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Doom Eternal - The Ancient Gods - Part Two CRT (Spoilers Ahead)

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Firestorm808 said:
I want to get @Antvasima's input on this as well.
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I haven't read much of this thread, so it is hard for me to make a proper judgement, unless somebody write a summary of the arguments and lists who agrees with what.
Sir_Ovens said:
I don't understand why this is so complicated. Hell is an extension of Davoth's power; Hell itself having 2-B flat AP. This is not ED, this is usable AP that Davoth has command over. Even if we want to disregard all the creation and destruction feats, he would at the very least have the entirety of Hell as an entity at his disposal.
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This seems to make sense to me though.
 
Pretty much everyone who participated except Weekly agrees with the upgrade.
Nine people stated that they are fine with Sir Oven's likely/possibly compromise: Sir_Oven, Sir_sun_man, Gewsbumpz_dude, RebubleUselet, Migue79, Axxtentacle, XSOULOFCINDERX, DarkDragonMedeus, AKM Sama
Though Weekly himself disagrees with the compromise and still wants the entire upgrade scrapped.


Reposting summary for the pro argument

The upgrade is based on Davoth. Lore summary below:
  • Davoth can create new realities simply by lingering in the void, but can use his unrivaled power to consciously create realms, and mold species into existence from the void. With the first realm he consciously created being Jekkad.
  • Davoth created Primevals, immensely powerful gods, to steward realms and watch over them. The strength of Primevals was such that a realm can only contain one of them. Primevals do not sustain realms and the realms can exist without them, but their strength is what threatens the existence of realms.
  • One of the Primevals is Vega who was watching over Urdak, inhabited by the Maykrs who were originally an AI race with hivemind omniscience about the infinite possibilities exponentially generated by timelines. The Maykrs concluded that Davoth is an eventual threat to all creation, and records claims that Davoth have absorbed gods to grow his own power. So the Maykrs and Vega conspired to betray Davoth and seal Jekkad.
  • Vega managed to kill Davoth's body by extracting his life sphere from his chest, but Vega refused to obliterate Davoth's essence due to sentimental reasons. Davoth's life sphere was stored, with expectation that Davoth will be reduced to observing and whispering.
  • Gods are weaker without a physical form, yet they may still influence the realms. Davoth, filled with hatred, was able to bend all Jekkad utterly to his will and transform it into Hell; an absolute extension of his power, unlimited by the boundaries of space, time, or dimension, and functioning as a living entity possessing certain undeniable sentience, and capable of absorbing entire realms.
  • Davoth created the Doom Slayer and predestined him to destroy the Maykrs. Davoth using his whispers mind controlled the Khan Maykr into creating a machine powered by remnants of his body, and mind controlled the Seraphim into using the machine to empower the Doom Slayer.
  • The Doom Slayer turned out to be uncontrollable and has focused on slaughtering demons for eons, so Davoth sealed him hoping that he'll never go out. Cue Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal. The Doom Slayer eventually felt ready to face the Dark Lord as he grew in power.
  • Since the Dark Lord's power exists in the form of Hell, destroying Davoth's life sphere at this point will merely make it impossible for Davoth to reincarnate in physical form while he operates as Hell. Knowing this, the Doom Slayer decided to reincarnate Davoth into physical form to destroy both his body and soul for good.
  • Gods are at their full power when they have a physical form, and it is stated that should Davoth ever be reincarnated in physical form only another Primeval, or something more powerful, could slay him.
  • Davoth, having a honor code (such as refusing to have blood spilled in the Luminarium), knew that the Doom Slayer will inevitably find and fight him, so he staked the fate of all of existence on a duel with him.
  • Davoth states "As all things were made by my hand, so shall they be unmade. Starting with you.". Stating that his intent is to use the same unrivaled power he created a myriad of dimensions with in order to delete them.
  • Davoth is capable of using his powers to bless the weapons of demons to make them capable of obliterating both body and soul.
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In short, Davoth has Tier 2 power, and he is stated to be capable of using it in different ways, including by unmaking entire realms/universes/dimensions by his hands just like it was made by his hands. And it is stated that only powerful gods, whose strength is such that a realm cannot handle multiple of them, is capable of slaying Davoth.
Davoth also scales to Hell since it is merely an extension of his full power. Hell is a Tier 2 entity (and has been argued to be Tier 1-C) under Davoth's control, and it is capable of absorbing entire realms/universes/dimensions, and will end all of creation if it is unsealed.
 
All g (So this would be a key for Ancient Gods?)

S̶o̶ ̶w̶h̶a̶t̶ ̶I̶'̶m̶ ̶h̶e̶a̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶I̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶s̶t̶i̶l̶l̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶d̶o̶w̶n̶g̶r̶a̶d̶e̶ ̶E̶t̶e̶r̶n̶a̶l̶ ̶S̶l̶a̶y̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶H̶i̶g̶h̶ ̶8̶-̶C̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶w̶e̶'̶l̶l̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶f̶i̶n̶e̶
 
Okay. It seems fine to go with Sir Ovens' solution then.
 
I'm certainly not comfortable with putting all slayer keys in tier 2, they're fine as they are and the tier 2 stuff should be kept to another key.
 
We have vague reason to believe Slayer was at the same power he was at when he killed Davoth during the events of Eternal. I'm against adding tier 2 for his Eternal key straight up but I'll be ok with "At least Low 7-B, possibly 2-A to 2-B" if there's sufficient evidence to prove that Eternal would scale.
 
Sir_Ovens said:
We have vague reason to believe Slayer was at the same power he was at when he killed Davoth during the events of Eternal. I'm against adding tier 2 for his Eternal key straight up but I'll be ok with "At least Low 7-B, possibly 2-A to 2-B" if there's sufficient evidence to prove that Eternal would scale.
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Is there any evidence of an upgrade from 7-B to 2-A? It is an infinite^infinite difference
 
The Doom Slayer was constantly growing in power.

For he alone could draw strength from his fallen foes, and ever his power grew, swift and unrelenting. ~Slayer's Testament IV

For as he gains in strength so do they fall in numbers. ~Dr. Elena Richardson Log IV

When the Doom Slayer approaches the Dark Lord's Life Sphere, the Dark Lord states "You feel you are prepared now, for this...",
implying that the Doom Slayer previously did not feel prepared to fight the Davoth.

There is a timeskip between Eternal and The Ancient Gods, indicated by Hell's invasion of Earth ending by ARC Data entry #098, but ARC has made many data entries reaching #666 by the time of The Ancient Gods. For all we know, the Doom Slayer dedicated that time to power up against Davoth.

Firestorm808 said:
Just to clarify, we're agreeing for At least 2-B, possibly 2-A Davoth and TAG Slayer?
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So far we are going with the compromise of "At least Low 7-B, possibly/likely 2-B to 2-A". Wouldn't be against ditching the Tier 7 in an other CRT.
 
Yeah, he has indeed increased power, but the point is that it is a imense difference and he has never shown to grow that much in terms of power. I think a "Likely 2-A" is fine.
 
He absorbs all the power from the demons he kills. Maybe 2-C post icon of sin doomguy and we scale icon to his black hole.
 
Yes the tier 2 feats and statements are only present within TAG 2. But we also know that the slayer had a piece of Davoth within him since pre 2016 events. So tier 2 since then would make sense.

So let me clarify again. You are saying that he was tier 7 until the events of TAG 2?
 
Haven't multiple people gone through the divinity machine?

All we know is what we've got actual feats for, Doomguy doesn't directly have a tier 2 feat until TAG2, so it should be another key.
 
Axxtentacle said:
Yes, because there was a MASSIVE amount of time between Eternal/2016 and TAG.
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Is a massive amount of time really enough to justify the jump between tier 7 and 2? Also doomguy spent billions of years rampaging in Hell why didn’t he go from tier 7 to tier 2 during those events? Why did he make that jump in the time gap between Eternal and TAG, which is at most a couple years.
 
KieranH10 said:
Haven't multiple people gone through the divinity machine?

All we know is what we've got actual feats for, Doomguy doesn't directly have a tier 2 feat until TAG2, so it should be another key.
Click to expand...
It was stated that Samur reversed the divinity machine when doomguy entered it, putting the Davoth’s sphere into him. It would be a back scale.
 
DTG499 said:
Is a massive amount of time really enough to justify the jump between tier 7 and 2? Also doomguy spent billions of years rampaging in Hell why didn’t he go from tier 7 to tier 2 during those events? Why did he make that jump in the time gap between Eternal and TAG, which is at most a couple years.
Click to expand...
Because he doesn't have the feats of it??
 
Tier 2 the whole time since the divinty machine

Or

reactive power level/demon absorption that can make him go from tier 7 to tier 2
 
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