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Diavolo vs Touma

He moved before the arrow appeared so no , and this is a Vs battle how is diavolo hiding before the match ?

U don't undestand that speed is not the issue here, I copy pasted the part that explains it , even if it's is Instant it change nothing and will not affect touma , if not touma could be teleported cause it's instant (spoilers he can't)

One of the part I quote alrsy mention croronzon exposed soul as an illusion but there should be other I will find them
 
>ouma was going to exorcise and negate Coronzon's existence with his right hand before she brought out the Eggs in his arm, so it's safe to say he can under certain circumstances.

Certain circumstances, which is more than just a bit vague.

>Literally nothing you've posted matters in the long run since Diavolo is an ambush fighter and, even on the chance that he doesn't die on Touma sensing the presence of the Stand of negating it, Touma would likely flatten his face in in close combat right after the fact by himself. Diavolo is not that good in close-combat and even his Stands endurance is garbage and weak.

Ignoring the multiple times King Crimson has fought in cqc if he knew he could take an opponent, Touma not having anything on his profile that suggests he can sense the presence of a Stand, the fact I literally just finished a calc for Diavolo and will probably make a CRT later today for that when I wake up, and the fact King Crimson is one of the most durable and hearty Stands in the franchise. Also lol using Stand Stats? Especially the Permeance Stat? Which isnt even talking about his durability. Quite literally almost everything you said was completely wrong. You may have a point on Diavolo not being skilled in cqc given we never see him fight himself, but that's the only point there that wasnt a complete lie.

>If Time Skip doesn't work on Touma, his precognition won't matter. It's also shown that Epitaph's precognition isn't 100% true as the results were turned against Metallica instead of doppio, which would easily happen to Diavolo himself over Touma.

If, key word there. His precog still helps him avoid things ahead of time as long as Epitaph doesnt get ahead of itself and predict things past that. Also that's actually wrong, Doppio misunderstood what was happening in the vision, not that it was changed from him to Nero, if you're talking about the foot thing anyway, Doppio kinda even says himself that yeah, the vision was super accurate and as such I got his leg.

>Diavolo has no victory conditions based on the fact that Time Skip does not work, his main source of attacking and flanking the enemy is now gone. Keep in mind Diavolo doesn't have knowledge on Touma's ability either, so naturally he will try close combat and to flank only to find his efforts in vain regardless of his predictions. Touma's precog is the better one in this situation as it'll read his Stands presence and all of Diavolo's movements itself, as he has no means of restricting his body nor would he know about it.

That's blatantly false, dishonestly so. If time skip doesnt work then he's not even going to bother entering cqc, he'd stay far away from him and attack from afar. Diavolo, in character, never enters cqc without time skip and knowing he can take out his opponent. If he cant he just stays away so moot point, if time skip doesnt work Touma will never get in range and if it does, well than this conversation is pointless. Doesnt need knowledge, Epitaph will tip him off. Touma's precog is actually useless according to the profile, he cant react or sense things that have no visual tells, of which King Crimson doesnt, if you wanna argue otherwise then make a CRT, that's what I'm doing with the Diavolo street calc, it's best you do the same. Wouldnt need to know about it if Epitaph tips him of or his lack of time skip tells him not to enter cqc and deal with this from at range, which he easily could by just flicking a stone or something.
 
>U don't undestand that speed is not the issue here, I copy pasted the part that explains it , even if it's is Instant it change nothing and will not affect touma , if not touma could be teleported cause it's instant (spoilers he can't)

The act of teleportation is instant, the activation of it may not be on the other hand. Also speed? It has nothing to do with speed, well it does, specifically the fact IB has a set speed at which it negates, time erase hard counters that by not only being instant but ocurring when time itself does not exist.

>One of the part I quote alrsy mention croronzon exposed soul as an illusion but there should be other I will find them

I actually can't understand half of what you're saying. No offense but could you at least use auto correct?
 
>t doesn't change anything else I said. King Crimson has never went straight up against another stand directly BECAUSE it has bad Endurance. Regardless of if you use Stats or not he's never once tried to Rush another stand both out of Diavolo's nature and out of lack of compatibility. You can choose to believe what you want but let's not toss headcanons out here.

It does, blatantly so.

Given he's tanked blows from Sticky Fingers, twice, with only minor damage and only got a bloody lip from tanking his own attack, the fact he never had entered a fisticuff with another Stand because they all got ripped apart upon his first hit or even surviving briefly from a pissed off pummel from the strongest Stand in the source material. For one being so privy to headcanons, why are you going around tossing around yours as fact?

Diavolo doesnt like close encounters, cool, his Stand's endurance is still like top 5 and above the entire part minus GER.
 
1 IB is always active there is no turn off or on button so activation speed does not matter 2 by Ur great logic touma should not be able to negate anything faster than his arm , extremely false 3 well I guess activating stand power is not activation while teleporting is activation GJ

1 of the part I quoted already mentioned coronzon exposed soul as an illusion , and we have touma returning a soul to the body in ot 2 ""—Die." In that moment, his words made time stop. Stabbed to death. Strangled to death. Poisoned to death. Shot to death, sliced to death, bashed to death, publicly executed, crucified, incinerated, suffocated, crushed, run over, frozen, drowned, bombed. He compared it to every single way of killing he knew, and yet it didn't give him any insight as to the cause of Himegami's death. There were no wounds. There was no blood loss. There clearly wasn't sickness. She just died. It was just like her batteries had run out. If such a thing as a soul really existed, it was like it had been removed from her body, leaving an empty shell. She didn't even scream. Her body swayed heavily. It leaned backward, faceup—as if to show Kamijou her face—and she started to fall. Slowly. Slowly. Himegami's face began to come into sight."

"Somehow, he was able to grab her body with both hands just before she crumpled to the ground. Her body was extremely light...like something very important had fallen out of it. In his arms was the girl's body, strangely soft. But though weak, a pulse could definitely be felt...through the right hand he caught her with. "Wha...has your right hand annulled my Ars Magna?""

And there is Lilith and the ghost girl I think u already saw them on the wiki

So yes soul are supposed to be in the body not out
 
>IB is always active there is no turn off or on button so activation speed does not matter 2 by Ur great logic touma should not be able to negate anything faster than his arm , extremely false 3 well I guess activating stand power is not activation while teleporting is activation GJ

Why's that matter? The issue isn't activation speed, it's the fact it has no time to actually negate it, IB clearly has a set limit of how fast it can negate, otherwise its issues wouldnt be a issue. The very fact it has a speed and thus needs a timeframe to utilize that speed kinda makes time erase a hard counter, given there's no time to actually negate it as once it happens, by pure definition of what it is, time is already gone and only when it's already done is there time again. If IB can be overwhelmed and essentially, outsped well it speaks for itself. Summoning a Stand is activation yes, but Touma cant negate that unless he's literally touching the user. Plenty of Stands would likely have an extremely small time activation of their main ability, King Crimson though is literally the only Stand where that doesnt apply given his ability is the lack of time.

Your quote literally says he nulled astral projection by touching the body, not nulling the soul itself.You're giving examples of souls being out of the body but, well, we aleady knew that was a thing. That isnt important, what is important is him very explicitly deleting a soul via touching it. Which he never done so from what's been posted, not even Coronzon, given she was defeated via Beyond IB.

Edit: Plus that had literally zero effect on my question, I asked for a source that says that souls out of the body are unnatural and thus can be nulled and souls in it can not. What you linked was Toumu negating what I assume to be astral projection by touching the main body.
 
touma can't negate stand

touma precog doen't work on stand

touma can't negate diavolo time skip

basically touma is normal high school boy
 
Don't be dishonest or grossly exaggerate.

Nobody said that, and you're strawmanning. What's important is if he can negate souls or not, evidence posted above and on the profile explicitly says he can not.
 
Also the issue isnt if the precog works on Stands, the issue is if it works on anything that doesnt have a visual cue or interacts with it's enviroment.
 
Chariot190 said:
Don't be dishonest or grossly exaggerate.
Nobody said that, and you're strawmanning. What's important is if he can negate souls or not, evidence posted above and on the profile explicitly says he can not.
Click to expand...
it's not gross or dishonest


u said since normal soul can't be negated , obviously a stand (which is by no mean supernatural) will not be negated

u said his precog will not work on stand cause he can't see them, even tho he dodge things he can't see just fine

u said that time skip will not be negated cause is faster (?????)
 
Chariot190 said:
Also the issue isnt if the precog works on Stands, the issue is if it works on anything that doesnt have a visual cue or interacts with it's enviroment.
Click to expand...
he dodge an arrow coming from another dimension , btw stand do interact with object (that's why they can grab and punch stuff) they are just intangible and invisible and still made of energy (aka life force)
 
Given you misintepreted and strawmanned in that very post you just did, could've fooled me.

Yes. As I see it now, he can not negate souls on the very fact that he is explicitly said, at least twice, to be incapable of doing that and souls are an exception to his power. You have yet to post a statement from the novel that states that there is a canon distiction between a soul in the body and not. You've posted a example of him putting a soul back in the body, but not even through contact with the soul but the body, and a ability at that.

Yes actually, the profile explicitly says that aint how his precog works and will fail if he cant pick up on cues, listing off examples even.

That's kinda misintepreting what I said hard.
 
@Chariot Imagine Breaker can't negate the soul/lifeforce in its natural state.

@Malox I don't know about time skip, but I don't see why precog wouldn't work or why Imagine Breaker wouldn't just negate stands based of its property of reverting elements foreign to the pure world.
 
> btw stand do interact with object (that's why they can grab and punch stuff) they are just intangible and invisible and still made of energy (aka life force)

Yes no shit, they can interact with objects only when they choose to do so though. Otherwise they dont interact with anything and may as well not even be there, everything just goes through them, hence the intagibility. No visual or enviromental cue exists because the only enviromental cue King Crimson would do 0% of the time is landing a lethal blow on his target, and you cant really that a cue.
 
Cause chariot took some quote out of context and that's enough for him to prove that stand will not be negated

precog i still don't know why it would not work , his only argument is "he can't see him or see diavolo (?????)"

why would an arrow form another dimension be predicted and an intangible invisible ghost not ?

not like touma can see other dimensions
 
>Imagine Breaker can't negate the soul/lifeforce in its natural state.

Which is really just what a Stand is. Just the user's soul, hell in Part 6 it's literally half of what makes up the concept of the soul, the other half is just memories and experiences.

>I don't know about time skip, but I don't see why precog wouldn't work or why Imagine Breaker wouldn't just negate stands based of its property of reverting elements foreign to the pure world.

If precog would work then his profile is severly outdated and needs fixing, everything on the profile suggests it cant. Stands arent foreign though, this is a case of verse's treating this differently I guess. Stands are natural, as natural as the soul, given everything just about has the potential to have a Stand as the Stand is just their soul. Some are even born with it already like Abdul or Pol.
 
>Cause chariot took some quote out of context and that's enough for him to prove that stand will not be negated

How is the very explicit quotes above in the thread out of context? I wasnt even who posted em, if you have a issue with context take it up with who posted the quotes. .

>precog i still don't know why it would not work , his only argument is "he can't see him or see diavolo (?????)"

Nobody said he couldnt see Diavolo, just not King Crimson and you're joking right? How is my only argument that when the profile goes into great detail that there must be a visual cue and even gives examples of his precog failing because he could not see. Dont like it? Make a CRT or drop it.

>why would an arrow form another dimension be predicted and an intangible invisible ghost not ?

Who knows, make a CRT i guess.
 
i see u don't understand what natural state means , ill give u an hint, did u see any stand IRL or hell someone using telekinesis ?


just cause u are born with it does not mean it's natural aka gem stone are natural born esper, fiamma of the right was born with his power , etc
 
precog failed vs an opponent that made no or misleading signal not because he couldn't see, rensa being a cyborg took control of all movement she made giving him false info (body language say she is not gonna attack but epser power are moving) being subconscious he can't choose one or the other so it gives no signal , btw if he can sense magic being casted or used aganist him there is no need to tell u that u need mana and lifeforce for it right

but for strict supernatural stuff his precog works better than on normal stuff (even working on supernatural emotionless beings)
 
He also reacted to L6S Mikoto when he was not even facing her direction, and there is the precog he used in GT1 to null a small shattered glass going in the direction of his forehead, he can react to things he can't see.

And Touma can't negate the Stand before it goes out the user's body, but after it goes then it will be the same ot was with Coronzon, maybe the stand will even be afraid of touching Touma, like Gabriel and Kazakiri.
 
i din't place any vote and im actually thinking for a stomp , in fact both arguments would lead to stomp , i didn't know diavolo was weak physically himself
 
After reading their long debate, y'know what I think?

When Dia uses Time Erase, then Touma would react to Dia's movement even in Time Skip whilst not affecting his Time Erase as it or Dia never shown to interact with the world within Time Skip which pretty much as well Dia don't interact with Touma. When would Touma's null his Time Skip? Obviously when Dia attempted to interact with Touma within Time Skip.

This scenario is only the effect of "Unstoppable Object passed through Immovable Object rather than interacting each other thus both wouldn't contradict each other" (Unstoppable/Immovable Objects are two opposing forces but would result a paradox only in "interaction"): Touma could cause himself as paradox within Time Skip whilst Dia's Time Skip being unaffected by IB AoE null is qualified as causing Dia himself as paradox. Since Dia proves his Time Skip would work partially on AoE via instant effect of his Time Erase ability and within this Time Skip Dia don't interact with Touma, except the Touma's consciousness, but still Touma is still predictable within Time Skip, well, it might malfunction due to his IB AoE (opposing fate partially) but Touma's trajectory still predictable partially while Dia reacting within Time Skip normally. While Touma can react to Time Skip as if nothing change since he null the effects being not to remember the events, which means Touma can can passively see Dia moving within Time Erases so that both of them can predict and frick each other, and Touma can't see Dia's Stand but sense its movement whilst Dia predict his movements beyond time and after his Time Skip(scenario like when Dia saw his last prediction against Gio before Gio obtain GER). While both of them in Time Skip there's some weird paradox after Time Skip passed through IB since they don't interact, well, partially, it's like Unstoppable/Immovable Objects overlapped. Though his Time Skip works on AoE including the audiences or bystanders except for Touma, since Touma and Dia remembers the event within Time Skip excluding audiences, bystanders and Touma's companions, since it's not like Touma's IB null the entire effects of Time Skip resulting his companions to react within Time Skip.

Now knowing that result my opinion won't change so that I dunno wtf is going to win and I'm not telling which one I am. Dia or Touma.
 
the time skip could be nullified all together or just not work touma, it depends how it works , is it constantly active or is it fire and forget ? if it is continuous does it have enough Regenerationn speed and power supply for the effect to overpower IB negatation rate, if it can then only touma is unaffected while the world get skipped if not then the time skip would not happen for the whole world
 
You haven't watched JJBA? Afaik his Stand's skips time... or erasing it... ugh it's hard to explain... I unable to explain his abilities in detail since I only completed watching the latest part and I recently watching JJBA Eyes of the Heaven. But I saw a video in YT a quick way to understand his Stand:

https://youtu.be/jMJKihAmkZY

https://youtu.be/Hd3KjA4T1TQ

https://youtu.be/oj9Ju9AsLjA

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNnvSv7IOlxHjUP2Xz-jo5Lz4yf3tIDSY

(There is a lot of debate of Time Stop vs Time Skip in the comment section)
 
it's not hard to understand. Diavolo just erases 10 seconds of time leaving only the actions but everything he erased no longer exists in the world
 
I do understand how the time skip it self work , I don't know if the effect it self is continuous or it's a fire and forget thing (like creating a fire ball and throwing it Vs creating a stream of fire)
 
Bedroombedrock said:
It's infinitely fast so take that as you will since erasing time is instant to everyone but diavolo
Click to expand...
Again activation time is irrelevant , I'll make a better questions , is time skip constantly changing reality as it's ability is activated using stand power or does he just need to activate it once and time is skipped with no added energy ?
 
> is time skip constantly changing reality

No? It's literally done the exact moment it begins. There's no delay, no timeframe, etc. Time literally ceases to exist briefly. He uses it, and then it's over.
 
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