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DMC Downgrades (the ones everyone expected)

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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
this by using Ultima and DT as "gotchas" despite their own lack of knowledge on the verse. That's all there is for staff input at this moment.
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You got one part egregiously wrong.

Ultima was in the DMC server and he was notified of practically everything related to the 9D shenanigans in extravagant detail including all prior verse lore to make sure the upgrades would go through the moment the 9D scans were thoroughly translated. To say that Ultima lacks knowledge on the verse would be effectively put, lying.
 
KLOL506 said:
You got one part egregiously wrong.

Ultima was in the DMC server and he was notified of practically everything related to the 9D shenanigans in extravagant detail including all prior verse lore to make sure the upgrades would go through the moment the 9D scans were thoroughly translated. To say that Ultima lacks knowledge on the verse would be effectively put, lying.
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Yeah man my bad I didnt have knowledge that was ******* exclusive to a DMC server I'm only just now hearing about. I was going off the only public information I had, which was Ultima's post in the thread where 9D was accepted, where he said he didn't know the verse.

Not having access to information I literally didn't know existed is not lying. Don't accuse me of shit for no reason.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Okay, so to start, I'd like to request for @Bobsican to be allowed to comment here, as it was him who reached out to me about creating this CRT and played a part in its creation. He's the OP of this just as much as I am.

Second is that, just for the sake of recapping, @Sir_Ovens, @Maverick_Zero_X, and @DarkDragonMedeus agree with downgrading the verse from 1-C (9D). Ovens and DDM are okay with low 1-C, while Mav is neutral and has said she will weigh in once more discussion has been had regarding low 1-C. DDM has unfollowed the thread, so I'm not sure if he wants to be @ed here. DMC supporters are trying to undermine Ovens' and DDM's agreement by saying they don't know DMC, and my only response to that is that the DMC supporters are committing a double standard regarding this by using Ultima and DT as "gotchas" despite their own lack of knowledge on the verse. That's all there is for staff input at this moment.

I'd also like to ask for the raws for the "ray of light" statement, as I would like to make sure the original text supports the interpretation of a direct size comparison between the HW and DW, and isn't just being misunderstood/mistranslated.

To address some smaller stuff,

I am calm, just frustrated. I'm asking you to explain what your source here is, because one has not been given. If the text is only implicit in its meaning, then we should not use it to conclusively say the DW transcends the HW. We only give "possibly" ratings for things that are merely implied (and even that is often a bit generous).

That does lead me to the low 1-C stuff though, and I will say that I am fine with a possibly rating for the reasons @thetechmaster36 has stated above. The comparison needs to be taken at its absolute most literal interpretation for it to be low 1-C, which I do not think suffices for a full on rating, but that interpretation obviously does still exist, so it's fine as a possibility.

Anyways, I'll get to work on responding to @Sevil Natas' post, though I'd like to ask him to repost his response here, both so it's easier for staff members just joining to view it and easier for me to respond to it.
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Code_1_Dante_Page_-_2-3.jpg


full raw scan for the ray of light statement

だがその世界にも一条の光が差

this is the line you want
 
Thank you. I'll check with someone I know who speaks some Japanese, though it'd be a good idea to put this in the translation request thread as well.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Thank you. I'll check with someone I know who speaks some Japanese, though it'd be a good idea to put this in the translation request thread as well.
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We already had it translated countless times by our very own @TISSG7Redgrave, who also speaks Japanese and was actually a translator on this very wiki. I can post his translation screenshot if you like.
 
Fine. First is that the phrase "But even in that world one streak of light shone through" lacks the implication of a massive difference in size; Just that the light shone through the demon world and became the human world. That isn't really a drastic change, but the issue is that, to my knowledge, "light" in this context can also refer to things like hope or goodness; So it could very likely be likened to a ray of hope or a bit of good against darkness, which isn't a comparison in size at all.

I wanna emphasize that none of this is a conclusive debunk, I just think it means there is not hard evidence of this being qualitative superiority. It makes just as much sense to say the HW is a ray of hope against the DW, I would imagine.
 
Thank you. I will relay this information to RedReaper, Tony and the other DMC experts to see their response.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Fine. First is that the phrase "But even in that world one streak of light shone through" lacks the implication of a massive difference in size;Just that the light shone through the demon world and became the human world. That isn't really a drastic change, but the issue is that, to my knowledge, "light" in this context can also refer to things like hope or goodness; So it could very likely be likened to a ray of hope or a bit of good against darkness, which isn't a comparison in size at all
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Yea no the manga have made it clear that the light is the humans and their world as it kept referring them as the light and demon are referred as the darkness over and over again
6-o.jpg


7-o.jpg


Hope this help clear the misconception
 
Deadguy said:
Yea no the manga have made it clear that the light is the humans and their world as it kept referring them as the light and demon are referred as the darkness over and over again
6-o.jpg


7-o.jpg


Hope this help clear the misconception
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This doesn't change what I said. The context of that first scan could very likely be referring to the human world as a ray of hope. Future statements calling it light again doesn't change that fact.
 
RedReaper said:
I also want to point out that the Darkness being infinite isn’t flavor text, or just a sketchy localization. The RAWs, official TL, and Fan TL by Red, and the Devil’s Lair TL, all share the same line, with the very Kanji being “Infinite/Endless Darkness,” or “果てなき闇.”
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I want to point out that I’ve already POSTED the RAWs and all relevant TLs. They are consistent with each other in every way. Unending Darkness. Endless Darkness. Infinite Darkness. The World of Darkness is always some analogy to infinity, and that’s because the RAWs themselves indicate that.

And even in Red’s TL, the phrasing is

“…And even in THAT WORLD one streak of light shone through.”

Which is great, but also, you’re literally ignoring 2 other TLs, which describe it as a “Ray,” or a “Line.”

Which highlights it as literally as a smaller thing. Even in Red’s TL, it’s a streak of Light purposely made to be in comparison to Endless/Infinite/Unending Darkness.

So your hang up on this one TL is strange, when two others do so, and even stranger when it just words the same message differently, but achieves the same meaning.

Secondly, that’s ******* hilarious. Like, actually. Because literally it describes the Human World ITSELF as the Light.

Official: “The Light became the Domain of Mortals.”

Devil’s Lair: “The Light is the Human World.”

Red: “The Light became the Human World.”

“The Light,” is not hope. It’s not justice. It’s not peace. It’s literally the Universe ITSELF that humanity resides in. Further, I can prove this is the case without the LITERAL FACT the TEXT ITSELF states this is the case.

Because the VERY NEXT PAGE is:

“The Lord of the Dark Realm said, these REALMS were once United. Why not Rule them as one? From that Era forward, the DARK fought to CONTROL THE LIGHT. But the NATURE of MAN is weak and fragile. There was no way they could oppose the DEMONIC POWERS from the WORLD OF SHADOWS. LIGHT was overwhelmed by the IMPENETRABLE DARKNESS, and HUMANITY prepared to meet it’s end. That is, until HE arrived.”

Mundus literally describes the Light as a realm. It’s references to humans living there, not once, but twice.

But maybe that’s just the official TL, so what does a different one look li-?

Oh, it’s the EXACT SAME THING.

Mind you, the realms being separated wasn’t first mentioned in the DMC3 Manga. It was mentioned in Devil May Cry 1.

“Heaven,” in that context is the DW, as we know from Arkham in the Manga. (That’s how Humans viewed the DW.)
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
This doesn't change what I said. The context of that first scan could very likely be referring to the human world as a ray of hope. Future statements calling it light again doesn't change that fact.
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The problem of your argument is that you more reliant on interpretation rather than actual direct statements you see the problem is your interpretation could possibly be right still lacks any solid foundation to stand on it as it's only coming from your own perspective which not wrong everyone have different perceptive on stuff but it should atleast match or connect with perspective of the verse
 
Btw I won't be covering the ray of light stuff very much since I already gave my thoughts on that. I'll wait for a response to my above post.

alright let's do this. first of all "a basic 9 dimensional form" is pretty much describing its shape or geometry. that is infact an indication of higher dimensionality. and i dont know the context of these "examples" you bring up, so please instead of ranting, back them up with their sources and the exact reasons of why there were denied. also there doesnt need to be evidence of qualitative superiority for something to be considered Higher dimensional. i'll get to this later

You are correct that qualitatitative superiority is not needed for higher dimensionality; However, this ONLY applies to things like HDE, and not actual tiering. Superiority is needed for us to say that the realm these souls exist in a tier 1 realm; Superiority is not needed for us to say that they are still 9D and have things like HDE.

This is all further complicated by the mere existence of the human world, where I assume people have souls. If these souls are higher-dimensional, as you claim, how exactly can they exist on a 4D plane?

second. "a higher dimension beyond the eightfold path" phrase isnt meaningless. it describes the place of where souls originate from. "the eightfold path" could mean anything in the context of this verse. as Buddhist terms in DMC are often used to name objects. take the samsara in DMC 3 for example. samsara is the cycle of life & death buddhism yet in DMC it is a key needed to advance in a mission (nirvana is also another example which was mentioned above). the eightfold path could be a realm or a series of realms. that fits with how it is described in this statement. what we care about here however is the "higher dimension" as it's the place where these souls originate from. so we know that they have a 9 dimensional shape or a form. which means they have 9 coordinate spaces and that they originate from a higher dimension. the statement couldnt be anymore clear in that translation.

This is purely conjecture. You are correct that Buddhist concepts exist in DMC (and in forms that differ from their original religious context), but that doesn't mean every Buddhist concept exists in-verse. As far as I have been made aware, this bit of text is the only mention of an Eightfold Path in the series, and no real elaboration is given on what it is. It could be a series of realms, yes, but we don't actually know that. It could be anything, and souls being a higher dimension beyond that is meaningless unless we are given further context. It is on you to prove that the "Eightfold Path", in this context, refers to a series of universal realms.

As explained in the tiering system, a higher-dimensional space, even if it is given an exact number of coordinates, does not qualify for tier 1 if no prior establishment of qualitative superiority is made. As of now, that superiority is in contention, but should it be denied, we'd have no reason to assume the statements of higher dimensionality actually translate to tier 1.

this response isnt good either. the statement goes as follows "Unending darkness. A crucible of chaos. But even to that primordial existence there came a ray of light. The universe was eventually split in two. The darkness became the realm of demons... and the light became the domain of mortals." yeah there is a direct comparison here. as it is saying to that primordial existence (the demon world) there came a spec or a ray of light IE to this unending darkness there came a ray of light

Two things. A ray of light does not have a defined size; It can be any size, technically speaking, so it's more or less a comparison of "against the infinite darkness, there is a ray of indeterminate size". That simply does not fly when it comes to qualitative superiority, and we don't just assume the highest possible interpretation by default. Second is that, as I explained above, "light" in this scene can also mean something like hope, so it could be saying "a ray of hope against the darkness", which is still a reasonable interpretation under the context set up by the series.

also that's not even the main point. the main point is that the demon realm is holding a tier 2 thing as a subset of itself which it did here. whilst being 9 dimensional. that qualifies according the FAQ

It does not. We explicitly allow tier 2 structures to contain other tier 2 structures; The main thing that qualifies is if that subset of a tier 2 structure is infinitesimal, which has not been proven. You've given examples of tier 2 realms being finite in comparison to the demon world, which I fully accept, but you have to understand there is a massive difference between "finite" and "infinitely small".

Palito266 said:
Just one thing Regarding the whole PoC stuff.
You cannot create a higher dimensional object in a 3D Space, similar how we can't comprehend how would a 4D Object look, feel and even exist and we can't even imagine the axis of it. So, with this in mind, it's safe to assume that in order for a space to create objects, it needs to be in the same dimensionality or maybe less for it to work.
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This is true. This is also why I think it's important to explain how 9D souls can exist in a 4D HW, despite DMC supporters' insistence that such a thing is impossible. It feels like there's a massive discrepancy here that has not been explained.
 
Deadguy said:
The problem of your argument is that you more reliant on interpretation rather than actual direct statements you see the problem is your interpretation could possibly be right still lacks any solid foundation to stand on it as it's only coming from your own perspective which not wrong everyone have different perceptive on stuff but it should atleast match or connect with perspective of the verse
Click to expand...
Yeah, and I could say the same thing to your point. Like I said, the "ray of hope" thing isn't a total debunk, it just means that the ray of light interpretation isn't the only valid interpretation; It could be a size difference in one interpretation, and it wouldn't be one in the other. There is no way to conclusively say for sure. That's why I think a "possibly low 1-C" is fine.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Two things. A ray of light does not have a defined size; It can be any size, technically speaking, so it's more or less a comparison of "against the infinite darkness, there is a ray of indeterminate size". That simply does not fly when it comes to qualitative superiority, and we don't just assume the highest possible interpretation by default. Second is that, as I explained above, "light" in this scene can also mean something like hope, so it could be saying "a ray of hope against the darkness", which is still a reasonable interpretation under the context set up by the series.
Click to expand...
I heavily agree on this bit, at best this'd just depend on intepretation on who you ask, but in the end it's definitely a bit too vague to claim a qualitative superiority is totally intended to be portrayed.

Edit: To add on that topic, this whole deal reminds me of the deal with tier 1 God of War, which was declined by Ultima, but one part of that debunk sticks out related to this matter...

There is this, which as evidenced by the name of the picture, is meant to be used as evidence for Yggdrasil perceiving all of the nine realms as infinitesimal points within itself. I don't think I need to explain what's wrong with this interpretation: Literally all this is saying is that Midgard is in the middle of the tree, and a quick overview of the common usage of the word "midpoint" in everyday vocabulary should tell you that it doesn't mean "This thing is a literal geometrical point that is located at the center of something."
Click to expand...

Does this reminds of anything? Yeah, the same argument applies to the "ray"/"line" thing, except it's even vaguer as it isn't necessarily translatable as a "line", simply put, way more assumptions are overall being made on this being a qualitative superiority being portrayed to begin with.
 
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Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Two things. A ray of light does not have a defined size; It can be any size, technically speaking, so it's more or less a comparison of "against the infinite darkness, there is a ray of indeterminate size". That simply does not fly when it comes to qualitative superiority, and we don't just assume the highest possible interpretation by default. Second is that, as I explained above, "light" in this scene can also mean something like hope, so it could be saying "a ray of hope against the darkness", which is still a reasonable interpretation under the context set up by the series.
Click to expand...
This ignores the context at hand, the ray of light IS the Human World and that's something we can quantify
 
Palito266 said:
Well...
image.png

PoC:

灵魂
它继续隐藏着人类和恶魔都不了解的奥秘，但所有人都拥有这些奥秘。
一种基本的九维形式，一般来说，它起源于并返回到八正道之外的更高维度。
它不仅包含心灵和记忆，还包含自古以来本体及其祖先的所有信息。
I am no genius at the language and i don't know it so feel free to correct it since it's really complex from what i've seen.
Click to expand...
This does says blatantly 9-D.
However, does this dimension cosmology function similarly as the descriptions used by us? This is to discuss further.

Low 1-C sounds totally fine apaprently.
 
Just wanted to say something.
I'm aware about all the fuzz sorrounding the line of light and darkness blah blah blah. Been seeing people say something about interpretations n' shit, what other interpretations can we make out aside from the whole "Line of Light vs Infinite Darkness"?
 
Palito266 said:
Just wanted to say something.
I'm aware about all the fuzz sorrounding the line of light and darkness blah blah blah. Been seeing people say something about interpretations n' shit, what other interpretations can we make out aside from the whole "Line of Light vs Infinite Darkness"?
Click to expand...
I thought I made it pretty clear that it could also mean a ray of hope vs infinite darkness. You know, setting up a very trope-y good vs evil type conflict. Not like that's unheard of in fiction.

Anyways, I did ask someone else for help with the translation, and in their opinion they do not believe it talks about size in any way, something I believe should be taken into account.
image.png
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
I thought I made it pretty clear that it could also mean a ray of hope vs infinite darkness. You know, setting up a very trope-y good vs evil type conflict. Not like that's unheard of in fiction.

Anyways, I did ask someone else for help with the translation, and in their opinion they do not believe it talks about size in any way, something I believe should be taken into account.
image.png
Click to expand...
I highly doubt it's a ray of hope. Why would it be a ray of hope anyway? A ray of hope for the demons to feast on? Or perhaps a ray of hope for us to have something to read, i don't get what you're trying to say here but i doubt that's the case.
Although it is good for you to bring up other translators to check the validity of it all. There are other stuff to take in account but like, those weren't used, aren't defined and they're likely things that don't have a solid context yet and at best they're supportive points so i'll just leave it at that.
 
Palito266 said:
I highly doubt it's a ray of hope. Why would it be a ray of hope anyway? A ray of hope for the demons to feast on? Or perhaps a ray of hope for us to have something to read, i don't get what you're trying to say here but i doubt that's the case.
Click to expand...
It could be a metaphor. As I said, it could be setting up a good vs evil type story, where describing the "good" side as akin to hope and the "evil" side as darkness is quite common (Star Wars is a pretty clear example of this specific metaphor, if that helps). I feel like this statement is being taken far too literally.
 
A metaphor of what? We've literally seen other L2-C realms inside the DW no issue, i don't see why this shouldn't be the case
 
Palito266 said:
A metaphor of what? We've literally seen other L2-C realms inside the DW no issue, i don't see why this shouldn't be the case
Click to expand...
...Did you even read the rest of my post? I already explained what it could mean.

I know the DW contains low 2-C realms. I'm not contesting that. However, it is not clearly shown to be infinitely larger than them, and we do allow for low 2-C structures to be embedded in structures below low 1-C.
 
Robo said:
More supporting evidence
The mirror world, a dimension that reflects the human world and is a reversed copy of it, is stated to only serve as the entrance to the demon world.
it also has an endless sea in it and is described as an endless void.
Click to expand...
Weren't those localizations?

Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
...Did you even read the rest of my post? I already explained what it could mean.

I know the DW contains low 2-C realms. I'm not contesting that. However, it is not clearly shown to be infinitely larger than them, and we do allow for low 2-C structures to be embedded in structures below low 1-C.
Click to expand...
I did read your post, but i just don't see how that's the case here. In anyway, this is just a circular argument of "This is" and "This is not" so i'll wait for more input regarding the whole line of coke and endless darkness stuff.
 
Robo said:
More supporting evidence
The mirror world, a dimension that reflects the human world and is a reversed copy of it, is stated to only serve as the entrance to the demon world.
it also has an endless sea in it and is described as an endless void.
Click to expand...
Guys. ******* Please. I know the demon world is infinite. I know the mirror world is embedded inside the demon world. Neither of these things qualify for tier 1.

Palito266 said:
I did read your post, but i just don't see how that's the case here. In anyway, this is just a circular argument of "This is" and "This is not" so i'll wait for more input regarding the whole line of coke and endless darkness stuff.
Click to expand...
Idk what to tell you then man, legitimately at a loss as to how to argue with someone who doesn't understand the concept of a metaphor.
 
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
Idk what to tell you then man, legitimately at a loss as to how to argue with someone who doesn't understand the concept of a metaphor.
Click to expand...
Oh, eager are we? Perhaps you can be less vague and more direct then, we're not equal. If not then we'd be in an agreement for years now, don't you think?
 
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