Divine Dimensional Dance 2nd round: Shinza Gods downgrade

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Qlipoth's post makes the most sense.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Good explanations as always.
Although the comment in itself isn't on any side, it's just explaining a thing about the Singularity.

What we definitely need is staff opinions/votes. Thread just won't evolve otherwise.

(Also I doubt that two Shinza threads can be made at the same time?)

 

[Regidian]

Qlipoth's post makes the most sense.

Qlipoth have made the post to show about what the 1-A is currently based on...

 

[QuasiYuri]

He explained what the Singularity is yeah, since he saw that it is the current reason for 1-A. He prefers to stay outside of any opinion on the Gods tiering for now tho.

 

[Infera28]

(Also I doubt that two Shinza threads can be made at the same time?)

Isn't there multiple dragon ball and nasuverse revision threads simultaneously going?

 

[QuasiYuri]

Isn't there multiple dragon ball and nasuverse revision threads simultaneously going?

I mean, you can do it in theory yeah.
I'm just wondering if it would be pertinent to do so, since this thread is stagnating quite a bit + making another one when a relatively important one is nearing the end could confuse some.

That's also why I'm kinda insistent on staff giving their opinions, since that's nearly all that's needed rn.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

What Yuri said is true about the beyond-time thing for the Throne. Ren never said such a thing in the original version in the post-Mitsoudome/Three Colors route fight.

This is what he said.

The future--even if it wasn't correct in saying it, I still believed in it. For the world to be wrapped by her embrace, I could say with all my heart that it'll be all right.

Basically, only the statement regarding the Throne having no time is there in the original. So we have the Throne that K3 describes as hyperdimensional, is void of space and also time not existing there, and it exists even further beyond the Singularity.

Also Regidian's post is correct in saying what I said about what part of the reason the Gods are currently are now is because of the Singularity. Other stuff regarding painting/picture vs reality and Taikyoku/Atizluth being the origin of all things are also what seems to be going for these guys. Actually, I'm pretty sure that's what makes them as they are now, which can change depending on the decision outcome of this.

 

[KingPin0422]

I would like to make a few more comments:

Firstly, the evidence being used to defend 1-A is as follows:

1. Hegemony (Hadō) is the origin of all concepts, all dualities, all phenomena, etc.
2. Hadō Gods see creation as a canvas they can freely paint over while being untouchable from its perspective no matter how realistic the painting is.
3. The Throne is described as hyperdimensional and devoid of space and time. Meanwhile, we know from Yakou Madara's displays that creation can accommodate higher dimensions, which are also infinitely superior to lower dimensions according to Tenma Akuro.
4. The power of Briah, of which Atziluth is an extension, is already unfettered by things such as distance, time, and physics as a whole.

These arguments are rather similar to why we rate The Creator (from When They Cry) or ANU at tier 0 - or, for a more direct example, this kind of evidence is a large part of why we have the Swirl of the Root at 1-A. To quote these pages:

Is the "Spiral of Origin", the grand mass of nothingness that all concepts in existence sprang forth from, and is where everything returns when it is destroyed. Controls and exists at the summit of all dimensional theories, existing independently of it's definitions. It is completely transcendent of the rest of reality, an unrestrained domain free from binary opposition. While spoken of as the "Spiral of Origin", this term cannot be applied to its true essence as 「　」, and any possible description or definition one could try giving is immediately separated into its own idea unrelated to 「　」

The Creator is completely boundless and devoid of any existential limits and restrictions whatsoever, being the root cause out of which everything else in the setting originates and being completely transcendent over all meaning and definition, even in relation to entities such as Featherine Augustus Aurora

The Amaranth is the flowering statehood of Boundless "Zero" which stands beyond CHIM, and beyond all AE, wherein an individual enters a state of Eternal Sensory Deprivation and steps beyond the Dreams of the Godhead, dissolving into the sea of featureless potential and becoming bereft of all characteristics, emerging as the Impersonal Cosmic Unity completely devoid of all illusions of duality and restriction, the boundless and indivisible state of limitless and indescribable Void from which all ideas, numbers and possibilities spring into being, outside of all else but Its own unbound consciousness. Holds the Dreamsleeve, the most fundamental level of all existence which is devoid of all forms of time and space and contains all possible ideas and information, as an aspect of itself alongside all of the Aurbis and beyond, with even Anu and Padomay being merely the most fleeting and minuscule echoes of its infinite consciousness

Yuri's counters against 1-A consist of references to higher dimensions in relation to Gods or their powers, "hyperdimensional" being a vague term that can just mean "more than three-dimensional", Madara's dimensional barriers blocking attacks from Gods, and Gods being bound to physics. However:

1. From what I have heard, the Voyagers are referred to as higher-dimensional beings, even though they are 1-A+. The Cthulhu Mythos also uses words like "many-dimensioned" and "region of dimensions" to describe realms which are more consistently portrayed as beyond all dimensions. I cannot speak for the point about Shinza Banshō using flowery language often, but if that is true, then that makes the idea of Gods being merely higher-dimensional even less likely.
2. I'll admit that "hyperdimensional" by itself is meaningless, but when we know that the Throne sits above higher-dimensional spaces and that space and time do not exist at its level, that lends some credit to it truly being beyond-dimensional. Even Tenchi Muyo reserves "chō jigen" for the realm of the Chōshin and doesn't just throw it out for any higher-dimensional space. This reminds me that I still have to find out if that line about the Throne being the extreme point of higher dimensions is legitimate or not...
3. It should be worth noting that Madara's Taiji value during the first few instances was a measly 2 - the lowest value ever recorded in the series, and due to Madara's lack of color, it was not even that in effect. Meanwhile, the Tenma all share Yatō's Taiji value due to being his legionnaires, which I believe was 70 at the time. Saying that Madara's barriers can deflect Gods' full power completely ignores how Taiji works: a stronger Taiji will always trivialize a weaker Taiji, no matter how small the numerical difference.
4. As explained before, Briah already is strong enough to go beyond the confines of physics, and Atziluth is ultimately an extension of Briah, hence it being described as when the "creation figment" (Briah) becomes universal. Plus, "physics of another phase" can mean several different things, as others have pointed out. Even in Japanese, one word or phrase can have multiple meanings, so the same word being used under two different contexts doesn't mean much.

In conclusion, I am inclined to side with 1-A staying, albeit perhaps with some edits to the justification for the tier if necessary.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Firstly, the evidence being used to defend 1-A is as follows:

1. Hegemony (Hadō) is the origin of all concepts, all dualities, all phenomena, etc.
2. Hadō Gods see creation as a canvas they can freely paint over while being untouchable from its perspective no matter how realistic the painting is.
3. The Throne is described as hyperdimensional and devoid of space and time. Meanwhile, we know from Yakou Madara's displays that creation can accommodate higher dimensions, which are also infinitely superior to lower dimensions according to Tenma Akuro.
4. The power of Briah, of which Atziluth is an extension, is already unfettered by things such as distance, time, and physics as a whole.

These arguments are rather similar to why we rate The Creator (from When They Cry) or ANU at tier 0 - or, for a more direct example, this kind of evidence is a large part of why we have the Swirl of the Root at 1-A. To quote these pages:

Creator and ANU both are false equivalence actually, scaling to their hierarchy being that strong

Akasha is also kinda different: doesn't have anti feats, more concrete feats, mention of how higher infinities are still limited in comparison to its own infinity, etc...

Yuri's counters against 1-A consist of references to higher dimensions in relation to Gods or their powers, "hyperdimensional" being a vague term that can just mean "more than three-dimensional", Madara's dimensional barriers blocking attacks from Gods, and Gods being bound to physics. However:

1. From what I have heard, the Voyagers are referred to as higher-dimensional beings, even though they are 1-A+. The Cthulhu Mythos also uses words like "many-dimensioned" and "region of dimensions" to describe realms which are more consistently portrayed as beyond all dimensions. I cannot speak for the point about Shinza Banshō using flowery language often, but if that is true, then that makes the idea of Gods being merely higher-dimensional even less likely.

For Voyagers, the statement was about their 1-B selves, so no problem.

I sure don't remember beyond dimensional realms being called as such. And being "consistently portrayed" is kinda wrong, since anything around 1-A comes from 1/2 stories.

Also while would clear explanations of a power or a situation be somehow flowery but stuff based on analogy and metaphor somehow are legit? Without including the translation problems.

1. I'll admit that "hyperdimensional" by itself is meaningless, but when we know that the Throne sits above higher-dimensional spaces and that space and time do not exist at its level, that lends some credit to it truly being beyond-dimensional. Even Tenchi Muyo reserves "chō jigen" for the realm of the Chōshin and doesn't just throw it out for any higher-dimensional space. This reminds me that I still have to find out if that line about the Throne being the extreme point of higher dimensions is legitimate or not...

Tenchi Muyo have the Choushin realm as a mere higher dimension among others, just the top one.

Which goes very well with ParaLost and others statements for the Throne.

1. It should be worth noting that Madara's Taiji value during the first few instances was a measly 2 - the lowest value ever recorded in the series, and due to Madara's lack of color, it was not even that in effect. Meanwhile, the Tenma all share Yatō's Taiji value due to being his legionnaires, which I believe was 70 at the time. Saying that Madara's barriers can deflect Gods' full power completely ignores how Taiji works: a stronger Taiji will always trivialize a weaker Taiji, no matter how small the numerical difference.

Madara Colorless Taiji is the same as having no value tbf.

Also his very own profile (when he had Colorless Taiji) says that his abilities make him comparable to the Tenmas, as shown prior.

No Legionnary has a taiji of 70 and they sure don't have Yato's value. Litterary all true Gods are above the Tenmas sans Yato.

And feats + statements show the opposite. And I'm on the proof side of things.

1. As explained before, Briah already is strong enough to go beyond the confines of physics, and Atziluth is ultimately an extension of Briah, hence it being described as when the "creation figment" (Briah) becomes universal. Plus, "physics of another phase" can mean several different things, as others have pointed out. Even in Japanese, one word or phrase can have multiple meanings, so the same word being used under two different contexts doesn't mean much.

It actually is a point against 1-A. Gudo Briah users sure aren't 1-A beings.

When phase is used for higher dimensions there's not much deduction work to do. The two context uses similar terminology to refer to similar thing.
Saying it means something else without evidences is just a headcanon.

In conclusion, I am inclined to side with 1-A staying, albeit perhaps with some edits to the justification for the tier if necessary.

I agree that no matter what the result is, the justification has to be changed.

Although some points of your explanation are really just objectively wrong. Like, c'mon. Getting opinions is already hard with everything that was said before.

 

[Antvasima]

KingPin0422 seems to make sense to me.

Anyway, we still have a rule against several ongoing content revisions threads for the same verses, to avoid being overwhelmed, but quite a lot of our members seem to ignore it.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Madara Colorless Taiji is the same as having no value tbf.

This will be your own opinion tho, not how taiji work

Even though its colorless its still taiji and it gives him control of everything in creation and disconnects him from it

 

[QuasiYuri]

This will be your own opinion tho, not how taiji work

Even though its colorless its still taiji and it gives him control of everything in creation and disconnects him from it

That's going in the same direction as the statements and feats about him. So all proof-based.

His Colorless Taiji only allows him to summon phenomenons of the world actually. That's his main thing.
Although it doesn't matter much since it doesn't prevent 1-A either way. And just repeat the same sentence of the same scene.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

I should clarify some stuff a bit here.

For the tad bit about Yatou, his value is actually 100. Masada explained in K3's Visual Fanbook that he wanted the game to reach 100 but was limited to only 70 out of several technical limitations like spacing and color. That and Yatou is where he actually would be out of the fact his very Craving alone allows him to surpass all previous Gods even if he has no souls under his Law, with only Hajun being his superior. That and his Legion of Tenma's have their own values, and there's only like two of them whose Laws strength is reliant on Yatou's strength. Not that their Craving's value is on his level but that you need to surpass Yatou in order to outright avoid their effects (which again, only Hajun legitimately qualifies for).

Regarding the subject of Yakou and his Taikyoku Mukei, Madara's is Colorless, yes. But there is no doubt that it is still Taikyoku, which he got from Hajun himself to be his Hunting Dog (Shit Cleaner) in Tengu Dou.

What should be noted is that his Taikyoku at first was formless, which Mukei can roughly mean. This is evident on here and his value being 2, which really means nothing but is there.

This part in particular is a summary of what it grants him:

夜行は森羅万象を司る座に達しているため、これは厳密なところ異能ではない。単に宇宙の物理現象ならば何でも出来るということであり、世界法則を歪める異能とはまったく逆の部類と言える。

As Yakou has already reached the seat to rule over all of creation (Shinrabanshō/森羅万象), this is strictly speaking not an ability. What this means is that he can perform any physical phenomena (物理現象) of the universe, the opposite of the ability to distort the laws of the world.

The scan Infera linked earlier of Yakou when he got 10 Taikyoku was AFTER his and the EE gang's first encounter with the Tenma's (Morei and Akuro), where Mukei got even more refined and thus more complete to where he can be on a level of ability like the Tenma's.

日く型に嵌った太極を文字通り目にしたことで、夜行の太極は飛躍的にその完成度を上げている。
現段階で、能力的にはもはや天魔と近い領域に達しており、あとは彼独自の型….…すなわち夜行だけの色を見つける作業のみ。

As a result of literally seeing Taikyoku in the form of the sun, Yakou's own Taikyoku has dramatically improved in its perfection.
At this stage, his abilities have reached a level close to that of the Tenma (天魔), and the only thing left to do is to find his own unique form...a color unique to his own.

Just putting this out here.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Thanks for adding more precisions again.

Although tbh everyone should already know what was said about Yato's true value or about his Legion ; since it's litteraly something we accepted and applied already. I feel like some people just aren't aware of the past revisions before High 1-A.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

I think it's because not everyone has access to the VFB and only go off the VN...which isn't bad, but the VFB handbook helps since Masada gives a lot of info that needed to be explained like the strength of Gods, why Reinhard was "around" when Hajun came through to kill the Gods, him explaining what he actually meant when he said early-game Yakou is equal to Gold/Reinhard, how Taikyoku and Outflow/Atziluth aren't different from each other, lots of stuff that doesn't get brought up even though some of it is outdated with the whole Pantheon and other works Masada's doing like Avesta.

 

[Infera28]

Madara Colorless Taiji is the same as having no value tbf.

Also his very own profile (when he had Colorless Taiji) says that his abilities make him comparable to the Tenmas, as shown prior.

Color is the only desire or content of your taiji. Anyway, colorless or colored, it is still taiji

Singularity was also colorless taiji, and singularity is beyond the all creation and already accepted as 1-A

Having abilities comparable to the tenmas means that the barriers of Yaku are also 1-A

It can also be said the reason why they could not break Yakou's barriers was because Yakou's barriers transmitted the power of attack to a specific part of the barriers. So you could say that was why they could not break all the barriers in one attack

It actually is a point against 1-A. Gudo Briah users sure aren't 1-A beings.

Briah is already accepted as 1-A in wiki

 

[Regidian]

Color is the only desire or content of your taiji. Anyway, colorless or colored, it is still taiji

Singularity was also colorless taiji, and singularity is beyond the all creation and already accepted as 1-A

Having abilities comparable to the tenmas means that the barriers of Yaku are also 1-A

It can also be said the reason why they could not break Yakou's barriers was because Yakou's barriers transmitted the power of attack to a specific part of the barriers. So you could say that was why they could not break all the barriers in one attack


Briah is already accepted as 1-A in wiki

Using what is now 1-A in a thread that here to downgrade this 1-A is not the best thing no?

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

@Regidian Pretty sure it's more to bring up/defend/argue against the downgrade on why the Gods are currently as they are rn. At least methinks.

 

[Infera28]

Using what is now 1-A in a thread that here to downgrade this 1-A is not the best thing no?

Similar to the gods and taiji also singularity exists outside of creation and is immune to all changes in creation

世界に穿たれた孔の中、事象へ影響を及ぼさない無色の空間。

座の支配、世界法則に属さない場所の総称。

特異点で起きた事象は原則として、世界に影響を及ぼさないので当代の神が座で殺害されても世界の魂が道連れにならない。

There isn't any full transcendence gap between singularity, taiji and gods. That is what I want to say

So why do we suddenly have to put Yakou's the colorless taiji below singularity level?

And there is no difference between Briah and Atziluth. This was previously discussed and accepted on the wiki. Again that is what I want to say

 

[QuasiYuri]

Color is the only desire or content of your taiji. Anyway, colorless or colored, it is still taiji

Singularity was also colorless taiji, and singularity is beyond the all creation and already accepted as 1-A

Having abilities comparable to the tenmas means that the barriers of Yaku are also 1-A

They are 24D barriers. Can't have your cake and eat it.

It can also be said the reason why they could not break Yakou's barriers was because Yakou's barriers transmitted the power of attack to a specific part of the barriers. So you could say that was why they could not break all the barriers in one attack

It isn't Colorless Yakou and it only works with Ootake specifically as explained above.

Briah is already accepted as 1-A in wiki

Briah users sure aren't 1-A so far.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Similar to the gods and taiji also singularity exists outside of creation and is immune to all changes in creation

世界に穿たれた孔の中、事象へ影響を及ぼさない無色の空間。

座の支配、世界法則に属さない場所の総称。

特異点で起きた事象は原則として、世界に影響を及ぼさないので当代の神が座で殺害されても世界の魂が道連れにならない。

It's the opposite tho. What happens in the Singularity won't affect the world, as said by your own text.

So why do we suddenly have to put Yakou's the colorless taiji below singularity level?

Nobody does so.


Also I really don't want to be annoying by saying it again but repeating the same arguments isn't gonna make this thread advance, quite the opposite actually.

 

[Infera28]

They are 24D barriers. Can't have your cake and eat it.

Is Detective Comics 6D then? in current tiering system we can have 1-A dimensions so we can prove that something called 24D is actually 1-A. There isn't any difference between 1-A 5D, 1-A 6D and 1-A 24D. I thought our tiring system is no longer based on dimensions but higher infinites?

And idk what is the problem with creating 24 layered metaphysical and abstract dimensional barriers

Those dimensions prevented the blows of those beyond dualities, concepts, phenomena, laws, physics, reality Who see the whole creations as an picture and can paint it

I also found other evidence that even non-god character in the Avesta could reproduce all concepts, and that all things, dualities, concepts and phenomena were governed by the god's taiji

It isn't Colorless Yakou and it only works with Ootake specifically as explained above.

Yakou always had taij and his taiji was 2

彼は自分が何故太極をもつのか、さらに十より前の自分の過去をよく知らないなど、一般人であれば当然に疑念に思うであろう問題を抱えているが、彼自身はそのことに全く頓着していない。

初伝 太極 2

Someone who had a Taiji value 2 created those dimensional barriers

And Qliphoth said that Yako had a taiji from the beginning, it was only formless/colorless and and through the use of same taiji he reached the seat to rule over all creation

Briah users sure aren't 1-A so far.

Anyway, their tier is the same as the taiji, and it was already discussed and accepted. So I do not know what the problem is in here. You even agreed that Briah is no different from Taiji

It's the opposite tho. What happens in the Singularity won't affect the world, as said by your own text.

The singularity is outside the creation and what happens in the singularity has no effect on the creation, so why opposite should have effect? When it was also shown that they are fully disconnected and singularity had no effect on the creation. It is clear that the two are completely separate

 

[Darksmash]

I would just like to point out that while being called higher dimensional does not necessarily invalidate 1-A, however verses like Cthulhu Mythos and Umineko have clear infinite heirarchies, hence for them it won't be an issue

The issue comes for Shinza where 1-A is reached without infinite heirarchies, merely based on wordplay.

Also while Hadou Gods follow a painting analogy, it should be noted that the scan used for this "Reality>Painting" difference (The "no matter how realistic the painting it cannot burn reality") was literally the scan used for the difference between simple higher dimensions in Shinza. Hence I think applying it to Hadou Gods and simply assuming addition of extra higher dimensions is part of this "Realism" of the painting, when this description was used for normal higher dimensions of the verse is kinda weird in the first place

 

[PrinceofPein]

They are 24D barriers. Can't have your cake and eat it.

Powered by someone with taikyoku
Lol its like saying an ordinary sword been held by a 1A can't harm another 1A cause its made from a 3D world


Okay irrelevant to the current argument
But I think this kind of proved my point when I said if the throne god dies, the world will carry on normally or can you explain better

特異点で起きた事象は原則として、世界に影響を及ぼさないので当代の神が座で殺害されても世界の魂が道連れにならない。



And yes you are right, repeating arguments is tiring and annoying

 

[QuasiYuri]

Is Detective Comics 6D then? in current tiering system we can have 1-A dimensions so we can prove that something called 24D is actually 1-A. There isn't any difference between 1-A 5D, 1-A 6D and 1-A 24D. I thought our tiring system is no longer based on dimensions but higher infinites?

The higher infinities they are supposed to transcend are these very higher dimensions. Do you like, know why Shinza is at its current tier?

Also Idc about Detective Comics and doubt it is the same case.

Those dimensions prevented the blows of those beyond dualities, concepts, phenomena, laws, physics, reality Who see the whole creations as an picture and can paint it

I could make the same argument for any creator and abstract beings.

"Why isn't Pikachu 1-A? He hurt the creator of everything who originated all concepts such as time, space, and even its opposite",
"Why isn't Superman 1-A? He hurt abstract platonic beings who exist in everything and transcend the multiverse"

Feats just aren't going in the deduction of 1-A, and even what you are saying is just a mere R/F difference.

I also found other evidence that even non-god character in the Avesta could reproduce all concepts, and that all things, dualities, concepts and phenomena were governed by the god's taiji

It would actually be more evidence of how "all concepts" isn't litteral.
Hell, Mercurius revolution was done especially because he broke some of them.

Also I'm doubtful about DI eng trad, not gonna accept Avesta scans w/o raws.

Yaou always had taij and his taiji was 2

彼は自分が何故太極をもつのか、さらに十より前の自分の過去をよく知らないなど、一般人であれば当然に疑念に思うであろう問題を抱えているが、彼自身はそのことに全く頓着していない。

初伝 太極 2

Someone who had a Taiji value 2 created those dimensional barriers

And Qliphoth said that Yako had a taiji from the beginning, it was only formless/colorless and and through the use of same taiji he reached the seat to rule over all creation.

I never said he didn't have Taiji tho...?

Also implying that Mukei is the same as a normal Taiji is flat out wrong. Even his profile explains that.

And it sure wasn't the same as against Ootake either.

nyway, their tier is the same as the taiji, and it was already discussed and accepted. So I do not know what the problem is in here. You even agreed that Briah is no different from Taiji

It currently isn't. They are tier 7, not 1.

Tg singularity is outside the creation and what happens in the singularity has no effect on the creation, so why opposite should have effect? When it was also shown that they are fully disconnected and singularity had no effect on the creation. It is clear that the two are completely separate

Which isn't a proof of 1-A transcendance. In fact even random parallel worlds can have the same "one won't affect the other" thing.
Unless you somehow see each transcending the others on a 1-A scale.

So far everything you gave in term of transcendance is a mere R/F one, which isn't enough.

Either way, please way a bit for more staff opinions.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Powered by someone with taikyoku
Lol its like saying an ordinary sword been held by a 1A can't harm another 1A cause its made from a 3D world

If a tier 3 uses a water gun, it'll still be a water gun.
Yakou can't change things at that time, only summon them.

Okay irrelevant to the current argument
But I think this kind of proved my point when I said if the throne god dies, the world will carry on normally or can you explain better

特異点で起きた事象は原則として、世界に影響を及ぼさないので当代の神が座で殺害されても世界の魂が道連れにならない。

It's how it works in a normal case of succession, but it is different if nobody takes their place.

And yes you are right, repeating arguments is tiring and annoying

Yeah. I'm just answering because I don't want anything misunderstood to pass, but I really would appreciate more activity from the staff on this thread.

 

[PrinceofPein]

.

Yeah. I'm just answering because I don't want anything misunderstood to pass, but I really would appreciate more activity from the staff on this thread.

Maybe you can ask antvasima to help us call in more staff to evaluate

 

[Birgi126]

Is Detective Comics 6D then?

6th Dimension and 5th Dimension in DC aren’t accepted as Spatial Dimensions here, just higher realms.
Also why do people like bringing examples from other series that are half of the time are wrong examples (Like in Umineko’s case, where they doubt 1-A because her 1-B key was called higher dimensional...)?

 

[QuasiYuri]

Maybe you can ask antvasima to help us call in more staff to evaluate

I asked him in PM one or two hours ago.

 

[ZERO7772]

You guys really need staff opinions here.

This has been going in cycles and the defending side will NEVER change their stance

 

[Darksmash]

I think in the end this is going to boil down to singularity's tier

Since Singularity should have the same ontological properties as Hadou Gods, so it's tier=their tier

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Zero’s right. While I’m trying to progress K3 and checking my sources right from the VN’s, this threads really gonna go nowhere with the back and forth arguments.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think in the end this is going to boil down to singularity's tier

Since Singularity should have the same ontological properties as Hadou Gods, so it's tier=their tier

Tbh the evidences in the High 1-A thread nearly weren't talking about the Singularity at all, and the opposite is technically also true.

 

[QuasiYuri]

But yeah, I agree that we definitely need more staff opinions, repeating the same things over and over just make it annoying for them to evaluate.

Already asked Antvasima, so all we have to do is wait.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Probably just my opinion, unless anyone has new arguments let's please stop posting repeated arguments here till the current ones have been evaluated by the staffs

 

[QuasiYuri]

Probably just my opinion, unless anyone has new arguments lest please stop posting repeated arguments here till the current ones have been evaluated by the staffs

Can't agree more.
Also if someone bring new arguments, please try to bring the raws alongside the translation. We need to be reliable, after all.

 

[Antvasima]

If some of our knowledgeable members can construct good summary posts that include all of the relevant arguments and evidence for each side, I can send notifications to many of our staff members to ask them to help out afterwards, as it is unlikely that they will read the entire thread.

 

[Infera28]

The higher infinities they are supposed to transcend are these very higher dimensions. Do you like, know why Shinza is at its current tier?

Also Idc about Detective Comics and doubt it is the same case.

What you are currently doing is discarding dozens of feats and statements just because once in dozens hours long novels a 25-dimensional barrier created by 1-A taiji blocked some attacks. In fact, it was said in the same fight that the picture/creation could not harm reality/gods with any degree of potency, but the dimensions created by someone from picture prevented the picture from being hit and those dimensions were made by someone who, in your own words (not my words), was not out of the picture and used picture's phenomena. Even though it has been shown many times that gods are the root of phenomena and transcend them and they are disconnected from all things in picture

世界に穿たれた孔の中、事象へ影響を及ぼさない無色の空間。

座の支配、世界法則に属さない場所の総称。

特異点で起きた事象は原則として、世界に影響を及ぼさないので当代の神が座で殺害されても世界の魂が道連れにならない。

This incident even contradicted any other statement in the fight itself In fact, what you are currently proving most of all is proving that it was an outlier or 1-A metaphysical dimensional barriers because all other feats and statements are against it

1-A in tiering system is simply going completely beyond a certain amount of infinities. Nothing proves that the dimensions that prevented blows were not beyond those infinites. You can have 10 dimensions beyond 1-A called 1-A 10-D and those dimensional barriers were not normal at all. They could transfer the power of the blow to a specific part and they were anti magic too

これらは衝撃を相転移する絶対障壁であり、さらに最硬度の防咒を施してある。(同時に自身は瞬間移動を使って後退)

The last time I checked, the normal dimensions could not transfer the power of the attacks to a specific part and be anti-magic. They were cleary metaphysical abstract dimensions not some normal higher infinites or some string dimensions.

It would actually be more evidence of how "all concepts" isn't litteral.
Hell, Mercurius revolution was done especially because he broke some of them.

Also I'm doubtful about DI eng trad, not gonna accept Avesta scans w/o raws.

Nothing proves that they are not literal, they are actually supported by anything else. a 25-dimensional barrier from a Japanese novel that no one can read can't debunk dozens of feats and statements. This is actually the opposite and makes dimensional barrier 1-A or outlier and and I've just explained a million times about Mercury thing, so I do not need to repeat it again

Avesta is being translated by someone who was the most knowledgeable member of shinza in wiki and read all novels in japanese

I also have the same request from you. Please send the english translation of whole yakou fight 0 to 100 before and after. We can not downgrade an entire verse with incomplete information. Especially since Sleepy also disagreed with what you said

Also implying that Mukei is the same as a normal Taiji is flat out wrong. Even his profile explains that.

I do not know why it is so difficult to understand. Whether colored or colorless, or with different abilities and functions, it was still Taiji, and we have been arguing all along that Taiji is a 1-A nature. So if it turns out that Taiji is 1-A, these dimensions were made by someone with 1-A power. Taiji is fundamentally 1-A in both shinza and philsophy. It does not matter if it is a manipulation of laws or reality or phenomena or weather or elements or jungles. A person who is 1-A, if the only ability he shows is the manipulation of pebbles, then he is still 1-A and it is 1-A pebble manip. All it takes is to mix the pebble manip with a infinitesimal bit of its own power.

It currently isn't. They are tier 7, not 1.

If instead of trying to get verses a downgrade with second-hand information, you read it yourself and knew it or at least read previous threads, we did not have so much trouble explaining everything now

https://vsbattles.com/threads/beginning-of-the-ephemeral-moment-die-ewigkeit-upgrade.109482/

I never said they are 1-A themselves? They can only temporarily do the work of atziluth through the briah. This is a temporary 1-A hax

 

[Gemstic]

I'd like to fix a translation about Mercurius.

Here the translation in the English version is partially incorrect.

1) The actual text says: "No one is capable of understanding the language. Even the Snake of the「Throne」who is reciting in the language, is just the remains of a myth that has been forgotten down to its concept."

2) The next text says: "Therefore, he doesn't know his own craving. It is possible for him to imagine it, predict it or even assume it, but it is impossible for him to ascertain what his true self sought when he reached the「Throne」."

I think everyone would feel that text 1) and 2) make more sense after the correction I made.

So, we can speculate that Mercurius is an unusual one because his origin is peculiar to begin with. He is simply a remnant existence from a myth that is conceptually forgotten. If 'being forgotten on a conceptual level' means 'nonexistence at a similar level', 'being part of something whose concept has been forgotten' could give him 'nonexistence on a conceptual level'.

It also makes sense that he can't ascertain the information about himself, despite being such a mighty existence, due to the concept about the myth he was a part of (and consequently his own concept) not existing any longer. Just take a look at this information about his Nonexistent Physiology with what I mentioned here in mind.

I won't say anything more on this. It's up to the knowledgeable members on the topic of NEP to decide whether it changes the type of his nonexsitent physiology or not.

 

[QuasiYuri]

What you are currently doing is discarding dozens of feats and statements just because once in dozens hours long novels a 25-dimensional barrier created by 1-A taiji blocked some attacks.

Dozens of feats and statements which aren't 1-A.
You are also taking it backward, you start BY the assumption that Taiji is 1-A, and that Yakou somehow modified the dimensional barriers to make them 1-A despite his powers litteraly not being able to do so.

Also it's 24D, not 25D.

In fact, it was said in the same fight that the picture/creation could not harm reality/gods with any degree of potency, but the dimensions created by someone from picture prevented the picture from being hit and those dimensions were made by someone who, in your own words (not my words), was not out of the picture and used picture's phenomena. Even though it has been shown many times that gods are the root of phenomena and transcend them and they are disconnected from all things in picture

世界に穿たれた孔の中、事象へ影響を及ぼさない無色の空間。

座の支配、世界法則に属さない場所の総称。

特異点で起きた事象は原則として、世界に影響を及ぼさないので当代の神が座で殺害されても世界の魂が道連れにならない。

This incident even contradicted any other statement in the fight itself In fact, what you are currently proving most of all is proving that it was an outlier or 1-A metaphysical dimensional barriers because all other feats and statements are against it

Several concretes feats will always be above your personal deduction of what a statement means.

Not to mention that it's not rare for demiurges with those statements to be affected by their creation, Arceus is a proof of this.

And there's also the fact that most of what you sent rn isn't even transcendance at all.

1-A in tiering system is simply going completely beyond a certain amount of infinities. Nothing proves that the dimensions that prevented blows were not beyond those infinites. You can have 10 dimensions beyond 1-A called 1-A 10-D and those dimensional barriers were not normal at all. They could transfer the power of the blow to a specific part and they were anti magic too


The last time I checked, the normal dimensions could not transfer the power of the attacks to a specific part and be anti-magic. They were cleary metaphysical abstract dimensions not some normal higher infinites or some string dimensions.

The infinities are the very dimensions using the exact same terminology as these here.

They are treated the same as higher dimensions and use the same terminology. Blocking spells isn't really that incredible.

Nothing proves that they are not literal, they are actually supported by anything else. a 25-dimensional barrier from a Japanese novel that no one can read can't debunk dozens of feats and statements. This is actually the opposite and makes dimensional barrier 1-A or outlier and and I've just explained a million times about Mercury thing, so I do not need to repeat it again

Except what we both explained.

You explained a part of Merc thing which wasn't even what was pointed*

Also current 1-A is FROM K3. The fact that you later say I'm not reading previous revision is just ironic at that point.

Avesta is being translated by someone who was the most knowledgeable member of shinza in wiki and read all novels in japanese

Besides the lack of proof, it doesn't change the fact that there's no raws given and that some of your screens litteraly have miswritten words.

I also have the same request from you. Please send the english translation of whole yakou fight 0 to 100 before and after. We can not downgrade an entire verse with incomplete information. Especially since Sleepy also disagreed with what you said

I sent the entire context and gave the raws. If you disagree, bring proof.

Also you litteraly use one line sentences here and there, most of which being mistranslation, so you can't really talk about "incomplete information" when there's no 1-A feats at all.

I do not know why it is so difficult to understand. Whether colored or colorless, or with different abilities and functions, it was still Taiji, and we have been arguing all along that Taiji is a 1-A nature. So if it turns out that Taiji is 1-A, these dimensions were made by someone with 1-A power. Taiji is fundamentally 1-A in both shinza and philsophy. It does not matter if it is a manipulation of laws or reality or phenomena or weather or elements or jungles. A person who is 1-A, if the only ability he shows is the manipulation of pebbles, then he is still 1-A and it is 1-A pebble manip. All it takes is to mix the pebble manip with a infinitesimal bit of its own power.

If I use a water gun it is still a water gun no matter how strong I am. Mukei's power is only to bring the water gun, not modify it.

In fact you are still going by the idea that 1-A is a given, so all proofs are countered by said given idea.
Problem is that it is not.

If instead of trying to get verses a downgrade with second-hand information, you read it yourself and knew it or at least read previous threads, we did not have so much trouble explaining everything now

Ironic when you litteraly use mistranslations, one to five lines sentences, and think K3 is somehow a lesser proof despite being the current reason for 1-A.

Also there's so much I would like to say against this accusation, but I'll just answer it a bit at the end.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/beginning-of-the-ephemeral-moment-die-ewigkeit-upgrade.109482/

I never said they are 1-A themselves? They can only temporarily do the work of atziluth through the briah. This is a temporary 1-A hax

They just are hax because of opposing the law. If Taiji was 1-A in itself, Gudo Briah would be full 1-A.

Also we litteraly just decided that we should stop commenting, so why do you do so right after?

Especially when some of your arguments litteraly are "this is a given, you don't know anything and just want to downgrade Shinza" (the second part starting from the end).
And to this part I want to say: you litteraly never batted a eye for Morei having Sukuna's ability in her P&A, but now that it is a downgrade, it means people are ignorants?
I want good Shinza profiles, not profiles based on having the strongest characters when their feats aren't corresponding to their tier, and with only this getting any attention.

Now let's wait the staff.