- 6,605
- 4,155
- Thread starter
- #281
Would be a debate for another thread tho.
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Divine Dimensional Dance 2nd round: Shinza Gods downgrade
- Thread starter QuasiYuri
- Start date
- Status
- 6,605
- 4,155
- Thread starter
- #282
We summarised them above already, but tbh I think it would be hard to truly get the whole idea of each sides with just a summary.
- 987
- 271
It was said that the evolution of Yakou's taiji suddenly amped dimensions 10 times, so the dimensions, phenomena or anything you want and Taiji were connected
彼の拳を止めるために、二回目の十倍以上に練り上げて、二十四の次元断層を使用。
And making all the reality, concepts, laws, phenomena, physics, dualities of the world, being completely outside of them and being beyond them is clearly 1-A. I have already proved that they do not exist only outside of them and that they are completely transcendental to them too and they are immune to all their changes. I sent dozens scans, feats and statements
If not only you made everything but you are outside of it, you see it as picture, it has been said more than ten times that you transcended it and its changes do not affect you, then you are still bounded by it?!
It also stated god is absolute immutable and can't be changed no matter what
神は不変であり、その在り方を変える事で神に至る者はあれど、神になってから変節する者は基本的にいない。
何があっても終始一貫して不変であり、人のような情動はない。
And gudou god is most indepedent life form in all of existence
歩く特異点とも形容され、万象における最も自立した生命体に他ならない。
Unlike Arceus or anyone, all the creations of the gods are seen as pictures to them, and I have fully proven that changes in picture have no effect on them and they are out of picture and it has been said and implied more than 10 times that the gods and even the throne transcend anything and everything
Which is not important at all, because if it is proved that Taiji is 1-A, then those dimensions are also 1-A. Mixing 3D dimension with a bit of 1-A power = 1-A 3D
All that was said was that because of the change in the throne's system, he was no longer able to use the laws of the previous gods, and the throne has a level of existence similar to the gods. Nowhere is the name of the multiverse or effected by multiverse mentioned. Do not try to force your misinterpretations into us
And the reason I said that the K3 was Japanese was that you only sent fragmented parts of the fight that were very suspect, Especially with what Sleepy said. You say that there is nothing out of context and you checked, but this has not been proven to us. So I ask that the whole fight be translated from the beginning to the end and we see it all. The burden of proof is on you because you are using this fight for downgrading verse. If you can not translate the whole fight, then I call it out of context
Miswritting a few words is because English is not the first language of the translator and miswritting a few words (not even wrong translation but miswritting few words) does not mean that the translation is wrong. and I just sent one of the translated parts in Japanese and it was no different from the translation. Anyway these are the japanese versions of the feats i sent
拾い上げたそこらに落ちているモノを振り回した程度でクレーターを作って星の地形を変え、果ては慣性の法則や時空間の概念すら無視する。
』とも真の機能はマシュヤグが惹かれた存在の強い願望を反映する形で複製を造り出す事、製作者であるクワルナフの権能の縮小版とも言えるものである。
物質のみならず概念、現象と言った曖昧なものまで機能の対象であるが、創り出された「なにか」は「男と女」や「幼年期と成人」など、上下左右が反転した鏡像のように元となったモノと決定的な差異を持つ。
この世にある全ての二元的な現象、概念が流転し万華鏡の如く形を変える綾模様の大曼荼羅。絶対的な法のもと敵対するものが定められたその空間は宇宙の縮図、超級規模の織物。
You claim that the fragmentary parts of the fight you sent are not out of context, so you have to prove the claims yourself, and only two of the dozens of photos I sent were mistranslated and that wasn't my fault either. I sent officialy licensed translations.
Taiji is fundamentally 1-A in both shinza and philsophy. It isn't 1-A through manipulating laws or phenomena
Shinza:
Taikyoku--Origin of all things in Onmyoudou (Way of Yin and Yang), concept pointing to the nucleus of the universe.
To draw power and grasp the knowledge of everything, the source of all phenomena and the origin of all things. To see all and do all.
Philsophy:
Taiji (simplified Chinese: 太极; traditional Chinese: 太極; pinyin: tàijí; lit. 'great pole') is a Chinese cosmological term for the "Supreme Ultimate" state of undifferentiated absolute and infinite potential, the oneness before duality, from which Yin and Yang originate, can be compared with the old Wuji (無極, "without ridgepole").
if Yaku's dimensions can resist the gods beyond the concept of dimensions, then it is logical to say that Yaku combines dimensions and phenomena with his own taiji or they even weren't normal dimensions at first place
And Yaku actually showed that he modifies things. It was said that the evolution of Yakou's taiji suddenly amped dimensions 10 times, so the dimensions and Taiji were connected.
彼の拳を止めるために、二回目の十倍以上に練り上げて、二十四の次元断層を使用。
The difference is that Briah are only 1-A because of the rejection of the Merc's law, but Taiji makes the person embodiment of a law beyond all laws and the root of everything. Ascending person to higher plane existence, not merely rejection of laws
Also what's problem with full 1-A briah? It is only temporary 1-A through hax. They will only remain 1-A for few hours.
Last edited:
- 4,325
- 732
Actually noting what you show is 1-A by how you show describ it for how much i remember about the new tiering system and you can't scale tier based of real phylosophie, it's a basic thing we know here...
Last edited:
- 6,605
- 4,155
- Thread starter
- #286
Just gonna directly answer this part.
Besides this making your "It's out of context even if I have no proof it is when context's here" kinda ironic, you are flat out inventing something which isn't in your quote.
It just says that he used way more barriers than last time, and it's considered extra-safety, not a boost. Also his Mukei Taiji already evolved the "last time" he used them anyway.
So it is wrong. Plain and simple.
You are just repeating "my scans are right I proved it".
Which is... A big waste of EVERYONE's time, because we all agreed to not repeat the same arguments and wait for staff.
You definitely aren't gonna change your stance no matter my arguments and the ones you bring are nearly having the opposite effect from my point of view.
Multiverse isn't even mentioned ? I could understand such lie, if I didn't bring the translation.
Mercurius revolution isn't doing spaghetti with ketchup, it is creating the idea of multiverse by breaking several concepts of the old worlds.
You just have to read it to see it.
- 6,605
- 4,155
- Thread starter
- #287
Anyway, Zero's right, and still answering despite the previously mentionned agreement is pretty childish for the both of us, so I'm not gonna answer the same repeated arguments again, even if you comment after this.
Let's just stop this, and wait for what we truly need. The staff.
I think that you can at least understand how it isn't helping even your own side to continue like this.
Let's just stop this, and wait for what we truly need. The staff.
I think that you can at least understand how it isn't helping even your own side to continue like this.
- 1,762
- 789
The OP is making a lot of sense here. I agree with the downgrade.
- 6,946
- 3,877
You know the usage of using the philosophical Taikyoku and applying that to Shinza’s version is not a great way to retain/upgrade the verse.
This is literally no different from the time someone tried to use the philosophical IRL version of Brahman to apply it to Mondaiji’s version. Granted I don’t remember what that version was described as but Regidian has a point in that nobody should be doing that for any verse.
Otherwise, you might as well do it for any verse that uses any concepts like that.
This is literally no different from the time someone tried to use the philosophical IRL version of Brahman to apply it to Mondaiji’s version. Granted I don’t remember what that version was described as but Regidian has a point in that nobody should be doing that for any verse.
Otherwise, you might as well do it for any verse that uses any concepts like that.
- 987
- 271
In fact, you are right, I behaved like children and I apologize for that. I do not know why I am trying so hard to keep shinza 1-A. It's not really that deep
Especially when all the knowledgeable members of Shinza are leaving the wiki or no longer care about it, I try in vain
My real goal was to show the Taiji similarities between Shinza and Philosophy. I did not want to say that we should upgrade Shinza just because of philosophy
Last edited:
- 4,942
- 1,317
Hmmmm, yeah, I straight up agree now with the downgrades
- 10,273
- 1,847
Does the info shown in pantheon affect their revision in any way btw? I mean mentioning Hadou Gods to be superior to everything in the verse IS objectively false since the "Observers " exist on a higher plane of existence than the gods and the hadous doesn't even comprehend their existence according to pantheon "aside from Hajun"
I am not that knowledgable about how the wiki system work, but if Hadous are supposed to be beyond every concept and every idea in existence plus existence and nonexistence and look at everything in creation as mere fiction, how does that work?
The idea that we are trying to apply here isn't true even in the eyes of the author probably.
I am not that knowledgable about how the wiki system work, but if Hadous are supposed to be beyond every concept and every idea in existence plus existence and nonexistence and look at everything in creation as mere fiction, how does that work?
The idea that we are trying to apply here isn't true even in the eyes of the author probably.
Last edited:
- 4,061
- 1,714
Since all the staff are not willing to answer, and most of the shinza supporters and well informed members have left the wikia, isn't it better to postphone the CRT? Wait until they come back, There are already too many revisions going on and most of these arguments is just the op refusing to accept the arguments of the supporters and supporters refusing to accept the arguments of OP.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
- 6,037
The Narakas are of greater existence than them thats all, its not a basis that means its untrue
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
- 6,037
Not usage of philosophical, both the philosophy definition and shinza definition are the same btw
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
- 6,037
Your opinion does not matter if you dont give reasons for agreeing
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
- 6,037
Honestly, most of the supporters no longer care about the verse, and since.I doubt shinza will continue the series its bound to become redundant soon
Guardian_Doge
He/Him- 628
- 606
Pain, just quote all of them separately in one post, no need to make several comments.
Also, regarding this refuting stuff, like Yuri said earlier, the people posting refutes seemed have not read the op, some of the said arguments were completely unrelative to Yuri's points, aside from that I do think Yuri's are more substantiated, considering that some of the oppositions are attempting to use information when we still haven't reached a consensus to the tier of said structure.
I think we should go with what Darksmash said and discuss the singularity's tier before moving forward with taji arguments, philosophical or not, because even if they are apparently the same definition, the concept noted in verse would be limited by its cosmology unless specified.
Also, regarding this refuting stuff, like Yuri said earlier, the people posting refutes seemed have not read the op, some of the said arguments were completely unrelative to Yuri's points, aside from that I do think Yuri's are more substantiated, considering that some of the oppositions are attempting to use information when we still haven't reached a consensus to the tier of said structure.
I think we should go with what Darksmash said and discuss the singularity's tier before moving forward with taji arguments, philosophical or not, because even if they are apparently the same definition, the concept noted in verse would be limited by its cosmology unless specified.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
- 6,037
I am in agreement with this, but a new CRT is not needed and members like Red, qliphoth will probably be needed
And I will like this to be concluded as soon as possible, its been dragged for too long
- 6,946
- 3,877
Aside from waiting for staff, I think Guardian Doge has a point.
If I remember the old thread that got them to High 1-A in the past right, the Singularity's nature was the reason, or at least one of the reasons, for making them as they are now. Aside from, ofc, Taikyoku/Atizluth's nature as the source of all things being the other.
If I remember the old thread that got them to High 1-A in the past right, the Singularity's nature was the reason, or at least one of the reasons, for making them as they are now. Aside from, ofc, Taikyoku/Atizluth's nature as the source of all things being the other.
- 6,605
- 4,155
- Thread starter
- #302
It would be meaningless. There's nothing tp wait for and I already have a lot of Shinza CRTs nearly ready.
Like, those who left are unlikely to come back, and waiting for some person to appear one day for a specific verse was already shown to be bad with Umineko.
- 6,605
- 4,155
- Thread starter
- #303
- 6,605
- 4,155
- Thread starter
- #304
The Singularity actually isn't a part of the 1-A reasonning.
It just was for High 1-A/higher layers of 1-A as "it has huge depths so..." and merely scaled from the previous explanation. And even this was proved wrong by Darkmash anyway.
So it wouldn't change much.
- 6,946
- 3,877
@QuasiYuri Really now...
- 6,605
- 4,155
- Thread starter
- #306
? I thought that it was good to explain how Singularity has been treated so far.
- 6,946
- 3,877
The Singularity bit thing you just said.
Could have sworn that was still it for the Gods.
Could have sworn that was still it for the Gods.
- 6,946
- 3,877
Ahhh. Makes sense.
- 168,565
- 77,374
Well, it would help if you each write new posts with all of the updated information, because this is a complicated thread, so if I call our staff members here now, there is a considerable risk that they would not have the time and energy to read and evaluate it.
What are your own thoughts so far btw? Have any of the pro-1-A arguments made you reconsider?
- 6,605
- 4,155
- Thread starter
- #311
I can do a comment summarising both sides in some minutes, if nobody mind.
Would say it's quite the opposite. Some are nearly strengthening my initial thing.
- 6,605
- 4,155
- Thread starter
- #312
Note: I realized that I use "however" a lot. It actually just means that it is a counter to counter.
Also I may forget a thing or two, so don't hesitate to tell me if you see such thing.
However, this notion is contradicted by a lot of things:
-Akuro, a god, is called higher dimensional in an explanation about the nature of higher dimensions, even using the same terminology as others instances (also denying this feat as wrong/unknowledgeable/metaphorical/etc... is denying the only proof of dimensions being higher infinities we use so far).
The opposition answered this by saying that it was one of the many metaphor Shinza used.
However in that case it is explaining why Akuro couldn't be harmed and gave clear explanation regarding the fact that he was of a higher dimension, using the terminology K3 uses for them.
-3 Gods' laws were blocked by Madara's dimensional barriers, which use the aforementionned terminology + are already accepted as higher dimensional
Opposition answered by stating that Yakou weakened them, using him calling Morei's true name as a proof or saying that they weren't actual higher dimensions.
However Morei's scenes are either another fight or after the scene given, making them unrelated.
While them not being actual higher D is contradicted by them using the exact same terminology as the ones above + being already accepted as such.
Another argument is that since Yakou had Taiji, it means that the dimensions were being boosted by said Taiji.
The counter to this one is that Yakou's special thing with his Mukei is that he CAN'T change things, only summon them. So no boost here.
Not to mention that the scan used just say "it uses more than last time". But he like... already got his Taiji value uped last time too. Definitely nothing changing.
-Mibu slash was revealed to be a higher dimensional thing, which can even cut Tenmas
Was argued by other side to not be litteral, but it is a clear explanation/revelation of the true nature of the distorsion, and it being called higher dimensional right before being said to be able to harm Tenma is
-This one is very minor, but only those with godhood can understand complex geometric space, which is what prevent others from reaching Taiji and all
Opposition answered that it didn't mean Taiji was limited to this. It isn't wrong, since it is just a supporting evidence.
-The Throne's dimension is one among many in Paradise Lost, with others regular higher dimensions being a pathway to it (despite 1-A being unreachable no matter how much higher D are stacked up).
-The Twilight Beach is a world of frozen time, despite Gods/Singularity/Throne/etc... not being supposed to be reached by any form of concept according to the other side.
Opposition said that it was wrong because it was said that this world lacked the concept of time. Which is actually a misread, because it only stated that it lacked the flow of time. Since time is, not flowing.
Statements of Throne lacking the concept of time was also used, and it is legit to an extent, since it refers to it not caring about Merc law shenanigans. However same law is affecting everyone.
And statements of transcendance over time, which are pretty vague and from the english version (which added some of these statements despite not existing in the original).
-Mercurius revolutionning the world by "breaking some concepts" and implanting the idea of Multiverse is considered as a change so big it makes him unable to use the laws of his predecessors because of a lack in compatibility. Which wouldn't happen if they weren't affected by any changes done to it.
Opposition argument is that it talks about messing with the Throne system, making it unrelated to the world.
However it would show that the Throne was unable to apply an extension of the world (idea of Multiverse) by itself, despite being supposed to also be above every single extension of it.
-If it was inherently superior, then things like Briah, which are mere downscaled emanation, would make the user a fulll 1-A guy.
Opposition answered that we accept Briah as 1-A hax. Which is true but not what the other side meant. The argument here is that they should be full 1-A guy and not just have their imposition being 1-A. Although this one isn't too important
As such, downgrade side think that something like 1-B is more accurate than 1-A.
Opposition argument is that it isn't 100%, since Pre-Throne Area lacked the influence of a Taiji and all.
However it doesn't matter much anyway, and Taiji is still the origin of what's in the current iteration of creation.
It doesn't mean 1-A transcendance over it.
-Taiji in philosophy is 1-A, and Taiji in Shinza is similar.
Opposition point is that we don't use real life philosophy stuff and all to upgrade a verse. Otherwise verses with Brahman would be 1-A.
-It is stated that Taiji fills all of creation and allows you to manipulate it, bend things to your law
Opposition argument is that it is law rewritting, nothing 1-A.
-It is said that Gods and coe transcend reality and are disconnected for the laws of the world. They are also stated to see it as a canvas on which they can paint.
Opposition is that you can do the same by merely having one level of transcendance, not a 1-A one.
Same for the canvas statement, which is either referring to the fact that their laws are overwritting stuff, which is considered as "painting" with their law.
And things about transcending "the picture" are used to say that they are higher dimensional beings, as shown with Akuro.
-Singularity is beyond creation, outside of laws and immune to its change.
Opposition argument is that the scan actually says that nothing that happen in Singularity will affect creation. Which prove disconnection, but no 1-A transcendance.
-1-A dimensions are a thing.
Except that 1-A for Shinza is based on the fact that they are supposed to be above every single extension of said dimensions. Obviously you can't both get a rating for not being touched by water when you get it splashed to your face several time in a week.
Another point of the opposition related to the whole stuff is that some points are based on 1-A being a given (mainly Yakou barriers somehow being 1-A because it "blocked a 1-A being"), which is a backward logic.
For these reasons, the person on this side think that 1-A should say
I also didn't put the scans in this summary based on that idea, so there's that.
Just a recommandation tho, I can understand why one wouldn't want to read a big debate and all.
Everything's left to staff judgment now.
Also I may forget a thing or two, so don't hesitate to tell me if you see such thing.
On the downgrade side
-The argument about Taiji being 1-A is that since it created everything + can rewrite it and that their users are stated to be disconnected from existence/laws, it means that it holds a 1-A transcendance with absolutely every single thing in the world, including dimensions, time, etc... Something which isn't actually stated and is instead pure deduction.However, this notion is contradicted by a lot of things:
-Akuro, a god, is called higher dimensional in an explanation about the nature of higher dimensions, even using the same terminology as others instances (also denying this feat as wrong/unknowledgeable/metaphorical/etc... is denying the only proof of dimensions being higher infinities we use so far).
The opposition answered this by saying that it was one of the many metaphor Shinza used.
However in that case it is explaining why Akuro couldn't be harmed and gave clear explanation regarding the fact that he was of a higher dimension, using the terminology K3 uses for them.
-3 Gods' laws were blocked by Madara's dimensional barriers, which use the aforementionned terminology + are already accepted as higher dimensional
Opposition answered by stating that Yakou weakened them, using him calling Morei's true name as a proof or saying that they weren't actual higher dimensions.
However Morei's scenes are either another fight or after the scene given, making them unrelated.
While them not being actual higher D is contradicted by them using the exact same terminology as the ones above + being already accepted as such.
Another argument is that since Yakou had Taiji, it means that the dimensions were being boosted by said Taiji.
The counter to this one is that Yakou's special thing with his Mukei is that he CAN'T change things, only summon them. So no boost here.
Not to mention that the scan used just say "it uses more than last time". But he like... already got his Taiji value uped last time too. Definitely nothing changing.
-Mibu slash was revealed to be a higher dimensional thing, which can even cut Tenmas
Was argued by other side to not be litteral, but it is a clear explanation/revelation of the true nature of the distorsion, and it being called higher dimensional right before being said to be able to harm Tenma is
-This one is very minor, but only those with godhood can understand complex geometric space, which is what prevent others from reaching Taiji and all
Opposition answered that it didn't mean Taiji was limited to this. It isn't wrong, since it is just a supporting evidence.
-The Throne's dimension is one among many in Paradise Lost, with others regular higher dimensions being a pathway to it (despite 1-A being unreachable no matter how much higher D are stacked up).
-The Twilight Beach is a world of frozen time, despite Gods/Singularity/Throne/etc... not being supposed to be reached by any form of concept according to the other side.
Opposition said that it was wrong because it was said that this world lacked the concept of time. Which is actually a misread, because it only stated that it lacked the flow of time. Since time is, not flowing.
Statements of Throne lacking the concept of time was also used, and it is legit to an extent, since it refers to it not caring about Merc law shenanigans. However same law is affecting everyone.
And statements of transcendance over time, which are pretty vague and from the english version (which added some of these statements despite not existing in the original).
-Mercurius revolutionning the world by "breaking some concepts" and implanting the idea of Multiverse is considered as a change so big it makes him unable to use the laws of his predecessors because of a lack in compatibility. Which wouldn't happen if they weren't affected by any changes done to it.
Opposition argument is that it talks about messing with the Throne system, making it unrelated to the world.
However it would show that the Throne was unable to apply an extension of the world (idea of Multiverse) by itself, despite being supposed to also be above every single extension of it.
-If it was inherently superior, then things like Briah, which are mere downscaled emanation, would make the user a fulll 1-A guy.
Opposition answered that we accept Briah as 1-A hax. Which is true but not what the other side meant. The argument here is that they should be full 1-A guy and not just have their imposition being 1-A. Although this one isn't too important
As such, downgrade side think that something like 1-B is more accurate than 1-A.
On the 1-A side
-Taiji is stated to be the origin of everything, concepts, laws, reality included.Opposition argument is that it isn't 100%, since Pre-Throne Area lacked the influence of a Taiji and all.
However it doesn't matter much anyway, and Taiji is still the origin of what's in the current iteration of creation.
It doesn't mean 1-A transcendance over it.
-Taiji in philosophy is 1-A, and Taiji in Shinza is similar.
Opposition point is that we don't use real life philosophy stuff and all to upgrade a verse. Otherwise verses with Brahman would be 1-A.
-It is stated that Taiji fills all of creation and allows you to manipulate it, bend things to your law
Opposition argument is that it is law rewritting, nothing 1-A.
-It is said that Gods and coe transcend reality and are disconnected for the laws of the world. They are also stated to see it as a canvas on which they can paint.
Opposition is that you can do the same by merely having one level of transcendance, not a 1-A one.
Same for the canvas statement, which is either referring to the fact that their laws are overwritting stuff, which is considered as "painting" with their law.
And things about transcending "the picture" are used to say that they are higher dimensional beings, as shown with Akuro.
-Singularity is beyond creation, outside of laws and immune to its change.
Opposition argument is that the scan actually says that nothing that happen in Singularity will affect creation. Which prove disconnection, but no 1-A transcendance.
-1-A dimensions are a thing.
Except that 1-A for Shinza is based on the fact that they are supposed to be above every single extension of said dimensions. Obviously you can't both get a rating for not being touched by water when you get it splashed to your face several time in a week.
Another point of the opposition related to the whole stuff is that some points are based on 1-A being a given (mainly Yakou barriers somehow being 1-A because it "blocked a 1-A being"), which is a backward logic.
For these reasons, the person on this side think that 1-A should say
Either way
I would greatly recommand reading at very least one page (like really) or the major arguments of each , because while a summary is cool and all, it obviously isn't the same as a 4 pages thread.I also didn't put the scans in this summary based on that idea, so there's that.
Just a recommandation tho, I can understand why one wouldn't want to read a big debate and all.
Everything's left to staff judgment now.
Last edited:
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
- 6,037
I dont think it is okay for you to summarise for the opposition of the OP, I will do that instead
Just trying to make things fair, I will read through the entire OP, and take points from everyone against the OP and summarise it here
Would try and do that after work so may be in some.hours
- 6,605
- 4,155
- Thread starter
- #314
Didn't seem to be a problem for anyone so I just did it to save everyone's time. I don't think it is too bad, so you could just add something if I forgot.
I don't mind that you want to do "your side" tho, however you have to be efficient and clear in your summary.
Like how I excluded counters already answered/one time instances and the likes or how I didn't include every single variations of the same argument.
- 168,565
- 77,374
Thank you for helping out.
PrinceofPein
Username Only- 9,100
- 6,037
I would do that, but well thats still till after work
- 4,061
- 1,714
BTW, this downgrade if accepted , will happen because we are not taking the official english translations into account, right? Infinite concepts and all those shenanigans. If we still took english translations , would shinza be a solid 1-A?
- 6,605
- 4,155
- Thread starter
- #318
If your question is "is translation the reason of the downgrade?" The answer is no.
I actually didn't think of bringing this issue (especially since the reasons for 1-A were mainly just K3 and mentions of Cho Jigen) but it happened anyway.
Last edited:
- 987
- 271
This is my summary: (Yuri added one or two new ponts in his summary, so I answered them too)
Creation:
All concepts simple or complex are governed and obeyed by near infinite laws
Higher dimensions in the series are part of the phenomenon
夜行は森羅万象を司る座に達しているため、これは厳密なところ異能ではない。単に宇宙の物理現象ならば何でも出来るということであり、世界法則を歪める異能とはまったく逆の部類と言える。
Taiji:
There is near infinite laws but compared to Taiji, they are mere physics. Taiji fills all creation and makes your desired creation
Taiji is source of all reality, cosmos, laws, dualities, phenomenon, everything and origin of all things. This was later reaffirmed by saying that Mercury was the ruler of any known phenomenon
Taiji grants control over creation and also makes you disconned from all things in creation even laws, physics and concepts. It was said that picture can't hurt reality regardless of potency and all creation is picture to gods even concepts. So cleary taiji is external to all creation and every extension of it
Gods are embodiment of their laws (taiji)
Gods transcended anything and everything, they are highest form existence and ultimate transcendence. It has been stated several times that only way for making a law void is transcending it and god's law is absolute and governs over all laws. So they cleary transcended all laws
Taiji also governs over all conceptual dualities
この世にある全ての二元的な現象、概念が流転し万華鏡の如く形を変える綾模様の大曼荼羅。絶対的な法のもと敵対するものが定められたその空間は宇宙の縮図、超級規模の織物。
The large Weave patterened Mandala where all the dualistic phenomenon and concept in this world shifts and changes like a Kaleidoscope. The extent of super fabric is the microcosm of the universe, in which the opposition (dualities) is to be determined by the absolute law.
Singularity is beyond creation and immune to all changes in creation
世界に穿たれた孔の中、事象へ影響を及ぼさない無色の空間。
座の支配、世界法則に属さない場所の総称。
特異点で起きた事象は原則として、世界に影響を及ぼさないので当代の神が座で殺害されても世界の魂が道連れにならない。
Singularity is created by the gods, they can affect and even destroy it, and both the singularity and the gods are out of creation/picture and have similar existence so god scales to singularity
Gods are immutable and they can't be changed no matter what
神は不変であり、その在り方を変える事で神に至る者はあれど、神になってから変節する者は基本的にいない。
何があっても終始一貫して不変であり、人のような情動はない。
And gudou god is most indepedent life form in all of existence
歩く特異点とも形容され、万象における最も自立した生命体に他ならない。
Gods are throne masters and throne transcended anything
いと高き所に坐したまま総てを見通し人知の及ばぬ力を振るう何者かがいる、総てを超越して達する至高の座。
They also transcended space-time and concept of time doesn't exist in throne. Time is meager to gods
It was stated in japanese too
座には時間の概念が存在しない。
その理は 永劫回帰。端的に言えば「リセット」。彼が座に在る限り、彼の望まぬ終わりを迎えれば全ては零へと立ち戻る。 彼の 渇望は 「自分の望む結末以外は認めない」「やり直したい」 死の瞬間に「こんな結末は嫌だ」と流出を行い、神となって過去に戻った彼は、 永き時を生きた後に、自らの 自滅因子であるラインハルトと喰い合い自滅する。 その際にまた「こんな結末は嫌だ」と流出を行う…という無限ループになっている。 まるで卵が先かニワトリが先かのパラドックスのようだが、座に時間の概念がなく、 彼の渇望は時間軸を無視したものであったため、こんな奇妙なことが起こっている。 既知の世界と自らの生に飽いているが、その既知の中で出会ったマルグリット(マリィ)に「唯一愛した既知」と恋し、彼女に新世界の女神たる資質を見出した彼は「彼女の胸に抱かれて死ぬ」ことを自らの終焉と定め行動を開始する。
Even Ferederica transcended concepts of space-time and she wasn't a god
拾い上げたそこらに落ちているモノを振り回した程度でクレーターを作って星の地形を変え、果ては慣性の法則や時空間の概念すら無視する。
Even one of the non-god characters was able to reproduce all concepts and phenomena
』とも真の機能はマシュヤグが惹かれた存在の強い願望を反映する形で複製を造り出す事、製作者であるクワルナフの権能の縮小版とも言えるものである。
物質のみならず概念、現象と言った曖昧なものまで機能の対象であるが、創り出された「なにか」は「男と女」や「幼年期と成人」など、上下左右が反転した鏡像のように元となったモノと決定的な差異を持つ。
So gods cleary transcended every extension of reality, concepts, laws, and phenomena and they are disconned from all their extensions
Debunking downgrade arguments:
Gods are higher dimensional
The higher dimensional was used allegorically several times in the series and shinza is known for using flowery language
So idk why term higher dimension suddenly isn't metaphorical anymore
higher dimensional can be referred to higher existence, consciousness, plane, massive beyond and massively stronger too. Higher dimension also can be 1-A dimension. Dimension is defined by size and there is high 1-A and tier 0 sizes in our tiering system let alone 1-A
Another phase of physics was used for higher dimension
Another phase of physics can be metaphysics, pataphysics, some incomprehensible form of 1-A physics, metaphor and...
It also doesn't make sense too because it countless times stated taiji is source of all laws, transcends all laws and even weaker abilities in series aren't bounded by physics
Yakou's 24D barrier blocked gods
Instead of translating the whole fight, only incomplete parts of it are translated and sent in the thread, which is not reliable at all and pretty suspect and out of context. Sleepy also debunked this and unlike downgrade side sleepy already read whole novels in japanese
https://vsbattles.com/threads/divine-dimensionnal-dance-shinza-bansho-gods-downgrade.115180/post-3700977
https://vsbattles.com/threads/divine-dimensionnal-dance-shinza-bansho-gods-downgrade.115180/post-3701050
https://vsbattles.com/threads/divine-dimensionnal-dance-shinza-bansho-gods-downgrade.115180/post-3701163
But however yakou already had a taiji value 2, only colorless
彼は自分が何故太極をもつのか、さらに十より前の自分の過去をよく知らないなど、一般人であれば当然に疑念に思うであろう問題を抱えているが、彼自身はそのことに全く頓着していない。
初伝 太極 2
Singularity also is beyond all creation, all laws and made of colorless taiji
世界に穿たれた孔の中、事象へ影響を及ぼさない無色の空間。
It was even said that events at singularity will not affect creation
座の支配、世界法則に属さない場所の総称。
And singularity is outside of all laws
特異点で起きた事象は原則として、世界に影響を及ぼさないので当代の神が座で殺害されても世界の魂が道連れにならない。
Even death of gods in singularity doesn't effect creation
So singularity is beyond all changes in creation same as Yakou's taiji
It was also said that the evolution of Yakou's taiji suddenly amped dimensions 10 times, so the dimensions and Taiji were connected.
彼の拳を止めるために、二回目の十倍以上に練り上げて、二十四の次元断層を使用。
Time existed in twilight beach
It also stated concept of time doesn't exist in twilight beach and time is frozen in beach. So it was pretty vague, metaphorical and also could be referred to lack existence of time too. Clearly, to say that time is frozen and that there is no concept of time flow can mean that there is no time
And twilight was only a small colored part of singularity, created and colored by Mercurius for Marie. In its core Singularity is a completely blank slate. devoid of all laws and reason
座の支配、世界法則に属さない場所の総称。どの理にも属さない無色の世界。
So it can't have time. Throne is located in bottom of singularity and throne is devoid of the concept of time
It was also stated that gods transcended space-time
Even Ferederica transcended concepts of space-time and she wasn't a god
拾い上げたそこらに落ちているモノを振り回した程度でクレーターを作って星の地形を変え、果ては慣性の法則や時空間の概念すら無視する。
1-A time is a thing too
Mercurius revolutionning the world by "breaking some concepts" and implanting the idea of Multiverse is considered as a change so big it makes him unable to use the laws of his predecessors because of a lack in compatibility. Which wouldn't happen if they weren't affected by any changes done to it.
Breaking concepts never was mentioned and he destroyed and rewrote whole throne's system and it effected him not creation. Throne is beyond creation
Downgrade side's misconception is that the construction of the multiverse affected God, while it was clearly stated that God destroyed and rewrote the Throne system and it wasn't mere creating a multiverse in throne. If anything throne's system should effect gods not multiverse because throne and gods have similar existence yet multiverse is mere picture
すなわち、すでに神座にある己を知覚したからこそ、そこに至った。それまで単一時間、単一宇宙のみで構成されていた座の機構を、破壊し書き換えたのが彼である」
Yakou's Taiji could only manifest the phenomenon
Whether colored or colorless, or with different abilities and functions, it was still Taiji, and we have been arguing all along that Taiji is a 1-A nature. So if it turns out that Taiji is 1-A, these dimensions were made by someone with 1-A power. Taiji is fundamentally 1-A in both shinza and philsophy. It does not matter if it is a manipulation of laws or reality or phenomena or weather or elements or jungles. A person who is 1-A, if the only ability he shows is the manipulation of pebbles, then he is still 1-A and it is 1-A pebble manip. All it takes is to mix the pebble manip or pebbles with a infinitesimal bit of its own power.
Taiji is fundamentally 1-A:
Taikyoku--Origin of all things in Onmyoudou (Way of Yin and Yang), concept pointing to the nucleus of the universe.
To draw power and grasp the knowledge of everything, the source of all phenomena and the origin of all things. To see all and do all.
So it does not matter if one Taiiji can change the rules and the other can use the phenomena or change the weather. Mixing them with infinitesimal bit of taiji makes them 1-A too
And evolution of Yakou's taiji afffected his phenomenon so they were connected to taiji
彼の拳を止めるために、二回目の十倍以上に練り上げて、二十四の次元断層を使用。
Opposition argument is that it isn't 100%, since Pre-Throne Area lacked the influence of a Taiji and all.
Taiji existed in pre-throne era. Mithra from pre-throne era had taiji, her taiji is known as dualism and through using it she created her creation
And It is like saying that if the Big Bang did not exist at one era but made everything in next era, then the Big Bang would not be the creator of everything and we should downgrade big bang to wall level
Opposition point is that we don't use real life philosophy stuff and all to upgrade a verse. Otherwise verses with Brahman would be 1-A.
My goal was just to show the many Taiji similarities between Shinza and the philsophy, and In my opinion i succeeded in proving that they are exactly the same.
Creation:
All concepts simple or complex are governed and obeyed by near infinite laws
Higher dimensions in the series are part of the phenomenon
夜行は森羅万象を司る座に達しているため、これは厳密なところ異能ではない。単に宇宙の物理現象ならば何でも出来るということであり、世界法則を歪める異能とはまったく逆の部類と言える。
Taiji:
There is near infinite laws but compared to Taiji, they are mere physics. Taiji fills all creation and makes your desired creation
Taiji is source of all reality, cosmos, laws, dualities, phenomenon, everything and origin of all things. This was later reaffirmed by saying that Mercury was the ruler of any known phenomenon
Taiji grants control over creation and also makes you disconned from all things in creation even laws, physics and concepts. It was said that picture can't hurt reality regardless of potency and all creation is picture to gods even concepts. So cleary taiji is external to all creation and every extension of it
Gods are embodiment of their laws (taiji)
Gods transcended anything and everything, they are highest form existence and ultimate transcendence. It has been stated several times that only way for making a law void is transcending it and god's law is absolute and governs over all laws. So they cleary transcended all laws
Taiji also governs over all conceptual dualities
この世にある全ての二元的な現象、概念が流転し万華鏡の如く形を変える綾模様の大曼荼羅。絶対的な法のもと敵対するものが定められたその空間は宇宙の縮図、超級規模の織物。
The large Weave patterened Mandala where all the dualistic phenomenon and concept in this world shifts and changes like a Kaleidoscope. The extent of super fabric is the microcosm of the universe, in which the opposition (dualities) is to be determined by the absolute law.
Singularity is beyond creation and immune to all changes in creation
世界に穿たれた孔の中、事象へ影響を及ぼさない無色の空間。
座の支配、世界法則に属さない場所の総称。
特異点で起きた事象は原則として、世界に影響を及ぼさないので当代の神が座で殺害されても世界の魂が道連れにならない。
Singularity is created by the gods, they can affect and even destroy it, and both the singularity and the gods are out of creation/picture and have similar existence so god scales to singularity
Gods are immutable and they can't be changed no matter what
神は不変であり、その在り方を変える事で神に至る者はあれど、神になってから変節する者は基本的にいない。
何があっても終始一貫して不変であり、人のような情動はない。
And gudou god is most indepedent life form in all of existence
歩く特異点とも形容され、万象における最も自立した生命体に他ならない。
Gods are throne masters and throne transcended anything
いと高き所に坐したまま総てを見通し人知の及ばぬ力を振るう何者かがいる、総てを超越して達する至高の座。
They also transcended space-time and concept of time doesn't exist in throne. Time is meager to gods
It was stated in japanese too
座には時間の概念が存在しない。
その理は 永劫回帰。端的に言えば「リセット」。彼が座に在る限り、彼の望まぬ終わりを迎えれば全ては零へと立ち戻る。 彼の 渇望は 「自分の望む結末以外は認めない」「やり直したい」 死の瞬間に「こんな結末は嫌だ」と流出を行い、神となって過去に戻った彼は、 永き時を生きた後に、自らの 自滅因子であるラインハルトと喰い合い自滅する。 その際にまた「こんな結末は嫌だ」と流出を行う…という無限ループになっている。 まるで卵が先かニワトリが先かのパラドックスのようだが、座に時間の概念がなく、 彼の渇望は時間軸を無視したものであったため、こんな奇妙なことが起こっている。 既知の世界と自らの生に飽いているが、その既知の中で出会ったマルグリット(マリィ)に「唯一愛した既知」と恋し、彼女に新世界の女神たる資質を見出した彼は「彼女の胸に抱かれて死ぬ」ことを自らの終焉と定め行動を開始する。
Even Ferederica transcended concepts of space-time and she wasn't a god
拾い上げたそこらに落ちているモノを振り回した程度でクレーターを作って星の地形を変え、果ては慣性の法則や時空間の概念すら無視する。
Even one of the non-god characters was able to reproduce all concepts and phenomena
』とも真の機能はマシュヤグが惹かれた存在の強い願望を反映する形で複製を造り出す事、製作者であるクワルナフの権能の縮小版とも言えるものである。
物質のみならず概念、現象と言った曖昧なものまで機能の対象であるが、創り出された「なにか」は「男と女」や「幼年期と成人」など、上下左右が反転した鏡像のように元となったモノと決定的な差異を持つ。
So gods cleary transcended every extension of reality, concepts, laws, and phenomena and they are disconned from all their extensions
Debunking downgrade arguments:
Gods are higher dimensional
The higher dimensional was used allegorically several times in the series and shinza is known for using flowery language
So idk why term higher dimension suddenly isn't metaphorical anymore
higher dimensional can be referred to higher existence, consciousness, plane, massive beyond and massively stronger too. Higher dimension also can be 1-A dimension. Dimension is defined by size and there is high 1-A and tier 0 sizes in our tiering system let alone 1-A
Another phase of physics was used for higher dimension
Another phase of physics can be metaphysics, pataphysics, some incomprehensible form of 1-A physics, metaphor and...
It also doesn't make sense too because it countless times stated taiji is source of all laws, transcends all laws and even weaker abilities in series aren't bounded by physics
Yakou's 24D barrier blocked gods
Instead of translating the whole fight, only incomplete parts of it are translated and sent in the thread, which is not reliable at all and pretty suspect and out of context. Sleepy also debunked this and unlike downgrade side sleepy already read whole novels in japanese
https://vsbattles.com/threads/divine-dimensionnal-dance-shinza-bansho-gods-downgrade.115180/post-3700977
https://vsbattles.com/threads/divine-dimensionnal-dance-shinza-bansho-gods-downgrade.115180/post-3701050
https://vsbattles.com/threads/divine-dimensionnal-dance-shinza-bansho-gods-downgrade.115180/post-3701163
But however yakou already had a taiji value 2, only colorless
彼は自分が何故太極をもつのか、さらに十より前の自分の過去をよく知らないなど、一般人であれば当然に疑念に思うであろう問題を抱えているが、彼自身はそのことに全く頓着していない。
初伝 太極 2
Singularity also is beyond all creation, all laws and made of colorless taiji
世界に穿たれた孔の中、事象へ影響を及ぼさない無色の空間。
It was even said that events at singularity will not affect creation
座の支配、世界法則に属さない場所の総称。
And singularity is outside of all laws
特異点で起きた事象は原則として、世界に影響を及ぼさないので当代の神が座で殺害されても世界の魂が道連れにならない。
Even death of gods in singularity doesn't effect creation
So singularity is beyond all changes in creation same as Yakou's taiji
It was also said that the evolution of Yakou's taiji suddenly amped dimensions 10 times, so the dimensions and Taiji were connected.
彼の拳を止めるために、二回目の十倍以上に練り上げて、二十四の次元断層を使用。
Time existed in twilight beach
It also stated concept of time doesn't exist in twilight beach and time is frozen in beach. So it was pretty vague, metaphorical and also could be referred to lack existence of time too. Clearly, to say that time is frozen and that there is no concept of time flow can mean that there is no time
And twilight was only a small colored part of singularity, created and colored by Mercurius for Marie. In its core Singularity is a completely blank slate. devoid of all laws and reason
座の支配、世界法則に属さない場所の総称。どの理にも属さない無色の世界。
So it can't have time. Throne is located in bottom of singularity and throne is devoid of the concept of time
It was also stated that gods transcended space-time
Even Ferederica transcended concepts of space-time and she wasn't a god
拾い上げたそこらに落ちているモノを振り回した程度でクレーターを作って星の地形を変え、果ては慣性の法則や時空間の概念すら無視する。
1-A time is a thing too
Mercurius revolutionning the world by "breaking some concepts" and implanting the idea of Multiverse is considered as a change so big it makes him unable to use the laws of his predecessors because of a lack in compatibility. Which wouldn't happen if they weren't affected by any changes done to it.
Breaking concepts never was mentioned and he destroyed and rewrote whole throne's system and it effected him not creation. Throne is beyond creation
Downgrade side's misconception is that the construction of the multiverse affected God, while it was clearly stated that God destroyed and rewrote the Throne system and it wasn't mere creating a multiverse in throne. If anything throne's system should effect gods not multiverse because throne and gods have similar existence yet multiverse is mere picture
すなわち、すでに神座にある己を知覚したからこそ、そこに至った。それまで単一時間、単一宇宙のみで構成されていた座の機構を、破壊し書き換えたのが彼である」
Yakou's Taiji could only manifest the phenomenon
Whether colored or colorless, or with different abilities and functions, it was still Taiji, and we have been arguing all along that Taiji is a 1-A nature. So if it turns out that Taiji is 1-A, these dimensions were made by someone with 1-A power. Taiji is fundamentally 1-A in both shinza and philsophy. It does not matter if it is a manipulation of laws or reality or phenomena or weather or elements or jungles. A person who is 1-A, if the only ability he shows is the manipulation of pebbles, then he is still 1-A and it is 1-A pebble manip. All it takes is to mix the pebble manip or pebbles with a infinitesimal bit of its own power.
Taiji is fundamentally 1-A:
Taikyoku--Origin of all things in Onmyoudou (Way of Yin and Yang), concept pointing to the nucleus of the universe.
To draw power and grasp the knowledge of everything, the source of all phenomena and the origin of all things. To see all and do all.
So it does not matter if one Taiiji can change the rules and the other can use the phenomena or change the weather. Mixing them with infinitesimal bit of taiji makes them 1-A too
And evolution of Yakou's taiji afffected his phenomenon so they were connected to taiji
彼の拳を止めるために、二回目の十倍以上に練り上げて、二十四の次元断層を使用。
Opposition argument is that it isn't 100%, since Pre-Throne Area lacked the influence of a Taiji and all.
Taiji existed in pre-throne era. Mithra from pre-throne era had taiji, her taiji is known as dualism and through using it she created her creation
And It is like saying that if the Big Bang did not exist at one era but made everything in next era, then the Big Bang would not be the creator of everything and we should downgrade big bang to wall level
Opposition point is that we don't use real life philosophy stuff and all to upgrade a verse. Otherwise verses with Brahman would be 1-A.
My goal was just to show the many Taiji similarities between Shinza and the philsophy, and In my opinion i succeeded in proving that they are exactly the same.
Last edited:
- Status
