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DMC Downgrades (the ones everyone expected)

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Vietthai96 said:
What lol, no the light doesn't split the world in half, but before that there was one realm, then Pluto split thay realm into Human World and Demon Realm, the human world is the ray of light in an infinite darkness which is the Demom Realm
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混沌界石 但丁武器锻造所需要的传说材料 直到最初的一束光将世界分为两半之前, 这样的石头都无处不见。他们饱含原初混沌的力量, 现在却愈发 稀有。 Chaos

Boundary Stone The legendary material needed to forge Dante's weapons Until the first light split the world in half, such stones were nowhere to be found. They are full of the power of the original chaos, but now they are becoming increasingly rare.

The manga tells us that the light caused the world to eventually split into two.
PoC gives new lore and tells us that the world got split in half by the light.
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
The manga tells us that the light caused the world to eventually split into two.
PoC gives new lore and tells us that the world got split into halves.
Click to expand...
Then you need to read manga again.
Because light is explicitly the Human World.

Human World isn't darkness, it goes against very theme of the verse.
Which is why I feel that this should not be directly mistaken as human world as half of Darkness. This is some other event entirely.
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Then you need to read manga again.
Because light is explicitly the Human World.

Human World isn't darkness, it goes against very theme of the verse.
Which is why I feel that this should not be directly mistaken as human world as half of Darkness. This is some other event entirely.
Click to expand...
That is possible. It says the first light split the world in two, although that can just mean that it splintered off from it rather than any significant effect. However, we also know Pluto severed the worlds. Could it be that the light being "eventually" split was done by Pluto? Another thing is, we don't exactly know how big the human world is. It is a universe, after all. And we don't really know for sure it isn't more than that, but we can't say it definitely is either.
 
Random-Helper323 said:
That is possible. It says the first light split the world in two, although that can just mean that it splintered off from it rather than any significant effect. However, we also know Pluto severed the worlds. Could it be that the light being "eventually" split was done by Pluto? Another thing is, we don't exactly know how big the human world is. It is a universe, after all.
Click to expand...
The first page of manga is just a very brief overview of creation story of the verse, it doesn't devlve into details of the creation story in same page. It doesn't provide answers of questions like how, why, when, by whom etc involving these events.

Later in the manga we get more detailed information on this.
Human World was split away by a dark horned Demon Lord with a Spear. Who is Pluto, as seen in PoC in real time, which even fits the visual description from Manga. Even DMC1 describes splitting as prophecy given in some distant past.
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
Then you need to read manga again.
Because light is explicitly the Human World.

Human World isn't darkness, it goes against very theme of the verse.
Which is why I feel that this should not be directly mistaken as human world as half of Darkness. This is some other event entirely.
Click to expand...
Never contradicted that the human world is light. I also never claimed that the Human World is darkness, and this claim has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

Per the manga:
  1. A ray of light appeared from the primordial darkness
  2. This caused the universe to eventually split into two; the Demon Realm (darkness) and the Human Realm (light)

The PoC scan contradicts the claim that there is currently an infinitesimal light/Human World, as it states that the world got split in half.
The light might have started as a small ray, but this doesn't mean that it remained this way or that it didn't grow larger.
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
Never contradicted that the human world is light. I also never claimed that the Human World is darkness, and this claim has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

Per the manga:
  1. A ray of light appeared from the primordial darkness
  2. This caused the universe to eventually split into two; the Demon Realm (darkness) and the Human Realm (light)
Click to expand...
That event has multiple different parts embedded into it.
If you read further in the manga it is explained that due to different nature's of the world there was Chaos on both sides and humans suffered a lot when Heaven raged on it. Well establishing that universe was already in a pretty modern state with existence of human even before the split.
To prevent chaos from consuming both world and getting torn apart, World of Light was seperated from World of Darkness by Dark Horned Demon Lord with his spear.

ShadowWhoWalks said:
The PoC scan contradicts the claim that there is currently an infinitesimal light/Human World, as it states that the world got split in half.
The light might have started as a small ray, but this doesn't mean that it remained this way or that it didn't grow larger.
Click to expand...
Your logic has no relevence to what we use for manga. I don't know where you are getting contradiction from, when nature of comparison is completely different.

In manga the size comparison is made between World of Light and World of Darkness.

PoC says World of Darknes is split in half, it gives no comparison between World of Light and World of Darkness.

You are comparing apples to oranges.
 
Does demon realm just encompass the finite human realm or is it infinitely larger than finite realm?
 
Scottycj256 said:
because it was useless trying to argue against the wankers

there's always a particular person or group that makes it significantly harder to scale things correctly because of bias, whether its for or against

DC, Bleach, SAO, Fate, etc. all have stubbornly insufferable ***** that are impossible to argue with and it gets on my nerves talking about these verses cuz of these people
Click to expand...
Just leave then, simple
Anyway this comment isn't welcomed here since it's derailing but also uncalled so better to refrain on it, just want to point it out
 
I sure missed a lot, huh. I do have one question though, and that's why we're even assuming an infinite size difference when the size of the human world isn't really elaborated on. Yes, it's a ray of light, but it's not like rays of light are all the exact same size. We have no idea how big the human world is supposed to be, based on this statement.

Also, in regards to Mundus' dimension, being "infinitely expanding" doesn't mean it actually is infinite already.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
I sure missed a lot, huh. I do have one question though, and that's why we're even assuming an infinite size difference when the size of the human world isn't really elaborated on. Yes, it's a ray of light, but it's not like rays of light are all the exact same size. We have no idea how big the human world is supposed to be, based on this statement.
Click to expand...
It's low2C structure, which is all that matters.

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Also, in regards to Mundus' dimension, being "infinitely expanding" doesn't mean it actually is infinite already.
Click to expand...

Infinitely expanding isn't some debunk against infinite size.
 
Gasper said:
Dude, you do realize nothing in this video applies to DMC, right? You can't just say our real universe works like DMC universe.
Click to expand...
You mean to say opposite? DMC universe doesn't work like IRL one is probably what you wanted to say.

But that small mistake aside. That point is asinine.
You didn't even get the point of the video.
Space itself expands in size scale wise. If it is X size it will remain X size, just that the scale itself expands.

The universe can be infinite or finite size, but expansion of space has nothing to do with size. They are both unrelated phenomenon, former doesn't rely on latter.

You don't randomly assume things work differently unless you have proof showing different working or mechanics.
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
It's low2C structure, which is all that matters.
Click to expand...
No, you're missing the point. The basis of low 1-C is that the ray of light (human world) is finite, while the darkness (demon world) is infinite. The issue is that the ray of light is never given any description in size, so we have no idea if the size gap actually IS infinite, and we shouldn't just assume as such.

This goes for the mirror world being an "entrance" to the demon world: Entrances don't have a specific size, so we can't quantify the difference in size between it and the demon world (aside from the demon world embedding it inside itself, but it's possible to do that and still be low 2-C).
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
No, you're missing the point. The basis of low 1-C is that the ray of light (human world) is finite, while the darkness (demon world) is infinite. The issue is that the ray of light is never given any description in size, so we have no idea if the size gap actually IS infinite, and we shouldn't just assume as such.
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter whether you think it's finite or infinite.
It's low2C and DW being Infinitely bigger in comparison goes hand and glove with the HD scan from PoC to give 1C via our Tiering page.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
No, you're missing the point. The basis of low 1-C is that the ray of light (human world) is finite, while the darkness (demon world) is infinite. The issue is that the ray of light is never given any description in size, so we have no idea if the size gap actually IS infinite, and we shouldn't just assume as such.

This goes for the mirror world being an "entrance" to the demon world: Entrances don't have a specific size, so we can't quantify the difference in size between it and the demon world (aside from the demon world embedding it inside itself, but it's possible to do that and still be low 2-C).
Click to expand...
The HW would still be finite, though? Unless you want to imply that the HW is infinite, and thus the DW is a larger infinity containing a smaller one.
 
GilverTheProtoAngelo said:
It doesn't matter whether you think it's finite or infinite.
It's low2C and DW being Infinitely bigger in comparison goes hand and glove with the HD scan from PoC to give 1C via our Tiering page.
Click to expand...
But on what basis is the demon world infinitely larger? The ray of light statement doesn't imply that, nor does the mirror world being an "entrance", and you haven't debunked either of my points regarding that, so why is the demon world still considered infinitely larger?
 
RedReaper said:
The HW would still be finite, though? Unless you want to imply that the HW is infinite, and thus the DW is a larger infinity containing a smaller one.
Click to expand...
I'm saying it's impossible to determine a size difference if we're not given a size for the human world. That's all. The infinite size difference is just something being assumed to be true.
 
Can't wait to use the same logic in my new god of war yggdrasil upgrade. That'll be fun.
 
I mean, the fact that none of the other verses that'd qualify for tier 1 using this logic are actually rated this way should say a lot.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
But on what basis is the demon world infinitely larger? The ray of light statement doesn't imply that, nor does the mirror world being an "entrance", and you haven't debunked either of my points regarding that, so why is the demon world still considered infinitely larger?
Click to expand...
The implication on that manga page is clear as day.
It's just you with your contrarian opinion claiming it's something vague or assumed.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
No, you're missing the point. The basis of low 1-C is that the ray of light (human world) is finite, while the darkness (demon world) is infinite. The issue is that the ray of light is never given any description in size, so we have no idea if the size gap actually IS infinite, and we shouldn't just assume as such.

This goes for the mirror world being an "entrance" to the demon world: Entrances don't have a specific size, so we can't quantify the difference in size between it and the demon world (aside from the demon world embedding it inside itself, but it's possible to do that and still be low 2-C).
Click to expand...
Facts are as follows:

  • Demon world contains multiple seperate flows of time within itself, including dimensions within it which have their own space-time continuum.

  • Demon world contains spaces which are infinite in scale in the case of Mundus' dimension, at least near that in the case of the mirror world, as small subsets of itself.

  • Human world is likened to a single ray of light, while the demon world is referred to as an infinite darkness.

  • Demon world is repeatedly and expressly stated to be higher dimensional.

  • Souls are expressly stated to be 9-D.

  • Those aforementioned 9-D souls are stated to originate from and return to a higher dimension upon death.

  • Souls are repeatedly stated to go to the demon world upon death.

It's far more than just the ray of light stuff.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
No, it isn't. It literally just says there is unending darkness and a ray of light. Nothing about one being larger than the other, let alone infinitely so.
Click to expand...
Your personal English comprehension literally.
While I can ponder at your "peculiar" mindset regarding this except.
We'll just have to agree to disagree, only the conclusion of the thread will prove which one was right or wrong.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
I mean, the fact that none of the other verses that'd qualify for tier 1 using this logic are actually rated this way should say a lot.
Click to expand...
But Bayonetta and Kingdom Hearts also use similar logic? The World between Worlds, Ginnungagap, that essentially encompasses everything in a difference that is compared as “the universe to the Earth.”

And that logic in itself is similar to Kingdom Hearts’, which features the Ocean Between, which compares the entire worlds/space times/etc. as mere islands on its great expanse.

And as Gilver said, the implication in the manga parallels this standard.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
To start with, “a higher dimension beyond the Eightfold Path” is a meaningless phrase. The Eightfold Path is a series of Buddhist practices intended to help one transcend the suffering of life and achieve nirvana. Nothing about it corresponds to any spatial dimensions, higher or otherwise. This statement is the equivalent of saying “a higher dimension beyond the Bar Mitzvah”; Taking a religious practice with no relation to dimensionality and extrapolating far too much from it.

Furthermore, a statement of an object being (x)-dimensional is not an indication of qualitative superiority, or higher dimensionality. There are many examples of this, ranging from Ben 10 to Popeye, to the extent that such tier 1 scaling is practically regarded as a joke in the community. More than that, though, using the one-off phrases of “higher dimension” and “nine-dimensional” is not even enough for tier 1, as the tiering system FAQ explains:
Click to expand...
alright let's do this. first of all "a basic 9 dimensional form" is pretty much describing its shape or geometry. that is infact an indication of higher dimensionality. and i dont know the context of these "examples" you bring up, so please instead of ranting, back them up with their sources and the exact reasons of why there were denied. also there doesnt need to be evidence of qualitative superiority for something to be considered Higher dimensional. i'll get to this later

second. "a higher dimension beyond the eightfold path" phrase isnt meaningless. it describes the place of where souls originate from. "the eightfold path" could mean anything in the context of this verse. as Buddhist terms in DMC are often used to name objects. take the samsara in DMC 3 for example. samsara is the cycle of life & death buddhism yet in DMC it is a key needed to advance in a mission (nirvana is also another example which was mentioned above). the eightfold path could be a realm or a series of realms. that fits with how it is described in this statement. what we care about here however is the "higher dimension" as it's the place where these souls originate from. so we know that they have a 9 dimensional shape or a form. which means they have 9 coordinate spaces and that they originate from a higher dimension. the statement couldnt be anymore clear in that translation.

and yeah i know that isnt enough to qualify for tier 1 thats literally the reason why not everyone with soul manip scales to 1-C. what you dont understand is. the fact that just because something being referred to as higher dimensional doesnt qualify for tier 1 off the bat doesn't mean it isnt higher dimensional or it's fake higher dimensional.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
I shouldn’t have to explain that a ray of light against the darkness is not indicative of the demon world seeing the universe as a literal geometrical line, just as the demon world isn’t literally “unending darkness”. The demon world being stated as infinite here isn’t particularly relevant, either; It is, after all, possible for one low 2-C space to see another as infinitely small if one has infinite spatial extent and the other does not. One would technically be infinitely larger, but not to the point of qualifying as a higher dimension. All this is meant to convey is the most bare bones good vs evil type trope that sets up almost every conflict in fiction.
Click to expand...
also this is bogus. it is a comparison. the ray of light of the human world against the endless darkness that is the demon world.
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Okay, the issue is that there is no direct comparison between the two. The demon world is endless, sure, fine. The human world is "a ray of light"; Not in comparison to the demon world, not as "a ray of light in the endless darkness", it just... is a ray of light, without further elaboration. You're taking two separate statements and linking them in a way not written into the text in order to support your conclusion, even though nothing there actually supports it.
Click to expand...
this response isnt good either. the statement goes as follows "Unending darkness. A crucible of chaos. But even to that primordial existence there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split in two. The darkness became the realm of demons... and the light became the domain of mortals." yeah there is a direct comparison here. as it is saying to that primordial existence (the demon world) there came a spec or a ray of light IE to this unending darkness there came a ray of light

also that's not even the main point. the main point is that the demon realm is holding a tier 2 thing as a subset of itself which it did here. whilst being 9 dimensional. that qualifies according the FAQ

and that's not the only thing that makes the demon world tier 1. the fact that it's infinite sized and it has 9 dimensions. that's also a standard for qualifying though i dont exactly know why(smth about N measures agnaa said) but to my knowledge it still exists. we had a conversation about all that shit here
so yeah there doesnt need to be "qualitative superiority" or some shit like that when we're trying to prove higher dimensions are tier 1 just that they're of significant size. ****, DT only said it needed to be as large as the observable universe while agnaa said it needed to be infinite initially

they said there were gonna change all the standards above. and they still didnt as far as i am aware
so i came up with another way to make the verse 1-C in preparation for that but i wont go there yet unless you can properly refute the other 2.

also i want to address smth a bit unrelated
Scottycj256 said:
NONE of the actually competent staff want 50 kilometers near this verse because of the sheer amount of wankers involved with it
Click to expand...
nah it's probably because of ppl like you spreading unnecessary toxicity in these threads. if all you're gonna contribute here is calling ppl "wankers" then please stop commenting for the good of everyone involved
 
Last edited:
Random-Helper323 said:
Facts are as follows:

  • Demon world contains multiple seperate flows of time within itself, including dimensions within it which have their own space-time continuum.

  • Demon world contains spaces which are infinite in scale in the case of Mundus' dimension, at least near that in the case of the mirror world, as small subsets of itself.

  • Human world is likened to a single ray of light, while the demon world is referred to as an infinite darkness.

  • Demon world is repeatedly and expressly stated to be higher dimensional.

  • Souls are expressly stated to be 9-D.

  • Those aforementioned 9-D souls are stated to originate from and return to a higher dimension upon death.

  • Souls are repeatedly stated to go to the demon world upon death.

It's far more than just the ray of light stuff.
Click to expand...
^^
Gasper said:
I don't care much about higher D stuff or if low 1-C or even 1-C gets accepted, but that statement right there isn't enough for low 1-C.
Click to expand...
It wasn't the cause though. It's just supporting information. I listed a step by step connect the dots meets the ABC's for you, and you've chosen to single out a single dot in the entire list and say that isn't sufficient on its own. If I didn't want to believe otherwise, I'd suspect you were being dishonest.
 
RedReaper said:
But Bayonetta and Kingdom Hearts also use similar logic? The World between Worlds, Ginnungagap, that essentially encompasses everything in a difference that is compared as “the universe to the Earth.”

And that logic in itself is similar to Kingdom Hearts’, which features the Ocean Between, which compares the entire worlds/space times/etc. as mere islands on its great expanse.

And as Gilver said, the implication in the manga parallels this standard.
Click to expand...
Nooooooo Reaper.
Now you will be thrown against the "muh whataboutism" wolves!!!!
 
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