was before)
 
That's already assumed with a universal power source for verses.

Everything he does would come from this energy. It's what makes him and Hell itself powerful, as it's only an extension of his power.

The creation feats page even says so:
For example, it can be reasoned that a mage which expends mana from its energy pool to make a city and then channels a similar or greater amount of mana into another attack can scale to its creation feat.
Click to expand...


They've been shown to be able to harness and use this energy, which is a universal power source, for their attacks. The Dark Lord actually does state he is going to destroy everything, like i've already said and you have ignored. His attacks fall under this universal power source, as i've shown.

You keep repeating that they NEED a destruction feat on this level when we've proven that you don't. It's just one possible support, as the creation page itself says.

WeeklyBattles said:
Nice of you to leave out the part of that paragraph that explains what you need to actually qualify for scaling:

"However a character who can create objects without other ways of harming their opponents by using an equal amount of energy from their energy pool wouldn't be able to harness that power to hurt another character, and would fall under a light form of Environmental Destruction."
Click to expand...
He created a realm and now that we know how Hell Energy works, it's something that we know even weak entities are capable of doing, like Imps with their fireballs, Prowler's with their teleportation, etc, etc, etc.

The Dark Lord shows the capability of other abilities as well, as when he changes the battlefield in his boss fight.

Also, don't forget the argument you pushed the narrative for when you said that the Dark Lord implies he will destroy it the same way he created it, from this quote:

"Everything made by my hand will be unmade... Starting with YOU."

Which then follows into the boss fight, mainly the hardest faze.

Let me elaborate further on this point:

Me and Weekly had an extensive discussion about this on Discord, where he claimed that because Davoth made it over time, he had to destroy it overtime, and that got rid of all validity of tier 2. He additionally claimed that he needed an army and he is going to lead an army across all existence, which contradicts what Weekly said about the Dark Lord destroying it the same way he made it. At absolute worst, he created them one at a time. The condensed, re-written accurate lore is actually in the OP for you to read. Therefore meaning he will destroy them one at a time, but without proof for the "army" argument, I can dismiss it.


Overall, along with the fact that he gained back his full power when he gained physical form, I believe there's more than sufficient proof for him to at bare minimum get possibly 2-B, 2-A or whatever the actual rating will be.

I am okay with Oven's compromise still, though.
 
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Firestorm808 said:
From what I've read so far, I'm still in the Tier 2 Davoth camp.

We have other verses with universe creation. Davoth has that and the willingness to destroy the universes in the same manner.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Din

Din... With her strong flaming arms, she cultivated the land and created the red earth.The Great Deku Tree telling the creation story of Hyrule Din is a minor but important recurring figure in The Legend of Zelda series. When nothing yet existed, Din and her sisters descended upon chaos and...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Attack Potency: At least Low Multiverse level (She and her sisters created the Downfall Timeline and the Adult Timeline, along with the universes inside said timelines), possibly Multiverse level (The amount of universes she and her sisters created ranges in the millions, with each one potentially having its own space-time)

vsbattles.fandom.com

Arceus

According to the legends of Sinnoh, this Pokémon emerged from an egg and shaped all there is in this world.Arceus' Pokédex entry in Pokémon SoulSilver It is described in mythology as the Pokémon that shaped the universe with its 1,000 arms.Arceus' Pokédex entry in Pokémon Diamond Arceus is a...
vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Attack Potency: At least Multiverse level, likely Multiverse level+ (Overpowered Palkia, Dialga, and Giratina, when one of them alone can stabilize space-time with just their breathing or heartbeat. It caused three universal space-time continuums, one being it's own and the other two being the ones that Palkia and Dialga embody, to shake, with the latter two being made to collide with each other, all as a result of stirring in its sleep. Effortlessly recreated a Dialga, Palkia, or Giratina without any plates just to satisfy/astound Ethan and Cynthia. Controls all the Pokémon reality, which is made from countless to infinite timelines and pocket realms. Created both the Creation Trio and Lake Trio, who created all universes along with the concepts in them. Superior to the trios at the same level it was before)
Click to expand...
Dude, these characters have actual feats of tier 2 destruction alongside their creation feats, Davoth does not
 
Davoth created the universes by his hands, now he was going to destroy them by his hands. That's Tier 2 destruction.

What Tier 2 destruction feats do the Golden Goddesses have?
 
If God created the universe by his hands and was about to destroy it by his hands as well, but somebody killed him before he could go through with it, that doesn't disprove Tier 2.
 
Axxtentacle said:
That's already assumed with a universal power source for verses.

Everything he does would come from this energy. It's what makes him and Hell itself powerful, as it's only an extension of his power.
Click to expand...
Universal power feats are not a thing that auto-scales everything anymore, that standard was changed months ago.
Axxtentacle said:
The creation feats page even says so:
Click to expand...
Again you guys are flat out ignoring the part that says what you ctually need in order to prove it qualifies:

"However a character who can create objects without other ways of harming their opponents by using an equal amount of energy from their energy pool wouldn't be able to harness that power to hurt another character, and would fall under a light form of Environmental Destruction."
Axxtentacle said:
They've been shown to be able to harness and use this energy, which is a universal power source, for their attacks. The Dark Lord actually does state he is going to destroy everything, like i've already said and you have ignored. His attacks fall under this universal power source, as i've shown.

You keep repeating that they NEED a destruction feat on this level when we've proven that you don't. It's just one possible support, as the creation page itself says.
Click to expand...
You do need a feat of destruction as the creation page says
Axxtentacle said:
Also, don't forget the argument you pushed the narrative for when you said that the Dark Lord implies he will destroy it the same way he created it, from this quote:
Click to expand...
The only one who is pushing this argument is you, and several people backed me up on this.
 
Firestorm808 said:
If God created the universe by his hands and was about to destroy it by his hands as well, but somebody killed him before he could go through with it, that doesn't disprove Tier 2.
Click to expand...
It kinda does if he was physically killed by someone who is demonstrably far blow tier 2 physically
 
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