Divine Dimensional Dance 2nd round: Shinza Gods downgrade

[QuasiYuri]

stuff

I based the "1-A side" of my summary on yours, but it's still good that you reposted it.

Also for the thing about Mithra, I said "the influence of Taiji", since Pre-Throne era was fine till Naraka arrived and people stopped dying. It was more of a precision than a true counter tho.

@Antvasima , I think we should call the rest of the staff now, yes.

 

[Infera28]

@Antvasima I think so. I think just reading my posts, QuasiYuri and KingPin0422 is enough

This is KingPin0422's post

https://vsbattles.com/threads/divine-dimensional-dance-2nd-round-shinza-gods-downgrade.115249/post-3723882

 

[QuasiYuri]

@Antvasima I think so. I think just reading my posts, QuasiYuri and KingPin0422 is enough

This is KingPin0422's post

https://vsbattles.com/threads/divine-dimensional-dance-2nd-round-shinza-gods-downgrade.115249/post-3723882

I would advice to still read at least around one page (besides the OP ofc, which should always be read), because these 3 specific post obviously aren't encompassing every back and forth they had before and after.

 

[Antvasima]

Note: I realized that I use "however" a lot. It actually just means that it is a counter to counter.

Also I may forget a thing or two, so don't hesitate to tell me if you see such thing.

On the downgrade side​

-The argument about Taiji being 1-A is that since it created everything + can rewrite it and that their users are stated to be disconnected from existence/laws, it means that it holds a 1-A transcendance with absolutely every single thing in the world, including dimensions, time, etc... Something which isn't actually stated and is instead pure deduction.

However, this notion is contradicted by a lot of things:

-Akuro, a god, is called higher dimensional in an explanation about the nature of higher dimensions, even using the same terminology as others instances (also denying this feat as wrong/unknowledgeable/metaphorical/etc... is denying the only proof of dimensions being higher infinities we use so far).

The opposition answered this by saying that it was one of the many metaphor Shinza used.

However in that case it is explaining why Akuro couldn't be harmed and gave clear explanation regarding the fact that he was of a higher dimension, using the terminology K3 uses for them.

-3 Gods' laws were blocked by Madara's dimensional barriers, which use the aforementionned terminology + are already accepted as higher dimensional

Opposition answered by stating that Yakou weakened them, using him calling Morei's true name as a proof or saying that they weren't actual higher dimensions.

However Morei's scenes are either another fight or after the scene given, making them unrelated.
While them not being actual higher D is contradicted by them using the exact same terminology as the ones above + being already accepted as such.

Another argument is that since Yakou had Taiji, it means that the dimensions were being boosted by said Taiji.

The counter to this one is that Yakou's special thing with his Mukei is that he CAN'T change things, only summon them. So no boost here.
Not to mention that the scan used just say "it uses more than last time". But he like... already got his Taiji value uped last time too. Definitely nothing changing.

-Mibu slash was revealed to be a higher dimensional thing, which can even cut Tenmas

Was argued by other side to not be litteral, but it is a clear explanation/revelation of the true nature of the distorsion, and it being called higher dimensional right before being said to be able to harm Tenma is

-This one is very minor, but only those with godhood can understand complex geometric space, which is what prevent others from reaching Taiji and all

Opposition answered that it didn't mean Taiji was limited to this. It isn't wrong, since it is just a supporting evidence.

-The Throne's dimension is one among many in Paradise Lost, with others regular higher dimensions being a pathway to it (despite 1-A being unreachable no matter how much higher D are stacked up).

-The Twilight Beach is a world of frozen time, despite Gods/Singularity/Throne/etc... not being supposed to be reached by any form of concept according to the other side.

Opposition said that it was wrong because it was said that this world lacked the concept of time. Which is actually a misread, because it only stated that it lacked the flow of time. Since time is, not flowing.

Statements of Throne lacking the concept of time was also used, and it is legit to an extent, since it refers to it not caring about Merc law shenanigans. However same law is affecting everyone.

And statements of transcendance over time, which are pretty vague and from the english version (which added some of these statements despite not existing in the original).

-Mercurius revolutionning the world by "breaking some concepts" and implanting the idea of Multiverse is considered as a change so big it makes him unable to use the laws of his predecessors because of a lack in compatibility. Which wouldn't happen if they weren't affected by any changes done to it.

Opposition argument is that it talks about messing with the Throne system, making it unrelated to the world.

However it would show that the Throne was unable to apply an extension of the world (idea of Multiverse) by itself, despite being supposed to also be above every single extension of it.

-If it was inherently superior, then things like Briah, which are mere downscaled emanation, would make the user a fulll 1-A guy.

Opposition answered that we accept Briah as 1-A hax. Which is true but not what the other side meant. The argument here is that they should be full 1-A guy and not just have their imposition being 1-A. Although this one isn't too important

As such, downgrade side think that something like 1-B is more accurate than 1-A.

On the 1-A side​

-Taiji is stated to be the origin of everything, concepts, laws, reality included.

Opposition argument is that it isn't 100%, since Pre-Throne Area lacked the influence of a Taiji and all.

However it doesn't matter much anyway, and Taiji is still the origin of what's in the current iteration of creation.

It doesn't mean 1-A transcendance over it.

-Taiji in philosophy is 1-A, and Taiji in Shinza is similar.

Opposition point is that we don't use real life philosophy stuff and all to upgrade a verse. Otherwise verses with Brahman would be 1-A.

-It is stated that Taiji fills all of creation and allows you to manipulate it, bend things to your law

Opposition argument is that it is law rewritting, nothing 1-A.

-It is said that Gods and coe transcend reality and are disconnected for the laws of the world. They are also stated to see it as a canvas on which they can paint.

Opposition is that you can do the same by merely having one level of transcendance, not a 1-A one.

Same for the canvas statement, which is either referring to the fact that their laws are overwritting stuff, which is considered as "painting" with their law.
And things about transcending "the picture" are used to say that they are higher dimensional beings, as shown with Akuro.

-Singularity is beyond creation, outside of laws and immune to its change.

Opposition argument is that the scan actually says that nothing that happen in Singularity will affect creation. Which prove disconnection, but no 1-A transcendance.

-1-A dimensions are a thing.

Except that 1-A for Shinza is based on the fact that they are supposed to be above every single extension of said dimensions. Obviously you can't both get a rating for not being touched by water when you get it splashed to your face several time in a week.

Another point of the opposition related to the whole stuff is that some points are based on 1-A being a given (mainly Yakou barriers somehow being 1-A because it "blocked a 1-A being"), which is a backward logic.

For these reasons, the person on this side think that 1-A should say

Either way​

I would greatly recommand reading at very least one page or the major arguments of each, because while a summary is cool and all, it obviously isn't the same as a 4 pages thread.

Just a recommandation tho, I can understand why one wouldn't want to read a big debate and all.

Everything's left to staff judgment now.

This is my summary: (Yuri added one or two new ponts in his summary, so I answered them too)

Creation:

All concepts simple or complex are governed and obeyed by near infinite laws

Higher dimensions in the series are part of the phenomenon

夜行は森羅万象を司る座に達しているため、これは厳密なところ異能ではない。単に宇宙の物理現象ならば何でも出来るということであり、世界法則を歪める異能とはまったく逆の部類と言える。

Taiji:

There is near infinite laws but compared to Taiji, they are mere physics. Taiji fills all creation and makes your desired creation

Taiji is source of all reality, cosmos, laws, dualities, phenomenon, everything and origin of all things. This was later reaffirmed by saying that Mercury was the ruler of any known phenomenon

Taiji grants control over creation and also makes you disconned from all things in creation even laws, physics and concepts. It was said that picture can't hurt reality regardless of potency and all creation is picture to gods even concepts. So cleary taiji is external to all creation and every extension of it

Gods are embodiment of their laws (taiji)

Gods transcended anything and everything, they are highest form existence and ultimate transcendence. It has been stated several times that only way for making a law void is transcending it and god's law is absolute and governs over all laws. So they cleary transcended all laws

Taiji also governs over all conceptual dualities

この世にある全ての二元的な現象、概念が流転し万華鏡の如く形を変える綾模様の大曼荼羅。絶対的な法のもと敵対するものが定められたその空間は宇宙の縮図、超級規模の織物。

The large Weave patterened Mandala where all the dualistic phenomenon and concept in this world shifts and changes like a Kaleidoscope. The extent of super fabric is the microcosm of the universe, in which the opposition (dualities) is to be determined by the absolute law.

Singularity is beyond creation and immune to all changes in creation

世界に穿たれた孔の中、事象へ影響を及ぼさない無色の空間。

座の支配、世界法則に属さない場所の総称。

特異点で起きた事象は原則として、世界に影響を及ぼさないので当代の神が座で殺害されても世界の魂が道連れにならない。

Singularity is created by the gods, they can affect and even destroy it, and both the singularity and the gods are out of creation/picture and have similar existence so god scales to singularity

Gods are immutable and they can't be changed no matter what

神は不変であり、その在り方を変える事で神に至る者はあれど、神になってから変節する者は基本的にいない。
何があっても終始一貫して不変であり、人のような情動はない。

And gudou god is most indepedent life form in all of existence

歩く特異点とも形容され、万象における最も自立した生命体に他ならない。

Gods are throne masters and throne transcended anything

いと高き所に坐したまま総てを見通し人知の及ばぬ力を振るう何者かがいる、総てを超越して達する至高の座。

They also transcended space-time and concept of time doesn't exist in throne. Time is meager to gods

It was stated in japanese too

座には時間の概念が存在しない。

その理は 永劫回帰。端的に言えば「リセット」。彼が座に在る限り、彼の望まぬ終わりを迎えれば全ては零へと立ち戻る。 彼の 渇望は 「自分の望む結末以外は認めない」「やり直したい」 死の瞬間に「こんな結末は嫌だ」と流出を行い、神となって過去に戻った彼は、 永き時を生きた後に、自らの 自滅因子であるラインハルトと喰い合い自滅する。 その際にまた「こんな結末は嫌だ」と流出を行う…という無限ループになっている。 まるで卵が先かニワトリが先かのパラドックスのようだが、座に時間の概念がなく、 彼の渇望は時間軸を無視したものであったため、こんな奇妙なことが起こっている。 既知の世界と自らの生に飽いているが、その既知の中で出会ったマルグリット(マリィ)に「唯一愛した既知」と恋し、彼女に新世界の女神たる資質を見出した彼は「彼女の胸に抱かれて死ぬ」ことを自らの終焉と定め行動を開始する。

Even Ferederica transcended concepts of space-time and she wasn't a god

拾い上げたそこらに落ちているモノを振り回した程度でクレーターを作って星の地形を変え、果ては慣性の法則や時空間の概念すら無視する。

Even one of the non-god characters was able to reproduce all concepts and phenomena

』とも真の機能はマシュヤグが惹かれた存在の強い願望を反映する形で複製を造り出す事、製作者であるクワルナフの権能の縮小版とも言えるものである。
物質のみならず概念、現象と言った曖昧なものまで機能の対象であるが、創り出された「なにか」は「男と女」や「幼年期と成人」など、上下左右が反転した鏡像のように元となったモノと決定的な差異を持つ。

So gods cleary transcended every extension of reality, concepts, laws, and phenomena and they are disconned from all their extensions

Debunking downgrade arguments:

Gods are higher dimensional

The higher dimensional was used allegorically several times in the series and shinza is known for using flowery language

So idk why term higher dimension suddenly isn't metaphorical anymore

higher dimensional can be referred to higher existence, consciousness, plane, massive beyond and massively stronger too. Higher dimension also can be 1-A dimension. Dimension is defined by size and there is high 1-A and tier 0 sizes in our tiering system let alone 1-A

Another phase of physics was used for higher dimension

Another phase of physics can be metaphysics, pataphysics, some incomprehensible form of 1-A physics, metaphor and...

It also doesn't make sense too because it countless times stated taiji is source of all laws, transcends all laws and even weaker abilities in series aren't bounded by physics

Yakou's 24D barrier blocked gods

Instead of translating the whole fight, only incomplete parts of it are translated and sent in the thread, which is not reliable at all and pretty suspect and out of context. Sleepy also debunked this and unlike downgrade side sleepy already read whole novels in japanese


https://vsbattles.com/threads/divine-dimensionnal-dance-shinza-bansho-gods-downgrade.115180/post-3700977

https://vsbattles.com/threads/divine-dimensionnal-dance-shinza-bansho-gods-downgrade.115180/post-3701050

https://vsbattles.com/threads/divine-dimensionnal-dance-shinza-bansho-gods-downgrade.115180/post-3701163

But however yakou already had a taiji value 2, only colorless

彼は自分が何故太極をもつのか、さらに十より前の自分の過去をよく知らないなど、一般人であれば当然に疑念に思うであろう問題を抱えているが、彼自身はそのことに全く頓着していない。

初伝 太極 2

Singularity also is beyond all creation, all laws and made of colorless taiji

世界に穿たれた孔の中、事象へ影響を及ぼさない無色の空間。

It was even said that events at singularity will not affect creation

座の支配、世界法則に属さない場所の総称。

And singularity is outside of all laws

特異点で起きた事象は原則として、世界に影響を及ぼさないので当代の神が座で殺害されても世界の魂が道連れにならない。

Even death of gods in singularity doesn't effect creation

So singularity is beyond all changes in creation same as Yakou's taiji

It was also said that the evolution of Yakou's taiji suddenly amped dimensions 10 times, so the dimensions and Taiji were connected.

彼の拳を止めるために、二回目の十倍以上に練り上げて、二十四の次元断層を使用。

Time existed in twilight beach

It also stated concept of time doesn't exist in twilight beach and time is frozen in beach. So it was pretty vague, metaphorical and also could be referred to lack existence of time too. Clearly, to say that time is frozen and that there is no concept of time flow can mean that there is no time

And twilight was only a small colored part of singularity, created and colored by Mercurius for Marie. In its core Singularity is a completely blank slate. devoid of all laws and reason

座の支配、世界法則に属さない場所の総称。どの理にも属さない無色の世界。

So it can't have time. Throne is located in bottom of singularity and throne is devoid of the concept of time

It was also stated that gods transcended space-time

Even Ferederica transcended concepts of space-time and she wasn't a god

拾い上げたそこらに落ちているモノを振り回した程度でクレーターを作って星の地形を変え、果ては慣性の法則や時空間の概念すら無視する。

1-A time is a thing too

Mercurius revolutionning the world by "breaking some concepts" and implanting the idea of Multiverse is considered as a change so big it makes him unable to use the laws of his predecessors because of a lack in compatibility. Which wouldn't happen if they weren't affected by any changes done to it.

Breaking concepts never was mentioned and he destroyed and rewrote whole throne's system and it effected him not creation. Throne is beyond creation

Downgrade side's misconception is that the construction of the multiverse affected God, while it was clearly stated that God destroyed and rewrote the Throne system and it wasn't mere creating a multiverse in throne. If anything throne's system should effect gods not multiverse because throne and gods have similar existence yet multiverse is mere picture

すなわち、すでに神座にある己を知覚したからこそ、そこに至った。それまで単一時間、単一宇宙のみで構成されていた座の機構を、破壊し書き換えたのが彼である」

Yakou's Taiji could only manifest the phenomenon

Whether colored or colorless, or with different abilities and functions, it was still Taiji, and we have been arguing all along that Taiji is a 1-A nature. So if it turns out that Taiji is 1-A, these dimensions were made by someone with 1-A power. Taiji is fundamentally 1-A in both shinza and philsophy. It does not matter if it is a manipulation of laws or reality or phenomena or weather or elements or jungles. A person who is 1-A, if the only ability he shows is the manipulation of pebbles, then he is still 1-A and it is 1-A pebble manip. All it takes is to mix the pebble manip or pebbles with a infinitesimal bit of its own power.

Taiji is fundamentally 1-A:

Taikyoku--Origin of all things in Onmyoudou (Way of Yin and Yang), concept pointing to the nucleus of the universe.

To draw power and grasp the knowledge of everything, the source of all phenomena and the origin of all things. To see all and do all.

So it does not matter if one Taiiji can change the rules and the other can use the phenomena or change the weather. Mixing them with infinitesimal bit of taiji makes them 1-A too

And evolution of Yakou's taiji afffected his phenomenon so they were connected to taiji

彼の拳を止めるために、二回目の十倍以上に練り上げて、二十四の次元断層を使用。

Opposition argument is that it isn't 100%, since Pre-Throne Area lacked the influence of a Taiji and all.

Taiji existed in pre-throne era. Mithra from pre-throne era had taiji, her taiji is known as dualism and through using it she created her creation

And It is like saying that if the Big Bang did not exist at one era but made everything in next era, then the Big Bang would not be the creator of everything and we should downgrade big bang to wall level

Opposition point is that we don't use real life philosophy stuff and all to upgrade a verse. Otherwise verses with Brahman would be 1-A.

My goal was just to show the many Taiji similarities between Shinza and the philsophy, and In my opinion i succeeded in proving that they are exactly the same.

@AKM sama @Promestein @DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @SomebodyData @The_real_cal_howard @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Andytrenom @DarkDragonMedeus @Wokistan @Mr._Bambu @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Damage3245 @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali @Abstractions @WeeklyBattles @Colonel_Krukov @Shadowbokunohero @Mindovin @Jvando @SamanPatou @Just_a_Random_Butler @Dino_Ranger_Black @Gemmysaur @JustSomeWeirdo @LordGriffin1000 @Theglassman12 @Crabwhale @Eficiente @GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Firestorm808 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Everything12 @Duedate8898 @Planck69 @KingTempest

We would greatly appreciate if some of you would be willing to evaluate the above arguments. Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[Qawsedf234]

We would greatly appreciate if some of you would be willing to evaluate the above arguments. Thanks in advance for any help

I'll weigh in after I go through everything on pages 2 and 3. Though it'll either be really late today or tomorrow as a warning before I can post a overview of my thoughts.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. You can start by reading the summaries that I quoted.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Both sides seem to bring up excellent points, and I normally do trust QuasiYuri and does look like someone who's a potential candidate on the Conceptual/Outerversal experts. But so does Ultima Reality as he's pretty much one of the main people who made the new tiering system alongside some pointers from DontTalkDT.

But anyway, for the topic at hand. I already mentioned 1-A tiers and aforementioned list of abilities are over my head, but I think Infera is making just a little bit more sense in clarifying points. So I'm neutral until I here more points and/or votes from other staff members, but so far leaning towards Infera's take.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.

 

[Gemstic]

Does this make any difference:

夜行は森羅万象を司る座に達しているため、これは厳密なところ異能ではない。単に宇宙の物理現象ならば何でも出来るということであり、世界法則を歪める異能とはまったく逆の部類と言える。

"Yakou has reached the Throne that governs everything in creation, so strictly speaking, this is not a superpower. It's simply something that could realize any physical phenomenon of the universe, and could be said to fall into the category of powers that are totally different from any superpower that cause distortion to the laws of the world."

 

[QuasiYuri]

Does this make any difference:

夜行は森羅万象を司る座に達しているため、これは厳密なところ異能ではない。単に宇宙の物理現象ならば何でも出来るということであり、世界法則を歪める異能とはまったく逆の部類と言える。

"Yakou is sitting on the Throne that governs everything in creation, so strictly speaking, this is not a superpower. It's simply something that could realize any physical phenomenon of the universe, and could be said to fall into the category of powers that are totally different from any superpower that cause distortion to the laws of the world."

That's already one of my point and counter point, but still good to post ig.

 

[KingTempest]

Both sides seem to bring up excellent points, and I normally do trust QuasiYuri and does look like someone who's a potential candidate on the Conceptual/Outerversal experts. But so does Ultima Reality as he's pretty much one of the main people who made the new tiering system alongside some pointers from DontTalkDT.

But anyway, for the topic at hand. I already mentioned 1-A tiers and aforementioned list of abilities are over my head, but I think Infera is making just a little bit more sense in clarifying points. So I'm neutral until I here more points and/or votes from other staff members, but so far leaning towards Infera's take.

DDM shares my opinion on this topic

 

[Gemstic]

That's already one of my point and counter point, but still good to post ig.

Yeah, I was only wondering whether the said text implies that those who have reached the Throne are able to use powers that couldn't be described with just calling them law manipulation or something of the sort (at least in the conventional sense). As they are not 'superpowers', strictly speaking. (it'd also make the whole 'painting' thing even more 'realistic')

"夜行は森羅万象を司る座に達しているため"、"これは厳密なところ異能ではない。"

"Because Yakou has reached the Throne that governs everything in creation" -> "[The thing he uses] isn't really a superpower."

Though if other people who have reached the Throne are shown to be using powers that are specifically called 'superpowers' (異能), even after their ascension, this text would just serve as a counter point I guess.

P.S.: I don't know if it's already accepted by everyone, but it seems any time-based contradiction/anti-feat could be ignored if it's something related to the Throne. Because it is clearly stated that contradictions (related to time) are allowed to happen over there, as it is devoid of the said concept in the first place. (in the scan, the contradiction shown during the emanation process is stated in order to emphasize this point)

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Can't say much about Yakou. Far as I know, he's the only character in Shinza who has reached the Throne and gained Taikyoku. Again to bring the point that he can't outright do things like rewrite laws and such only the Hadou/Gudou Gods can do initially, but only make physical phenomenon realized or performed but still Taikyoku no less.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

We would greatly appreciate if some of you would be willing to evaluate the above arguments. Thanks in advance for any help.

Sorry but I don't think I'll be much help here given I'm not well versed with Tier 1 stuff in general and my lack of knowledge on the series makes it worse.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Yeah, I was only wondering whether the said text implies that those who have reached the Throne are able to use powers that couldn't be described with just calling them law manipulation or something of the sort (at least in the conventional sense). As they are not 'superpowers', strictly speaking. (it'd also make the whole 'painting' thing even more 'realistic')

Though if other people who have reached the Throne are shown to be using powers that are specifically called 'superpowers' (異能), even after their ascension, this text would just serve as a counter point I guess.

"Superpowers" is technically used even for both Distorsions and Taiji (like, they also are in the same category on profiles last time I checked).
It's really more about Yakou's special lack of craving here, since no others Taiji user profiles mention anything similar iirc + it does say that it is the opposite of modifying laws, which is Taiji main thing.

P.S.: I don't know if it's already accepted by everyone, but it seems any time-based contradiction/anti-feat could be ignored if it's something related to the Throne. Because it is clearly stated that contradictions (related to time) are allowed to happen over there, as it is devoid of the said concept in the first place. (in the scan, the contradiction shown during the emanation process is stated in order to emphasize this point)

Context is that it is about the time paradox of Mercurius being born in a world he already emanated, which the Throne can accept. Don't think it should be used to discard others time-related shenanigans (although it's not like they matter too much).

 

[Antvasima]

Sorry but I don't think I'll be much help here given I'm not well versed with Tier 1 stuff in general and my lack of knowledge on the series makes it worse.

Okay. No problem.

Help from other staff members would be very appreciated here.

 

[Planck69]

Reading through the summary, I find myself leaning towards Infera for now.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Reading through the summary, I find myself leaning towards Infera for now.

May I ask if there's anything in particular which made you choose this side?

 

[Planck69]

Both arguments are fairly solid. Though, I find the degree to which Taiji is described to be transcendent of space and time as well as the root of reality sounds somewhat fitting for 1-A, the way I see it. That and the spatial dimensions seem unlikely to be compact to me even without the canvas painting analogy (I believe this is what is used for the dimensions be qualitatively superior to each other right)?

Of course, this is based on the summaries and can change with further input from staff knowledgeable on the tiering system.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Both arguments are fairly solid. Though, I find the degree to which Taiji is described to be transcendent of space and time as well as the root of reality sounds somewhat fitting for 1-A, the way I see it. That and the spatial dimensions seem unlikely to be compact to me even without the canvas painting analogy (I believe this is what is used for the dimensions be qualitatively superior to each other right)?

Of course, this is based on the summaries and can change with further input from staff knowledgeable on the tiering system.

Dimensions are based on this analogy yeah. Although going by Infera's summary, there's no proof of them being higher stuff since he discards the explanation as metaphorical and not referring to spatial dimensions.

What I meant is more like "which statements imply 1-A transcendance?" I see the bunch of transcendance and disconnection stuff, but nothing talking about what's needed for 1-A (without including the feats going against), which is why I wanted to know.

 

[Planck69]

Are the higher dimensions analogies in that they're aren't actual higher dimensions in the multiverse o? Taiji being the conceptual source of space and time as well as reality seems 1-A to me based on the assumption that they're actual higher dimensions in the multiverse to begin with.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Dimensions are based on this analogy yeah. Although going by Infera's summary, there's no proof of them being higher stuff since he discards the explanation as metaphorical and not referring to spatial dimensions.

What I meant is more like "which statements imply 1-A transcendance?" I see the bunch of transcendance and disconnection stuff, but nothing talking about what's needed for 1-A (without including the feats going against), which is why I wanted to know.

I think you are missing one of the few things that gave a 1-A transcendence
"I control all things in creation and I am disconnected from it cause of my taiji"

You do realize this means nothing in creation is supposed to be able to affect him?

Then some other statements but it will just be a repeat of what was said already

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think you are missing one of the few things that gave a 1-A transcendence
"I control all things in creation and I am disconnected from it cause of my taiji"

You do realize this means nothing in creation is supposed to be able to affect him?

Then some other statements but it will just be a repeat of what was said already

And this statement isn't anywhere near 1-A. A lot of characters have such statements, and none are 1-A.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Are the higher dimensions analogies in that they're aren't actual higher dimensions in the multiverse o? Taiji being the conceptual source of space and time as well as reality seems 1-A to me based on the assumption that they're actual higher dimensions in the multiverse to begin with.

That's what Infera think at least. Because Dies Irae english version uses this a lot, he thinks that K3 has to be metaphorical too.
One of my points is how they are actual higher dimensions, with even the terminology (K3's terminology) about them being the exact same between the scenes I used. Also because it's supposed to be a factual explanation on the nature of a guy and another on the nature of an attack.

Being the conceptual source of the concept of space, time and reality isn't enough for 1-A tho. This little guy is 2-A and this one Unknown despite fitting this criteria for example.

 

[PrinceofPein]

And this statement isn't anywhere near 1-A. A lot of characters have such statements, and none are 1-A.

Not about this statement alone and we are not talking about other verses just shinza and its cosmology and the fact that they transcend creation and all physical laws and space like a painter to a canvas.
Forget shinza, answer this question
Tell me what is your tier is you
1. Control all things in creation while disconnected from it
2. Creation is a canvas to you
3. You embody space and time around your palm
4. You are the source of reality and everything and also can't be affected by anything in the said reality

 

[PrinceofPein]

That's what Infera think at least. Because Dies Irae english version uses this a lot, he thinks that K3 has to be metaphorical too.
One of my points is how they are actual higher dimensions, with even the terminology (K3's terminology) about them being the exact same between the scenes I used. Also because it's supposed to be a factual explanation on the nature of a guy and another on the nature of an attack.

Being the conceptual source of the concept of space, time and reality isn't enough for 1-A tho. This little guy is 2-A and this one Unknown despite fitting this criteria for example.

What is with bringing another verse into arguments when they are clearly two different things?
1. Although i have not seen pokemon, i know Arceus is not disconnected from his said creation as far as I know neither does he view them as paintings e.t.c.
2. The other guy is unknown, u think we should also put unknown for everyone in shinza?

 

[Planck69]

Being the conceptual source of the concept of space, time and reality isn't enough for 1-A tho. This little guy is 2-A and this one Unknown despite fitting this criteria for example.

It can be if actual higher dimensions are present beyond the normal 4 (Like in relation to a 9, 10, 20-dimensional multiverse) IIRC, since it can mean that space and time regardless of number of dimensions is sourced by this concept.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Not about this statement alone and we are not talking about other verses just shinza and its cosmology and the fact that they transcend creation and all physical laws and space like a painter to a canvas.
Forget shinza, answer this question
Tell me what is your tier is you
1. Control all things in creation while disconnected from it
2. Creation is a canvas to you
3. You embody space and time around your palm
4. You are the source of reality and everything and also can't be affected by anything in the said reality

Doing a favor to Shinza wouldn't do us any good, which is why comparing it is more benefic than the opposite.

1. Tier of said creation.
2. One level of R/F difference at best.
3. Even a 9-B with space-time manipulation can have stuff a statement
4. Tier of said creation or one level of R/F difference depending of what it exactly means, because "not being affected" is vague and doesn't directly translate to 1-A transcendance (without taking into account that it doesn't apply here).

 

[QuasiYuri]

It can be if actual higher dimensions are present beyond the normal 4 (Like in relation to a 9, 10, 20-dimensional multiverse) IIRC, since it can mean that space and time regardless of number of dimensions is sourced by this concept.

You would actually need the work to say so, "it can mean" is more on the assumption side, which obviously isn't good when dealing with any tier.
Having 5 or 4 dimensions is also not supposed to matter.

 

[Planck69]

Well yeah and Taiji seems to imply this, based on what's being claimed in the summaries, at leat to me.

Though, I'll wait for other comments to clarify befor committing myself completely to either side.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Doing a favor to Shinza wouldn't do us any good, which is why comparing it is more benefic than the opposite.

1. Tier of said creation.
2. One level of R/F difference at best.
3. Even a 9-B with space-time manipulation can have stuff a statement
4. Tier of said creation, because "not being affected" is vague and doesn't directly translate to 1-A transcendance (without taking into account that it doesn't apply here).

Its not a favor to shinza since its clearly two different things and verse and different basis

1. The tier is unknown, but we know it has higher dimensions and difference between higher dimension and lower ones are that the higher are vastly if not infinitely superior to lower ones (which still counts for higher infinities for the dimensions)
2. I mean a creation with higher dimensions and you view that creation as a canvas/painting
3. Not just embodying space time (stop evading) you control all of it while existing outside of it and view everything from a higher plane (creation - painting)
4. refer to my number 1&2

pleaae not about shinza, what's the tier of this character?

 

[Gemstic]

"Superpowers" is technically used even for both Distorsions and Taiji (like, they also are in the same category on profiles last time I checked).
It's really more about Yakou's special lack of craving here, since no others Taiji user profiles mention anything similar iirc + it does say that it is the opposite of modifying laws, which is Taiji main thing.

I see. The thing is, the text is worded in a way that implies that reaching the Throne in itself allows you to gain "some kind of special power/ability" that can't be really called 'superpower'. Just look at the statement below:

"夜行は森羅万象を司る座に達しているため"、"これは厳密なところ異能ではない。"

"Because Yakou has reached the Throne that governs everything in creation" -> "[The thing he uses] isn't really a superpower."

It isn't anything difficult to understand the reason behind my deduction. There was no point in explicitly mentioning that 'only because Person A has reached Point X that they're able to use something that is not considered a regular power', if it's not something particularly different from what the power 'they' had earlier.

In any case, that's all I'll say about it for now.


About the dimension thing with the 'same terminology', given the fact that Yakou's power is to manifest the natural phenomenon of the universe, him using the higher dimensions of the physical world even after gaining Taikyoku doesn't really contradict anything, does it? It would only mean that the physical dimensions he manifests are structured by his 1-A power (assuming his Tier remains 1-A, of course).

Context is that it is about the time paradox of Mercurius being born in a world he already emanated, which the Throne can accept. Don't think it should be used to discard others time-related shenanigans (although it's not like they matter too much).

I'd have thought the same if not for the fact that "even" was used to emphasize the contradiction. Using even in such a sentence implies the possibility of multiple contradictions.

For example, 'I can even lift a Bus' would not mean that the speaker can only lift a Bus. It simply means that Bus is one of the things that they are capable of lifting.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Its not a favor to shinza since its clearly two different things and verse and different basis

1. The tier is unknown, but we know it has higher dimensions and difference between higher dimension and lower ones are that the higher are vastly if not infinitely superior to lower ones (which still counts for higher infinities for the dimensions)
2. I mean a creation with higher dimensions and you view that creation as a canvas/painting
3. Not just embodying space time (stop evading) you control all of it while existing outside of it and view everything from a higher plane (creation - painting)
4. refer to my number 1&2

pleaae not about shinza, what's the tier of this character?

1. Let's say there's like 7 known dimensions? Then 7D.
2-Again, it depends of what it refers to. At best, it is one layer of R/F transcendance.
3-I'm not evading, you litteraly used a unrelated statement. One layer of R/F transcendance, that's how we treat it for everyone.

If we say creation is 7D, this guy would be rated as 1-C.

 

[PrinceofPein]

1. Let's say there's like 7 known dimensions? Then 7D.
2-Again, it depends of what it refers to. At best, it is one layer of R/F transcendance.
3-I'm not evading, you litteraly used a unrelated statement. One layer of R/F transcendance, that's how we treat it for everyone.

If we say creation is 7D, this guy would be rated as 1-C.

Okay let's say the creation is 7D, the guy views it as a painting and he is disconnected from whatever happens to the said creation and he can't be affected by it, what's the tier?

 

[Infera28]

I said the higher dimension and higher dimensional were used allegorically, not the interaction between Soujirou and Akuro was allegorical

In any case, I think I have proved that the gods are completely outside of all extensions of reality, concepts, laws and dimensions too and it was proved by the fact that what happens in the singularity can in no way affect the creation, and that the gods are the most independent forms of existence and cannot be changed and It has even been said many times that the gods and the throne transcended anything and everything so they have full transcendence over all extensions of concepts

In fact, the higher dimensions in shinza are addressed as part of the phenomena, and it was said that Taiji is the source of all phenomena and rules over every known phenomena. It was even said that every phenomena is determined by law of God, and even non-god characters in the series were able to create all phenomena. You can find all scans and translations in my summary

The gods also clearly have Type 3 (True General Transduality)

Obviously creating all reality, concepts, laws, conceptual dualities, higher dimensions, existing outside of them and transcending them regardless of events this is not just a degree of reality/fiction transcendence

 

[Infera28]

I also thought that we were not going to discuss ourselves anymore but just wait for the moderators?

 

[QuasiYuri]

I see. The thing is, the text is worded in a way that implies that reaching the Throne in itself allows you to gain "some kind of special power/ability" that can't be really called 'superpower'. Just look at the statement below:

It isn't anything difficult to understand the reason behind my deduction. There was no reason to explicitly mention that 'only because Person A has reached Point X that they're able to use something that is not considered a regular power', if it's not something particularly different from what the power 'they' had earlier.

I understand the reasonning, I'm just saying that it isn't the case. The second part of the quote explains what it means

単に宇宙の物理現象ならば何でも出来るということであり、世界法則を歪める異能とはまったく逆の部類と言える。

(Not being a superpower) means that it is just conjuring physical phenomenons ---> which is the opposite of the "superpower" that distort laws

About the dimension thing with the 'same terminology', given the fact that Yakou's power is to manifest the natural phenomenon of the universe, him using the higher dimensions of the physical world even after gaining Throne doesn't really contradict anything, does it? It would only mean that the physical dimensions he manifests are structured by his 1-A power (assuming his Tier remains 1-A, of course).

Yakou can't change the nature of things, your own quote explains it. For example, if I summon a water gun with his power, it'll still stay a water gun.

I'd have thought the same if not for the fact that "even" was used to emphasize the contradiction. Using even in such a sentence implies the possibility of multiple contradictions.

For example, 'I can even lift a Bus' would not mean that the speaker can only lift a Bus. It simply means that Bus is one of the things that they are capable of lifting.

Taking it from another point of view, it wouldn't mean that the speaker can lift everything. I was more saying it that way.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I said the higher dimension and higher dimensional were used allegorically, not the interaction between Soujirou and Akuro was allegorical

In any case, I think I have proved that the gods are completely outside of all extensions of reality, concepts, laws and dimensions too and it was proved by the fact that what happens in the singularity can in no way affect the creation, and that the gods are the most independent forms of existence and cannot be changed and It has even been said many times that the gods and the throne transcended anything and everything so they have full transcendence over all extensions of concepts

I think you just proved a R/F difference. Shinza isn't the first to have these kind of statements, but it sure is the only one to gain the 1-A favor.

In fact, the higher dimensions in shinza are addressed as part of the phenomena, and it was said that Taiji is the source of all phenomena and rules over every known phenomena. It was even said that every phenomena is determined by law of God, and even non-god characters in the series were able to create all phenomena. You can find all scans and translations in my summary

Some scans aren't translated or just 3 lines sentences tho.

The gods also clearly have Type 3 (True General Transduality)

The only reason they don't qualify for 2 is because we rate them as 1-A.

Obviously creating all reality, concepts, laws, conceptual dualities, higher dimensions, existing outside of them and transcending them regardless of events this is not just a degree of reality/fiction transcendence

This conclusion isn't what's in the scans.

But yeah we're supposed to just wait, I just wanted to ask more precisions from Planck69 regarding the why.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Okay let's say the creation is 7D, the guy views it as a painting and he is disconnected from whatever happens to the said creation and he can't be affected by it, what's the tier?

@QuasiYuri

 

[QuasiYuri]

@QuasiYuri

I answered this. Without more precisions I wouldn't give the dude 1-A, he would be 1-C.