-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
DMC PoC continued
- Thread starter Theglassman12
- Start date
- Status
- 923
- 439
i already edited the pages a while ago, but there's still some discussion left, mainly about tier 1 hax & the 9 dimensions being "real" or not. basically the accepted stuff has been applied, but there's some topics left that dont involve editing
- 6,198
- 16,503
Souls being higher-dimensional seems fairly straightforward to me, yes. Ovens' concerns seemed to be whether or not those dimensions are "real" ones, to begin with, but, in response to that, I'll just throw this tidbit of our Tiering System FAQ page out here.
Drawing from it, I'll add in that this probably shouldn't be thought of as "1-C hax," or anything of the sort, since as should be common knowledge by now, we ditched the idea that higher-dimensional beings have are infinitely powerful by default, for reasons that the aforementioned FAQ already explains in detail. At most, this means that you'd require Interdimensional range to harm a soul in DMC, but not much other than that. Since the interpretation of the 9-D statement seems to have changed a bit since the last time I saw these revisions, I'll also obviously refrain from commenting on whether or not whatever in the cosmology fits the bill for 1-C, for now, unless that's required of me.
- 8,805
- 2,864
What about this?
Chaos: The whatever place that spawned demons, most likely this higher dimensional realm where the 9D soul are created and go back. Implied to be beyond the demon world.
Demon World: The primordial darkness that created the Human World and gave shape to demons. The human world is like a ray/line of light compared to it.
Human world: our human world
- 8,805
- 2,864
Well, to be more specific.
Chaos is the realm that creates demons, demons predate even the basic principles of existence that make up the demon world.
The demon world is an infinite primordial darkness that created the human world and the human world is only a ray/line of light compared to it.
It's not just being inaccessible. In the last 2 case the demon world is infinitely bigger and contains energy to fart universes comparable to our own without problem (and by accident considering the human world came out of nowhere) while the realm souls go (chaos) is described as a higher dimension and likely beyond the demon world existence.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,628
- 6,273
Man, it really seems you're using big words to make it more denotable than what it really is.
That being said, predating "fully" existence isn't indicative of something to tier 1, neither is being infinite (Without further details that go in that direction compared to the Human World), however, being a ray/line of light compared to it could use more context in terms of trascendence for the purposes of tier 1, if that's the case here of course.
Containing energy to nuke universes or whatever isn't particularly indicative of tier 1, and even if it's beyond the existence of the Demon World, it doesn't mean it's tier 1 with the whole 9-D detail, as it can simply be outside as another universe of sorts. We don't grant tier 1 to a place that's existencially "outside" something and is stated to be (5 or more)-D, details on such place seeing the lower stuff as "dimensionally" irrelevant (such as fictional, flat, etc) is generally required.
Also, if beings from the Human World can interact directly with ones from the Demon World without issue beyond travel, then that'd kinda be an anti-feat for tier 1, especially if the ones from the later can be in the former without, well, dimensionality issue.
- 8,805
- 2,864
That's literally what the scans say. Here I compiled most of them.
The point of that was not to say the demon world is tier 1 but that the existence of the human world is totally insignificant to it and then you have the chaos stuff that is beyond even that and is the one with the tier 1 stuff.
What? Demons physical forms aren't some higher dimensional bs.
I think you are confused and/or not reading what I said and the scans that have been posted all over the thread beyond key words so please go and read it all again before giving half-baked opinions.
- 32,835
- 38,108
A demon's physical body is not the higher-dimensional item, it's their soul, which the humans can't interact with.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,628
- 6,273
The third link seems to be done incorrectly (And so can't be used to corroborate), perhaps you forgot to actually insert the link? Beyond that the explanations are nice.
As for the rest, my bad, I was just pointing out that detail in case that was being argued, but as it isn't...
If beings from the Demon World can interact directly with the ones of the Human World without issue beyond travel then I wouldn't say it's "insignificant" for our purposes, meaning that they'd be somewhat comparable dimensionality-wise and thus wouldn't be supportive of an independant external existence that's 9-D of being tier 1 without further details regarding how it perceives the "lower-D" stuff.
Well, souls aren't something physical (And so a human not being capable of interacting with them isn't supportive of tier 1 as much as lacking NPI to hit a ghost from another dimension isn't), so I'd still oppose that, but the whole conceptual nature of them (And the other things it leads to) are fine to me.
- 32,835
- 38,108
- 923
- 439
here's how the DMC universe began for the record,
as we can see there, it compares the human world (which is low 2-C) as a ray of light in the unending darkness that is the original universe that later became the demon world, so yeah that's how the human world is perceived in comparison to demon world
as we can see there, it compares the human world (which is low 2-C) as a ray of light in the unending darkness that is the original universe that later became the demon world, so yeah that's how the human world is perceived in comparison to demon world
- 6,135
- 4,213
Interactivity is never a problem between HD and normal dimensional beings. Both can touch and feel each other just fine. Only difference is lower beings only Interact with limited portions of HD beings due to various axis beyond height/length/breadth being inaccessible.
Anyways. Chaos does qualify for Tier 1.
Tiering System FAQ
A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...
vsbattles.fandom.com
We qualify for all of the above with flying colours.
1) We have relationship between DW and HW as explained by Sevil/Tony and even you acknowledged. HW is merely a line compared to DW. In the FAQ portion I highlighted above, when something is "flat" compared to HD stuff that can be enough for Tier 1 in some cases.
What we have is FAR MORE IMPRESSIVE...
HW is line compared to DW. This is not just a simple 2D vs 3D comparison....this is outriggt 1D vs 3D...
2) HW is 4D spacetime continuum originally created by DW and was embedded in it, i.e lower dimensions being embedded in higher dimensions. Which is also qualifyinh factor in the highlighted FAQ portion above.
3) If above 2 reasons were not enough we have DW being infinite/endless compared to HW. Another qualifying factor considered acceptable by FAQ portion highlighted above.
And this is just Demon World. We aren't asking for Tier 1, we are asking for Tier 1 Chaos which is verbatim called Higher Dimensional of 9D nature. Chaos isn't an external realm divorced from DW, its a state of existence which predates creation of DW&HW. So basically its something that contains DW&HW inside it whenever they were born inside i, i.e DW&HW are embedded inside it. Quite a common trope in fictional creation stories. Example God of War Chaos/Yggdrasil from Greece/Norse myth. Only in case of DMC we have stated dimensional differences between container and contained.
So in short we qualify healthily as required by FAQ protion above to make Chaos Tier 1.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,628
- 6,273
Such as?Interactivity is never a problem between HD and normal dimensional beings. Both can touch and feel each other just fine. Only difference is lower beings only Interact with limited portions of HD beings due to various axis beyond height/length/breadth being inaccessible.
Anyways. Chaos does qualify for Tier 1.
Tiering System FAQ
A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...
We qualify for all of the above with flying colours.
1) We have relationship between DW and HW as explained by Sevil/Tony and even you acknowledged. HW is merely a line compared to DW. In the FAQ portion I highlighted above, when something is "flat" compared to HD stuff that can be enough for Tier 1 in some cases.
What we have is FAR MORE IMPRESSIVE...
HW is line compared to DW. This is not just a simple 2D vs 3D comparison....this is outriggt 1D vs 3D...
2) HW is 4D spacetime continuum originally created by DW and was embedded in it, i.e lower dimensions being embedded in higher dimensions. Which is also qualifyinh factor in the highlighted FAQ portion above.
3) If above 2 reasons were not enough we have DW being infinite/endless compared to HW. Another qualifying factor considered acceptable by FAQ portion highlighted above.
And this is just Demon World. We aren't asking for Tier 1, we are asking for Tier 1 Chaos which is verbatim called Higher Dimensional of 9D nature. Chaos isn't an external realm divorced from DW, its a state of existence which predates creation of DW&HW. So basically its something that contains DW&HW inside it whenever they were born inside i, i.e DW&HW are embedded inside it. Quite a common trope in fictional creation stories. Example God of War Chaos/Yggdrasil from Greece/Norse myth. Only in case of DMC we have stated dimensional differences between container and contained.
So in short we qualify healthily as required by FAQ protion above to make Chaos Tier 1.
As for the Chaos stuff...
1: What justifies it being a line compared to it, again? If it's only visuals then it seems rather assumptive to say the least, as not only it's clearly portrayed with at least two dimensions (more specifically details that can't fit in 1 dimension, check the borders of the "ray"), we see the sillouette of a demon and a human in it (And it's a "ray of light", not "a line"), so it seems like an artistic portrayal that can't be taken that literally even then.
2: Hm... that does seem supportive, but not enought on its own, but it also relies on the previous point anyways, so the above has to be justified better for this to hold weight as well. Also, this would imply that the Demon World is 5-D for the sake of the argument, no? In which case the before-mentioned issue of beings of the HW being able to interact with the ones of the DW with no issue dimensionality wise holds up.
3: If it's infinite/endless compared to the Human World, then that could use more context, if you meant it simply being stated to be so unlike it, then it'd be supportive, I think.
As for the rest, it doesn't predate the creation of the DW&HW necessarily, look at the wording carefully:
"From the moment of their birth, names are one of the most sacred things to demons. They represent not only power, but also the concept of their own existence, the basic principles of which predate even the creation of the demon world itself. "
This all sounds good and all until you notice "the basic principles of which predate..." basically leading into the meaning overall being that names (and souls by extension) simply not having their existence bound to the Demon World's, so to claim without a proper justification that the place where souls come from are dimensionally superior just out of a fancy state of existence and a 9-D statement seems quite overly assumptive to say the least, so I'd still disagree with souls being tier 1.
However, I'd appreciate a scan of what justifies the claim of the HW and the DW being inside Chaos, as that'd be supportive, but I don't see a citation in the post and all.
- 923
- 439
yeah it does not, as far as I'm aware In the regen statement they say that demons originated from the primordial chaos and still are being formed in the demon world. since demons are basically souls not all of them predate the demon world.
there's isn't any that I am aware of, infact there's good reason to say the Original chaos PoC is talking about is actually the Old demon world or the primordial existence from the scans above
- 8,805
- 2,864
If beings from the Demon World can interact directly with the ones of the Human World without issue beyond travel then I wouldn't say it's "insignificant" for our purposes, meaning that they'd be somewhat comparable dimensionality-wise and thus wouldn't be supportive of an independant external existence that's 9-D of being tier 1 without further details regarding how it perceives the "lower-D" stuff.
You are once again confusing what I said. 1) its the demon world that sees the human world as insignificant 2) demons physical forms are NOT higher dimensional or anything like that, only their souls/real selfs. 3) This is about Chaos (the demon world will come later)
Your example/counter doesn't work and doesn't go with or against what I said above
There are a ton of Higher dimensional shit in the wiki that aren't physical and get the benefits, demon souls not being physical is irrelevant and humans interacting or not with demons is irrelevant either as it doesn't debunk or support anything of what I said.
You aren't reading the scan and this scan isn't even about chaos.
The artistic description is irrelevant when the narration immediately tells you "a ray of light came into existence into an endless darkness", this coupled with the fact that the demon world has always been treated as some higher form of existence compared to it in the same manga and in the same page linked is enough support for this.
To put it simple, just read the thing.
We aren't implying or pushing for anything related to the demon world yet, we are just pointing how the cosmology works in verse. Chaos > DW > HW
1) Once again, Humans CAN'T interact with the demon world beyond making portals or protection against the effects it has.
2) Demons ARE NOT physically higher dimensional, interacting with them is irrelevant and doesn't help your case.
3: If it's infinite/endless compared to the Human World, then that could use more context, if you meant it simply being stated to be so unlike it, then it'd be supportive, I think.
It has and has been accepted, proven, said in a myriad of threads and is in the relevant cosmology blogs in the verse page.
But once again this is irrelevant to chaos, the main argument here.
It does, its just logical thinking. We are told Demons predate the existence of the demon world and chaos spawned demons. It doesn't need that much brain power to figure it out.
Except you are either ignoring or not understanding what you are reading. The quote you posted is clear as day. "the basic principles of which predate even the creation of the demon world itself.". You are right in something there, demons are not bout to the demon world but this is because they predate its very existence.
As for why we think Chaos is dimensionally superior.
The damn place is stated to be a higher dimensional realm.
The shit it produces (souls) is stated to be a basic nine dimensional object.
Demon souls are stated to predate the existence of the demon world itself
The relation for with Chaos and the Demon World is of similar if not higher proportions to the one with the Demon world and the Human World.
Why you might ask? Chaos is stated to be the "the primordial chaos that preceded reality" and was into existence before the demon world. This being very similar to the demon world being the primordial darkness that came after it and created a standard space-time continuum (human world) and dwarfs the entirety of its existence, comparing it to a ray of light in an endless darkness (which can get us to tier 1 for the Demon World but that's for another thread).
All of this is enough for us to claim the primordial chaos is indeed a higher dimensional realm
There isn't any but this part is irrelevant, wherever chaos is at isn't a factor for or against its tier or placement in the cosmology.
But overall that's fine, you can disagree. We are aiming to convince the staff here, not regular users.
Bobsican
He/Him- 21,628
- 6,273
Okay, how the DW sees the HW as "insignificant", once again? Assuming this is based on stuff that wasn't brought up here already and all.
Such as? You bring up this being a common thing on the site yet don't bring up proper examples where this has been accepted and all from what I can see. The soul of a demon being incorporeal does harm the argument of regular HW beings not being able to interact with them as it can less assumptively be said that it's just a lack of NPI, rather than souls being higher-d (more specifically for the purposes of tier 1) and thus dimensionally inaccessible.
Now back on the Chaos section...
1: Which is the scan in question over Chaos then? As for the whole ray of light stuff and all, I'd be on support of it on second thought as it'd simply be smaller than the DW out of the latter being stated to be endless (Although I'd still not be on support of saying it's seen as "a line", illumination isn't inherently 1-D and it isn't even called "a line" or similar in the scan in question, but rather out of the DW simply being significantly bigger), but then in the same scan it also says "the universe was eventually split in two".
Meaning that they're roughly equivalent (unless this split is talking of something else, which is unlikely), and so arguments over the HW being "insignificant" to the DW for the purposes of tier 1 in particular are nonsense. I'd also appreciate further elaboration on the "the fact that the demon world has always been treated as some higher form of existence compared to it", as no citations are given here beyond the scan that has been brought up, and this still seems just ridiculous to support tier 1 to say the least.
2: Still the same thoughts as before, this would be supportive and all, but now it lingers further on the previous point, which is more than questionable for the before-mentioned reasons.
3: I'll be fair and say that dividing an infinite thing by a finite amount doesn't necessarily means that each individual result is also infinite, as only 1 of them requires to be infinite, however, it'd still imply that the rest are infinite as well (I talked about this to Ultima Reality before). In other words as the HW came from the DW as a split from it, there's the implication that the HW is infinite as well, meaning that they'd be even more comparable and so the arguments of the DW seeing the HW as "insignificant" (Especially for the purposes of tier 1) seems even more questionable, I'm afraid.
As for the rest once more, hmm... yes, I can agree there after thinking about it for a while, souls having their existence unbound to the DW as a whole keeps room for tier 1 arguments and whatnot, but it's far from enought on its own, so it'd still be the same as Ultima said, just requiring Interdimensional range at most to potentially interact with them, rather than smurfs.
- Something being stated to be higher-dimensional isn't enought, context matters and all, especially for the tiering system which doesn't abide to the common misuse of it in fiction as simply another reality or the like.
- Souls being a 9-D thing also isn't inherently a tier 1 thing either, otherwise I can argue for tier 1 Spongebob out of the 9-D Giant Monkey Man, or tier 1 Popeye out of fighting a being from a 13-D dimension, which is a no. Simply put, context is required and assumptions should be avoided as much as possible, especially on such high tiers.
- The souls of demons predating existence and whatever keeps room for the plausability as said before, so this is a valid point, but at the same time it's far from enought as said before.
- The Chaos argument appears to rely a lot on the first point with the whole "ray of light" stuff, so I'd still decline it as several of the aspects in these arguments just don't hold weight so far.
Also, I may not be staff, but I've been on the site for years and am aware of tier 1 standards, I've talked with Ultima and some others on the topic of tier 1 in general for a while for a verse of mine and I've even managed to get another verse to tier 1. So to ignore my input out of not being staff just comes as ignorant and counterproductive (Like, the whole reason we're doing this argument in the first place is to corroborate if this really qualifies for tier 1 or not, not to just gather another vote that may not even matter anyways out of the appeal to popularity fallacy and all).
In fact, you aren't staff either, yet are still contributing significantly on the matter as well, so if you're in doubt we can just drop this and let the staff decide for us, this is a staff forum thread and all.
Last edited:
- 10,398
- 4,564
This looks promising. What’s the current consensus on the 9D soul thing only applying to when they are in Nirvana?Interactivity is never a problem between HD and normal dimensional beings. Both can touch and feel each other just fine. Only difference is lower beings only Interact with limited portions of HD beings due to various axis beyond height/length/breadth being inaccessible.
Anyways. Chaos does qualify for Tier 1.
Tiering System FAQ
A: Whether higher-dimensional entities qualify for such high tiers or not depends on several different factors, which may take root both in and out-of-verse. To explain this situation, we must first clarify what exactly being higher-dimensional entails. In a way, yes, though not how most would...
We qualify for all of the above with flying colours.
1) We have relationship between DW and HW as explained by Sevil/Tony and even you acknowledged. HW is merely a line compared to DW. In the FAQ portion I highlighted above, when something is "flat" compared to HD stuff that can be enough for Tier 1 in some cases.
What we have is FAR MORE IMPRESSIVE...
HW is line compared to DW. This is not just a simple 2D vs 3D comparison....this is outriggt 1D vs 3D...
2) HW is 4D spacetime continuum originally created by DW and was embedded in it, i.e lower dimensions being embedded in higher dimensions. Which is also qualifyinh factor in the highlighted FAQ portion above.
3) If above 2 reasons were not enough we have DW being infinite/endless compared to HW. Another qualifying factor considered acceptable by FAQ portion highlighted above.
And this is just Demon World. We aren't asking for Tier 1, we are asking for Tier 1 Chaos which is verbatim called Higher Dimensional of 9D nature. Chaos isn't an external realm divorced from DW, its a state of existence which predates creation of DW&HW. So basically its something that contains DW&HW inside it whenever they were born inside i, i.e DW&HW are embedded inside it. Quite a common trope in fictional creation stories. Example God of War Chaos/Yggdrasil from Greece/Norse myth. Only in case of DMC we have stated dimensional differences between container and contained.
So in short we qualify healthily as required by FAQ protion above to make Chaos Tier 1.
- 32,835
- 38,108
No tiering stuff to be made ATM. Souls only get HDE as of now until further content arrives.
- 6,135
- 4,213
A lot has changed since we last discussed this. I'll talk this with you on discord in a few hrs... i am outside now.
I'll reply to @Bobsican in a few hrs...sorry been busy these few days.
- 10,398
- 4,564
Got exams so I say we delay that talk by a week. There's some other stuff I want to discuss with you as well.
- 8,805
- 2,864
It already has been brought up several times, I'm not going to repeat myself just because you aren't reading.
Oh would you look at that, it's almost like there are a **** ton of examples for this.
The thing here is that there is a big ass difference between the regular incorporeal form some demons have that some humans can deal with (Allan for example) and then there is messing with the soul/name stuff, that's something that no one can really do without going through some big shit that ends with them getting demonic power.
I'm getting tired of people not ******* reading the scans and then coming here demanding shit.
Chaos Spawn Demons. Demons exist even before the demon world.
Meaning that they're roughly equivalent (unless this split is talking of something else, which is unlikely), and so arguments over the HW being "insignificant" to the DW for the purposes of tier 1 in particular are nonsense. I'd also appreciate further elaboration on the "the fact that the demon world has always been treated as some higher form of existence compared to it", as no citations are given here beyond the scan that has been brought up, and this still seems just ridiculous to support tier 1 to say the least.
Except the Demon World is called endless (infinite with the raws) and referred as something bigger and more powerful than the human world several times.
What the heck are you on about with the illumination shit? The scan refers to the demon world as this endless darknes and the human world as this tiny ray/line of light to show how insignificant one is to the other not because its literal light or a literal line.
Do you even ******* know what "split in two" means? It means and I quote: "To cut or divide into two parts To part or be parted from a mass or group". Being split in two doesn't mean "equally divided in 2" or "that they're roughly equivalent".
If a take a sheet of paper and take out one little tiny bit then the ******* paper is "split in two" because there are 2 pieces. Man I can't believe im actually explaining this shit.
Already up there. Also this where the Demon world and the demons almost covered everything were not for Sparda's actions with the world of light being powerless to the world of darkness. A realm of similar proportions to the demon world (and this one is only a pocket dimension created to fight Dante) is already considered as "beyond human comprehension". The demon world can casually **** up the human world with just a very smol part of it being forced into the merging. It's a primordial existence.
We never claimed the Human world was infinite, only the Abyss. Going back to what I said some post ago, read carefully what i'm saying.
As for the rest, I already explained above.
I already provided enough context, whether you find it enough or not doesn't really matter for this thread
Again this is not only because of the 9D statement, there is supporting evidence all around and context. But on that notion, this girl got tier 1 based on something similar to our case here with less context might I dare say?
Souls is part of it, yes. Them predating the existence of the demon world supports it too, yes.
I debunked your argument above so this doesn't hold.
This is completely irrelevant, I have been here more time than you and been aware of the tier 1 standards just the same and I don't claim my input to be more relevant here than other blue names, except for the fact that I was the one making this proposition. I don't care if you talked with Ultima or DT or anyone for any unrelated reason nor do I care if you agree or not. I am not ignoring your input dumbass, I wouldn't have bothered to discuss with you if that was the case.
The reason why you don't matter here is because this is a ******* STAFF THREAD, our votes doesn't matter nor regular users opinions overall as ONLY STAFF CAN VOTE in this kind of threads.
Have you thought the reason why I am arguing all of this is because I was the one to propose it? That I was the one to make Sevil change the thread from what it was to this.
- 16,991
- 12,130
- 6,135
- 4,213
Few hrs turned into fee days....whoosh. sorry about delay.
Also heads up, various english translations of the HW/light use both ray and light exchangeably so ye.... your nitpick was useless here.
So on a fundamental lvl your arguement is flawed. And I what beings do HW people interact with anyways?? The physical objects that get possessed by souls or the physical embodiments of demon souls?? Neither of which is relevant to discussion at hand. This is an upgrade proposal for SOULS...not the physical bodies. This displays 2nd main mistake on your part.
Like scans verbatim state when and where demon souls originate and the relevant details about the said "realm" which is Chaos.
If I stare at a girl wearing bikini I would only be able to see the skin which isn't clothed...rest of her assets would remain inaccessible to my sight, but that doesn't mean her hidden assets are non existant. I guess this is the best analogy I can come up with on the spot.
Seriously...look up the definitions of ray and line. I even posted a link above.
Regardless your point is a non factor. HW is already an infinite. Its Low2C...which is an Infinite. But just because two objects are infinite doesn't mean they are strictly same size of infinite. If we have evidence which further elaborates on nature of size of these two objects then thats more important. Our tiering system is based on principles of different sizes of infinity.
For our purposes HW is a single line/ray against DW which is an infinite/endless Darkness compared to it. If HW = x, then DW= infinite times X
Here X is a low2C structure.
Only difference now is that we consider Chaos and DW separate, so upgrade would only apply to Chaos as of this moment.
Its not like we were running blindly for upgrades. I even sited the very FAQ page which matches our requirements for Tier 1 qualifications.
Thats our practical obligation. We would not be here if we weren't defending our proposal against your opposition.
This is gonna go nowhere unless staff comes here. I'll recall @Elizhaa again.
Ray and line are same in essence, one has direction while other doesn't. Visuals are irrelevant here, they are incapable of displaying size comparison between HW and DW. They are relegated to emphasizing thematic differences between both. The text is what blatantly informs us about the structural comparison between HW and DW. Entire creation story about HW and DW in here is as literal as it gets. Its verbatim stated that HW is a Ray/Line born within the endless/infinite Darkness that is the DW.
Also heads up, various english translations of the HW/light use both ray and light exchangeably so ye.... your nitpick was useless here.
I don't know why you keep bringing up interactivity here. This is antithesis to what our standards say. I already explained why its a non factor so I ain't gonna repeat my self.
So on a fundamental lvl your arguement is flawed. And I what beings do HW people interact with anyways?? The physical objects that get possessed by souls or the physical embodiments of demon souls?? Neither of which is relevant to discussion at hand. This is an upgrade proposal for SOULS...not the physical bodies. This displays 2nd main mistake on your part.
Dude, text in manga is simple and straightforward. I don't why you'd require more explanation for it. Its fifth grade english comprehension.
You do realise we have more than one scan and explanations for our proposal....all of what you just said is rendered irrelevant when we have already mentioned the particular "realm" from demons hail which is supposed to be 1C.
Like scans verbatim state when and where demon souls originate and the relevant details about the said "realm" which is Chaos.
Thats like asking for proof for 2+2=4. Its simple logic man. DW predates HW, HW was born inside DW. Similarly Chaos predates DW and DW was born inside it. Its like simple logical reasoning aside from being one of the most common ways of depicting creation stories in fiction. What I said is the most default explanation anyone would come up with after seeing these scans.
You will send me into crippling depression right now. Life is not good as it is....and here you are stating inaccurate principles ad nauseum which is just turning my patience into swiss cheese. There's no such thing as uninteractible between lower dimensional and higher dimensional beings. When 3D dimensional beings interact with higher dimensional beings say for example 4D beings they will only touch or sense the 3 dimensional portions of these HDE beings...the remaining extra dimensions will remain inaccessible.
If I stare at a girl wearing bikini I would only be able to see the skin which isn't clothed...rest of her assets would remain inaccessible to my sight, but that doesn't mean her hidden assets are non existant. I guess this is the best analogy I can come up with on the spot.
Here's another translation...
Seriously...look up the definitions of ray and line. I even posted a link above.
There's absolutely nothing comparable about HW and DW. And there's nothing ambiguous about relation between HW and DW. Its as simple as it states. These are the same reasons Ultima, Elizhaa and Crimson agreed to upgrades originally. Only difference now is we convinced Sevil that there's not enough evidence for DW being same as Chaos so only Chaos would get the upgrade. So technically we still have staff approval for reasona which convinced them about Tier 1 Chaos in the first place.
You know when I first suggested this way back to other members of DMC team they practically institutionalized me for "wanking" the size of HW over such logic. But yesterday's wank is today's downplay I guess. No offense meant to you but just something I found ironic and funny.
Regardless your point is a non factor. HW is already an infinite. Its Low2C...which is an Infinite. But just because two objects are infinite doesn't mean they are strictly same size of infinite. If we have evidence which further elaborates on nature of size of these two objects then thats more important. Our tiering system is based on principles of different sizes of infinity.
For our purposes HW is a single line/ray against DW which is an infinite/endless Darkness compared to it. If HW = x, then DW= infinite times X
Here X is a low2C structure.
Be that as it may, even we had staff approval months before posting 1C and they even accepted it on past threads for Chaos/DW.
Only difference now is that we consider Chaos and DW separate, so upgrade would only apply to Chaos as of this moment.
Its not like we were running blindly for upgrades. I even sited the very FAQ page which matches our requirements for Tier 1 qualifications.
I mean duh... if we proposed it originally we need post our reasons and defend it right??
Thats our practical obligation. We would not be here if we weren't defending our proposal against your opposition.
This is gonna go nowhere unless staff comes here. I'll recall @Elizhaa again.
- 8,805
- 2,864
- 2,379
- 760
All that's left to do is decide whether souls qualify for above 3D HDE or 9D(1-C) HDE.
- 6,135
- 4,213
Uhhh no. Don't misinform. No once has 3D been mentioned, nor is there such thing as 3D HDE. We are only discussing 1C smurf.
As I and many have been have been saying for many days now... everything in OP has already been discussed and applied to pages.
Thats the wiki indexing part.
All thats left is discuss is smurf quality of souls....which is purely a battleboarding/ versus thread aspect.
- 16,080
- 9,325
Yeah no, I don't understand why this needs to be dragged on for so long? If the souls can't destroy a 9D realm or exist as that size, they aren't 9D. As Ultima said, existing in a higher dimension does not give you higher AP. In this case, it does not give flat 9D hax, only an indeterminately higher dimensional hax.
- 6,135
- 4,213
Quote us once where we asked for AP. Because you just strawmanned us.
And we are discussing about Chaos which is more important here for our purposes of soul.
And we are discussing about Chaos which is more important here for our purposes of soul.
- 923
- 439
no? the 9D souls dont really give any hax potency on their own no one is saying otherwise. now whether the higher dimension that creates Said souls is tier 1 is up for debate
- 2,379
- 760
I said above 3D because
So we needs to be decided is if you will need 9D range to affect souls or if 4D range will be enough.
- 167,862
- 76,481
Agreed. We should probably move on to applying what has been accepted here now.
- 6,135
- 4,213
Doesn't apply to demons here so irrelevant.
If you had read other comments you would realise that particular topic has already been decided.
We are discussing something else.
- Status
