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Divine Dimensional Dance 2nd round: Shinza Gods downgrade

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[[STAFF AND INVITED KNOWLEDGEABLE MEMBERS ONLY]]​

Introduction​

Shinza exist.

I decided to revise it.

This is the 2nd round of first CRT of the series of revisions to come.

Shinza Gods are 1-A.

I think they shouldn't.

Here's why.

Note: Besides the ones we already had, all of the translations you'll see here are provided by either @Qliphoth_Bacikal in the official translation thread or in private and by @TISSG7Redgrave in this same thread. Seriously, it was a huge number of scenes overall, translators are way too undervalued. Big thanks to them.

1-A current reasons​


There are basically two main arguements for Taikyoku to be 1-A to begin with:

Taiji is the root of all things. "Physics" are mere Laws. Taiji is more than just random Laws, since if one became Taiji, all of creation would be affected by it. Because of this and the world showing higher dimensions, Taiji is 1-A.​

Quoting the post itself:

Their laws being "unlimited expansion/overwrite" applies to simply any-D structures. Taikyoku is a force that allows users to paint over all there is or at least exist above and manipulate all existence, it doesn't matter how many "layers" are piled up. This is essentially showcased by Soujirou's attempt to slash Akuro and Yakou's attempt to block Ootake's attack. Taikyoku is something else."

While I'll answer the later part below, let's see what the thing about Taiji being more than "random Laws" and suchlike is. The original post had lots of discord links attached, but I'm lazy so I'll just link the entire scene (in case timestamp doesn't work, it's at 36:30). While the whole scene gives a bit more context, I'll just go with what was actually used in the post.

"Of course, in this World, a near infinite number of Laws exist, it doesn't mean that each one of those can be called Taikyoku

In reality, cutlery carries a Law called "cutting", fire has a Law called "burning". In the case of the Law that exists while underwater, something like pulmonary respiration cannot happen. Such assorted Laws are mere physics.

What's important is scale, density. The denomination of the form the Law takes is, by standard, "universe", therefore, getting to become an independent World is Takyoku's definition.

It's not difficult talk at all. If the aforementioned Law that exists underwater were to change into Taikyoku, All of Creation's underwater areas would also be changed to comply.

My own Law which lets me gain total control of all things in Creation, my own Law that disconnects me from all things in Creation is Taikyoku.

This Law is called a Colour, it's decision is a man's thought. What oneself longs for, what oneself would want to become. Such prayers and desires, called Cravings, become the driving force behind the genesis of Taikyoku."


Not every laws are Taiji. They mostly are mere physical phenomenons that just "happen". Taiji in different in that it's fueled by one's desire, a desire taking precedence over the world and disconnecting yourself from it. The power of Taiji is great enough to affect All of Creation.

First thing is that, while this is all cool, it doesn't hint "a conceptual or existential level" of transcendance. In fact it doesn't even talk about a transcendance factor. All that is said is that your law would take over all of creation and be disconnected to it. Anyone with good law manipulation and a range equating that of the setting could do the exact same. Of course Gudou Gods do have the fact that they are freed from the world's law and all even more, but nothing 1-A with that; and it wasn't used for the "upgrade" anyway.

Second one is that we already have similar explanations of the same phenomenon, which is that of Be'riah. Briah/Creation Figment is, in essence, nothing but a downscaled version of your Emanation, Taiji. You have the rejection of laws, the fact that you aren't limited by physics, etc... And the Aziluth degree is basically seen as your Briah but boosted (with the Briah and Aziluth info log mentionning how Aziluth is like "your creation figment is now universal" for Hegemony).

Of course it's a simplification. Gods have abilities such as Legion that no Briah users can access. However, the basic idea of Taiji used here is the exact as the one used for Briah. The only difference is truly the range/power.

Why does it matters? Well, Shinza Gods are currently at their tier because they are supposed to meet the "Characters who can significantly affect, create and/or destroy realms or states that fully transcend infinitely-layered hierarchies and/or dimensional levels on a conceptual or existential level," criteria.

Problem here is that if it was the case, if one's emanation is conceptually above everything, it merely being downscaled wouldn't change a thing. Creation Figment still reject the entire world, even going against the laws of the actual god, albeit for a short time. Yet it wouldn't give any form of 1-A rating.

In both cases, it is a "mere rewrite" of pre-existing laws just like in the first point. Not a form of transcendance of your law, and absolutely not a 1-A one.

Throne being Chō-Jigen, which apparently refers to "Beyond-Dimensional"​

If you check the meaning, while Chō-Jigen words are litteraly "Transcend/Super/Ultra/Hyper" and "Dimensions", it merely means Transdimensional. In fact, I think I never saw Chō Jigen (超次元) be used for anything remotely similar to 1-A.

https://www.wordsense.eu/超次元/

Which just means something higher than 3-D (which is why Solaris from Sonic isn't 1-A, or part of why Tenchi Muyo was downgraded).

https://www.wordsense.eu/transdimensional

Of course, if just refuting what was said in this post was enough, it wouldn't have passed. So let's go to the actual important part of this post. You can also consider this one as optionnal (or as a mere extention of the introduction) if it helps, since it's not really the main focus.

Evidences linking to 1-B / Higher Dimensionality​

Tbh most if not all the evidences against 1-A can be summed in two word: Higher dimensions. They are a big part of why Shinza is at the tier it is, and hopefully, it is a term loved by the verse.

Gods higher dimensionnal nature​

One of the most obvious case I can think of is that of Tenma Akuro, a Hadou God (pseudo one), is litteraly stated to be higher dimensional; with his scene being the evidence of dimensions having a Reality-Fiction difference.

なのに無傷 。 まったく無傷 。 薄皮一枚切り裂けない 。 それは紫織の 拳を受け止めたときと同様で 、 頑強さと言うより別位相の物理を目に したかのようだった
"And yet, he was unharmed. Completely unharmed. Not even a thin layer of skin was torn off. It was the same as when he received Shiori's fist, and it was as if I saw another phase of physics rather than stubbornness."


喩えるなら 、 絵の中でどれだけ猛火を描写しようと 、 それが現実の 人間を燃やせるわけがないのと同じ 。
To put it in another way, no matter how raging the fire is depicted in a painting, it can't burn a real person.


立っている場所がそもそも違うという断絶感。
A sense of disconnection, that the place where we are standing isn't the same to begin with.


そして 、 絵に現実は害せなくても 、 現実が絵を破壊することは容易 に出来る 。
And even if the picture can't harm the reality, reality can easily destroy the picture.


高次元から低次元への攻撃は 、 赤子の手を捻るよりも通しやすい 。
An attack from a higher dimension to a lower dimension is easier to get through than twisting a baby's hand.


I can see an arguement like "The difference between them is just referred like Higher-Dimensional/Lower-Dimensional difference, that doesn't have to mean they are bound by dimensions" being made (can see it because someone already said this before).

The previous thread justified it as "Interestingly, the difference between Soujirou and Akuro was actually called "Phase Difference" which, despite being visibly the same, is a gap much greater in scale compared to Dimensional Difference. This could also be simplified as "Taikyoku vs Non-Taikyoku difference".

Which could make sense, if you ignored the context. First thing Soujiro mentions about Akuto is how he has seen "another phase of physics rather than stubbornness", which clearly implies the charecter in question being higher dimensional, with it still being within physics, unlike what was argued in the thread which made them keep their rating.

There's also the fact that "phase" (位相) was actually used for the world or Yakou's dimensionnal dislocation/fault, hinting to the fact that it IS meant to indicate higher dimensionnal difference and making the idea of it being something else flat out wrong.

空間すら焼き消すというのなら、彼はその空間そのものに次元の断層を生み出した。
Even if it were to be burnt out, he created a dimensional dislocation in the space itself.

位相を三つは焼き尽くすも、展開された相は七。総てを滅却することは出来ず寸前にて停止する。
Of the seven that were developed, three of the phases were burnt to nothing. It could not destroy them all and stopped just in front of him.


The following quote describing the difference between Higher and Lower dimension to explain what was happening there just further proves it.

Then you have others things pointing toward the higher dimensionnal nature.

Soujirou's Distortion​

And the first of these is Soujiro's Unknown Distortion (which can even cut Tenmas) being stated to be Higher-Dimensional:

基本的な斬撃という水準を遥か超越した一閃。単純な威力や規模という意味ではなく、切断するという面においてより高次元の概念を帯一びているかのようだった。
A slash that goes far beyond the basic level of slashing. It was not simply in term of power and scales, but was more like a higher dimensionnal concept of cutting.


感じる波動は、純粋にただ斬るという一念のみ。
The only thing I feel is pure slashing.


あれは効く、絶対に断つ。詳しく説明はできそうもないが、この剣載はそういうものだと確信した。相手が天魔であろうと関係なく、両断する未来を幻視して、
It'll works, I will definitely cut it. I don't think I can explain it in detail, but I am convinced that this is the case. Imagine a future that cuts off, regardless of whether the opponent is a Tenma,"


If someone doubts the translations, Soujiro's page says roughly the same thing for these scans

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Soujirou_Mibu ("Unknown Distortion" part)

So in addition to Akuro being considered higher dimensional, a higher dimensionnal slash is considered to be able to harm even the Tenmas.

And since we talked about offense, let's talk about defense now.

Madara's dimensionnal barriers​

To go further, Yakou was actually able to block attacks from not only one but overall 3 Tenmas (Morei, Sukuna, Ootake. There's a typo for the last one on his profile btw) with his dimensionnal fault/dislocation/call it how you want. It is something we even acknowledge on his profile
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yakou_Madara

And yes, in all the cases they "had their Taiji on"/was when they were actually using their Law, as you'll see in the scenes.

Morei's flames/Law instance

節操無しが。恥知らずめ。おまえに矜持はないというのか──
Honorless. Shameless. They had no pride in themselves--

ゆえに今直ぐ討たんと旋回する母禮に対し、夜行は牽制の術を放ちながらため息をついた。
Thus Yakou sighed while releasing a restraining technique against Morei (母禮), who turned around immediately.

変わらない不遜な笑みと、視線だけで焼却する魔の眼光が交差する。
That unchanging arrogant smile intersected with the demonic eyes that can incinerate in their line of sight.

「相も変わらずつれないな。いったい誰と戦っている?」
"This has not changed. Who are you fighting?"

「御身の相手は、この私だぞ母禮殿」
"Your opponent is me, Morei-dono."

「どけいッ!」
"Out of my way!!"

大喝と共に、雷と炎の剣が眼前にある物すべてを薙ぎ払っていく。
With a thunderous roar, the swords of lightning and fire reaped everything in her sight.

宙にある大気、僅かな塵芥、更には空間そのものさえも消滅してのけるほどの業火。
The atmosphere in the air, small amounts of dust, even space itself were being extinguished.

以前夜行が相対した時に勝負を決した攻撃に、勝るとも劣らないその連撃は――
The continuous attack was no less than the attack that decided the match against Yakou previously--

されど、もはや届かない。
But it no longer came.

空間すら焼き消すというのなら、彼はその空間そのものに次元の断層を生み出した。
Even if it were to be burnt out, he created a dimensional dislocation in the space itself.

位相を三つは焼き尽くすも、展開された相は七。総てを滅却することは出来ず寸前にて停止する。
Of the seven that were developed, three of the phases were burnt to nothing. It could not destroy them all and stopped just in front of him.

「――──」
"---"

驚愕は止められたことではなかった。これらの背を押すアレの存在、それをいま確信したから….
Her astonishment did not stop there. She was certain that there was something behind them.

「一度見せながら殺し損ねたのは失敗だったな。御身らの法、すでに私には読めている」
"It was a mistake to not kill me after showing it once. Your Law (法) has already been read by me."



Sukuna + Ootake instance


両面の鬼が大地を揺るがし、三つ首の虎が死の息を吐く。
The two-sided Oni shook the earth, and the three-headed tiger let out a breath of death.


収束する波動に天地鳴動が引き起こされた。
The converging surge caused heaven and earth to shake.

攻撃の予備動作に生じる圧力、それのみで兵が次々と身体を潰され、ひしゃげて散る。
The pressure created by the preliminary movements of the attack was enough to crush the bodies of the soldiers one after another, causing them to crumble and scatter.

血の花が咲き乱れる中、随神相が見下ろす先は豆粒の如き二人の男。
In the midst of blooming blood, the Kamunagara (随神相) stared at the two men who looked like peas in a pod.

宿儺は四つの銃口でそれを狙い──
大獄は口蓋から暗い破滅の光を凝縮し──
Sukuna (宿儺) aimed their four muzzles at them--
Ootake (大獄) condenses the dark light of destruction from his palate--

遥か上空から見下ろした試験は傲慢の極みだろうか。否、これこそ鬼神。
Was this the arrogance of those who look down from above as a test? No, this was the Kishin (鬼神).

人の都合を欠片の解さず路傍の蟻よと踏み砕く、天空の頂きに腰掛ける者の特権なのだ。
This was the privilege of those who atop the heavens, they who do not care of the conveniences of others, crushing them like ants on a roadside.

巻き添えに弱卒の屍を撒き散らしながら迫る破壊光。
The light of destruction approached while scattering the corpse of weak soldiers in the way.

小国ならば滅亡必至の烈しき負の閃光を前に──
In the face of this negative flash of light, a small country would inevitably face extinction--

「笑止千万──侮りすぎだ」
"So preposterous--you underestimate us."

躱す必要一切無しと、応えたのは摩多羅夜行。
It was Yakou Madara who had responded without hesitation.

雅にかざした掌にて具現したのは時空の暇いとまによる障壁。
What was embodied in the palm of his hand that was held gracefully was a barrier of space-time.

随神相の一撃さえ、そよ風の如しと防ぎきった。
Even the blow of the Kamunagara can be repelled as if it were like a gentle breeze.



And a little Ootake one (although in this case it was also because of them having the same Colour so it's not as good of a feat as the two previous. Take it as a bonus).

かつて用いた次元断層による防御は、同種の波動により大獄の破滅を相殺した。
The defense of the dimensional dislocation (次元断層) used before offset the destruction of Ootake (大獄) with the same kind of surge (波動).


So we have dimensionnal fault/barrier/dislocation actually blocking Gods attacks, which support the idea of higher dimensionality for Gods in general and them being around something like 1-B, in opposition to what they currently are.

Miscellaneous stuff​

Now there's others things supporting this, but small enough to all be in the same category.

-Continuing on Madara, there's the fact that you can't understand Taiji without reaching it, because you are faced with a geometric space that only those with divinity can understand which is even directly linked to Taiji, implying once again the Gods/Taiji relationship with dimensions (we also acknowledge it in Yakou's profile).

「行かなくては……夜行様の元に」
"I need to go...to Yakou-sama."

そう思い、一歩踏み出した途端に世界が一変した。
The world changed completely as soon as she thought of it and took the first step.

複雑に編まれた曼荼羅模様。
It changed into an intricately knitted mandala (曼荼羅) pattern.

圧倒的な、到達したもの以外の理解を拒む幾何学空間。
An overwhelming geometric space that prevents those from understanding it other than those who have reached it.

曰く太極。それは御前試合を終えた折、この視点に摘み上げられた記憶そのままの姿だった。
Taikyoku (太極), it was called. It was exactly as she recalled when she was taken from this perspective after the Gozenjiai was over.

いや、正確にはより完成度を増しているのだろう。
No, it was more precise to say that it had become more complete.

なぜなら龍水も感じている。この絵図、この曼荼羅、ここに必要なものは後一つしかないと、半ば呆然としながら直感し──
Ryuusui also felt it. This picture, this mandala, with an instinct she had while partially dazed, knew that there was one more thing she had to do--



-While it's considered outside of everything and all, the Twilight Beach is stated to be a place with frozen time (the constant everlasting, unchanging etc... stuff coming from this too), even being called "another temporal plane".

I'm mentionning this because the beach is the singularity of the world of Foreknowledge. Meaning it would go against the idea of 1-A transcendance over all concepts and be more logic with everything above (I know that you can technically be 1-A and have time under the current system, but another evidence is never a bad thing).

-Last comes from Paradise Lost, with Angels and anything related such as Sin (which we scales directly to the Throne, the Abyss it is located in and the Sefirot) being constantly stated to gain higher-dimensionnal power from it. Something we already accept since it is on their profiles (the explanations they have also are pretty neat, so you can take a look at them too). This also include Keter, realm of the Throne being called higher-dimensionnal as well as these higher dimensionnal powers being able to kill Gods in Lyle's case.
I could also include stuff like the hole to the Singularity being called a "dimensional hole" in K3 or the different levels of the Singularity being called different dimensions, but it would just be using the word again when I think that what's in the post is more than enough.

Conclusion​

Overall, I think that Shinza Gods should be downgraded to something around 1-B (either thanks to Yakou's feats or the Singularity) because of the following points:

-The idea of "Their laws being "unlimited expansion/overwrite" applies to simply any-D structures. Taikyoku is a force that allows users to paint over all there is or at least exist above and manipulate all existence, it doesn't matter how many "layers" are piled up." is law manipulation on the level on the setting, not a form of transcendance, and especially not an 1-A one.This is without considering the points below.

-The Throne being Chō Jigen (超次元) somehow meaning 1-A is wrong. It just means transdimensional, which apply to anything above the third dimension.

-Higher dimensionnal nature for the Gods

-Higher dimensionnal attack being able to hurt them

-Higher dimensionnal barrier blocking their attacks

-Godhood being linked to the comprehension of higher geometric space

-Minor evidences Singularity being called a temporal plane in Dies Irae or basically just being another higher dimension in ParaLost.

Basically, we put Shinza Gods, the Singularity and the Throne as 1-A because of being supposedly conceptually above all higher dimensions no matter how much, while in fact they are on a higher dimensionnal level themselves, and were both shown and stated to be countered or hurt by attacks of this nature.

Now let's see how it'll goes. May it not be another 7 pages war nor the 4 pages mess that happened.
Let's try to use more constructed arguments and scans while being civilised this time.
 
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In term of non-staff and all, I think the following members would be good to invite too:

-Darkmash (Did last Shinza thread)
-Birgi126 (helped me with the basis of this CRT)
-Pain_to12 (said they have some arguments to counter or something)
 
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You should probably not ping Warren, he left VBW and from what ive heard from him has no plans returning anytime soon.

I also know that Bambu wont shownup either as he refuses to take part in anything related to Shinza.
 

Antvasima

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You should probably not ping Warren, he left VBW and from what ive heard from him has no plans returning anytime soon.

I also know that Bambu wont shownup either as he refuses to take part in anything related to Shinza.
Warren still visits at times, but we are derailing.
 

TISSG7Redgrave

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Warren and QB are unlikely to come tbh.

Anyway firstly as was pointed out by Alrfy the tenma morei was after yakou awakened his tengan and ootake was broken until he obtained taiji.

Simply for mentioning having higher dimensions/geographical shapes shouldn't be what downgrades a verse when its more to describe the state the EEs are on in comparison to the tenmas (aka they don't get a single scratch thanks to time armor).

"Of course, in this World, a near infinite number of Laws exist, it doesn't mean that each one of those can be called Taikyoku



This quote is very VERY wrong because he says infinite that so this misinformation needs to bloody stop ffs.

The very fact that he mentions all laws and we know how there are higher dimensions within the cosmology thanks to PL and the sephiroth tree as well are something that exists within the series but no matter how many dimensions exist they are simply concepts and part of the lowest part of the world the multiverse. All these laws that make up the lowest floor are inferior to the singularity, throne and especially taiji. I mean we know taiji is the origin of all things shows that they are not bound by the dimensions of the multiverse since they are above it like the singularity and throne (unless u are somehow telling me that's the fucking case which is dumb even after calling the multiverse below a mere picture).

太極――陰陽道における万物の元始であり、宇宙の中心点を指す概念。彼ら御門の人間にとっては常識的な単語だが、その意味するとこは茫漠としてはっきりしない。
 陳腐に言えば究極のようなものだから、そこがどのようなものであり、知れば何が出来るようになるというのか、具体的な解がないのである。

The Taiji - the origin of all things in the Onmyoudou and the concept of the center point of the universe. It's a word that is common knowledge to the Mikado's, but its meaning is vague and unclear.
 It is a cliché to say that it is the ultimate, so there is no concrete solution as to what it is and what you can do if you know it.

You are using a time arguement very badly but I can also say the throne has no time too which moots such a thing (and don't say ren's shit is time stop because its bloody stagnation also its in DI so you cant use the argument its in KKK because the narration gave that statement).

Tldr; Just using the words dimensions to describe smth shouldn't just automatically downgrade a verse especially when the main part in which Taikyoku was stated to be the origin of all things right above which would include higher dimensions that exist within the cosmology
 
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Warren and QB are unlikely to come tbh.

Anyway firstly as was pointed out by Alrfy the tenma morei was after yakou awakened his tengan and ootake was broken until he obtained taiji.

Simply for mentioning having higher dimensions/geographical shapes shouldn't be what downgrades a verse when its more to describe the state the EEs are on in comparison to the tenmas (aka they don't get a single scratch thanks to time armor).
I explained in the last thread that Yakou saying Morei's true name and reading her law happened either in another fight or after the feat.

Ootake breaking Yakou's barrier doesn't prove Taiji inherent superiority to them, since his Kamunagara aka the manifestation of his law was blocked by the same barriers prior to the fight. It's just Ootake being strong.

Also it absolutely wasn't talking about the Time Armor, as shown in the OP. You need proof of this.
"Of course, in this World, a near infinite number of Laws exist, it doesn't mean that each one of those can be called Taikyoku
This quote is very VERY wrong because he says infinite that so this misinformation needs to bloody stop ffs.
You litteraly provided the raws for it WITH the kanji for "near".
The very fact that he mentions all laws and we know how there are higher dimensions within the cosmology thanks to PL and the sephiroth tree as well are something that exists within the series but no matter how many dimensions exist they are simply concepts and part of the lowest part of the world the multiverse. All these laws that make up the lowest floor are inferior to the singularity, throne and especially taiji. I mean we know taiji is the origin of all things shows that they are not bound by the dimensions of the multiverse since they are above it like the singularity and throne (unless u are somehow telling me that's the fucking case which is dumb even after calling the multiverse below a mere picture).
It's explanation without any scans backing it up.
太極――陰陽道における万物の元始であり、宇宙の中心点を指す概念。彼ら御門の人間にとっては常識的な単語だが、その意味するとこは茫漠としてはっきりしない。
 陳腐に言えば究極のようなものだから、そこがどのようなものであり、知れば何が出来るようになるというのか、具体的な解がないのである。

The Taiji - the origin of all things in the Onmyoudou and the concept of the center point of the universe. It's a word that is common knowledge to the people of the Gate, but its meaning is vague and unclear.
 It is a cliché to say that it is the ultimate, so there is no concrete solution as to what it is and what you can do if you know it.
It's just a creation feat for the current iteration of the world. Nothing about it gives 1-A
You are using a time arguement very badly but I can also say the throne has no time too which moots such a thing (and don't say ren's shit is time stop because its bloody stagnation also its in DI so you cant use the argument its in KKK because the narration gave that statement).
Just saying I use it badly without more argument doesn't help. Also the Throne isn't the Singularity.
Tldr; Just using the words dimensions to describe smth shouldn't just automatically downgrade a verse especially when the main part in which Taikyoku was stated to be the origin of all things right above which would include higher dimensions that exist within the cosmology
Being the origin of thing isn't enough for transcendance. And being stated and shown to be affected by higher dimensions when your justification is that it CAN'T happen is more than enough to get a downgrade.
 
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Btw it would be better to not just say "based on what is said in the last thread..." since this thread is made to restart the whole thing.

So that's why I'll repost the japanese text for the "it says infinite not near" despite this being supposed to be solved already.

無論、世に法則といったものは無限に近く存在するし、それら一つ一つが太極というわけではない。

And as you can see, 近く is here. Not that it matters much.
 
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Simply for mentioning having higher dimensions/geographical shapes shouldn't be what downgrades a verse when its more to describe the state the EEs are on in comparison to the tenmas (aka they don't get a single scratch thanks to time armor).
Again, the post explains why this doesn’t just refer to how Tenma’s are compared to EE and is literak about the higher dimensional statement. Not to say that is not the only higher-d statement there.
And describing beings who are given 1-A tier because they will be above any extansions of higher dimensions as higher dimensional directly counters the main reasoning behind them being 1-A.
"Of course, in this World, a near infinite number of Laws exist, it doesn't mean that each one of those can be called Taikyoku
Yuri already explained how kanji says “near infinite” but even ignoring that, this point has no relevance whatsoever to Gods being 1-A or not, it is just nitpicking.
but no matter how many dimensions exist they are simply concepts and part of the lowest part of the world the multiverse.
You just say it to be such, no quote actuallu proves this.
but I can also say the throne has no time too which moots such a thing
and contradictions to that can also be presented, so go on, even if you say that it can be countered.
 
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There's also some problems with Redgrave translation. Like translating 御門 to "people of the Gate" despite it being Ryuusui's family name for example (and even if you put it on the fact that the translation was made too litteraly, you would get something more like "honorable gate").

I don't want to doubt Redgrave translation, but 2 wrong in 2 sentences isn't really great.
 
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TISSG7Redgrave

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using her true name

makes it even worse for the tenmas you know...because theirs laws are WEAKENED from loser mold ffs (for those who don't know saying true name of tenmas = bad because ren lost to him).

Jezuz this is a reason they are called Morei and Akuro instead of using their real names.

You keep insisting on that when the contexts was given already refusing to even look at the fact he blocked it only via other factors otherwise it didn't save him from getting bamboozled by fucking ootake's fists only working when Yakou awakened as Hajun's shit cleaner.

無論、世に法則といったものは無限に近く存在するし、それら一つ一つが太極というわけではない。

I'm pretty sure this translates infinite even if there is 近く存在するし which says there are many that exists. Even if we use near why the fuck are we very VERY much excluding dimensional laws SO fucking conveniently

 太極とは何ぞやと言われれば、端的に法則と言うしかない。
 すなわちその世界における絶対法であり、そうした決まり事を定めた張本人を指す。

It evens says that it is the absolute law of the world even.

It is the apex of the fucking cosmology literally telling us that everything within the multiverse is just a picture that cannot harm reality for a reason. Remember the high 1-A downgrade where even the singularity is above the "picture"?????? That's at least above the layers of dimensions that exist in the fucking multiverse so are we doing to even ignore DI's statements?

Being the origin of thing isn't enough for transcendance. And being stated and shown to be affected by higher dimensions when your justification is that it CAN'T happen is more than enough to get a downgrade.
This headcanon is pretty bad in general. Like you HAVE to ignore everything stated about taiji in general, the mechanics on it and how it is capable of controlling all things in creation even as a colorless type. Literally even if you don't have an explicit statement of it being beyond dimensions I'm bloody sure we can piece this together when the cosmology has higher dimensions but is considered part of the universe of the setting and only as part of the painting.
and contradictions to that can also be presented, so go on, even if you say that it can be countered.
What the fuck are you on? The throne has no time so where the fuck are you getting it HAS time?????? Pls if anyone uses ren's shit i swear no one read his note.

Again, the post explains why this doesn’t just refer to how Tenma’s are compared to EE and is literak about the higher dimensional statement. Not to say that is not the only higher-d statement there.
And describing beings who are given 1-A tier because they will be above any extansions of higher dimensions as higher dimensional directly counters the main reasoning behind them being 1-A.
Again what's wrong with saying they are higher D when its again to fucking explain how weak the EE are like for fuck sake Mibu can't even hurt them for shit until taiji happened. If this is all it takes to downgrade 1-As then we should downgrade everyone that HAS a higher D statement because clearly they are still bound by dimensions.

Edit: Yeah i forgot to cross check names so fuck me.

And christ I'm still having uni
 
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using her true name
makes it even worse for the tenmas you know...because theirs laws are WEAKENED from loser mold ffs (for those who don't know saying true name of tenmas = bad because ren lost to him).
My point is that he only said her true name after, not when he used his barriers.
You keep insisting on that when the contexts was given already refusing to even look at the fact he blocked it only via other factors otherwise it didn't save him from getting bamboozled by fucking ootake's fists only working when Yakou awakened as Hajun's shit cleaner.
Out of 4 uses his barriers got destroyed one time. Also you didn't bring any proof of what you are saying. It's not because you are saying "bamboozled by fucking ootake's fist" that it somehow make an argument w/o proof better.

無論、世に法則といったものは無限に近く存在するし、それら一つ一つが太極というわけではない。

I'm pretty sure this translates infinite even if there is 近く存在するし which says there are many that exists. Even if we use near why the fuck are we very VERY much excluding dimensional laws SO fucking conveniently

 太極とは何ぞやと言われれば、端的に法則と言うしかない。
 すなわちその世界における絶対法であり、そうした決まり事を定めた張本人を指す。

It evens says that it is the absolute law of the world even.
It's not anywhere enough for 1-A transcendance. And I already explained how it was referring to the fact that laws are rewritten. The entire first part of the OP already answer this.
Also there's the fact that infinite is hyperbolic af + if we accepted this as enough a lot of dudes like Arceus would be 1-A.
It is the apex of the fucking cosmology literally telling us that everything within the multiverse is just a picture that cannot harm reality for a reason. Remember the high 1-A downgrade where even the singularity is above the "picture"?????? That's at least above the layers of dimensions that exist in the fucking multiverse so are we doing to even ignore DI's statements?
I'm not ignoring any statements. I just calmly explain things with proof. Something you aren't doing in this part.
This headcanon is pretty bad in general. Like you HAVE to ignore everything stated about taiji in general, the mechanics on it and how it is capable of controlling all things in creation even as a colorless type. Literally even if you don't have an explicit statement of it being beyond dimensions I'm bloody sure we can piece this together when the cosmology has higher dimensions but is considered part of the universe of the setting and only as part of the painting.
Calling it a headcanon without proofs? Not good.
However I could call what you are saying an headcanon, since it goes against proof I presented + I already explained this once again.
What the fuck are you on? The throne has no time so where the fuck are you getting it HAS time?????? Pls if anyone uses ren's shit i swear no one read his note.
Nobody talked about Ren, also chill out.
Again what's wrong with saying they are higher D when its again to fucking explain how weak the EE are like for fuck sake Mibu can't even hurt them for shit until taiji happened. If this is all it takes to downgrade 1-As then we should downgrade everyone that HAS a higher D statement because clearly they are still bound by dimensions.
... Did you even read the OP? Mibu's Distorsion is litteraly said to be able to cut Tenmas.
Also we don't give Beyonder 1-A because dude is stated to be InfinitD among others thing; Shinza isn't getting a special treatment.
 
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Also please, don't make me repeat the fact that we're supposed to keep being chill, civilised and pretty much everything else I said in the last thread.
If you can't do that, Idk, take a breath? Do something else, chill a bit, and come back when you think you can provide scans with constructed arguments while staying cool.
 
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What the fuck are you on? The throne has no time so where the fuck are you getting it HAS time??????
Satanael literally killed Muzan with time manipulation, no one is talking about Ren here.
Again what's wrong with saying they are higher D when its again to fucking explain how weak the EE are
More like they are to explain nature of Tenma’s and why they are so strong, you keep insisting on the idea that it is just to show EE is weak so it isn’t literal which is just your headcanon.
And again, there are other examples of Higher-Dimensionality in the thread.
If this is all it takes to downgrade 1-As then we should downgrade everyone that HAS a higher D statement because clearly they are still bound by dimensions.
We most likely should if we aren’t already, but that aside why are you acting like that is only thing mentioned in the thread? Thread gives several reasons for that.
 

Sera_EX

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I'm still unsure if I should be involved here, especially when this verse and relevant material (like translations and such) will just remind me of a certain someone.

This unfortunately came to be at the wrong time for me as well as Yumiko, but this wiki nor this verse revolves around me. I will not stonewall or gatekeep here.

Regardless of what happens here, if its genuinely agreed upon I will accept it whether I like it or not. Besides, it may not matter in the end for me, anyway.
 
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I'm still unsure if I should be involved here, especially when this verse and relevant material (like translations and such) will just remind me of a certain someone.

This unfortunately came to be at the wrong time for me as well as Yumiko, but this wiki nor this verse revolves around me. I will not stonewall or gatekeep here.

Regardless of what happens here, if its genuinely agreed upon I will accept it whether I like it or not. Besides, it may not matter in the end for me, anyway.
Yumiko? Sorry for this either way.
 
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You litteraly provided the raws for it WITH the kanji for "near
This is taken from dies irae (OG English version), I would have posted the scans but I dont know how to post an image here(would be nice if anyone can show me how)
Anyway here is what is said in the scan

"The serpent had been driven mad by eternity, all it could find beyond the infinite concept constituting the knowledge and wisdom of the universe was a dead end of utter and complete folly"
 
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This is taken from dies irae (OG English version), I would have posted the scans but I dont know how to post an image here(would be nice if anyone can show me how)
Anyway here is what is said in the scan

"The serpent had been driven mad by eternity, all it could find beyond the infinite concept constituting the knowledge and wisdom of the universe was a dead end of utter and complete folly"
I know what scan you are talking about, but it doesn’t change Madara’s statement saying “Near-infinite”, and considering that Reinhard ve Mercirius fight had some unreliable narration (Like city level azitulth Reinhard) I would say Yakou’s statement is more true here.
 
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This is taken from dies irae (OG English version), I would have posted the scans but I dont know how to post an image here(would be nice if anyone can show me how)
Anyway here is what is said in the scan

"The serpent had been driven mad by eternity, all it could find beyond the infinite concept constituting the knowledge and wisdom of the universe was a dead end of utter and complete folly"
I know about this one yeah.
Although like I said "infinite" is pretty hyperbolic.
Especially when this exact same screen uses hyperbole like "eternity" for something which sure isn't eternal.

Note that it matters much regardless, since having an infinite or near infinite statement isn't gonna be the decisive factor.
 
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Also to post a picture you click on the symbol between the smiley and the link or do Ctrl+P, then you put the picture's link in what appears, and everything works just fine normally.
 
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I know what scan you are talking about, but it doesn’t change Madara’s statement saying “Near-infinite”, and considering that Reinhard ve Mercirius fight had some unreliable narration (Like city level azitulth Reinhard) I would say Yakou’s statement is more true here.
Never said it changed madara's statement, just pointing it out

There was no such thing as city level Reinhard in dies irae (when Schreiber nuked Berlin casually at the beginning), hope you are not talking about when he closed off the city from the rest of creation??
 
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Never said it changed madara's statement, just pointing it out

There was no such thing as city level Reinhard in dies irae (when Schreiber nuked Berlin casually at the beginning), hope you are not talking about when he closed off the city from the rest of creation??
He just means that a lot of statement during the fight were not litteral, which include stuff like saying that some attacks were strong enough to destroy a city despite already reaching Aziluth.
 
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I know about this one yeah.
Although like I said "infinite" is pretty hyperbolic.
Especially when this exact same screen uses hyperbole like "eternity" for something which sure isn't eternal.

Note that it matters much regardless, since having an infinite or near infinite statement isn't gonna be the decisive factor.
Yes it actually doesnt matter
I think the eternity was from mercurius having reset the multiverse so many times he lost count

Okay so I am still gathering my argument, I wil be honest I have not read PL, so I might ignore your points there since I don't really know what happened there just basic knowledge.

But I will try to answer some and also present my reasons for a 1-A structure
 
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Yes it actually doesnt matter
I think the eternity was from mercurius having reset the multiverse so many times he lost count

Okay so I am still gathering my argument, I wil be honest I have not read PL, so I might ignore your points there since I don't really know what happened there just basic knowledge.
Eternity was referring to the resets driving him mad yup.

PL is more of a minor supporting part, so no worries.
 
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There was no such thing as city level Reinhard in dies irae (when Schreiber nuked Berlin casually at the beginning), hope you are not talking about when he closed off the city from the rest of creation??
I am not saying Reinhard is city level at any point, I am just saying that in his fight with Mercurius there was such statement which makes the narration in that fight less reliable
Here is the scan.
 

TISSG7Redgrave

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Killed muzan with time paradox

Um its more like he paradoxed himself to erase the original sin and open the gates of heaven iirc

More like they are to explain nature of Tenma’s and why they are so strong, you keep insisting on the idea that it is just to show EE is weak so it isn’t literal which is just your headcanon.
And again, there are other examples of Higher-Dimensionality in the thread.
You DO know time armor is a thing RIGHT????? And all you are doing is saying higher dimensional wording = must be confined by dimensions when taiji is NOT and while its not explicit one should be able to put two and two together....

... Did you even read the OP? Mibu's Distorsion is litteraly said to be able to cut Tenmas.
Cut...the tenmas...I need to jump off a volcano i swear. Because firstly he tried to hit akuro and that didn't work and even if he could it was likely a tumor boost/Kikei boost.
Out of 4 uses his barriers got destroyed one time. Also you didn't bring any proof of what you are saying. It's not because you are saying "bamboozled by fucking ootake's fist" that it somehow make an argument w/o proof better.
You forgot sleepy gave how the 3rd time he used it? I guess short-term memory loss is a thing too.

吐菩加身依美多女――祓い給え清め給え――寒言神尊利根陀見!」
 横殴りに訪れた一撃を阻むのは、二十四にも及ぶ次元断層。衝撃を相転移する絶対障壁。それが大獄と夜行の間に顕現する。
 過剰と言うしかない対処だった。つい先ほど、随神相の一撃を防いだときさえこの十分の一も練っていない。
 悲鳴にも似た高速真言。最硬度の防咒を施しながら、なおも瞬間移動まで使いながら後退するその挙動。摩多羅夜行ともあろう者が、臆病風に吹かれたのかと嘲笑されても仕方がない。事実、彼もどうしてそこまでしたのか分からない。
 だが、それはこの上もなく正当な対処であり、同時にどうしようもなく意味のない行動だった。
「無駄だ」
 その程度、薄紙ほどの用も成さぬと。山脈を消し飛ばすほどの熱量にも耐えるだろう壁の一枚一枚が、鋼の拳に触れるたび、いとも容易く粉砕される。
 貫通する黒い鉄槌、有象無象の区別なく、ただ在るならば死に絶えさせると直進し、防ぐだけの暇はない。
 ゆえに、そして、成す術もなく──
「教育してやろう。死後を識れ」
 無慈悲な響きと共に、致死の一撃が夜行の心臓へ落下した。
「おお……」
 刹那、生命を砕かれ砂と成る。
 肉片ではなく世界に敷き詰められた砂塵へと。死人の末路へ成り果てて、ここを満たす死の一つへと堕ちていく。
 両腕両脚が乾き砕かれ砂と散った。胸部は衝撃ですでに消失。そこを起点に頭部まで深いひびが走っている。
 後は自然に落下して、そのまま砂となっていくだけ。

tldr; Yakou used his barrier and instantly got murdered by ootake literally dying only to become hajun's hunting dog and gaining the color of his taiji.

It's not anywhere enough for 1-A transcendance. And I already explained how it was referring to the fact that laws are rewritten. The entire first part of the OP already answer this.
Also there's the fact that infinite is hyperbolic af + if we accepted this as enough a lot of dudes like Arceus would be 1-A.
Yeah because its taiji...it overwrites shit with their own color...its...what hadous do??? Like srsly?

Honestly talking about which is ok narration wise and which isn't just makes it look like no one should use it.

This completely hinges on the premise taiji is somehow still tied to dimensions because of all these statements that are more to explain the standing of certain things but like...the multiverse is literally filled with all the concepts that exist even dimensions of the cosmology yet everything like the throne, singularity and taiji are above it unless you are tell me they are also bound by it.
 
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You DO know time armor is a thing RIGHT????? And all you are doing is saying higher dimensional wording = must be confined by dimensions when taiji is NOT and while its not explicit one should be able to put two and two together....
Except that this isn't about time armor.
Saying it isn't despite blatant proof of the opposite doesn't help. The fact that you nearly say that it is a personnal interpretation of yours make it even more doubtful.
Cut...the tenmas...I need to jump off a volcano i swear. Because firstly he tried to hit akuro and that didn't work and even if he could it was likely a tumor boost/Kikei boost.
Or you need to read the OP. Also it's something we are acknowledging since a long time anyway.
The fact that you are guessing things doesn't help either.
You have to prove them.
You forgot sleepy gave how the 3rd time he used it? I guess short-term memory loss is a thing too.

吐菩加身依美多女――祓い給え清め給え――寒言神尊利根陀見!」
 横殴りに訪れた一撃を阻むのは、二十四にも及ぶ次元断層。衝撃を相転移する絶対障壁。それが大獄と夜行の間に顕現する。
 過剰と言うしかない対処だった。つい先ほど、随神相の一撃を防いだときさえこの十分の一も練っていない。
 悲鳴にも似た高速真言。最硬度の防咒を施しながら、なおも瞬間移動まで使いながら後退するその挙動。摩多羅夜行ともあろう者が、臆病風に吹かれたのかと嘲笑されても仕方がない。事実、彼もどうしてそこまでしたのか分からない。
 だが、それはこの上もなく正当な対処であり、同時にどうしようもなく意味のない行動だった。
「無駄だ」
 その程度、薄紙ほどの用も成さぬと。山脈を消し飛ばすほどの熱量にも耐えるだろう壁の一枚一枚が、鋼の拳に触れるたび、いとも容易く粉砕される。
 貫通する黒い鉄槌、有象無象の区別なく、ただ在るならば死に絶えさせると直進し、防ぐだけの暇はない。
 ゆえに、そして、成す術もなく──
「教育してやろう。死後を識れ」
 無慈悲な響きと共に、致死の一撃が夜行の心臓へ落下した。
「おお……」
 刹那、生命を砕かれ砂と成る。
 肉片ではなく世界に敷き詰められた砂塵へと。死人の末路へ成り果てて、ここを満たす死の一つへと堕ちていく。
 両腕両脚が乾き砕かれ砂と散った。胸部は衝撃ですでに消失。そこを起点に頭部まで深いひびが走っている。
 後は自然に落下して、そのまま砂となっていくだけ。

tldr; Yakou used his barrier and instantly got murdered by ootake literally dying only to become hajun's hunting dog and gaining the color of his taiji.
Again, you need to really chill. If you can't do that just leave.

And yeah he got murdered in ONE instance. Besides the 4th one which is because of sharing the same color, it still makes 2 instances of Yakou successfully blocking a law.

So you proved that Yakou's barriers aren't an absolute defense which beat everything in the world. Does it go against my point? Sure not.

eah because its taiji...it overwrites shit with their own color...its...what hadous do??? Like srsly?
Honestly talking about which is ok narration wise and which isn't just makes it look like no one should use it.

This completely hinges on the premise taiji is somehow still tied to dimensions because of all these statements that are more to explain the standing of certain things but like...the multiverse is literally filled with all the concepts that exist even dimensions of the cosmology yet everything like the throne, singularity and taiji are above it unless you are tell me they are also bound by it.
It's very simple.

There's proof that it isn't above the concept of dimensions and especially not to an 1-A scale, which you litteraly answer by "c'mon it's obvious even if it's not said".

Litteraly no verse ever got 1-A based on this. Is Arceus 1-A for creating every concept in Pokemon, including the concept of space (which is even said to be that of spatial dimensions too)? Sure not. Shinza isn't a magic exception.

Also we litteraly restarted the thread so that: 1) We can debate calmly like civilised person 2) With scans and good proof that everyone can understand 3) With structured arguments.

So all the things like "it's fucking wrong!" "im gonna jump from a volcano", "short term memory loss lol" and suchlike need to stop. We could be two playing this game, and it wouldn't help anything. If you can't stop this, then what need to be stopped is your involvement.

I'm nearly surprised to see that a staff thread made for these reasons let such behavior continue without a care. Like, what was the point of restarting one if we let the same things repeat themselves?
 
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Um its more like he paradoxed himself to erase the original sin and open the gates of heaven iirc
This is not how Dies Irae Pantheon Prolouge explains it, it says that Satanael used Time Manipulation which created a parallel universe to kill Muzan because he couldn't win fairly:
一つは、無斯を排非除する際に明星が時間逆行という業を使ったこと。

One thing is that Morning Star used time retrograde to eliminate Muzan.

あれによって時間軸の操作が肯定され、そこに繋がる形で可能性世界というものが生まれてしまった。

This affirmed the operation of the time axis, and the possibility world was born in the form connected to it.
PS: I used online translators for this part so if someone who knows Japanese can point this out as incorrect I can concede on it.
You DO know time armor is a thing RIGHT?????
Except Time Armor is not related to this part at all?? This part explains Tenma Psychology.
And all you are doing is saying higher dimensional wording = must be confined by dimensions when taiji is NOT and while its not explicit one should be able to put two and two together....
You fail to prove anything you said here
Cut...the tenmas...I need to jump off a volcano i swear. Because firstly he tried to hit akuro and that didn't work and even if he could it was likely a tumor boost/Kikei boost.
It was his distortion that was stated to be able to cut Tenma's, and this is even pointed by the character profile, at the Unknown Distortion part.
.the multiverse is literally filled with all the concepts that exist even dimensions of the cosmology yet everything like the throne, singularity and taiji are above it unless you are tell me they are also bound by it.
Not only just "being above concept of dimensions" isn't accepted as 1-A by itself, there are indeed proof that they are bound by dimensions which you never properly countered.
 

SleepyTBubble

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Satanael literally killed Muzan with time manipulation, no one is talking about Ren here.

:mjlol:

Did you like...are you up to date? Muzan literally gave the Throne to Salt and didn't bother fighting back

furthermore the time manipulation was done to affect SALT HIMSELF not Muzan
 
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:mjlol:

Did you like...are you up to date? Muzan literally gave the Throne to Salt and didn't bother fighting back

furthermore the time manipulation was done to affect SALT HIMSELF not Muzan
Muzan not trying to fight back doesn't somehow lower his stats to below 1-A, wouldn't make sense for him to be effected for time manip when he is supposed to be above all extensions of it just because he isn't fighting back
Also why would it be said that it is a time manipulation that created a parallel universe if he just used it to...affect himself?
 
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I am not saying Reinhard is city level at any point, I am just saying that in his fight with Mercurius there was such statement which makes the narration in that fight less reliable
Here is the scan.
Oh this, this was the city that was cut off from the rest of creation and boosted so the gods can fight, not an actual city.
Anyway its irrelevant anyway
 
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I'm going to stay neutral for now; but Yuri did make a very elaborate OP so far, but like to give Sleepy a chance to counter IIRC was the main opposition to the OP.
Sleepy said he wouldn't involve himself more in the last thread if I'm not mistaken.

Edit: Just saw Sleepy's comment, so I likely misunderstood I guess.
 
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Antvasima

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Also we litteraly restarted the thread so that: 1) We can debate calmly like civilised person 2) With scans and good proof that everyone can understand 3) With structured arguments.

So all the things like "it's fucking wrong!" "im gonna jump from a volcano", "short term memory loss lol" and suchlike need to stop. We could be two playing this game, and it wouldn't help anything. If you can't stop this, then what need to be stopped is your involvement.

I'm nearly surprised to see that a staff thread made for these reasons let such behavior continue without a care. Like, what was the point of restarting one if we let the same things repeat themselves?
This is correct, yes. Everybody please try to calm down and stay civil.
 

Antvasima

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I would greatly appreciate your continued help here. Everybody just need to try to be polite to each other. YuriAkuto does not mean any harm.
 
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Hello. As I have exams very soon, I might not be able to contribute for now. If I get free time later, sure, I can try. Apologies.

For now I am Neutral, I believe the defending side needs some time to sort out its quotes and any potential counter (ditto for opposing) before deciding wether this fits into the tiering system. They're those who read KKK after all.

Have a nice day everyone.
 
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We have time yeah.

Pain_to12 said that they needed some to collect scans against the downgrade, and I'm personnally going to sleep. So I'll answer things once I'll correctly wake up if more stuff happen.
 

KingPin0422

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Alright, I've heard some new arguments from people on Discord who are knowledgeable on Shinza Banshō, so here we go:

According to an explanation of the history of the cosmology, creation was initially only a single, four-dimensional universe. By the time of Mercurius' reign, however, he modified creation to be a twelve-dimensional multiverse. The world then expanded even further when Hajun took the Throne, to twenty-four dimensions.

However, all of this is still contained within creation, which from the perspective of a God, is like a canvas that can be painted over at will. This is what leads us to this analogy:
These scans talk about how what is drawn in a painting, no matter how realistic it may be, can never affect the painter. Meanwhile, the painter can easily destroy this painting if they so chose. I think we all are well aware of the fact that creation is compared to a canvas that whoever holds the Throne can paint on at will, so I hope I don't need to elaborate on that. The point is that the canvas of creation can accommodate higher dimensions without issue.

Actually, speaking of the Throne, there is one piece of text given out (without a scan, but the provider is an expert on Shinza Banshō, IIRC) which describes it as follows:
座はあらゆる高次元の極点であるため、そこから引き出した力は非常に強力。
Since the seat is the extreme point of all higher dimensions, the power drawn from it is very powerful.
With this in mind, the Throne's description as 超次元 (chō jigen) can much more easily be interpreted as meaning "beyond dimensions." It should be viewed as a supportive detail and not as a critical argument, though.

Finally, it may be of interest to note that Yakou Madara, someone whose effective Taiji value is 0 due to him lacking a color (i.e., a desire) and therefore doesn't count as a God, can create higher-dimensional barriers, while a Hadou God with as little as 1 Taiji can potentially access the Throne which, as established, sits at the limit of higher dimensions and thus would encompass them as a principle. Even if the higher dimensions in Madara's case don't count for scaling (or so I've heard), the mere fact that he can create something that's higher-dimensional within the canvas of creation supports the Gods being more than that.
 
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KingPin0422

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A correction to my previous post: Mercurius' world didn't have any higher dimensions. The 12-D thing was in reference to Muzan's multiverse, and it was also ten dimensions, not twelve. Even then, the "dimensions" aren't literal dimensions according to another Shinza Banshō expert, since they correspond to the Sephiroth of the Kabbalah, with the Throne where Muzan dwells being the Sephirah of Kether.

Also, I noticed that the above translation I gave (the one regarding the Throne) is a DeepL translation, and those are known to be inaccurate. So, to make sure that I didn't make a big mistake, I ran it through two online translators (Google Translate and Yandex), and they both said the same thing. I even broke down the sentence itself, and I noticed that it contained the kanji for "kō jigen" (高次元).

My arguments may not be enough to 100% save the 1-A rating, but it still gives a reasonable case for it, IMO.
 
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I've read up KingPin's stuff about Merc modifying the world up to 12D. Which kinda made me still wanna defend 1-A key.

In Dies Irae it is stated Marie is basically outside the Worlds concepts and by worlds concepts this means every concepts that existed on the fourth heaven.

kawncept3.jpg

Marie in this nature already has Taiji.
 
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TISSG7Redgrave

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I'm more annoyed on the misconceptions here cuz its ridiculous to many extents

Btw what kingpin mentions does exist in the throne page of atwiki which is a pretty accurate wiki on shinza and masada works in general.

Last i checked the cut the tenma statement was aimed to numahime who is the mother of all distortions so she not only didn't care, she shoved a better cut up his face (iirc even they were kikei boosted so it wasn't "natural").
It's very simple.

There's proof that it isn't above the concept of dimensions and especially not to an 1-A scale, which you litteraly answer by "c'mon it's obvious even if it's not said".

Litteraly no verse ever got 1-A based on this. Is Arceus 1-A for creating every concept in Pokemon, including the concept of space (which is even said to be that of spatial dimensions too)? Sure not. Shinza isn't a magic exception.
And there is the fact higher dimensions exist unless you are really trying to downplay it to 1-B levels because we don't have a pure number other than how worthless such things are to a taiji user, the throne and singulairty. Like again all this hinges on 2 things that saying higher D = not being above dimenions and 2 ignoring aspects of some of the plot (i mention time armor to also explain that yeah their statements say they are higher D to the EE but it doesn't mean they are bound to it
And yeah he got murdered in ONE instance. Besides the 4th one which is because of sharing the same color, it still makes 2 instances of Yakou successfully blocking a law.

So you proved that Yakou's barriers aren't an absolute defense which beat everything in the world. Does it go against my point? Sure not.
I said its because other circumstances had allowed him to block the others attacks but the moment ootake got serious he got fucked. The 4th is cuz he has taiji not so I don't get it. Alrfy had explain why it worked and without that which did happen against Yakou he got fisted.

Technically PL has higher dimensions since the angels need to be killed by higher dimensional energy (anti-angels can only interact the lower worlds via hosts)

I have to add yakou's essential value being 0 due to a lack of desire has reached the throne (he still had taiji doe).

And yes Marie has taiji due to being a gudou but with an unknown value.
 

KingPin0422

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I have to add yakou's essential value being 0 due to a lack of desire has reached the throne (he still had taiji doe).
By this, you mean that Madara was able to reach the Throne despite having an effective Taiji value of 0 (because his Taiji is colorless), right? The only way that that can make sense, as far as I can see, would be for Madara's Taiji to have matched Hajun's at that point. After all, Tenma Yato couldn't reach Hajun even after drilling through his Singularity for thousands of years.

Speaking of which, there is a quote talking about how the depth of the Singularity is defined and comparing its depth under Hajun's rule to its depth during Mercurius' reign:
「穴」の深さはその代における座の神格の強度に応じたものとなり、水銀が座を握っていた時の深さは、せいぜい常人が呼吸を止めていられる時間で到達することが出来る深さだった。

それを踏まえて、第六天波旬が座に坐している今の深さは遥かな昔から落下し続けているにも拘らず到達し得ない深度。
I don't have any exact translations, unfortunately, and I'd rather not discuss how high into 1-A the Shinza Banshō Gods are until after we've made sure that they are 1-A to begin with, but the text I just posted above should be of interest.



I edited my big post up above a few times. I hope it still makes sense. It would be wise to wait for the supporters to compile evidence for rebuttals, though, since I'm not a Shinza Banshō expert by any means. I just wanted to post relevant findings.
 

TISSG7Redgrave

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No no no Yakou only got in because he wasn't opposing Hajun's hadou. Gudous can slip in the singularity because they don't directly fight the godhead. Yato due to being a hadou MUST fight hajun's taiji while Yakou and the EE later were gudous thus they can dive in. Btw Yakou's value was only 2 anyway which is lowest known in the series.

The depth of the hole was based on the strength the god's divinity of the generation, and the depth of the hole when Mercury was holding the throne was at most the depth that a normal person could reach in the time it took to hold his breath.

Based on that, the current depth of Hajun is sitting on the throne is an unattainable depth, even though he has been falling since a long time ago.

Which is more to explain that in comparison to merc who is one of the strongest hadous that expanded the singularity, it would only take as long as a normal person holding their breath while Hajun's is so deep that its ridiculous (Yakou still reached it though).
 
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I've read up KingPin's stuff about Merc modifying the world up to 12D. Which kinda made me still wanna defend 1-A key.

In Dies Irae it is stated Marie is basically outside the Worlds concepts and by worlds concepts this means every concepts that existed on the fourth heaven.

kawncept3.jpg

Marie in this nature already has Taiji.
I hope i aint seeing anyone who is gonna say "You need infinite D and be above its concept to be 1-A"
 
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These scans talk about how what is drawn in a painting, no matter how realistic it may be, can never affect the painter. Meanwhile, the painter can easily destroy this painting if they so chose. I think we all are well aware of the fact that creation is compared to a canvas that whoever holds the Throne can paint on at will, so I hope I don't need to elaborate on that. The point is that the canvas of creation can accommodate higher dimensions without issue.
The scans also directly talks about how Tenma’s are Higher-Dimensional compared to the painting. I know what logic you are getting at, but it interperting “No matter how fire is painted, it can’t burn the real world” as “Gods will be above higher infinities in canvas, no matter how many” needs sort of reaching.
座はあらゆる高次元の極点であるため、そこから引き出した力は非常に強力。
Since the seat is the extreme point of all higher dimensions, the power drawn from it is very powerful.
This actually would just prove Throne is not 1-A since it calls it “extreme point of all higher dimensions” aka the highest point. It would still mean throne is dimensional. I also don’t think “extreme point” referd to anything more than being in top of already existing higher dimensions.
In Dies Irae it is stated Marie is basically outside the Worlds concepts and by worlds concepts this means every concepts that existed on the fourth heaven.
What exactly does this prove? If you mean to say she is above concept of dimensions because of that, that doesn’t grant 1-A on it’s own I believe and there are contradictions to that.
 
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So well I realized instead of trying to idk counter Yuri point by point, I will try and make my own explanation of the shinza banshou cosmology and hope o cover some of his point there. Please Yuri try and see cause I realized you had some misconceptions about the whole cosmology

N.B. Dont know how to post image here so I may just be copying and pasting statements directly if I can't find the said scans already on wiki

So here it goes

First taikyoku (taiji)
"Taikyoku" (in japanese, 太極) is just the romanized spelling of "Taiji" (in fact, the kanji read in KKK as Taikyoku literally mean "Taiji"). Taikyoku, simply put, is the Supreme Ultimate, the source of all of existence. In Taoist teachings, it's even the source of Yin and Yang. The concept is pretty much identical in Shinza. Taikyoku is the power of Gods in this universe. Hadou Gods, whose Taikyoku flows outwards from themselves, instead of generating an internal universe, are the source of what is perceived in Shinza as "reality". They are the sources of all phenomena, souls, and concepts.

I'm sure from what has been said and if you have read the shinza explanation page you must have come across yakou explanation of taikyoku the one about underwater......., so I will just skip and try and explain it


As Yakou tells us, Taikyoku is a Law which is absolute in regards to the World, and its nature is also enough to identificate its originator. He went further to say the laws and orders the world follows are mere physics and taikyoku is something, basically no matter what the law is the moment it become taikyoku the rest of creation follows suit(no matter the layers btw)

Now yakou made this quote also
み森羅万象から外れるという太極である。
Translation: My own Law which lets me gain total control of all things in Creation, my own Law that disconnects me from all things in Creation is Taikyoku.


Taikyoku is the basis of reality in Shinza, not just a simple power. That reality you see in each game? It's the outflow of a Hadou God's Taikyoku. Souls, space, time, concepts, physics, even emotions, Taikyoku is the source of everything. And fights between Gods is basically painting over their opponent's worlds with their own Taikyoku. And Values determine The strength of these Laws They originate.

if you even have a value of 1 Taikyoku you are already above all reality including concepts, universes, multiverses and dimensions since they all originate from the taikyoku.

Basically everything originates from the taikyoku that powers the gods and the rest of creation (including everything in it dimensions, laws or whatever) was called a picture on multiple occasions in fact emanation was said to be a painting that uses the entire creation as its canvas,
And vs wiki standards is

"However, do note that a character can qualify for this rating even if their verse does not have an infinitely-layered or equivalent cosmology, as long as it is either stated, shown or left very obvious that the character in question already bypasses the very nature of such structures altogether, in a way that simply "stacking" more of them logically would not allow one to reach their level of power / size."

Yes same way a picture or a painting can never affect reality I dont think expanding the layers of something they view as picture would even be enough to even reach their level of power.
The whole misconception comes from thinking taiji is a creation feat, no its way more than that its the source of creation like a painter is the source of its painting and the painting can't even reach the painter level of power.
I mean when soujiro tried to cut ootake the narrator said it's not cause of ootake durability but simply cause a fire depicted in a picture can never harm reality and ootake is simply disconnected from soujiro and the rest of creation.
Taikyoku gives them control of everything in creation while disconnecting them from it, (idg it will be really idk to say dimensions are not part of the said creation tbat taikyoku disconnects them from and also statements of the throne been in a beyond dimensional space e.t.c.)
I believe this is the explanation of taikyoku to the extent in which I can simplify it.

Would love to continue but I think I've rambled enough
 
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What exactly does this prove? If you mean to say she is above concept of dimensions because of that, that doesn’t grant 1-A on it’s own I believe and there are contradictions to that.
Actually it does grants the rating if you exist above and outside the concept of dimensions it does grant 1-A
 
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The contradictions presented in the thread itself? Gods still being higher-dimensional and such
It was not a contradiction it was a narration of the existence of the gods

Or because yato narrated and called himself a man, he is a man??

Lol
 
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I've read up KingPin's stuff about Merc modifying the world up to 12D. Which kinda made me still wanna defend 1-A key.

In Dies Irae it is stated Marie is basically outside the Worlds concepts and by worlds concepts this means every concepts that existed on the fourth heaven.

kawncept3.jpg

Marie in this nature already has Taiji.
Please how do I post picture scans
 
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It was not a contradiction it was a narration of the existence of the gods
Yes, and that narration said they are Higher-Dimensional, and than there is Soujiro’s Higher-D slash being able to cut them...This point is getting sort of repetetive.
 
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Just woke up, and god why good arguments come when I'm not checking.

Gonna answer a bit later.
 
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Yes, and that narration said they are Higher-Dimensional, and than there is Soujiro’s Higher-D slash being able to cut them...This point is getting sort of repetetive.
Yes exactly what I said its a narration to explain the existence of the gods compared to others.
Or how do you narrate something like that??

Or because featherine was called a higher dimensional being that means she is bound by dimensions?
The outer gods were also narrated to be of higher dimensions when they are not even bound by dimensions.

Please and please its a narration of their existence not that it means they are bound by dimensions
 
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Yes exactly what I said its a narration to explain the existence of the gods compared to others.
Or how do you narrate something like that??
Indeed. It would be stupid that Takashi Masada would call the Gods Outerversal cuz Higher D is still bounded by Dimensions
 
Yes, and that narration said they are Higher-Dimensional, and than there is Soujiro’s Higher-D slash being able to cut them...This point is getting sort of repetetive.
It's not contradict everything, their existence as higher being should be like that, and doesn't make their 1-A rating removed
 
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I shouldnt comment here because its staff only, but I need to say only 1 thing, being called Higher Dimensional shouldnt be a reason to lose their 1-A rating, in the same way that being called Higher Dimensional doesnt upgrade any tier
 
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I shouldnt comment here because its staff only, but I need to say only 1 thing, being called Higher Dimensional shouldnt be a reason to lose their 1-A rating, in the same way that being called Higher Dimensional doesnt upgrade any tier
When your entire tier is about being above any possible higher D stuff, it should be.
You wouldn't give immunity to soul manipulation to someone with a soul.

Anyway gonna answer stuff now.
 
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I know this is out of the topic but if we are downgrading shinza due to being called higher dimensional shouldnt we also downgrade umineko and other stuff?
 

Planck69

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Other works have blatant context that "higher dimensional" is just metaphorical. If they didn't then we would've a long time ago.

This is extremely off-topic anyway.
 
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I know this is out of the topic but if we are downgrading shinza due to being called higher dimensional shouldnt we also downgrade umineko and other stuff?
I dont think it works like that, since most of the time its just narration of their existence compared to a lower one so the author tend to use higher dimension from a narrative point
 
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Alright, I've heard some new arguments from people on Discord who are knowledgeable on Shinza Banshō, so here we go:

According to an explanation of the history of the cosmology, creation was initially only a single, four-dimensional universe. By the time of Mercurius' reign, however, he modified creation to be a twelve-dimensional multiverse. The world then expanded even further when Hajun took the Throne, to twenty-four dimensions.
This is true yeah (tho it's more like Pre-Throne ->first iteration ->the dimensions of ParaLost ->Idea of parallel universes ->dimensions stuff but not the same way -> fuck let's invite everyone but Hajun)
However, all of this is still contained within creation, which from the perspective of a God, is like a canvas that can be painted over at will. This is what leads us to this analogy:

These scans talk about how what is drawn in a painting, no matter how realistic it may be, can never affect the painter. Meanwhile, the painter can easily destroy this painting if they so chose. I think we all are well aware of the fact that creation is compared to a canvas that whoever holds the Throne can paint on at will, so I hope I don't need to elaborate on that. The point is that the canvas of creation can accommodate higher dimensions without issue.
Akuro's scene is about how Soujirou and Shiori attacks can't hurt him.
Also the painting analogy in others context is about painting the world with your law, and how you can't undo this once it's done. With applying your law too much time creating holes.

Also this scene accentuate a lot the fact that Gods are indeed higher dimensionnal, using the terminology to assert the fact.
Actually, speaking of the Throne, there is one piece of text given out (without a scan, but the provider is an expert on Shinza Banshō, IIRC) which describes it as follows:

With this in mind, the Throne's description as 超次元 (chō jigen) can much more easily be interpreted as meaning "beyond dimensions." It should be viewed as a supportive detail and not as a critical argument, though.
Can't find this part in K3 nor ParaLost files. Don't want to sound too doubtful, but last thread already had fake stuff so one can't be too sure.

Also there's the fact that Cho Jigen never is used that way? I mean, the word in general. Tho it's a detail like you said.
Finally, it may be of interest to note that Yakou Madara, someone whose effective Taiji value is 0 due to him lacking a color (i.e., a desire) and therefore doesn't count as a God, can create higher-dimensional barriers, while a Hadou God with as little as 1 Taiji can potentially access the Throne which, as established, sits at the limit of higher dimensions and thus would encompass them as a principle. Even if the higher dimensions in Madara's case don't count for scaling (or so I've heard), the mere fact that he can create something that's higher-dimensional within the canvas of creation supports the Gods being more than that.
The OP litteraly proves that said higher dimensional barriers are actually able to block Gods' attacks and laws. The only instance where it failed is against Ootake, who's like one of the strongest Tenma and the reincarnation of Machina, who's destructive power is pretty known.

Also there's the fact that Madara in-game profile put his abilities with his Colorless Taiji on par with the Tenmas.
 
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I'm more annoyed on the misconceptions here cuz its ridiculous to many extents

Btw what kingpin mentions does exist in the throne page of atwiki which is a pretty accurate wiki on shinza and masada works in general.

Last i checked the cut the tenma statement was aimed to numahime who is the mother of all distortions so she not only didn't care, she shoved a better cut up his face (iirc even they were kikei boosted so it wasn't "natural").
I would prefer scans for this. Also it just says that it would cut Tenmas, not absolutely destroy them.
And there is the fact higher dimensions exist unless you are really trying to downplay it to 1-B levels because we don't have a pure number other than how worthless such things are to a taiji user, the throne and singulairty. Like again all this hinges on 2 things that saying higher D = not being above dimenions and 2 ignoring aspects of some of the plot (i mention time armor to also explain that yeah their statements say they are higher D to the EE but it doesn't mean they are bound to it
Without higher dimensions I would have more of a hard time proving they aren't below 1-B.

Also the Singularity litteraly have stuff like time in it (see the Twilight Beach), proving that it isn't above all extensions of every concept in the world; this being something you didn't prove.
I said its because other circumstances had allowed him to block the others attacks but the moment ootake got serious he got fucked. The 4th is cuz he has taiji not so I don't get it. Alrfy had explain why it worked and without that which did happen against Yakou he got fisted.
And you need proof.
They explained for Morei by saying he said her true name; but his proof were: 1) Another fight 2) Later
Technically PL has higher dimensions since the angels need to be killed by higher dimensional energy (anti-angels can only interact the lower worlds via hosts)

I have to add yakou's essential value being 0 due to a lack of desire has reached the throne (he still had taiji doe).

And yes Marie has taiji due to being a gudou but with an unknown value.
All this I acknowledge.
Tho in Yakou's case it's more a real lack of value than an indicator of power, since his own profile sure doesn't put him as an absolute weakling compared to Tenmas.
 
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By this, you mean that Madara was able to reach the Throne despite having an effective Taiji value of 0 (because his Taiji is colorless), right? The only way that that can make sense, as far as I can see, would be for Madara's Taiji to have matched Hajun's at that point. After all, Tenma Yato couldn't reach Hajun even after drilling through his Singularity for thousands of years.
Actually first time is just the weird fact that he got Taiji without Craving, while it's supposed to be the opposite (you get craving first), and for Madara it was explained that his nature as Gudou played a role in it, since he wasn't considered as an actual competitor and all (also Naraka would have prevented this anyway).
 
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So well I realized instead of trying to idk counter Yuri point by point, I will try and make my own explanation of the shinza banshou cosmology and hope o cover some of his point there. Please Yuri try and see cause I realized you had some misconceptions about the whole cosmology
(I actually wrote this comment last)
You cruelly lack scans and ignore a lot of what is presented as feats. So saying I have "misconceptions" but ignoring feats blatantly going against your explanation isn't very cool.
So here it goes

First taikyoku (taiji)
"Taikyoku" (in japanese, 太極) is just the romanized spelling of "Taiji" (in fact, the kanji read in KKK as Taikyoku literally mean "Taiji"). Taikyoku, simply put, is the Supreme Ultimate, the source of all of existence. In Taoist teachings, it's even the source of Yin and Yang. The concept is pretty much identical in Shinza.
This part isn't really relevant. Not saying that it is wrong, just that you have to prove it acts that way.
Taikyoku is the power of Gods in this universe. Hadou Gods, whose Taikyoku flows outwards from themselves, instead of generating an internal universe, are the source of what is perceived in Shinza as "reality". They are the sources of all phenomena, souls, and concepts.
They are more what decides of "how the world is", but are the sources of their iteration. Not having a Throne God would lead to the end of the world tho.
I'm sure from what has been said and if you have read the shinza explanation page you must have come across yakou explanation of taikyoku the one about underwater......., so I will just skip and try and explain it
I litteraly put this one in the OP. How can you not be sure that I've read it?
As Yakou tells us, Taikyoku is a Law which is absolute in regards to the World, and its nature is also enough to identificate its originator. He went further to say the laws and orders the world follows are mere physics and taikyoku is something, basically no matter what the law is the moment it become taikyoku the rest of creation follows suit(no matter the layers btw)

Now yakou made this quote also
み森羅万象から外れるという太極である。
Translation: My own Law which lets me gain total control of all things in Creation, my own Law that disconnects me from all things in Creation is Taikyoku.
That is true yeah. Your law rewrite the rest and all. What doesn't make it mere physics is the fact that it is fueled by your Colour/Craving.
Taikyoku is the basis of reality in Shinza, not just a simple power. That reality you see in each game? It's the outflow of a Hadou God's Taikyoku. Souls, space, time, concepts, physics, even emotions, Taikyoku is the source of everything. And fights between Gods is basically painting over their opponent's worlds with their own Taikyoku. And Values determine The strength of these Laws They originate.
Pre-Throne Area directly contradict this notion. Although the rest is true for each iterations.
if you even have a value of 1 Taikyoku you are already above all reality including concepts, universes, multiverses and dimensions since they all originate from the taikyoku.
You just said that it was the origin and overwrote stuff, you didn't prove any transcendance.
Basically everything originates from the taikyoku that powers the gods and the rest of creation (including everything in it dimensions, laws or whatever) was called a picture on multiple occasions in fact emanation was said to be a painting that uses the entire creation as its canvas,
And vs wiki standards is
"However, do note that a character can qualify for this rating even if their verse does not have an infinitely-layered or equivalent cosmology, as long as it is either stated, shown or left very obvious that the character in question already bypasses the very nature of such structures altogether, in a way that simply "stacking" more of them logically would not allow one to reach their level of power / size."
The painting analogy regarding the laws was used to explain the fact that once you extend your law on the world, there's no coming back.
Yes same way a picture or a painting can never affect reality I dont think expanding the layers of something they view as picture would even be enough to even reach their level of power.
Feats says otherwise.
The whole misconception comes from thinking taiji is a creation feat, no its way more than that its the source of creation like a painter is the source of its painting and the painting can't even reach the painter level of power.

I mean when soujiro tried to cut ootake the narrator said it's not cause of ootake durability but simply cause a fire depicted in a picture can never harm reality and ootake is simply disconnected from soujiro and the rest of creation.
Soujirou didn't try to cut Ootake tho...? It was Akuro
Taikyoku gives them control of everything in creation while disconnecting them from it, (idg it will be really idk to say dimensions are not part of the said creation tbat taikyoku disconnects them from and also statements of the throne been in a beyond dimensional space e.t.c.)
I believe this is the explanation of taikyoku to the extent in which I can simplify it.
Being disconnected isn't the same as transcending on a 1-A level.
Also you seem to forgot stuff like Singularity having time, the fact that Gods were litteraly blocked by higher dimensional stuff, etc...

Overall most of it are explanations which ignore the feats presented (or do a big jump of assumption, because you only use the painter analogy which would be one layer of R/F difference), while only bringing a single sentence (which is in the OP and explained) to support it.
 
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What I'm trying to prove is Taiji is 1-A. Marie wouldnt exist outside The Worlds Concept without it anyways.
You can be outside of the world's concept while not being 1-A.
Type 4 accausal litteraly operate under a different set of laws. So does Gudou Gods.
 
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You can be outside of the world's concept while not being 1-A.
Type 4 accausal litteraly operate under a different set of laws. So does Gudou Gods.
Then what's the difference? As long as the character is outside being unbounded by the concept of dimensions that grants 1-A rating
 
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Just a little thing:

Most of what I answered isn't trying to fight feats by feats, but uses explanation as absolute truth. Mostly without scans to back it up

There's also the fact that some are really ignoring what was presented and nearly seem to do the shortcut "downgrade Shinza --> wrong".
I'm mainly talking about stuff like:

"Even if the higher dimensions in Madara's case don't count for scaling (or so I've heard), the mere fact that he can create something that's higher-dimensional within the canvas of creation supports the Gods being more than that." ----> an entire part of the OP is about the fact that said constructs are countering Gods, and it's not even adressed here

"you must have come across yakou explanation of taikyoku the one about underwater" ----> why acting like it's a possibility when it's already in the OP?

which is pretty odd in itself.
 
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Then what's the difference? As long as the character is outside being unbounded by the concept of dimensions that grants 1-A rating
You know that your scan is litteraly in the Twilight Beach?

Following your idea, time wouldn't be able to exist here because of being "outside of everything" and all.
In fact, it goes AGAINST the idea that it transcends any possible extension of all concept.
 
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You can be outside of the world's concept while not being 1-A.
Type 4 accausal litteraly operate under a different set of laws. So does Gudou Gods.
Let me quickly address this, I think you should read the accausal page again if anything Marie beach operates under this

Type 5: Causality Transcendence: Characters with this type of Acausality transcend the normal boundaries of cause and effect, existing outside of the causality of a system. Even interacting with them normally may prove virtually impossible.
 
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Let me quickly address this, I think you should read the accausal page again if anything Marie beach operates under this

Type 5: Causality Transcendence: Characters with this type of Acausality transcend the normal boundaries of cause and effect, existing outside of the causality of a system. Even interacting with them normally may prove virtually impossible.
Type 4: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others.

Marie and the Gods do operate under their own rules. I could argue this now but that's not my intention. I'm just saying that being outside the world and all never was a proof of 1-A.
 
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(I actually wrote this comment last)
You cruelly lack scans and ignore a lot of what is presented as feats. So saying I have "misconceptions" but ignoring feats blatantly going against your explanation isn't very cool.
The only feat that I think actually count is madara blocking the tenmas which I think red gave an explanation for iirc
This part isn't really relevant. Not saying that it is wrong, just that you have to prove it acts that way.
Prove its acts that way after multiple statements saying it does?
They are more what decides of "how the world is", but are the sources of their iteration. Not having a Throne God would lead to the end of the world tho.
Uhhmmm I don't think so, not having a throne god won't lead to the end of the world, more like the current world laws will remain in plac
That is true yeah. Your law rewrite the rest and all. What doesn't make it mere physics is the fact that it is fueled by your Colour/Craving.
What does not make it mere physics is cause it is more than that not anything else
Pre-Throne Area directly contradict this notion. Although the rest is true for each iterations.
No, taikyoku>>> throne
You just said that it was the origin and overwrote stuff, you didn't prove any transcendance.
Origin and disconnects?
"I am the origin of dimensionality, space and everything and I am disconnected from it while having control over it"
Does this explain enough, sorry it may feel like I am ignoring some things you said but what I can say is that I am more about the cosmology as a whole not the plot armour that happened in it
The painting analogy regarding the laws was used to explain the fact that once you extend your law on the world, there's no coming back.
Not just that, in the dies irae anime, it was explicitly stated that the whole of creation is nothing but a canvas for the gods
Soujirou didn't try to cut Ootake tho...? It was Akuro
My bad
Being disconnected isn't the same as transcending on a 1-A level.
Also you seem to forgot stuff like Singularity having time, the fact that Gods were litteraly blocked by higher dimensional stuff, etc...
Singularity time? I hope you don't mean cause it was said that they spend some certain amount of time drilling through it means it has time?
Overall most of it are explanations which ignore the feats presented (or do a big jump of assumption, because you only use the painter analogy which would be one layer of R/F difference), while only bringing a single sentence (which is in the OP and explained) to support it.
Can you give a detailed explanation of the shinza verse cosmology?
i think that should clear anything up
 
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Type 4: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others.

Marie and the Gods do operate under their own rules. I could argue this now but that's not my intention. I'm just saying that being outside the world and all never was a proof of 1-A.
Yes Marie was said to be "above"
 
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"you must have come across yakou explanation of taikyoku the one about underwater" ----> why acting like it's a possibility when it's already in the OP?
Its not odd, obviously I was referring to people without any knowledge on shinza and not you
 
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The only feat that I think actually count is madara blocking the tenmas which I think red gave an explanation for iirc
Redgrave just said "they say this" without proof. And even then the only counter he's referring to was for one instance, being More. I then explained how the counter was wrong for the scene.
Prove its acts that way after multiple statements saying it does?
What I'm saying is that using real world definition is useless.
Uhhmmm I don't think so, not having a throne god won't lead to the end of the world, more like the current world laws will remain in place.
Masada said so.

前者は理の発生源が消えたことにより、その法則のみが停滞したかたちで残存。管理型の覇道なら人の生き方一一波旬なら滅尽滅相、明星なら完全平和という特性は残るものの、源泉である覇道神がいないので新たな命の生産が起きず、緩やかに(波旬なら速攻ですが)死に絶えていき、最後は誰も残らない。輪廻や永劫回帰という死後再生優先の理ならば、そもそもそういった特性が発現せず、ただ死んだら終わりというもの。

In the former case, the source of reason has disappeared, and only its laws remain in a stagnant form. However, since the source, one that is of Hadou, is not present, the creation of new life will not occur, and the deaths will be gradual (In Hajun's case, it will accelerate), and in the end, no one will be left. If it's a theory that prioritizes rebirth after death, such as Reincarnation or Eternal Regression, then those characteristics don't manifest in the first place, and you just die and that's it.
What does not make it mere physics is cause it is more than that not anything else
Which explained in the OP.
No, taikyoku>>> throne
That's not countering what I'm saying at all. Not that it matters either way.
Origin and disconnects?
"I am the origin of dimensionality, space and everything and I am disconnected from it while having control over it"
Does this explain enough, sorry it may feel like I am ignoring some things you said but what I can say is that I am more about the cosmology as a whole not the plot armour that happened in it
There's no sentence saying this tho. It does say he is disconnected from the laws and all, then you have feats such as even the Singularity having time.

Calling it plot armour without any proof and just because it goes against your idea is is not the best don't you think?
Not just that, in the dies irae anime, it was explicitly stated that the whole of creation is nothing but a canvas for the gods
Which is a statement in the VN too. And it's used to talk about their law expanding.
Singularity time? I hope you don't mean cause it was said that they spend some certain amount of time drilling through it means it has time?
Read the OP.
Can you give a detailed explanation of the shinza verse cosmology?
i think that should clear anything up
You really just need to read the OP.
I'm explaining what part of our current explanation is wrong, you can take the rest as not being a problem unless I'm adressing it.
 
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What I'm saying is that using real world definition is useless.
Yes but it was also the same definition given in the verse, origin of all things
Masada said so.

前者は理の発生源が消えたことにより、その法則のみが停滞したかたちで残存。管理型の覇道なら人の生き方一一波旬なら滅尽滅相、明星なら完全平和という特性は残るものの、源泉である覇道神がいないので新たな命の生産が起きず、緩やかに(波旬なら速攻ですが)死に絶えていき、最後は誰も残らない。輪廻や永劫回帰という死後再生優先の理ならば、そもそもそういった特性が発現せず、ただ死んだら終わりというもの。

In the former case, the source of reason has disappeared, and only its laws remain in a stagnant form. However, since the source, one that is of Hadou, is not present, the creation of new life will not occur, and the deaths will be gradual (In Hajun's case, it will accelerate), and in the end, no one will be left. If it's a theory that prioritizes rebirth after death, such as Reincarnation or Eternal Regression, then those characteristics don't manifest in the first place, and you just die and that's it.
Oh okay
That's not countering what I'm saying at all. Not that it matters either way.
You said what I said about taikyoku contradicts the pre-throne era and I just said taikyoku predates all of existence even the throne itself
There's no sentence saying this tho. It does say he is disconnected from the laws and all, then you have feats such as even the Singularity having time.
There is a sentence, yakou statements said he has control of all things in creation while disconnected from it thats transcendence
where was the singularity shown to have time? I hope its not cause time for drilling to no avail was stated for yato?
Not that it matters anyway featherine even though high outerversal or the voyagers even though not bound by time still have time in a sense and needs certain years to reach something e.g. Marie needs 1000 years to become a creator that does not in anyway say she is bound by time.

Calling it plot armour without any proof and just because it goes against your idea is is not the best don't you think?
I'm not calling it plot armour cause it goes against my idea, I just won't cling to something while ignoring the rest of the verse cosmology
Which is a statement in the VN too. And it's used to talk about their law expanding.
Yes and that creation is just a canvas for the gods to paint
Why do you keep ignoring that?
Like you keep ignoring the fact that the gods transcend creation in a R-F manner

"The Taikyoku of Hadou is, for instance, closely resembling to the act of drawing a picture. You have the Color of your own Law, that is the condition to raise the drawing on the Canvas that is the World."


"Therefore naturally, many concepts that accompany with a picture can be applied. Then for example, under the pressure of the brush on the place where you had recoating it many times over, a hole will appear on the canvas."


Even though this scans are explanation of the singularity it still explains the fact that creation is a canvas for the gods and please dont make statements such as "feats says otherwise while neglecting everything else the verse stands on"
 
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You said what I said about taikyoku contradicts the pre-throne era and I just said taikyoku predates all of existence even the throne itself
Pre-Throne era didn't operate under any Law is the point I'm making. Or at least it didn't at the beginning.
There is a sentence, yakou statements said he has control of all things in creation while disconnected from it thats transcendence
You can control something while being disconnected, all of this without transcendance.
And even if it is, one R/F transcendance isn't enough to get 1-A. Especially when the work itself shows that there's still things in the Singularity or blatant showing like what's in the post.
Not that it matters anyway featherine even though high outerversal or the voyagers even though not bound by time still have time in a sense and needs certain years to reach something e.g. Marie needs 1000 years to become a creator that does not in anyway say she is bound by time.
It's not the same at all. Especially with a world like the Meta World which is all about how you perceive things. So it's a false equivalence and not even what I'm referring to.
I'm not calling it plot armour cause it goes against my idea, I just won't cling to something while ignoring the rest of the verse cosmology
Yet that's what you are doing.
where was the singularity shown to have time? I hope its not cause time for drilling to no avail was stated for yato?

Yes and that creation is just a canvas for the gods to paint
Why do you keep ignoring that?
Like you keep ignoring the fact that the gods transcend creation in a R-F manner
R e a d
t h e
O P

I'm not ignoring it.
And I already adressed this part, but you are ignoring the points I made in the post and more just to give a vision which sees itself as the absolute truth.
"The Taikyoku of Hadou is, for instance, closely resembling to the act of drawing a picture. You have the Color of your own Law, that is the condition to raise the drawing on the Canvas that is the World."

"Therefore naturally, many concepts that accompany with a picture can be applied. Then for example, under the pressure of the brush on the place where you had recoating it many times over, a hole will appear on the canvas."


Even though this scans are explanation of the singularity it still explains the fact that creation is a canvas for the gods and please dont make statements such as "feats says otherwise while neglecting everything else the verse stands on"
It explains how the law rewriting works and how using your law a lot will create a hole to (or inside) the Singularity. Nothing less, nothing less.

Also you are litteraly saying your personnal interpretation of something should be above what Masada himself wrote (feats and explanation alike), which is a big no-no.
You say that Gods are unbound by dimensional stuff, feats in the post shows they are. Feats are part of the cosmology on the same level as any in-verse explanation.

Also there's the fact that what you are showing is cool, but most doesn't even go against my points nor prove 1-A transcendance.

Like the only part conflicting is the big jump in conclusion aka "it means 1-A" when your evidences just aren't proving it and my own scans showing that it isn't.
So it would maybe be better to directly address my points rather than exposing what is already here and known (would also prevent meaningless questions like "u mean ren drilling?" when it's obvious that I'm talking about the evidences already in the OP).
It's just counterproductive so far.
 
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