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Honestly, I don't understand the logic or any of the basis behind Shinza Banshou enough to properly comment here, especially due to the language barrier so I don't feel confident in voicing any opinions on this matter.
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Divine Dimensional Dance 2nd round: Shinza Gods downgrade
- Thread starter QuasiYuri
- Start date
- Status
Rikimarox2
He/Him- 8,014
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After skimming through the thread and basically having a seizure trying to understand what is happening, I believe Yuri makes much more sense here. I honestly don't see anything that is 1A here.
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- #205
It is understandable tho. But it does make things slower.
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I don't know enough about the verse to argue on any side, but Yuri does seem make more sense here.
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I'll post a few points that might help to carry forward the discussion (it'll also be a bit of help to those who're facing trouble making their decision):
1) Is the Throne being called Hyperspace here? (instead of 'hyper-dimensional') And, is it also called Space of Nothingness here?
2) Here the Throne is stated to be devoid of the concept of time. As a result, contradictions related to time could happen there - you carry out the phenomena of emanation even when your being has been fully emanated, which shouldn't be possible logically.
3) When a fight between Gods happen, it doesn't take place in the present/real world. The fight happens at the Throne, so it is implied to be something not part of the reality based on the context. It is the center of the phenomena of the emanation of the existing law and the nucleus of the universe, which may or may not have a transcendent existence.
4) How does the law of Taikyoku works? (for those who're still confused)
-> If the law of underwater is changed into taikyoku, the entire universe will be transformed into the same state as the bottom of sea. This is an example of gaining total control over everything in creation with the law of Taikyoku. Alternatively, if it isn't a law that affects the universe in its entirety, it would just give birth to water that won't freeze or evaporate. This is an example of the law of taikyoku being disconnected from the physical laws of reality.
5) This seems to be a detailed explanation of the Singularity:
1. It is called a colorless, transparent and blank area. An eternal darkness (this 'darkness' is not supposed to be treated as a color but 'colorless', as it exists due to the absence of everything)
2. It is said to be like water that is as transparent as possible.
3. It has diversity. While being the embodiment of "nothingness" that humans think of, it can also develop in any way.
4. It's an endless and unchanging space. It's a colorless Taikyoku that simply continues to exist.
5. The mental condition of a regular person can't withstand the (unfathomable) transparency of this place.
6. However, if someone possesses Taikyoku, this place would become the source of origin for a new world.
7. For that purpose, one needs to have such a powerful surge that they could fully paint out the reality that exists at that time. After that, they can also create new laws, order, etc. of the new world.
The Singularity does appear to be something metaphysical that likely has some level of transcendence over the reality. Should we still consider it a 'part of' the remaining (physical) world? Singularity is the 'passage' to the throne, so it could make a significant difference on our opinion of the latter.
(QuasiYuri's arguments do make sense, but if there's anything that seems to hint otherwise, we should clarify it in this thread itself)
1) Is the Throne being called Hyperspace here? (instead of 'hyper-dimensional') And, is it also called Space of Nothingness here?
2) Here the Throne is stated to be devoid of the concept of time. As a result, contradictions related to time could happen there - you carry out the phenomena of emanation even when your being has been fully emanated, which shouldn't be possible logically.
3) When a fight between Gods happen, it doesn't take place in the present/real world. The fight happens at the Throne, so it is implied to be something not part of the reality based on the context. It is the center of the phenomena of the emanation of the existing law and the nucleus of the universe, which may or may not have a transcendent existence.
4) How does the law of Taikyoku works? (for those who're still confused)
-> If the law of underwater is changed into taikyoku, the entire universe will be transformed into the same state as the bottom of sea. This is an example of gaining total control over everything in creation with the law of Taikyoku. Alternatively, if it isn't a law that affects the universe in its entirety, it would just give birth to water that won't freeze or evaporate. This is an example of the law of taikyoku being disconnected from the physical laws of reality.
5) This seems to be a detailed explanation of the Singularity:
1. It is called a colorless, transparent and blank area. An eternal darkness (this 'darkness' is not supposed to be treated as a color but 'colorless', as it exists due to the absence of everything)
2. It is said to be like water that is as transparent as possible.
3. It has diversity. While being the embodiment of "nothingness" that humans think of, it can also develop in any way.
4. It's an endless and unchanging space. It's a colorless Taikyoku that simply continues to exist.
5. The mental condition of a regular person can't withstand the (unfathomable) transparency of this place.
6. However, if someone possesses Taikyoku, this place would become the source of origin for a new world.
7. For that purpose, one needs to have such a powerful surge that they could fully paint out the reality that exists at that time. After that, they can also create new laws, order, etc. of the new world.
The Singularity does appear to be something metaphysical that likely has some level of transcendence over the reality. Should we still consider it a 'part of' the remaining (physical) world? Singularity is the 'passage' to the throne, so it could make a significant difference on our opinion of the latter.
(QuasiYuri's arguments do make sense, but if there's anything that seems to hint otherwise, we should clarify it in this thread itself)
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Me, still not gonna agree or disagree here but on the subject of these scans.
@Gemstic
1: Yeah. 超 means words like "hyper", "super" and "ultra". 空間 means space. Put together you have something like "hyperspace" or superspace, so that's correct. And void of space would be 無の空間, with 無/Mu being a word that means something that's void or nothing, or naught even.
2: Concept of Time not existing in the "Throne/Seat" is correct.
3: Eh, I think you're right? It's sorta odd but I think the entirety of Shinsuu where K3's setting takes place in was a Singularity in and of itself or whatever, since Yatou's Law/Hadou was also actively fighting off Hajun's Law up until his death. Edit: I can't remember if the whole Yatou vs Habaki fight that goes on when those statements happen was a Singularity but I do recall Masada stating in the VFB that there is one in the time of when he was still alive up to his death...maybe that still counts but idk. I need to recheck this one later.
4: You're definitely correct on the Taikyoku part. The nature of Hadou/Hegemony and Gudou/Transcendence is present even in Taikyoku...or Atziluth or whatever the equivalent these Laws would be in other Heavens. You either have a Law that affects all other nigh-infinite laws, or become one that won't ever change in anyway. Which Idek if people keep forgetting this fact of Hadou and Gudou since they're a thing even for Gods.
5: The nature of the Singularity described in K3, at least from that scan alone, was also translated here.
@Gemstic
1: Yeah. 超 means words like "hyper", "super" and "ultra". 空間 means space. Put together you have something like "hyperspace" or superspace, so that's correct. And void of space would be 無の空間, with 無/Mu being a word that means something that's void or nothing, or naught even.
2: Concept of Time not existing in the "Throne/Seat" is correct.
3: Eh, I think you're right? It's sorta odd but I think the entirety of Shinsuu where K3's setting takes place in was a Singularity in and of itself or whatever, since Yatou's Law/Hadou was also actively fighting off Hajun's Law up until his death. Edit: I can't remember if the whole Yatou vs Habaki fight that goes on when those statements happen was a Singularity but I do recall Masada stating in the VFB that there is one in the time of when he was still alive up to his death...maybe that still counts but idk. I need to recheck this one later.
4: You're definitely correct on the Taikyoku part. The nature of Hadou/Hegemony and Gudou/Transcendence is present even in Taikyoku...or Atziluth or whatever the equivalent these Laws would be in other Heavens. You either have a Law that affects all other nigh-infinite laws, or become one that won't ever change in anyway. Which Idek if people keep forgetting this fact of Hadou and Gudou since they're a thing even for Gods.
5: The nature of the Singularity described in K3, at least from that scan alone, was also translated here.
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I'm still fine with 1-A.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
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The throne being something hyperdimensional (beyond) and metaphysical and devoid of the concept of space, is that not already a 1A space?
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
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If it has absolute control and its disconnected from what it controls (I.e. can't be affected by it) it means transedence tbh
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Creation:
All concepts simple or complex are governed and obeyed by near infinite laws
Taiji:
There is near infinite laws but compared to Taiji, they are mere physics. Taiji fills all creation and makes your desired creation
Taiji is source of all reality, cosmos, laws, dualities, phenomena, everything and origin of all things
Taiji grants control over creation and also makes you disconned from all things in creation even laws, physics and concepts. It was said that picture can't hurt reality regardless of potency and all creation is picture to gods even concepts. So cleary taiji is external to all creation and every extension of it
Gods are embodiment of their laws (taiji)
Gods transcended anything and everything, they are highest form existence and ultimate transcendence. It has been stated several times that only way for making a law void is transcending it and god's law is absolute and governs over all laws. So they cleary transcended all laws
Singularity is beyond creation and immune to all changes in creation
世界に穿たれた孔の中、事象へ影響を及ぼさない無色の空間。
座の支配、世界法則に属さない場所の総称。
特異点で起きた事象は原則として、世界に影響を及ぼさないので当代の神が座で殺害されても世界の魂が道連れにならない。
Singularity is created by the gods, they can affect and even destroy it, and both the singularity and the gods are out of creation/picture and have similar existence
Gods are throne masters and throne transcended anything
いと高き所に坐したまま総てを見通し人知の及ばぬ力を振るう何者かがいる、総てを超越して達する至高の座。
They also transcended space-time and concept of time doesn't exist in throne. Time is meager to gods
It was stated in japanese too
座には時間の概念が存在しない。
その理は 永劫回帰。端的に言えば「リセット」。彼が座に在る限り、彼の望まぬ終わりを迎えれば全ては零へと立ち戻る。 彼の 渇望は 「自分の望む結末以外は認めない」「やり直したい」 死の瞬間に「こんな結末は嫌だ」と流出を行い、神となって過去に戻った彼は、 永き時を生きた後に、自らの 自滅因子であるラインハルトと喰い合い自滅する。 その際にまた「こんな結末は嫌だ」と流出を行う…という無限ループになっている。 まるで卵が先かニワトリが先かのパラドックスのようだが、座に時間の概念がなく、 彼の渇望は時間軸を無視したものであったため、こんな奇妙なことが起こっている。 既知の世界と自らの生に飽いているが、その既知の中で出会ったマルグリット(マリィ)に「唯一愛した既知」と恋し、彼女に新世界の女神たる資質を見出した彼は「彼女の胸に抱かれて死ぬ」ことを自らの終焉と定め行動を開始する。
Even Ferederica transcended concepts of space-time and she wasn't a god
拾い上げたそこらに落ちているモノを振り回した程度でクレーターを作って星の地形を変え、果ては慣性の法則や時空間の概念すら無視する。
Debunking downgrade arguments:
Gods are higher dimensional
The higher dimensional was used allegorically several times in the series and shinza is known for using flowery language
So idk why term higher dimension suddenly isn't metaphorical anymore?!
higher dimensional can be referred to higher existence, consciousness, plane, massive beyond and massively stronger too. Higher dimension also can be 1-A dimension. Dimension is defined by size and there is high 1-A and tier 0 sizes in our tiering system let alone 1-A
Another phase of physics was used for higher dimension
Another phase of physics can be metaphysics, pataphysics, some incomprehensible form of 1-A physics, metaphor and...
It also doesn't make sense too because it countless times stated taiji is source of all laws, transcends all laws and even weaker abilities in series aren't bounded by physics
Yakou's 24D barrier blocked gods
Instead of translating the whole fight, only incomplete parts of it are translated and sent in the thread, which is not reliable at all and pretty suspect and out of context. Sleepy also debunked this and unlike downgrade side sleepy already read whole novels in japanese
So either downgrade side can translate whole fight from 0 to 100 or their translation isn't reliable and they should concede point
But however yakou already had taiji, only colorless taiji and his abilities are stated to be comparable to gods. So his barriers are 1-A
Singularity also is beyond all creation, all laws and made of colorless taiji and accepted as 1-A in wiki. So why somehow Yakou's colorless taiji is weaker than singularity and not 1-A?
世界に穿たれた孔の中、事象へ影響を及ぼさない無色の空間。
It was even said that events at singularity will not affect creation
座の支配、世界法則に属さない場所の総称。
And singularity is outside of all laws
特異点で起きた事象は原則として、世界に影響を及ぼさないので当代の神が座で殺害されても世界の魂が道連れにならない。
Even death of gods in singularity doesn't effect creation
So cleary singularity is beyond all changes in creation
Time existed in twilight beach
It also stated concept of time doesn't exist in twilight beach and time is frozen in beach. So it was pretty vague, metaphorical and also could be referred to lack existence of time too
And twilight was only a small colored part of singularity. In its core Singularity is a completely blank slate. devoid of all laws and reason
座の支配、世界法則に属さない場所の総称。どの理にも属さない無色の世界。
So it can't have time. Throne is located in bottom of singularity and throne is devoid of the concept of time
It was also stated that gods transcended space-time
Even Ferederica transcended concepts of space-time and she wasn't a god
拾い上げたそこらに落ちているモノを振り回した程度でクレーターを作って星の地形を変え、果ては慣性の法則や時空間の概念すら無視する。
1-A time is a thing too
Mercurius's creation had effect on him and previous gods
He changed throne's system and it effected him not creation. Throne is beyond creation
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- Thread starter
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Supposed to be a summary tho, not half scans I won't be able to answer.
Regardless, I didn't put counters to counters in my summary, so I would still highly recommand reading at least the last page of the thread.
Even if some things like "It means 24D barriers are in truth 1-A barriers that transcend the world" just need a tiny bit of knowledge to see how wrong it is (or even less in the case of some blatant misreading like with Twilight Beach which only says that the flow of time is a foreign concept).
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Because no one properly explained why Shiniza is 1-A, so I tried to explain everything in the most accurate and regular way to moderators and those who are not familiar with Shinza.
And except for the singularity part and a few new scans, I repeated the same arguments more regularly.
I really didn't add that many new things, I just explained everything in a regular and better way. Because even my previous arguments were irregular and cluttered.
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The current 1-A reasons aren't these scans tho, but I get what you mean yeah.
It's more that I found such a long summary kinda boring on the spot. Although it is more organised.
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I was actually thinking of sending the new reasons I sent myself in another revision thread later, but I did not want another revision thread to start as soon as this one was over.
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Got it. I'm actually waiting for this thread to finish to continue Shinza revisions too.
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Not mean to be rude but can you give a reason for why you still fine with 1-A? As each time you have talked in the first thread and this one, you just tell "i'm fine with 1-A" like you just wanted them to be 1-A and no giving much about the debate itself.
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As far as i know, mat got really busy and rarely turns up to the wiki.
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He was neutral at first
But after reading the arguments, he changed his mind towards staying 1-A
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Was it in last thread? Can't seem to find his comment. Although what matters is his current opinion anyway.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
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I think the new vs wiki standards allows dimensions to exist on 1A level, I think you can search for the thread,
The link was posted in the last thread or is it this one iirc,
I'm currently busy I would have helped you
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I'm actually one of the knowledgeable member on the Tiering System.
And while it is kinda true, 24D doesn't qualify as such, especially with the current reasonning for 1-A in that case.
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I have no idea. Honestly I never bothered to think it even lacked some kind of space but given its nature as K3 described it, I shouldn't have been surprised.
I just know jack about how the Tiering System works now for Tier 1. I'm only confirming what the user posted in regards to what the original text in DI was said.
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Are any staff and knowledgeable members willing to try to evaluate this please?
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This page might help you out: Tiering System FAQ
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It's a summary, so most of it is being evaluated already.
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This is good to know, thanks.
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Okay, got some time off from my other business to some search around. Still in progress with K3 but I did get on with some DI about the Singularity seeing as the very nature of it is part of why and how the Gods are (currently) 1-A.
Maybe this will be more clearer or not, but it helps to reconfirm what exactly a Singularity is (at least when Dies Irae first introduced it) along with some stuff about the (Hadou) Colors of the Gods. This will be using the OG JP version which you can watch here (at 44:19 onwards), and cross-reference it with the localized version here (starts at 28:07).
Scan 1
シャンバラの方陣が消失する。
産道は弾け飛び、ついに窮屈な檻から放たれた死人の世界が、爆発的に広がりだす。
それを阻止せんと、停止の世界もさらに強まり──
高まる覇道と覇道の閲ぎ合いは、ここに臨界を超えた。
The magical formation of Shambhala disappears.
The birth canal bursts open, and the World of The Dead, at last free from its cramped cage, rapidly expands.
In an attempt to stop it, the World of Standstill (停止) grows even stronger...
The growing conflict between the two Hadou (覇道) has now reached a critical point (臨界).
Scan 2
そう、臨界を超えたらどうなるか。
これを一枚の紙に例えてみよう。
そこには現在、 “既知”という絵が描かれている。
その一角、シャンバラという地域限定で、停止”という色と“死人”という色が領土を争いながら重ね塗りを続けているのだ。
この二色には、性質上の違いがある。 “停止”は色鉛筆で、“死人”は絵の具。しかも“チューブ”から直塗りしている絵の具だと思えばいい。
その産道 (チューブ) が、いま弾けた。
色鉛筆の塗り速度に対抗するため、絵の具は産道 (チューブ) が邪魔だったのである。
So, what happens when that critical point is exceeded?
Let's compare this to a sheet of paper (紙).
Currently on it is a picture (絵) that depicts "Foreknowledge".
In one corner, in the region of Shambhala, the colors of "Standstill" and "The Dead" fight for territory and are painting over one another.
The nature of these two colors also differs. The "Standstill" is a colored pencil, and "The Dead" was that of paint. Moreover, you can think of them as paint/color (絵の具) being applied directly from the "tube".
That birth canal (tube) had burst open.
In order to compete with the coating speed of the colored pencils, the tube's paint was in the way.
Scan 3
結果、何がどうなるか。
強い筆圧や度を超えた重ね塗りは、絵を完成させる前に紙そのものへ穴を開ける。
そう、穴が開くのだ。臨界を突破するとはそういうこと。
それはなんと定義するべきだろう。
紙の上にありながら、絵ではないし色でもない。
すなわち、世界の特異点。
What was the result of this?
The fierce brush strokes and excessive layers of coating (重ね塗) opened a hole (穴) before the very painting itself can be completed.
Yes, a hole was open. That is what it means to exceed that critical point.
How should it be defined?
It is on paper, but it was neither a picture nor a color.
That is to say, it was a Singularity (特異点) of the World.
Scan 4
穴の大きさは不明。
シャンバラ全体を飲み込んだか、それともその外まで弾けたか、あるいは針の先ほどか。
不明だが、ともかく特異点は生じたのだ。
そしてそこに、この事態を引き起こした当事者全員が落ちていく。
では、紙の下にあるのは何か?
The size of the hole is unknown.
Was it large enough to swallow the entirety of Shambhala, or could it burst open to the rest, or was it just the tip of a needle?
It was unknown but whatever it may be, a Singularity was created.
And that is where all of the parties involved in bringing this about had fallen to.
So...what is underneath the paper?
Scan 5
「ようこそ──」
穴の向こうにあるのは此処。
今や完全な白紙状態。何色も存在せず、何色にもなれる此処こそが、最終的な決着の場として相応しい。
「新世界へ。今、我々が総ての中心にある」
では、最後の恐怖劇 (グランギニョル) を始めようか。
"I welcome you..."
What lay beyond the hole is here.
It is now a completely blank slate. There existed no colors, yet can be of any color. An appropriate place for the final end.
"This is the New World. Now, we stand at the center of it all."
So, let the end of the Horror Play (Grand Guignol) commence.
To summarize here:
Edit: Forgot to put more here about there only being one color to paint the "paper"/canvas.
Additional one, two, three, four, five.
Just to get to the point, Mercurius talks about how it's better for one color to paint over that white "canvas" (画布). Should there be more than one as mentioned above, it'll just be the same as what Ren and Reinhard did in the existing world by creating yet another hole. The third scan, in particular, is the same as the English version where Ren restates what Merc describes as like a picture frame (額縁). Nothing more than a blank slate.
Maybe this will be more clearer or not, but it helps to reconfirm what exactly a Singularity is (at least when Dies Irae first introduced it) along with some stuff about the (Hadou) Colors of the Gods. This will be using the OG JP version which you can watch here (at 44:19 onwards), and cross-reference it with the localized version here (starts at 28:07).
Scan 1
シャンバラの方陣が消失する。
産道は弾け飛び、ついに窮屈な檻から放たれた死人の世界が、爆発的に広がりだす。
それを阻止せんと、停止の世界もさらに強まり──
高まる覇道と覇道の閲ぎ合いは、ここに臨界を超えた。
The magical formation of Shambhala disappears.
The birth canal bursts open, and the World of The Dead, at last free from its cramped cage, rapidly expands.
In an attempt to stop it, the World of Standstill (停止) grows even stronger...
The growing conflict between the two Hadou (覇道) has now reached a critical point (臨界).
Scan 2
そう、臨界を超えたらどうなるか。
これを一枚の紙に例えてみよう。
そこには現在、 “既知”という絵が描かれている。
その一角、シャンバラという地域限定で、停止”という色と“死人”という色が領土を争いながら重ね塗りを続けているのだ。
この二色には、性質上の違いがある。 “停止”は色鉛筆で、“死人”は絵の具。しかも“チューブ”から直塗りしている絵の具だと思えばいい。
その産道 (チューブ) が、いま弾けた。
色鉛筆の塗り速度に対抗するため、絵の具は産道 (チューブ) が邪魔だったのである。
So, what happens when that critical point is exceeded?
Let's compare this to a sheet of paper (紙).
Currently on it is a picture (絵) that depicts "Foreknowledge".
In one corner, in the region of Shambhala, the colors of "Standstill" and "The Dead" fight for territory and are painting over one another.
The nature of these two colors also differs. The "Standstill" is a colored pencil, and "The Dead" was that of paint. Moreover, you can think of them as paint/color (絵の具) being applied directly from the "tube".
That birth canal (tube) had burst open.
In order to compete with the coating speed of the colored pencils, the tube's paint was in the way.
Scan 3
結果、何がどうなるか。
強い筆圧や度を超えた重ね塗りは、絵を完成させる前に紙そのものへ穴を開ける。
そう、穴が開くのだ。臨界を突破するとはそういうこと。
それはなんと定義するべきだろう。
紙の上にありながら、絵ではないし色でもない。
すなわち、世界の特異点。
What was the result of this?
The fierce brush strokes and excessive layers of coating (重ね塗) opened a hole (穴) before the very painting itself can be completed.
Yes, a hole was open. That is what it means to exceed that critical point.
How should it be defined?
It is on paper, but it was neither a picture nor a color.
That is to say, it was a Singularity (特異点) of the World.
Scan 4
穴の大きさは不明。
シャンバラ全体を飲み込んだか、それともその外まで弾けたか、あるいは針の先ほどか。
不明だが、ともかく特異点は生じたのだ。
そしてそこに、この事態を引き起こした当事者全員が落ちていく。
では、紙の下にあるのは何か?
The size of the hole is unknown.
Was it large enough to swallow the entirety of Shambhala, or could it burst open to the rest, or was it just the tip of a needle?
It was unknown but whatever it may be, a Singularity was created.
And that is where all of the parties involved in bringing this about had fallen to.
So...what is underneath the paper?
Scan 5
「ようこそ──」
穴の向こうにあるのは此処。
今や完全な白紙状態。何色も存在せず、何色にもなれる此処こそが、最終的な決着の場として相応しい。
「新世界へ。今、我々が総ての中心にある」
では、最後の恐怖劇 (グランギニョル) を始めようか。
"I welcome you..."
What lay beyond the hole is here.
It is now a completely blank slate. There existed no colors, yet can be of any color. An appropriate place for the final end.
"This is the New World. Now, we stand at the center of it all."
So, let the end of the Horror Play (Grand Guignol) commence.
To summarize here:
- Ren and Reinhard's World's are akin to that of two colors painting atop a piece of paper (canvas in the English versions). The World is that paper (which in this case depicts a picture of Merc's World of Foreknowledge), and Ren and Reinhard are those two colors of colored pencil and paint.
- Normally only one color (of Hadou) should occur. In the case of more than one Hadou color arises, they end up painting over one another to the point they reach a "critical point". When that gets exceeded...
- A "hole" in that paper/canvas gets created, and when those who created that hole fall down below the paper...
- We get to the "center" of it all. A completely blank slate devoid of any color but can be of any.
Edit: Forgot to put more here about there only being one color to paint the "paper"/canvas.
Additional one, two, three, four, five.
Just to get to the point, Mercurius talks about how it's better for one color to paint over that white "canvas" (画布). Should there be more than one as mentioned above, it'll just be the same as what Ren and Reinhard did in the existing world by creating yet another hole. The third scan, in particular, is the same as the English version where Ren restates what Merc describes as like a picture frame (額縁). Nothing more than a blank slate.
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