Divine Dimensional Dance 2nd round: Shinza Gods downgrade

[QuasiYuri]

Some feats performed by characters weaker than gods:

Reinhard's briah destroyed concept of coordinates and distance. Coordinates and Distance exist in every dimension, all reality and define them

Ferederica transcended concepts of space-time and Bahlavan couldn't be defined by concepts

Are you trying to argue 1-A Briah?

You yourself said that Shinza was very flowery, and the Avesta translations are of poor quality (even mispelling words). So unless the raw is brought I don't think it would be usable.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Anyway, I may have rushed some of my answers (because of having to rewrite everything a second time + time being limited for me rn), but I think it doesn't need more than my current proofs and previous arguments.
Also since equally big arguments and scans from the opposition arrived, it means we got what was missing.

Hence, I think staff voting could maybe start, unless the opposition has more arguments to give, in which case they can do as they please.

I doubt any side will fully convince the other either way, but I think I presented everything I wanted so I'm personally satisfied on that side. The actual decision will be that of the staff.

 

[Birgi126]

Ferederica transcended concepts of space-time

This literally just refers to her attacks coming from both past and future at the same time, your own scan points this out: "Attacks already dealt with coming from the past, as well as attacks that have yet to be released coming from the future, are being used and about to be used in this fight."

and Bahlavan couldn't be defined by concepts

Not being defined by concepts =/= transcending them, moreover, this is flavory text.

Reinhard's briah destroyed concept of coordinates and distance.

This is also not literal, it just refers to the fact that no one can enter to castle unless deemed worthy. Your own scan explains this is what it means.

 

[Infera28]

Actually it's only Hegemony who "can't fit" because their law has to fight against creation itself. Gudou Gods are just fine.
And Marie was a Gudou God at this time, which is the kind that isn't concerned by the act of painting over the world.

What?! Mercurius's law already created and encompassed all creation, all creation was his law and governed by it

Why his law should destroy his own creation or law? It is like saying Mercurius's law destroys Mercurius's law. Only problem was Merc's size

You were far too large an existence, and the world too small to hold your grand being. The world is small.

Mercurius even held all creation and stars in palm of his hand and it was hardly more significant than a strand of hair for him. Even hadou gladsheim was big enough for containing stars

Gudou God can fit in creation because unlike hadou gods they don't devour and encompass creation. but they are living universes too. Only small from outside. Its basically some paradoxical shit. Small from outside and universe from inside

その法を構成する単位が宇宙という規模であり、ゆえにそれのみをもって独立した世界となり得るものを太極と定義する。

人の形をした天であり、人間大の宇宙そのもの。

己自身を一つの異世界に変えること。

Marie never entered creation. Ren only formed her soul as holy relic and later formed Marie's human sized image from his own perspective. It doesn't debunk dozens statements for taiji transcending anything, everything and existing outside of them too. Not to mention how every concept simple or complex is governed by laws and laws holds no water to Briah, let alone Atziluth

Besides the first scan being a bit hyperbolic (as explained prior) and the second saying "near infinite" laws (although the actual number doesn't matter), the fact that they transcend the world would be a mere layer of Reality/Fiction difference, which isn't anywhere enough for 1-A.

near infinite is also infinite, how i can cross near infinite distance without moving at infinite speed?

but if there is only near infinite laws in creation and taiji is something else than taiji is still greater than every law. It even stated unlike any other law taiji fills all creation and controls it and any law is mere physics but taiji

It isn't mere layer of reality/fiction. They are disconnected from all things in creation, everything in creation regardless of potency is still picture to them. It dozens times stated creation is picture and they conceptually paint picture, so even concepts are pictures to taiji and painted

I also found another statement for Throne transcending absolute anything

いと高き所に坐したまま総てを見通し人知の及ばぬ力を振るう何者かがいる、総てを超越して達する至高の座。

It refers to the overwritting tho. With the "destroying" part.
Also Briah users have the exact same statements, and they sure aren't 1-A.

It six times stated Taiji transcends laws, makes them void, paints them and etc. They also can either destroy all laws and creation and then create their desired creation or they can overwrite current creation. In both options they transcend creation. Transcendence six times was stated so they have full transcendence over all laws and concepts.

1-A Briah already was accepted: https://vsbattles.com/threads/beginning-of-the-ephemeral-moment-die-ewigkeit-upgrade.109482/

They are unbounded from their perspective. However things like Twilight Beach or being countered by non-Taiji things go against this statement.

It was said by hadou god Isaac that the gods have no boundaries. Gods are omniscient so it was true.

Also whole rea and issack interaction was writer attempt in giving as much info and context as possible to readers.

Deducing yourself what phenomena means is a big assumption. Thoughts are differenciated from concepts too.

It is referring to Onmyoudou from Ryuusui's perspective, which is an art used by her and others, and isn't duality-based for sure.

All phenomena is including higher dimensions, space-time and physics. It is in defintion. Search google if you want. Unless you are against definition

Concept: an abstract idea.

Idea: a thought or suggestion as to a possible course of action.

Duality thing was confirmed in atwiki too

陰と陽にも属さない技術として枠外にある法。

Also this was the author's attempt to give information to the reader through Ryuusui, and it was also in line with Taiji philosophy. Both are related to dualities

Ryuusui wasn't a normal person too

Intelligence: Due to her Distortion ability, she holds knowledge of how the world works along with its laws and is experienced in the Ying and Yang arts

Philosophy and others work shouldn't be used as proof. Otherwise lots of Buddhism based stuff would be 1-A.

I was only trying to saying taiji in shinza and masada's works was always same as taiji in philsophy. Both are about dualities, root of existence, reality and etc. So why they aren't same? because of downplaying verse i got

You know, this argument of "it's flowery" can be used for A LOT of your own statements.

Also nobody talked about string dimensions. And Singularity having things such as time goes against your point.

I proved that the word higher dimensions and dimensions are also used allegorically in shinza and another phase of physics can really be anything. metaphysics, pataphysics and... especially because it countless times stated taiji and even briah transcends physics and isn't bounded by them

Time only existed in twilight beach and twilight beach is only a small colored part of singularity. It was said by Ren that place did resemble a picture (twilight beach with sea, clouds, sands and time) but at its core it was a completely blank slate. There also is higher levels and stages in singularity, that's why drilling into singularity is necessary. Twilight Beach and time were a mere small part of singularity

In order to reach the Throne, the challenger may opt to drill through the Singularity using their laws , and without "strength" that matches or exceeds the "depth" of the Singularity, they will never succeed in doing so as it will be too deep. Such was the case of Tenma Yato's desperate struggle.

Singularity in core is devoid of all laws, physics, reason and logic so time can't exist in it

Magic and Briah also have these statements yeah, which reinforce the idea that it isn't 1-A transcendance at all, especially with Briah which is downscaled Emanation. Otherwise it would apply to them too.

1-A Briah already was accepted in wiki

Also it uses "geometrical space", clearly going toward spatial dimensions, with Ryuusui (whom you are using as proof for your own evidences) considering it as linked to Taiji.

I will repeat again, space was just an obstacle before reaching to Taiji or something made by Taiji as obstacle. This does not mean that Taiji is limited by space. Nothing in your text implied that.

Every point in time are reunited here, so there's no distinction between the 3 yeah.

Idk why transcending time for 1-A is required at all or why you can't have 1-A time manip but it only downgrades singularity. It doesn't debunk fact everything in creation is picture to gods and they are external to everything, nor it debunks dualities

It says that the flow of time is meaningless. Because it is frozen in time.

What is point of existing time but frozen in singularity? it was cleary metaphor

However they were moving and drilling through singularity and throne/last stage of singularity was devoid of the concept of time. Time only existed in twilight beach aka an small colored part of singularity which was created by Mercurius for Marie.

Also there's the fact that it is referring to Merc's law and Throne not caring about paradox.

According to description page of throne, there is no concept of time in throne. This was on the throne description page and had nothing to do with Mercury or Mercury's throne

座には時間の概念が存在しない。

It was also said that the reason Mercury's law is strange is that despite the lack of a concept of time in throne, he can still manipulate time. Lacking concept of time in throne is an important part of story

その理は 永劫回帰。端的に言えば「リセット」。彼が座に在る限り、彼の望まぬ終わりを迎えれば全ては零へと立ち戻る。 彼の 渇望は 「自分の望む結末以外は認めない」「やり直したい」 死の瞬間に「こんな結末は嫌だ」と流出を行い、神となって過去に戻った彼は、 永き時を生きた後に、自らの 自滅因子であるラインハルトと喰い合い自滅する。 その際にまた「こんな結末は嫌だ」と流出を行う…という無限ループになっている。 まるで卵が先かニワトリが先かのパラドックスのようだが、座に時間の概念がなく、 彼の渇望は時間軸を無視したものであったため、こんな奇妙なことが起こっている。 既知の世界と自らの生に飽いているが、その既知の中で出会ったマルグリット(マリィ)に「唯一愛した既知」と恋し、彼女に新世界の女神たる資質を見出した彼は「彼女の胸に抱かれて死ぬ」ことを自らの終焉と定め行動を開始する。

Why would most of Shinza be flowery but not a one line sentence with no context ...?

In the context, Ren's power was time manipulation, and he saw the power of Reinhard's spear and said that it was impossible to stop it in time and time was meager to his spear.

It is supported by Ren vs Reinhard vs Mercurius too. Ren failed in stopping anyone in time

The thing is that there's a lack of compatibility between Mercurius and his predecessors because he revolutionned everything by giving the concept of multiverse to the world. If they truly were unaffected by all expansions, something like that wouldn't create any problem.

According to the texts you sent yourself, Mercury created a more mysterious world than the former gods just by changing the throne system

I do not know why in hell it means that the multiverse he created caused problems for the former gods.

Those gods already were dead so nothing created problems for them and it mentioned changing throne's system. If anything throne's system should effect them not multiverse.

Also you absolutely ignored the fact that Yakou barriers (Yakou only being able to summon phenomenons from the world at the time) successfully blocked 3 attacks done through Taiji overall.

Wasn't this already debunked by sleepy and he even sent evidence? and 1-A dimensional barrier is a thing. I will leave debunking it for people who read KKK tho

You yourself said that Shinza was very flowery, and the Avesta translations are of poor quality (even mispelling words). So unless the raw is brought I don't think it would be usable.

It wasn't flowery, Ferederica actually transcended concepts of space-time and fired attacks from past and future. Bahlavan also received a whole new form, even incomprehensible to Magsarion and Magsarion was close to Atziluth degree

Avesta is also translated by people who can fully read japanese and even read KKK ancient kanjis

This literally just refers to her attacks coming from both past and future at the same time, your own scan points this out: "Attacks already dealt with coming from the past, as well as attacks that have yet to be released coming from the future, are being used and about to be used in this fight."

She transcended concepts of space-time and then her attacks came from past and future. Don't change wording for lowball

Not being defined by concepts =/= transcending them, moreover, this is flavory text.

You right if my existence can't be defined by concept of dimensions, infinite, dualities, numbers, size and etc then i'm wall level

This is also not literal, it just refers to the fact that no one can enter to castle unless deemed worthy. Your own scan explains this is what it means.

And in order to doing that he ****** concepts of coordinates and distance

 

[Infera28]

That was my last post anyway i don't care about this thread and downgrade anymore.

Especially when all the knowledgeable members of shinza are leaving wiki or no longer caring about it, I can't argue against a whole downgrade thread by myself.

So now moderators can check our arguments. I'm done.

 

[Elizhaa]

After reading the new arguments, I aim to give more inputs when the thread is nearing its conclusion.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out Elizhaa.

All staff members here: What seem to be the summarised conclusions here so far?

 

[Gemstic]

I fixed the translation of some things that were mentioned in the OP (everyone involved in the original translation of the following raw content is highly appreciated for their work and efforts)

Gods higher dimensional nature

1) なのに無傷 。 まったく無傷 。 薄皮一枚切り裂けない 。 それは紫織の 拳を受け止めたときと同様で 、 頑強さと言うより別位相の物理を目に したかのようだった
"And yet, he was unharmed. Completely unharmed. Not even a thin layer of skin was torn off. It was the same as when he received Shiori's fist, and it was as if I saw another phase of physics rather than stubbornness."

-> And yet, he was unharmed. Completely unharmed. Not even a thin layer of skin was torn off. Instead of calling it "sturdiness", it was as if he witnessed the physics of another phase, the same as when he stopped Shiori's fist.

2) 喩えるなら 、 絵の中でどれだけ猛火を描写しようと 、 それが現実の 人間を燃やせるわけがないのと同じ 。
To put it in another way, no matter how raging the fire is depicted in a painting, it can't burn a real person.

-> To illustrate it, no matter how raging the fire is depicted in a painting, it can't burn a real person.

Morei's flames/Law instance

4) 節操無しが。恥知らずめ。おまえに矜持はないというのか──
Honorless. Shameless. They had no pride in themselves--

-> Honorless. Shameless. Do you have no pride?--

5) ゆえに今直ぐ討たんと旋回する母禮に対し、夜行は牽制の術を放ちながらため息をついた。
Thus Yakou sighed while releasing a restraining technique against Morei (母禮), who turned around immediately.

-> Thus, Yakou sighed while unleashing a restraining technique against Morei who just turned around to attack.

6) 変わらない不遜な笑みと、視線だけで焼却する魔の眼光が交差する。
That unchanging arrogant smile intersected with the demonic eyes that can incinerate in their line of sight.

-> That unchanging arrogant smile intersected with the demonic eyes that can incinerate things with a look.

7) 「相も変わらずつれないな。いったい誰と戦っている？」
"This has not changed. Who are you fighting?"

-> "Man, you're cold as ever. Just who are you fighting?"

8) 宙にある大気、僅かな塵芥、更には空間そのものさえも消滅してのけるほどの業火。
The atmosphere in the air, small amounts of dust, even space itself were being extinguished.

-> It was hellfire that could annihilate the air in the space, minute dust particles, and even the space itself.

9) されど、もはや届かない。
But it no longer came.

-> Even so, it could no longer reach him.

10) 空間すら焼き消すというのなら、彼はその空間そのものに次元の断層を生み出した。
Even if it were to be burnt out, he created a dimensional dislocation in the space itself.

-> It may be potent enough to even burn away the space, but he created a dimensional dislocation in the space itself.

11) 位相を三つは焼き尽くすも、展開された相は七。総てを滅却することは出来ず寸前にて停止する。
Of the seven that were developed, three of the phases were burnt to nothing. It could not destroy them all and stopped just in front of him.

-> Though three phases were burnt to nothing, there were seven phases deployed in total. It could not destroy them all and stopped just in front of him.

12) 驚愕は止められたことではなかった。これらの背を押すアレの存在、それをいま確信したから….
Her astonishment did not stop there. She was certain that there was something behind them.

-> Her astonishment did not stop there. It was because she had now made certain of its existence that was spurring them on...

Sukuna + Ootake instance

13) 躱す必要一切無しと、応えたのは摩多羅夜行。
It was Yakou Madara who had responded without hesitation.

-> It was Yakou Madara who had responded as if there was simply no need to dodge the attack.

14) 雅にかざした掌にて具現したのは時空の暇いとまによる障壁。
What was embodied in the palm of his hand that was held gracefully was a barrier of space-time.

-> On his palm that was gracefully held up, a barrier formed by the separation of space-time materialized.

15) 随神相の一撃さえ、そよ風の如しと防ぎきった。
Even the blow of the Kamunagara can be repelled as if it were like a gentle breeze.

-> It even managed to defend against a blow of the Kamunagara as if it were just a gentle breeze.

That's all from me for now. It might not change anything significantly, but this contribution is made in the hope that this thread would lead to a satisfying outcome eventually.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for your effort in helping out. It is very appreciated.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Good enough, although I should note that 頑強 also means something like "sturdiness" and "toughness", which actually makes more sense than saying stubbornness even though it also means that too.

Edit: Ah, didn't see they corrected that already. But yeah, it means that and in contexts like this, it makes a lot more sense.

 

[Ningenron]

Just delete The verse. I mean Like Every Shinza supporter has left the Site or Doesn't even care about the verse Anymore.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Thanks for pointing out these.

"Physics of another phase" sounds like an even better confirmation of the higher D idea actually.

And the last part support the idea that the dimensional dislocation have the power of blocking laws by themselves.

So I think it holds some significance.

 

[PrinceofPein]

And the last part support the idea that the dimensional dislocation have the power of blocking laws by themselves

The wiki standard allows 1A space shenanigans
just saying

 

[QuasiYuri]

The wiki standard allows 1A space shenanigans
just saying

But not 24D stuff being 1-A.
Nor when the proof of 1-A is that these dimensional shenanigans shouldn't block even the weakest taiji.

 

[BleedingPeach]

Just delete The verse. I mean Like Every Shinza supporter has left the Site or Doesn't even care about the verse Anymore.

Please, if there's no meaning in your response, then just refrain from even saying something. You're not helping.

 

[PrinceofPein]

But not 24D stuff being 1-A.
Nor when the proof of 1-A is that these dimensional shenanigans shouldn't block even the weakest taiji.

Well what do I know, I hope red put his input one las time tho

 

[Nero]

Just delete The verse. I mean Like Every Shinza supporter has left the Site or Doesn't even care about the verse Anymore.

You do know that everyone can get tired for scaling something right?


PS: If that is all you needed to say then stop. This 2nd round thread is already more serious than the first one. Literally members are trying to prevent this downgrade

 

[QuasiYuri]

Like I said I'm mostly not gonna answer entire bigass block from now on, mainly because it is repeating the same arguments in different ways for both sides, making it a waste of time and energy.

However, regarding the DI scan about infinite concepts which was used more than one time, it is something that doesn't exist in the original:

At 13:15, Merc's statement about that whole "infinite concepts" thing was actually said as this:

蛇は、永劫狂し続けているのである。透徹した思慮と極限を億も超えた知識の果てに、辿り着いたのは愚の境地。

ただ流れ出すのみの影となり、宇宙を覆いつくした妄執こそ総てなのだ。理性など遥か昔に失って、今や残っているのは一つしかない。

The snake was eternally insane. At the end of his lucid thoughts that exceeded the limits of a billion (億), he has arrived at a state of foolishness.

All that is left is the delusion that has become a shadow that only flows out and covers the universe (宇宙). His reason has been gone for a long time, and now there is only one thing left.

So I would like to use this instance as a reminder that while Dies Irae is the only translated VN, it doesn't necessarily make it more reliable, and everyone should still take the time to check their sources.

In fact it nearly makes K3, ParaLost, etc... a bit more reliable, since there's no choice but to use and show the raws to make others see what the translation is based on and all.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Looks like 1-A to me, just saying. I know the language is flowery, though.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Like I said I'm mostly not gonna answer entire bigass block from now on, mainly because it is repeating the same arguments in different ways for both sides, making it a waste of time and energy.

However, regarding the DI scan about infinite concepts which was used more than one time, it is something that doesn't exist in the original:
At 13:15, Merc's statement about that whole "infinite concepts" thing was actually said as this:

蛇は、永劫狂し続けているのである。透徹した思慮と極限を億も超えた知識の果てに、辿り着いたのは愚の境地。

ただ流れ出すのみの影となり、宇宙を覆いつくした妄執こそ総てなのだ。理性など遥か昔に失って、今や残っているのは一つしかない。

The snake was eternally insane. At the end of his lucid thoughts that exceeded the limits of a billion (億), he has arrived at a state of foolishness.

All that is left is the delusion that has become a shadow that only flows out and covers the universe (宇宙). His reason has been gone for a long time, and now there is only one thing left.

So I would like to use this instance as a reminder that while Dies Irae is the only translated VN, it doesn't necessarily make it more reliable, and everyone should still take the time to check their sources.

In fact it nearly makes K3, ParaLost, etc... a bit more reliable, since there's no choice but to use and show the raws to make others see what the translation is based on and all.

I bought the originally translated game and it says infinite, I'm sure any fan translations does not matter at this point.
Same way the kanji in naruto mangas are stars but OG translations says planet

P.S: the guy that made that video said this and I quote
"Published on Sep 22, 2016
Re-uploaded in better quality. The climatic battle between Reinhard and Mercurius in Rea's route. Subtitles added by me.
Translations may not all be accurate."

Please let's refrain from using fan scans/translations for a piece of work that has been translated officially

 

[PrinceofPein]

Like I said I'm mostly not gonna answer entire bigass block from now on, mainly because it is repeating the same arguments in different ways for both sides, making it a waste of time and energy.

However, regarding the DI scan about infinite concepts which was used more than one time, it is something that doesn't exist in the original:
At 13:15, Merc's statement about that whole "infinite concepts" thing was actually said as this:

蛇は、永劫狂し続けているのである。透徹した思慮と極限を億も超えた知識の果てに、辿り着いたのは愚の境地。

ただ流れ出すのみの影となり、宇宙を覆いつくした妄執こそ総てなのだ。理性など遥か昔に失って、今や残っているのは一つしかない。

The snake was eternally insane. At the end of his lucid thoughts that exceeded the limits of a billion (億), he has arrived at a state of foolishness.

All that is left is the delusion that has become a shadow that only flows out and covers the universe (宇宙). His reason has been gone for a long time, and now there is only one thing left.

So I would like to use this instance as a reminder that while Dies Irae is the only translated VN, it doesn't necessarily make it more reliable, and everyone should still take the time to check their sources.

In fact it nearly makes K3, ParaLost, etc... a bit more reliable, since there's no choice but to use and show the raws to make others see what the translation is based on and all.

I bought the originally translated game and it says infinite, I'm sure any fan translations does not matter at this point.
Same way the kanji in naruto mangas are stars but OG translations s

So I would like to use this instance as a reminder that while Dies Irae is the only translated VN, it doesn't necessarily make it more reliable, and everyone should still take the time to check their sources

I'm sure it makes it more reliable

 

[Planck69]

Please let's refrain from using fan scans/translations for a piece of work that has been translated officially

I'll point out that just because something is translated officially, it doesn't make it in any way more accurate. A fan translation that's more clear is more than welcome in some instances.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I bought the originally translated game and it says infinite, I'm sure any fan translations does not matter at this point.
Same way the kanji in naruto mangas are stars but OG translations s

I'm sure it makes it more reliable

It doesn't.

The translation says infinite, but the original isn't talking about concepts to begin with. What I'm pointing out is not the guy's fan translation.

You can translate and see for yourself, but I sure don't see any kanji for "concept" or "infinite" anywhere.

VNs official translation not being the most accurate isn't really that rare (some stories of Umineko Tsubasa lack a sentence or two by moment, and lots of people already complained about DI translation not being the most accurate).
And even without including changes as big as completely changing what a sentence is talking about, these are litterary translations, which aren't meant to be litteral (and some translators sometimes fail to see the moment when you have to be litteral).

So no, a translation isn't above the original, no matter how official it is.
Otherwise Pokemon Masters 2-A statement would be used rn.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I'll point out that just because something is translated officially, it doesn't make it in any way more accurate. A fan translation that's more clear is more than welcome in some instances.

Hmmmn okay

 

[PrinceofPein]

It doesn't.

The translation says infinite, but the original isn't talking about concepts to begin with. What I'm pointing out is not the guy's fan translation.

You can translate and see for yourself, but I sure don't see any kanji for "concept" or "infinite" anywhere.

VNs official translation not being the most accurate isn't really that rare (some stories of Umineko Tsubasa lack a sentence or two by moment, and lots of people already complained about DI translation not being the most accurate).
And even without including changes as big as completely changing what a sentence is talking about, these are litterary translations, which aren't meant to be litteral (and some translators sometimes fail to see the moment when you have to be litteral).

So no, a translation isn't above the original, no matter how official it is.
Otherwise Pokemon Masters 2-A statement would be used rn.

I can't read Japanese that well, so I can't translate accurately sadly✌

 

[Guardian_Doge]

I used a Japanese to English dictionary and yes nothing for infinite concepts appears.

 

[ZERO7772]

Not gonna lie, Infera28 usage of some of these scans is pretty weird.

Since when is Ren calling Reinhardt "a creature so strong he may as well be from another dimension" a proof of tier 1? It's clearly flowery language for most of these scans and we trying to force them to be take literally.

Most of the 1-A stuff feels pretty shallow right now.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Not gonna lie, Infera28 usage of some of these scans is pretty weird.

Since when is Ren calling Reinhardt "a creature so strong he may as well be from another dimension" a proof of tier 1? It's clearly flowery language for most of these scans and we trying to force them to be take literally.

Most of the 1-A stuff feels pretty shallow right now.

I think they were more using it to say that Soujirou or Akuro scene were metaphors, since DI used higher dimension/another dimension/etc... as such several times.

Which would work if one ignored the fact that both scenes are explanations of what's happening + both makes sense with how K3 use the word and terminology.
Also the fact that DI english trad is a bit unreliable as shown above.

 

[ZERO7772]

I c

It's my bad then for not reading this thoroughly

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

I leave for a couple of days and i feel like i'm losing a lot mroe than i need.

Again this hinges heavily on the idea yakou's thing is limiting everyone when it doesn't tbh. And that it hinges that taiji is inferior and limited to smth it shat out while controlling said concepts and being unbounded like with Yakou.

And just to ask what does dimensional dislocation mean exactly?

Why are we using twilight beach when it noted how marie is an eternal being? I mean the scan used to say about eternal shit also mentions time is meaningless there so...

Also saying satanael beating muzan with a time paradox is one thing but it isn't cuz muzan is bounded by time more than the fact satanael is a god like muzan so logic is damned in a god vs god fight anyway. Considering Mibu can cut anything even the throne and all concepts of the world but his cuts can be stopped by stronger gods anyway so again even if they throw time shit it shouldn't mean they are bounded if the god is stronger or comparable to the opponent (as i better explain in a taiji battle attributes are worth shit if the value is different and only start mattering when its on the same grade).


蛇は、永劫狂し続けているのである。透徹した思慮と極限を億も超えた知識の果てに、辿り着いたのは愚の境地。

ただ流れ出すのみの影となり、宇宙を覆いつくした妄執こそ総てなのだ。理性など遥か昔に失って、今や残っているのは一つしかない。

yes there is no infinite. The best you get is 億 which is billion. And this is just talking on snakes insanity looping without a real end but i don't think its relevant here.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I leave for a couple of days and i feel like i'm losing a lot mroe than i need.

Again this hinges heavily on the idea yakou's thing is limiting everyone when it doesn't tbh. And that it hinges that taiji is inferior and limited to smth it shat out while controlling said concepts and being unbounded like with Yakou.

It's one argument among many. Argument which is still valid since the only counter was answered already.
And Yakou abilities are flat out stated to be comparable to Tenmas even with his Colorless Taiji either way, still supporting the fact that Taiji is on a higher D scale.

Why are we using twilight beach when it noted how marie is an eternal being? I mean the scan used to say about eternal shit also mentions time is meaningless there so...

Because it litteraly refers to the fact that everything's frozen in here. And I already explained how it is the flow of time.

蛇は、永劫狂し続けているのである。透徹した思慮と極限を億も超えた知識の果てに、辿り着いたのは愚の境地。

ただ流れ出すのみの影となり、宇宙を覆いつくした妄執こそ総てなのだ。理性など遥か昔に失って、今や残っているのは一つしかない。

yes there is no infinite. The best you get is 億 which is billion. And this is just talking on snakes insanity looping without a real end but i don't think its relevant here.

It kinda is relevant when the argument was "it says there's infinite concepts", which is wrong.

Nothing against you, but the arguments you just gave were all said already, so it doesn't add anything new to the debate here.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Btw Idk if it's just me but I think that more staff should start giving an opinion if nobody mind, because the thread is getting both repetitive and slower.

Like there's no point in repeating the same stuff over and over, is there?

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @SamanPatou @Dino_Ranger_Black @Gemmysaur @JustSomeWeirdo @LordGriffin1000 @Theglassman12 @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest

Would you be willing to help evaluate this please?

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

The infinite one is the one yakou mentions. Idk who can translate it better cuz while there is the near kanji from my end i got infinite so eh.

It's one argument among many. Argument which is still valid since the only counter was answered already.
And Yakou abilities are flat out stated to be comparable to Tenmas even with his Colorless Taiji either way, still supporting the fact that Taiji is on a higher D scale.

And yet that's how its summed up. The fact it hinges very VERY heaavily on taiji being bounded by this is very ludicurious to say the least. Yakou has taiji that is colorless but...what does that prove them being bounded by dimensions when he's using taiji??? The thing that is completely above and disconnected from the entire concepts and setting of the multiverse?

Yakou is comparible as you just answered why...he has taiji...even if its colorless its smth to help but not like it helped completely (again we had the other instances from arlfy explaining how he defended the others but without that ootake bursted it all until it turned to a god vs god fest. Btw this would also hinge on another thing. Even if we take 24D at face value (again what does dimensional dislocation even mean) the fact that Yakou didn't up the amount of dislocations and stopped at 24 when it became a god vs god fight is like saying he tried harder and it worked when again it was used by taiji which would make such things irrelevant so logic and attributes wouldn't matter in a god fight unless the grade is the same.

The singularity is eternal really and marie is technically a walking singularity via not being bounded the laws of the world.

求道太極『求道神』
「～になりたい」「～でありたい」といった己の内へと向かう渇望で至った太極。
唯一無二、自身の渇望を自己に永劫展開し続けるだけのモノ。人の形をした天であり、人間大の宇宙そのもの。
己自身を一つの異世界に変えること。歩く特異点とも形容され、万象における最も自立した生命体に他ならない。
純粋な強度の面では平均して覇道神を上回る、個の究極。

Gudou
This is a taiji that has been created by the thirst to "be" or "be" within oneself.
It is the one and only thing that can only continue to develop its own craving in itself forever. It is a heaven in human form, a human-sized universe itself.
To transform oneself into a different world. It is also described as a walking singularity, and is none other than the most independent life form in all of existence. On average its stronger than a hadou.

So we can see here that even such things like walking singularities are not bounded and are practically their own world (however if the hadou is stronger its likely they can force them back in)

 

[Planck69]

Is it possible for both sides to summarise their arguments?

 

[QuasiYuri]

The infinite one is the one yakou mentions. Idk who can translate it better cuz while there is the near kanji from my end i got infinite so eh.

Yeah, I mean if the word is "near infinite", having both near and infinite is logic.

And yet that's how its summed up. The fact it hinges very VERY heaavily on taiji being bounded by this is very ludicurious to say the least. Yakou has taiji that is colorless but...what does that prove them being bounded by dimensions when he's using taiji??? The thing that is completely above and disconnected from the entire concepts and setting of the multiverse?

Feats says otherwise.

Yakou is comparible as you just answered why...he has taiji...even if its colorless its smth to help but not like it helped completely (again we had the other instances from arlfy explaining how he defended the others but without that ootake bursted it all until it turned to a god vs god fest. Btw this would also hinge on another thing. Even if we take 24D at face value (again what does dimensional dislocation even mean) the fact that Yakou didn't up the amount of dislocations and stopped at 24 when it became a god vs god fight is like saying he tried harder and it worked when again it was used by taiji which would make such things irrelevant so logic and attributes wouldn't matter in a god fight unless the grade is the same.

Except that Yakou whole power is that he can only summon phenomenons of the world.

Also I already answered the thing about Morei, which is only one instance either way.

Can barely understand the rest of the sentence tho.

The singularity is eternal really and marie is technically a walking singularity via not being bounded the laws of the world.

求道太極『求道神』
「～になりたい」「～でありたい」といった己の内へと向かう渇望で至った太極。
唯一無二、自身の渇望を自己に永劫展開し続けるだけのモノ。人の形をした天であり、人間大の宇宙そのもの。
己自身を一つの異世界に変えること。歩く特異点とも形容され、万象における最も自立した生命体に他ならない。
純粋な強度の面では平均して覇道神を上回る、個の究極。

Gudou
This is a taiji that has been created by the thirst to "be" or "be" within oneself.
It is the one and only thing that can only continue to develop its own craving in itself forever. It is a heaven in human form, a human-sized universe itself.
To transform oneself into a different world. It is also described as a walking singularity, and is none other than the most independent life form in all of existence. On average its stronger than a hadou.

So we can see here that even such things like walking singularities are not bounded and are practically their own world (however if the hadou is stronger its likely they can force them back in)

Gudou are called walking singularity yeah. It also happens for Hadou too despite not being the same thing. And it's different from the Colorless realm known as the Singularity.

Also it really just explains how a Gudou embodies his law and all.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Is it possible for both sides to summarise their arguments?

On the downgrade side:

The argument about Taiji being 1-A is that since it created everything + can rewrite it and that their users are stated to be disconnected from existence/laws, it means that it holds a 1-A transcendance with absolutely every single thing in the world, including dimensions, time, etc... Something which isn't actually stated and is instead pure deduction.

However, this notion is contradicted by a lot of things:

-Akuro, a god, is called higher dimensional in an explanation about the nature of higher dimensions, even using the same terminology as others instances (also denying this feat as wrong/unknowledgeable/metaphorical/etc... is denying the only proof of dimensions being higher infinities we use so far)
-3 Gods' laws were blocked by Madara's dimensional barriers, which use the aforementionned terminology + are already accepted as higher dimensional
-Mibu slash was revealed to be a higher dimensional thing, which can even cut Tenmas
-This one is very minor, but only those with godhood can understand complex geometric space, which is what prevent others from reaching Taiji and all
-The Throne's dimension is one among many in Paradise Lost, with others regular higher dimensions being a pathway to it (despite 1-A being unreachable no matter how much higher D are stacked up)
-The Twilight Beach is a world of frozen
-Mercurius revolutionning the world by "breaking some concepts" and implanting the idea of Multiverse is considered as a change so big it makes him unable to use the laws of his predecessors because of a lack in compatibility. Which wouldn't happen if they weren't affected by any changes done to it.
-If it was inherently superior, then things like Briah, which are mere downscaled emanation, would make the user a fulll 1-A guy.
Etc... (rest I just don't have the scans or is just too minor, like dimensions using the same scale/density terminology as Taiji).

For all of these reasons, I think Shinza Bansho shouldn't be 1-A, and that Taiji has been heavily misused, partly because of some big jump in logic being made without taking into account how it doesn't work with what is actually shown.

If I forgot anything, I'll either add it later or precise it in another comment.

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

On the downgrade side:

The argument about Taiji being 1-A is that since it created everything + can rewrite it and that their users are stated to be disconnected from existence/laws, it means that it holds a 1-A transcendance with absolutely every single thing in the world, including dimensions, time, etc... Something which isn't actually stated and is instead pure deduction.

However, this notion is contradicted by a lot of things:

-Akuro, a god, is called higher dimensional in an explanation about the nature of higher dimensions, even using the same terminology as others instances (also denying this feat as wrong/unknowledgeable/metaphorical/etc... is denying the only proof of dimensions being higher infinities we use so far)
-3 Gods' laws were blocked by Madara's dimensional barriers, which use the aforementionned terminology + are already accepted as higher dimensional
-Mibu slash was revealed to be a higher dimensional thing, which can even cut Tenmas
-This one is very minor, but only those with godhood can understand complex geometric space, which is what prevent others from reaching Taiji and all
-The Throne's dimension is one among many in Paradise Lost, with others regular higher dimensions being a pathway to it (despite 1-A being unreachable no matter how much higher D are stacked up)
-The Twilight Beach is a world of frozen
-Mercurius revolutionning the world by "breaking some concepts" and implanting the idea of Multiverse is considered as a change so big it makes him unable to use the laws of his predecessors because of a lack in compatibility. Which wouldn't happen if they weren't affected by any changes done to it.
-If it was inherently superior, then things like Briah, which are mere downscaled emanation, would make the user a fulll 1-A guy.
Etc... (rest I just don't have the scans or is just too minor, like dimensions using the same scale/density terminology as Taiji).

For all of these reasons, I think Shinza Bansho shouldn't be 1-A, and that Taiji has been heavily misused, partly because of some big jump in logic being made without taking into account how it doesn't work with what is actually shown.

If I forgot anything, I'll either add it later or precise it in another comment.

Pretty sure even with this, shinza is at least 1-B or tier 2-A at least...

 

[QuasiYuri]

Pretty sure even with this, shinza is at least 1-B or tier 2-A at least...

Yeah...? I mean, I already said that they would still be around tier 1.

I'm not trying to lowball them, I'm trying to give them the tier they deserve.

It only matters if 1-A downgrade get accepted tho.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Just going to present my previous points since I'm too busy type, so it's just copy and paste with few added things

Taikyoku, simply put, is the Supreme Ultimate, the source of all of existence. In Taoist teachings, it's even the source of Yin and Yang. The concept is pretty much identical in Shinza. Taikyoku is the power of Gods in this universe. Hadou Gods, whose Taikyoku flows outwards from themselves, instead of generating an internal universe, are the source of what is perceived in Shinza as "reality". They are the sources of all phenomena, souls, and concepts.

Taikyoku has control.of everything in existence and everything originates from it and its disconnected from creation it self
if this ain't transcendence then i dont know what is

yakou made this quote also
み森羅万象から外れるという太極である。
Translation: My own Law which lets me gain total control of all things in Creation, my own Law that disconnects me from all things in Creation is Taikyoku.


Taikyoku is the basis of reality in Shinza, not just a simple power. That reality you see in each game? It's the outflow of a Hadou God's Taikyoku. Souls, space, time, concepts, physics, even emotions, Taikyoku is the source of everything while disconnected from everything.

In fact from the perspective of the gods creation was referred to as a canvas(not picture)
Canvas that they can paint over with whatever they want

And yes the creation, phenomena, concepts, laws e.t.c. in which they have control over while disconnected from it includes space, dimensions and the likes.


So I saw something like there is only one proof of the dimensions in shinza being higher infinities in the verses

Well from vs wiki standards and my own knowledge, higher infinities dimensions in a verse refers to viewing lower dimensions as fiction or if the difference in power is so great the lower ones are insignificant to the higher dimensional beings.

Let me bring few statements that was used to describe what its like to be higher dimensional existence in dies irae

1.
"They understood to a sickening degree that. ..defeating Lord Heydrich was impossible. No one could match Him.

He was a Beast that existed on a dimension of His own. It was beyond the wildest dreams of any mortal to ever reach His level They could never defeat Him, regardless of how events would unfold."

2.
"He was already beyond all imagination: and yet, that was a display of only a few tenths, if not hundredths, of his total power. Honestly, he might as well have been a creature from a higher dimension"

there are few more, but this are those I could get

Yes the dimensions can be described as higher infinities

This is just a summary of my arguments, I probably wont be so free in the coming days but any way the CRT goes its cool