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>normal soul
So Stands? All Stands are, with few exceptions, are just the soul manifested.
So Stands? All Stands are, with few exceptions, are just the soul manifested.
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Diavolo vs Touma
- Thread starter Eganergo
- Start date
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Yes, so about 90% of Stands? Stands are literally just the manifestation of the soul, in fact Part 6 confirms that Stands are literally just that, the user's soul. Some Stands are a bit different like bound Stands, hostless Stands or a few odd ones that dont have a form, but King Crimson is one of the Stands that's literally just Diavolo's soul (hell a decent chunk of the fanbase seemsto think King Crimson is Diavolo to an extent).
A Stand having a physical appearance doesnt change the fact most are just the manifestation of the soul, literally a punch ghost.
A Stand having a physical appearance doesnt change the fact most are just the manifestation of the soul, literally a punch ghost.
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Except from what I see above, there is no such rule. All I see is that apparently, it cant negate the life force or the soul of someone. Which is exactly what a Stand is. If there is evidence to suggest otherwise post it and I'll accept it, I already said as much above when I said if it aint contradicted. Post evidence that contradicts it and suggests that he can negate life force or souls, if he has a example of doing so to a manifestation of a soul or negating life energy than post it and the conversation will conclude.
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Just did, assuming you're talking about Coro's manifested body, not her soul mind you, that's completely different. Assuming he negated that, he negated not a soul but a fake body.
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no i mean her soul, he can't actually negate the body of flesh cause as u can guess it's a natural body
"Are you trying to apply a powerful external pressure to remove my soul from this temporary body!?"
A dull sound reverberated across the large temple made from the Queen Britannia's heliport.
Below the blue sky, Great Demon Coronzon limply collapsed. The sound was her forehead hitting the floor.
And.
"…"
Another figure trembled while looking down at her hands.
This other Great Demon Coronzon could only watch as her physical body collapsed in front of her."
u are literally arguing semantic at this point, it would be logical to anyone that stand are supernautal, just cause it comes form the soul it does not mean they are not supernatural, esper powers and magic both comes the soul too, they get negated just fine (magic is refined life force, while espers use the concept of thelema which still manifest from the soul)
"Are you trying to apply a powerful external pressure to remove my soul from this temporary body!?"
A dull sound reverberated across the large temple made from the Queen Britannia's heliport.
Below the blue sky, Great Demon Coronzon limply collapsed. The sound was her forehead hitting the floor.
And.
"…"
Another figure trembled while looking down at her hands.
This other Great Demon Coronzon could only watch as her physical body collapsed in front of her."
u are literally arguing semantic at this point, it would be logical to anyone that stand are supernautal, just cause it comes form the soul it does not mean they are not supernatural, esper powers and magic both comes the soul too, they get negated just fine (magic is refined life force, while espers use the concept of thelema which still manifest from the soul)
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So he simply removed her soul from her host body, aka stopped her possesion? not literally deleted her soul? This aint semantics, it's actually extremely different. I've seen arguing of semantics, this aint one of those times.
Cool Touma could null a Stand like Anubis given what you posted, not literally lol delete something like Star Platinum and kill Jotaro on contact.
Cool Touma could null a Stand like Anubis given what you posted, not literally lol delete something like Star Platinum and kill Jotaro on contact.
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no it was not him , accelerator removed her soul, she was in that state when she fought touma , i posted her state
"So who was it that used Misaka Mikoto's weapon arm as a foothold to climb through the torn-open fissure and onto the heliport?
Kamijou Touma.
The Great Demon's true enemy was this one boy who had rushed along the same floor as the wheelhouse to arrive directly below here.
"……………………………………………………………………………………………You can't possibly do it."
Most likely, she already knew her fate. But Coronzon still moved her trembling lips below the winter sun that looked almost white.
"You could never be a match for me!! This is the Aeon of Horus and a single Magick attack can obliterate you. Know your place, human! No Great Demon shall succumb to that right hand!!!!!!"
"That no longer applies." That exasperated voice came from baby Lilith who could also view different locations. "You only managed to obliterate that boy when you had your body of flesh and blood. Now that you are no more than Coronzon the drifting illusion, do you really think you can overwhelm that?"
"…"
ur argument are very cherry picked at this point
and again if stand are life force given form then they are like mana which get negated just fine
"So who was it that used Misaka Mikoto's weapon arm as a foothold to climb through the torn-open fissure and onto the heliport?
Kamijou Touma.
The Great Demon's true enemy was this one boy who had rushed along the same floor as the wheelhouse to arrive directly below here.
"……………………………………………………………………………………………You can't possibly do it."
Most likely, she already knew her fate. But Coronzon still moved her trembling lips below the winter sun that looked almost white.
"You could never be a match for me!! This is the Aeon of Horus and a single Magick attack can obliterate you. Know your place, human! No Great Demon shall succumb to that right hand!!!!!!"
"That no longer applies." That exasperated voice came from baby Lilith who could also view different locations. "You only managed to obliterate that boy when you had your body of flesh and blood. Now that you are no more than Coronzon the drifting illusion, do you really think you can overwhelm that?"
"…"
ur argument are very cherry picked at this point
and again if stand are life force given form then they are like mana which get negated just fine
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Without sufficient context, not gonna lie but that doesnt really tell me much. Especially given you havent actually posted Touma deleting her ass to the shadow realm. Only screwing with her physical body and going nah.
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Stand is supranatural phenomenon. Any supranatural phenomenon will be negated by IB. So yea, thats how OP IB against supranatural ability. Touma also can also react against supranatural attack via his IB + Precognition, so stand still will be destroyed eventhough he cant see it.
If you mean Touma can remove soul while its still inside human body, no he cant because its considered as non supranatural phenomenon. But if you mean Touma can destroy soul while its not inside people body, yes he can and that most case of stand since when stands active, they outside its owner body.
If you mean Touma can remove soul while its still inside human body, no he cant because its considered as non supranatural phenomenon. But if you mean Touma can destroy soul while its not inside people body, yes he can and that most case of stand since when stands active, they outside its owner body.
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Yes except as shown above in those scans, it explicitly says, Touma can not negate the souls and life energy of others. A Stand being supernatural doesnt matter because so are life energy and souls, as stated above in the quotes pointing out that the things Touma can not negate are in spite of his inability to do so, still supernatural, because they are the souls and life force of others, they are exceptions to the rule. Stands are just the souls of the user, Touma, from what I;ve seen posted, is incapable of simply negating and deleting a soul on contact, ergo untill someone posts him doing so explicitly, the above text contradicts your claims.
Also precognition really aint helping Touma here, lest you forget Diavolo himself has precog, at best it's a neutral stalemate on that front, not an advantage. Although Epitaph has the bonus benefit of having guranteed fated visions.
Honestly it feels like a rule you're kinda making up to say that he can, where does it say that as long as a soul is out of the body then he can negate it?
Also precognition really aint helping Touma here, lest you forget Diavolo himself has precog, at best it's a neutral stalemate on that front, not an advantage. Although Epitaph has the bonus benefit of having guranteed fated visions.
Honestly it feels like a rule you're kinda making up to say that he can, where does it say that as long as a soul is out of the body then he can negate it?
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well cause she cuts his arm right before he is about to touch her in a desperate move and then get still ass blasted to the shadow realmChariot190 said:
By the time the weapon arm moved on its own, it was too late.
A rainbow-colored beam of light erupted out as a merciless surprise attack from behind Kamijou Touma.
There was nothing he could do.
A sizzling sound followed.
Kamijou Touma's right arm was forcibly severed at the shoulder and flew through the air. Even if it functioned as a reference point for the world, it could not be converted into a destructive power once it was removed from his body. It could not punch Coronzon in the face anymore.
"!!"
The boy clenched his teeth as if restraining something trying to leave his body.
But…
"I cannot be stopped. I am Great Demon Coronzon, the destructive power that returns the world to its rightful circulation!!"
If she unleashed another Magick: Flaming_Sword from point-blank range now, it was all over. Kamijou Touma had nothing to defend himself with, so the rest of his body would be reduced to mincemeat.
However.
Magic was a technique of distorting the world's causality for your own purposes. Its sparks and spray would eventually find their way back to influence the magic user in unexpected ways. An action taken to achieve a certain goal could end up crushing that very some goal in some hidden way.
In this case, that was seen when something burst from Kamijou Touma's right shoulder with an unpleasant noise.
It was like dark red fish eggs. But that collection of perfectly triangular surfaces seemed to symbolize the artificial. Those artificial objects were like the polygons in a video game. They came in all sizes, they were connected together, and they moved like a single giant arm.
There was no pain.
This was what he had worked so hard to restrain. It was…
"Wha—?"
There was a deafening straining sound. It did not just come from the shoulder where the arm had been. Kamijou Touma's entire body gave off a great din that never should have come from a human. The control had shifted. Instead of the boy controlling his right hand's power, the hidden power now raced throughout the boy's entire body.
What was going through his head as his body moved against his will?
Or was he capable of taking an objective view of the situation?
"No…it's going to come out… You have…someone to rely on, don't you? Then go ask for their help, Coronzon!!!!!!"
What followed was a sticky sound like bursting bubbles.
The objects that resembled giant fish eggs made from triangular surfaces burst within as something else made an appearance. But this was not just one thing. That swarm was clearly larger than the boy's own body. The boy was not controlling the power; he was hanging from the power. That was the symbolism here.
And.
And.
And.
It happened with a deafening roar.
There was also a blinding flash of light.
The temple was torn apart from within and the entire Queen Britannia was split in two."
btw yes the author is such an hack we are left with yet again off screen of touma power
before u ask no there i no more of the fight right after it cuts to the epilogue of the volume
btw u still have not responded to the other inquires, if it's manifested life force why is it different than mana or esper power ? or why would it be in the IB back up ?
before u ask yes mana and esper power come from the soul/life enrgy too
Mana is a form of energy that exists in all forms of life; magicians however, are capable of harnessing it for practical purposes. A method for producing mana is to convert the life force (þöƒÕæ¢Õèø Seimeiryoku?, lit. (one's) life force) of a living organism into it.
for esper : https://s5.********.org/data/464a278a3fa9cf22e310faaa77f18435/x6.png and " "I am not some bizarre Academy City technology, nor am I one of your garbage esper powers that simply rewrite the concepts of Thelema using arbitrary new terminology like Personal Reality… "
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From what I know about the verse, what's happening there is the dark dragon things concealed within his arm or whatever, not actually something Touma is doing under normal conditions. Plus I have a sneaking suspicion some context is being left out, given from looking up a few things, Coro isn't even strictly just a soul or lifeforce, it's more complex than that and that's being failed to be mentioned here.
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Why's it different? Because the novel literally says that he can not negate or null it. That's why it's different, those things are just excluded from supernatural things that he can negate. Wouldnt need to be backed up if he cant negate it to begin with.
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Touma can null stands because they are life force acting outside their users/creators bodies, and this works exactly like magic in ToAru, then stands are nulled.Chariot190 said:
Diavolo having precog don't change that much, since he can't use his stand or time erase to attack Touma, and Touma has better H2h feats i believe
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"Are you trying to apply a powerful external pressure to remove my soul from this temporary body!?"Chariot190 said:
A dull sound reverberated across the large temple made from the Queen Britannia's heliport.
Below the blue sky, Great Demon Coronzon limply collapsed. The sound was her forehead hitting the floor.
And.
"…"
Another figure trembled while looking down at her hands.
This other Great Demon Coronzon could only watch as her physical body collapsed in front of her."
at this point u are scrambling for some counter argument but still can't answer the other questions:
how is it different from mana or esper powers ?
why would stand be in the back up file of the original to aru world ?
why would a soul outside of the body be counted as normal ?
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>Touma can null stands because they are life force acting outside their users/creators bodies, and this works exactly like magic in ToAru, then stands are nulled.
That keeps being brought up but I dont see an actual hard proof that suggests that's the case, and to be specific, Stands are the soul, not exactly life energy.
>Diavolo having precog don't change that much, since he can't use his stand or time erase to attack Touma, and Touma has better H2h feats i believe
Touma would have to actually touch his Stand to make it so he cant use it. And time erase above is being contested on if it's actually effecting Touma or not. And Diavolo's precog actually does change a lot, for one small reason, Diavolo's precog shows him what is absolutely fated to happen, ergo whatever happens in Diavolo's forecasted images are what Touma will do, as in absolutely guranteed, IB or not, if Touma doesnt resist the natural flow of fate then he's gonna do whatever Diavolo sees in his precog, even if Toumu himself knew that he shouldnt do such things, which would allow Diavolo to just like, counter Touma and avoid his fated blows? Touma's precog doesnt have that benefit, it's just normal precog. Also wanna point out Touma's precog works by seeing his opponents involuntary movements and his body reacting to said movements to dodge, which I dont think I have to say why that wouldnt work on a invisible punch ghost he cant see.
That keeps being brought up but I dont see an actual hard proof that suggests that's the case, and to be specific, Stands are the soul, not exactly life energy.
>Diavolo having precog don't change that much, since he can't use his stand or time erase to attack Touma, and Touma has better H2h feats i believe
Touma would have to actually touch his Stand to make it so he cant use it. And time erase above is being contested on if it's actually effecting Touma or not. And Diavolo's precog actually does change a lot, for one small reason, Diavolo's precog shows him what is absolutely fated to happen, ergo whatever happens in Diavolo's forecasted images are what Touma will do, as in absolutely guranteed, IB or not, if Touma doesnt resist the natural flow of fate then he's gonna do whatever Diavolo sees in his precog, even if Toumu himself knew that he shouldnt do such things, which would allow Diavolo to just like, counter Touma and avoid his fated blows? Touma's precog doesnt have that benefit, it's just normal precog. Also wanna point out Touma's precog works by seeing his opponents involuntary movements and his body reacting to said movements to dodge, which I dont think I have to say why that wouldnt work on a invisible punch ghost he cant see.
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Malox, context is key. Youre kinda ignoring what actually happened in the very thing youre citing, which is odd given even I can pick up on what actually happened there.
>at this point u are scrambling for some counter argument but still can't answer the other questions:
Not really even doing that, but if you'd want me to put it bluntly, I'm calling bullshit on that example. It wasnt even him specifically that neg'd Coro.
>how is it different from mana or esper powers ?
Well given Mana isnt life energy, it's made from life energy yes, but it isnt literally straight up life energy let alone the soul, going by the To Aru wiki article for it, so not really all that comparable to Stands which are the soul itself in most cases.
>why would stand be in the back up file of the original to aru world ?
Dont know why is this even relevant to begin with given yet to see concrete evidence that contradicts the above quotes.
>why would a soul outside of the body be counted as normal ?
A better question is why would a soul outside the body be considered not normal? Given with the exception of Coro which wasnt even nulled via IB but rather the things concealed within, and even then there's more to it then that, there isnt anything actually suggesting otherwise.
>at this point u are scrambling for some counter argument but still can't answer the other questions:
Not really even doing that, but if you'd want me to put it bluntly, I'm calling bullshit on that example. It wasnt even him specifically that neg'd Coro.
>how is it different from mana or esper powers ?
Well given Mana isnt life energy, it's made from life energy yes, but it isnt literally straight up life energy let alone the soul, going by the To Aru wiki article for it, so not really all that comparable to Stands which are the soul itself in most cases.
>why would stand be in the back up file of the original to aru world ?
Dont know why is this even relevant to begin with given yet to see concrete evidence that contradicts the above quotes.
>why would a soul outside of the body be counted as normal ?
A better question is why would a soul outside the body be considered not normal? Given with the exception of Coro which wasnt even nulled via IB but rather the things concealed within, and even then there's more to it then that, there isnt anything actually suggesting otherwise.
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Touma has two precogs, one for humans, the other for supernatural things, the second one isn't vision based.
Souls and life force are, basically, the same thing in ToAru, and like Malox said, Touma nulled Coronzon's soul after Accel punched it out of her body, because souls aren't supposed to be outside the body.
Souls and life force are, basically, the same thing in ToAru, and like Malox said, Touma nulled Coronzon's soul after Accel punched it out of her body, because souls aren't supposed to be outside the body.
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Why isnt that on his profile then? Because every mention of precog on the profile specifically talks about that and nothing else.
Not going by the quote that Malox posted, it was the things within his arm that did so upon his arm getting cut of if I'm reading this right.
Not going by the quote that Malox posted, it was the things within his arm that did so upon his arm getting cut of if I'm reading this right.
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So basically all I got from this is, as well as according to the profile given I just did a quick full read of it.
Touma can't negate life or soul energy, but he can negate things made from life energy such as mana.
He can negate souls but only with Beyond Imagine Breaker.
And he needs a CRT because he lacks his secondary precognition as his profile in all cases only makes note that he reacts to things via minute differences and movemts of things.
On top of him apparently being incapable of negating things created by powers as long as said things arent supernatural themselves, like fire magic melting something onto him, he could negate the magic but not the liquid lava. Not relevant here, unless Diavolo just decides to toss a rock at him to be safe.
Touma can't negate life or soul energy, but he can negate things made from life energy such as mana.
He can negate souls but only with Beyond Imagine Breaker.
And he needs a CRT because he lacks his secondary precognition as his profile in all cases only makes note that he reacts to things via minute differences and movemts of things.
On top of him apparently being incapable of negating things created by powers as long as said things arent supernatural themselves, like fire magic melting something onto him, he could negate the magic but not the liquid lava. Not relevant here, unless Diavolo just decides to toss a rock at him to be safe.
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for supernatural is still work by vision but instinct too, and just being invisible does not mean u don0't interact with the world (or stand couldn't punch peoples) touma can subconsciously pick up such minute changes if it's for the supernatural (he even picked up an arrow coming from another dimension)
and im quite sure life energy and soul are the same thing in index , for example lilith is described as just a soul and as life energy , i remember someone made a point about it in another thread
and let's be clear coronzon knew she was about to be nulled, she in fact made sure not to get touched in any way or shape possible (even preferred getting obliterated by the other power)
it relates cause IB is a back up of the world first and a negation power second , if u could mess up with what is inside u could set what u want (that's why some supernatural energy exceptions) stand are not there
btw the quote refer to a normal soul in a normal body not outside "
For example, he does not destroy someone's soul when he touches them, and he does not destroy the planet when he touches it. Yet those things do indeed have supernatural power flowing through them."
and why would time skip work on touma btw ? changes that directly affect reality are negated like angel fall , only if u mess with the system itself or somewhere where Ib can touch u can bypass it (aka phases)
and im quite sure life energy and soul are the same thing in index , for example lilith is described as just a soul and as life energy , i remember someone made a point about it in another thread
and let's be clear coronzon knew she was about to be nulled, she in fact made sure not to get touched in any way or shape possible (even preferred getting obliterated by the other power)
it relates cause IB is a back up of the world first and a negation power second , if u could mess up with what is inside u could set what u want (that's why some supernatural energy exceptions) stand are not there
btw the quote refer to a normal soul in a normal body not outside "
For example, he does not destroy someone's soul when he touches them, and he does not destroy the planet when he touches it. Yet those things do indeed have supernatural power flowing through them."
and why would time skip work on touma btw ? changes that directly affect reality are negated like angel fall , only if u mess with the system itself or somewhere where Ib can touch u can bypass it (aka phases)
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he can't negate normal soul inside a bodyChariot190 said:
and the thing beyond IB just destroyed coronzon by raw power (he came back btw)
actually he can negate something melting on him it just depends , for example if u set fire to an object with magic a trow it at him he would negate the fire and the heat form the object, not the ashes
as along as is not direct correlation, like u can use explosion magic to make an house fall on him
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Except Stands dont interact with the world unless they actively attempt to do so, otherwise they're completely intangible and every thing just goes through it. There would be nothing to react to as King Crimson isnt touching or interacting with anything in the first place.
Regardless, doesnt change my point in the slightest.
You say that but that would mean Coro knew about the stated limitations of IB, if she wasnt aaware of the limitations than of course she'd react like that, why wouldnt she given what she knew?
Cool so it doesnt actually relate to the topic at hand then?
Doesnt matter, thats not what either quote says, it makes zero distiction between if it's in something or not, but what it does say is that souls and life energy, are exempt from his power. If a Stand is literally the user;s soul and Touma cant negate souls then he cant negate a Stand, mana isnt purely life energy so moot point and Coro wasnt even done in by him but by Beyond IB.
I didnt say it would work on him, just that it was being contested, although that's still up for debate honesty given time erase isnt effecting Touma but time itself, and apparently things exist that IB cant negate due to being faster than his negation, as such he can only distort it, which begs the question if he can even negate a instantaneous effect like time skip as time skip is done in a period of 0 time but that isnt what I'm debating here. Epitaph would work fine though, it's not effecting him in the slightest, at all.
Regardless, doesnt change my point in the slightest.
You say that but that would mean Coro knew about the stated limitations of IB, if she wasnt aaware of the limitations than of course she'd react like that, why wouldnt she given what she knew?
Cool so it doesnt actually relate to the topic at hand then?
Doesnt matter, thats not what either quote says, it makes zero distiction between if it's in something or not, but what it does say is that souls and life energy, are exempt from his power. If a Stand is literally the user;s soul and Touma cant negate souls then he cant negate a Stand, mana isnt purely life energy so moot point and Coro wasnt even done in by him but by Beyond IB.
I didnt say it would work on him, just that it was being contested, although that's still up for debate honesty given time erase isnt effecting Touma but time itself, and apparently things exist that IB cant negate due to being faster than his negation, as such he can only distort it, which begs the question if he can even negate a instantaneous effect like time skip as time skip is done in a period of 0 time but that isnt what I'm debating here. Epitaph would work fine though, it's not effecting him in the slightest, at all.
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>he can't negate normal soul inside a body
Of course, issue is I doubt he can do so wether it's in or outside of the body.
>and the thing beyond IB just destroyed coronzon by raw power (he came back btw)
Ok so then he literally has zero feats of negating a soul then?
>actually he can negate something melting on him it just depends , for example if u set fire to an object with magic a trow it at him he would negate the fire and the heat form the object, not the ashes
Yeah I got that, I didnt give an example of something he could negate though, if flame magic melted some steel and that steel melted on him, he wouldnt be able to negate it. So I dont see why youre clarifying something that wasnt argued.
>as along as is not direct correlation, like u can use explosion magic to make an house fall on him
Well aware.
Of course, issue is I doubt he can do so wether it's in or outside of the body.
>and the thing beyond IB just destroyed coronzon by raw power (he came back btw)
Ok so then he literally has zero feats of negating a soul then?
>actually he can negate something melting on him it just depends , for example if u set fire to an object with magic a trow it at him he would negate the fire and the heat form the object, not the ashes
Yeah I got that, I didnt give an example of something he could negate though, if flame magic melted some steel and that steel melted on him, he wouldnt be able to negate it. So I dont see why youre clarifying something that wasnt argued.
>as along as is not direct correlation, like u can use explosion magic to make an house fall on him
Well aware.
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same for another dimension arrow he still dodge itChariot190 said:
coronzon knew of IB much more than others more than even touma (as she know what inside it) and is older than the human race
mana is purely life energy , just used in a different way and again soul are supposed to be inside the body touma would negate something natural being in a supernatural state
things don't get negated by IB not because they are faster but because they have more energy or Regenerationn power, cancelling speed means the rate it can negate tot amount of power, cause IB negates at a set rate , if the power is too big then it can't fully negate it in 1 touch same for regenerating powers
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The make a CRT I guess because every single thing on his profile says that there must be a visual indicator and it's even listed as his weakness.
But that doesnt tell me she knew of that exact limitation. Also looking further, here's a question, was that the avatar of Coronzon? The energy-based avatar. If it's a avatar, then kinda a moot point, especially given I dont even think she's dead.
Literally not what the wiki article says on it, it's life energy after being processed and refined into a different state, ergo while it originates from it, it no longer is life energy.
> It also cannot "completely" negate something if it surpasses its canceling speed such as Stiyl's Innocentius or Accelerator's Dark Wings, but Touma has learned to use this limitation to his advantage and use Imagine Breaker to interfere via "disruption." When upon contact with an attack, he can physically grab it and disrupt it.
Is what the profile says, specifically says it's canceling speed. Meaning they regen faster than it can cancel or can are faster than it in general, but it tells us one thing, in that IB has a speed at which it cancels things, ergo how can he cancel time skip when time skip is instant and last for 0 time? IB wont have time to negate it because time is gone if IB truly does have a speed of negation. Which is what the profile suggests. Unless of course IB has infinite or above negation speed but Accel's wings dont regen at that speed. And I doubt energy is a issue given it failed to fully negate Accel's wings yet they aint 1-C.
Not that'd it matter, tbh I dont think time skip is even important, Diavolo's better precog can gimp Touma and he can just like, ohko upon fate taking its course or toss a pebble. King Crimson aint even a stranger to tossing things anyway.
But that doesnt tell me she knew of that exact limitation. Also looking further, here's a question, was that the avatar of Coronzon? The energy-based avatar. If it's a avatar, then kinda a moot point, especially given I dont even think she's dead.
Literally not what the wiki article says on it, it's life energy after being processed and refined into a different state, ergo while it originates from it, it no longer is life energy.
> It also cannot "completely" negate something if it surpasses its canceling speed such as Stiyl's Innocentius or Accelerator's Dark Wings, but Touma has learned to use this limitation to his advantage and use Imagine Breaker to interfere via "disruption." When upon contact with an attack, he can physically grab it and disrupt it.
Is what the profile says, specifically says it's canceling speed. Meaning they regen faster than it can cancel or can are faster than it in general, but it tells us one thing, in that IB has a speed at which it cancels things, ergo how can he cancel time skip when time skip is instant and last for 0 time? IB wont have time to negate it because time is gone if IB truly does have a speed of negation. Which is what the profile suggests. Unless of course IB has infinite or above negation speed but Accel's wings dont regen at that speed. And I doubt energy is a issue given it failed to fully negate Accel's wings yet they aint 1-C.
Not that'd it matter, tbh I dont think time skip is even important, Diavolo's better precog can gimp Touma and he can just like, ohko upon fate taking its course or toss a pebble. King Crimson aint even a stranger to tossing things anyway.
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what it's not listed as his weakness ?Chariot190 said:
that was not the avatr of coronzon, i will expalin fully now, coronzon first faked to posses the body of aleister daughter but it was actually his body created by him and is a normal body (so it's called his avatar cause they thought he was possessing someone), touma can't negated such a body cuase it's natural for a saoul to eb in a normal body and it's supposed to be his body, then accel removed the his soul from the body , that is an unnatural state of things and then touma came to negate him , he scarred that he would dissapear tries to not get touched and even go so far as cutting his right arm knowing what's coming as he later says that "that thing "(yes **** the author) is out of control
""You caused this yourself. There were a few past opportunities for the stopper to fail: against Fiamma of the Right, against Magic God Othinus, and against Aiwass too I suppose. …But you went too far this time. The lock has broken. What do you intend to do about that which refuses to break down and that which lurks within it?"
In other words.
The short-haired Crosser of the Abyss gave the answer.
Using knowledge normal people could never reach.
"The biggest problem is Kamijou Touma and the power of his right hand. There is no holding that in anymore."
stand are still an unnatural state of life energy not unlike ghosts
yes cancelling speed, if can't kept up with large enough of power or Regenerationn power with it's cancelling speed , not speedy things , innocentius is not 1-c too it still pushed back IB, IB works well on direct changes (for example a reality warper chaging the universe) not on raw energy like a big kamheamhea , especially if said energy is continually regenerated or being created
touma is immune to fate manipulation and reading too, MGs which are 1-HC can't give him their blessing for example, (always thanks too IB)
"That is the same," readily stated the High Priest. "It is true Saints fall on the fortunate side of things, but they had no say in being born a Saint. That means there were some larger rails in place there. The very fact that they receive that fortune as Saints was determined by that unshakeable destiny."
At that point, the mummy laughed dryly.
"Although, if we're talking about destiny, then you would be the sole exception. Thanks to your Imagine Breaker, even the vague power of us Magic Gods is uniformly leveled out. That keeps any large waves away from you alone and keeps you in constant misfortune."
"I'd say that was clumsiness, not misfortune," said Index with a slight smile. "But if this Imagine Breaker is real, it may be inevitable."
"…What do you mean?"
"This is related to the world of magic, so I doubt you will believe me," said Index with a giggle. "But if the divine protection of God and the red string of fate actually exist, then wouldn't your right hand negate all of those things?" Index shook her safety pin-covered nun's habit and added, "The power of this Walking Church was a blessing of God after all."
something like fate is supernatural by nature, the world could be perfectly predicted with enough info but u would need to have knowledge of the state of every particle in the universe which would be difficult but not impossible
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> His precognition skill can be restricted by opponents with superior control over their involuntary body movements,
From his weaknesses, also explained in his attack and technique section.
>Precognition: Literally referred in the original Japanese novels as Premonition Perception or Sense of Foreboding (ÕëìÕàåÒü«µäƒþƒÑ Zenchō no Kanchi), but translated as Precognition in the fan translation for simplicity. Precognition is the term used by characters to refer to the skill unconsciously developed by Kamijou Touma through his many battles. Touma has gotten into such a plethora of fights that he now can subconsciously anticipate attacks coming his way. Combined with his reflexes and the courage to keep his body and thoughts moving allows him to judge accurately what to do next. This works because Touma is capable of unconsciously analyzing minute changes in the battlefield and involuntary movements made by his enemies that likely not even they are aware of. For example, Misaka Mikoto's electromagnetic fields making metal items around her resonate. Even if Touma doesn't consciously register these things, his unconscious does, allowing him to accurately predict the path of an attack and move his body accordingly to stop it with Imagine Breaker, dodge it or try to reduce the damage to his vitals in case the former two options aren't possible. It's because of this skill that Touma has been able to react to supersonic attacks, but it's been noted that if he consciously takes note of it in battle and tries to use it then it would likely fail. Due to the mechanics of this skill, it can be sealed by an opponent who can restrict the information he receives, like the cyborg Rensa who could completely freeze her face and control all of her body involuntary muscular movements. This skill can be more simply described as a "sixth sense" to react to upcoming attacks.
If you disagree make a CRT.
As for your, to be honest extremely hard to read description, no offense but it's hard to read, the To Aru article for Coronzon disagrees. Completely ignoing your attempts to draw and chalk it up to authoral stupidity (given we know what Imagine Breaker conceals and in that moment that's what happened, dont know why youre acting like Beyond IB is hack worthy) but not only that, Touma doesnt even negate Coronzon's soul, in your own words you claim Coronzon was blown to shit via power, not negated.
Stands can be considered both natural and unnatural, in context (contect being the verse) they aren't unnatural, especially given some are born with them and Stands are just the soul, while supernatural by definition of being soul based, apparently that's something Touma can not negate. So really, yeah they're supernatural, but they also fit a definition of something Touma can not negate, given unlike the things that he has negated, Stands, most are anyway, are literally the soul, not a power from the soul, not an ability derived from it, but the soul itself. In JoJo the soul is made up of two things, the conscious and the Stand. With the Stand being the actual soul part.
Well issue with those examples of it's canceling speed is, time erase doesnt have a speed it begins instantly and ends instantly, all within quite literally 0 time, it's been established that it has a speed and thus must have time, even if an infintasmly small amount of time, to actually negate something. Time Erase prevents that by deleting time itself temporarily.
Nobody ever said anything about fate manipulation (Epitaph doesnt manipulate fate, it merely looks at the future and everything within it is bound by fate (hammered in with the whole sleeping slave arc) and the inability to alter what has already transpired in the future as Epitaph only shows what is guranteed to occur), Epitaph doesnt maniplate fate, it just shows the absolute guranteed actions of others, especially those bound by fate as they're metaphorical sleeping slaves. Touma isnt outside the flow of future actions. Epitaph isnt reading him or effecting him if that's what you think, Epitaph looks at the future and fate itself, not a specific target (although it can be focused on, in the sense he can basically zoom in). Unless Touma for some unknown reason is unbound by fate (which e seems to be so I'll give you that) or doesnt exist in the future a few seconds from the present (this one unfortunately does not apply), dont see why Epitaph wouldnt work given it's not actually interactng with Touma but rather looking at what is guranteed to happen within the next few seconds wether it be by fate itself thus forcing everything to happen the exact same way, but also simply by seeing exactly what will transpire ahead of time. Pretty sure there's a small imgur album link on his profile.
tbh I'm just gonna wait for Someone who likes to read, to reply back. He started this, he can finish it. Although I'm fine with your Touma resists fate thing, those quotes are explicit enough.
From his weaknesses, also explained in his attack and technique section.
>Precognition: Literally referred in the original Japanese novels as Premonition Perception or Sense of Foreboding (ÕëìÕàåÒü«µäƒþƒÑ Zenchō no Kanchi), but translated as Precognition in the fan translation for simplicity. Precognition is the term used by characters to refer to the skill unconsciously developed by Kamijou Touma through his many battles. Touma has gotten into such a plethora of fights that he now can subconsciously anticipate attacks coming his way. Combined with his reflexes and the courage to keep his body and thoughts moving allows him to judge accurately what to do next. This works because Touma is capable of unconsciously analyzing minute changes in the battlefield and involuntary movements made by his enemies that likely not even they are aware of. For example, Misaka Mikoto's electromagnetic fields making metal items around her resonate. Even if Touma doesn't consciously register these things, his unconscious does, allowing him to accurately predict the path of an attack and move his body accordingly to stop it with Imagine Breaker, dodge it or try to reduce the damage to his vitals in case the former two options aren't possible. It's because of this skill that Touma has been able to react to supersonic attacks, but it's been noted that if he consciously takes note of it in battle and tries to use it then it would likely fail. Due to the mechanics of this skill, it can be sealed by an opponent who can restrict the information he receives, like the cyborg Rensa who could completely freeze her face and control all of her body involuntary muscular movements. This skill can be more simply described as a "sixth sense" to react to upcoming attacks.
If you disagree make a CRT.
As for your, to be honest extremely hard to read description, no offense but it's hard to read, the To Aru article for Coronzon disagrees. Completely ignoing your attempts to draw and chalk it up to authoral stupidity (given we know what Imagine Breaker conceals and in that moment that's what happened, dont know why youre acting like Beyond IB is hack worthy) but not only that, Touma doesnt even negate Coronzon's soul, in your own words you claim Coronzon was blown to shit via power, not negated.
Stands can be considered both natural and unnatural, in context (contect being the verse) they aren't unnatural, especially given some are born with them and Stands are just the soul, while supernatural by definition of being soul based, apparently that's something Touma can not negate. So really, yeah they're supernatural, but they also fit a definition of something Touma can not negate, given unlike the things that he has negated, Stands, most are anyway, are literally the soul, not a power from the soul, not an ability derived from it, but the soul itself. In JoJo the soul is made up of two things, the conscious and the Stand. With the Stand being the actual soul part.
Well issue with those examples of it's canceling speed is, time erase doesnt have a speed it begins instantly and ends instantly, all within quite literally 0 time, it's been established that it has a speed and thus must have time, even if an infintasmly small amount of time, to actually negate something. Time Erase prevents that by deleting time itself temporarily.
Nobody ever said anything about fate manipulation (Epitaph doesnt manipulate fate, it merely looks at the future and everything within it is bound by fate (hammered in with the whole sleeping slave arc) and the inability to alter what has already transpired in the future as Epitaph only shows what is guranteed to occur), Epitaph doesnt maniplate fate, it just shows the absolute guranteed actions of others, especially those bound by fate as they're metaphorical sleeping slaves. Touma isnt outside the flow of future actions. Epitaph isnt reading him or effecting him if that's what you think, Epitaph looks at the future and fate itself, not a specific target (although it can be focused on, in the sense he can basically zoom in). Unless Touma for some unknown reason is unbound by fate (which e seems to be so I'll give you that) or doesnt exist in the future a few seconds from the present (this one unfortunately does not apply), dont see why Epitaph wouldnt work given it's not actually interactng with Touma but rather looking at what is guranteed to happen within the next few seconds wether it be by fate itself thus forcing everything to happen the exact same way, but also simply by seeing exactly what will transpire ahead of time. Pretty sure there's a small imgur album link on his profile.
tbh I'm just gonna wait for Someone who likes to read, to reply back. He started this, he can finish it. Although I'm fine with your Touma resists fate thing, those quotes are explicit enough.
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guess u just skimmed to thought the wiki
precog works even for minute expression for the face or body too even ,diavolo looking at him could give away where it's gonna hit (not the first time touma fought invisible attaks) anyway here precog working dimensional arrow
"Devoting himself to evasion was meaningless.
His path threatened to waver, but he used the power of his will to desperately keep himself on course.
…The eighth shot overcame the restrictions of the third dimension.
Kamijou felt a static electricity-like spark on his spine and immediately swung his head to the side as hard as he could. An instant later, space suddenly split open and an arrow assaulted the world.
He focused on his trajectory."
for negation, it's called cancellation speed, but something being faster does not matter touma negates light speed attack fine when he touches them the problem is power
"That boy's right hand seemed to have the effect of negating any supernatural power. But, because of limits there were cases where massive powers that couldn't be negated completely ended up only blocked by the right hand. From what she had seen, Fiamma's special giant sword had taken a while before it was erased completely.
Normally speaking, being unable to negate something completely… should be a disadvantage for him.
But,
Just now, that teenager used that 'flaw' to deliberately grab a black wing he couldn't negate completely. Then twist the wing to make the attacker lose his balance, and create a small safe area when he was surrounded completely by the black wings.
Negation and disruption.
Matching his opponent's strength, and using his ability for the maximum benefit."
again an exposed soul is unnatural , so it will be negated , the context of the quoted part was cause soul could be considered unnatural cause magic uses them but touma does not destroy a person or the planet just cause they have them inside their body, but if someone modifies that like having a exposed soul it get's negated just fine (aka touma will not kill stand user if he touches them but it will negate the stand itself if he touches it instead), the quote in fact talk about touma shaking someone hand or touching the body
if touma is cut from the string of fate of would u be able to read his fate ?
precog works even for minute expression for the face or body too even ,diavolo looking at him could give away where it's gonna hit (not the first time touma fought invisible attaks) anyway here precog working dimensional arrow
"Devoting himself to evasion was meaningless.
His path threatened to waver, but he used the power of his will to desperately keep himself on course.
…The eighth shot overcame the restrictions of the third dimension.
Kamijou felt a static electricity-like spark on his spine and immediately swung his head to the side as hard as he could. An instant later, space suddenly split open and an arrow assaulted the world.
He focused on his trajectory."
for negation, it's called cancellation speed, but something being faster does not matter touma negates light speed attack fine when he touches them the problem is power
"That boy's right hand seemed to have the effect of negating any supernatural power. But, because of limits there were cases where massive powers that couldn't be negated completely ended up only blocked by the right hand. From what she had seen, Fiamma's special giant sword had taken a while before it was erased completely.
Normally speaking, being unable to negate something completely… should be a disadvantage for him.
But,
Just now, that teenager used that 'flaw' to deliberately grab a black wing he couldn't negate completely. Then twist the wing to make the attacker lose his balance, and create a small safe area when he was surrounded completely by the black wings.
Negation and disruption.
Matching his opponent's strength, and using his ability for the maximum benefit."
again an exposed soul is unnatural , so it will be negated , the context of the quoted part was cause soul could be considered unnatural cause magic uses them but touma does not destroy a person or the planet just cause they have them inside their body, but if someone modifies that like having a exposed soul it get's negated just fine (aka touma will not kill stand user if he touches them but it will negate the stand itself if he touches it instead), the quote in fact talk about touma shaking someone hand or touching the body
if touma is cut from the string of fate of would u be able to read his fate ?
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Touma was going to exorcise and negate Coronzon's existence with his right hand before she brought out the Eggs in his arm, so it's safe to say he can under certain circumstances.Chariot190 said:
Literally nothing you've posted matters in the long run since Diavolo is an ambush fighter and, even on the chance that he doesn't die on Touma sensing the presence of the Stand of negating it, Touma would likely flatten his face in in close combat right after the fact by himself. Diavolo is not that good in close-combat and even his Stands endurance is garbage and weak.
If Time Skip doesn't work on Touma, his precognition won't matter. It's also shown that Epitaph's precognition isn't 100% true as the results were turned against Metallica instead of doppio, which would easily happen to Diavolo himself over Touma.
Diavolo has no victory conditions based on the fact that Time Skip does not work, his main source of attacking and flanking the enemy is now gone. Keep in mind Diavolo doesn't have knowledge on Touma's ability either, so naturally he will try close combat and to flank only to find his efforts in vain regardless of his predictions. Touma's precog is the better one in this situation as it'll read his Stands presence and all of Diavolo's movements itself, as he has no means of restricting his body nor would he know about it.
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>guess u just skimmed to thought the wiki
Given I've read the Coronzon, Mana and Esper articles in full, not really no.
>precog works even for minute expression for the face or body too even ,diavolo looking at him could give away where it's gonna hit (not the first time touma fought invisible attaks) anyway here precog working dimensional arrow
Diavolo unironically has never actually been seen looking at his target directly when killing, wasnt facing Abbachio when he attacked him, was out of Bruno's view when he attacked him multiple times, even hiding behind pillars, wasnt looking at Giorno or GE when he attacked em, etc. tbh actually looking through it it's surprisingly uncommon for him to even be facing his opponents, it only happens a few times. Also Diavolo moving or looking =/= King Crimson moving or looking. Ya know, I somehow knew you were gonna quote that, and honestly, it aint as explicit as you're making it out to be, mostly because he felt it wether that be via precog, IR, or even just feeling the space begin to ear open, who knows, but if you want that on the profile make a CRT.
>for negation, it's called cancellation speed, but something being faster does not matter touma negates light speed attack fine when he touches them the problem is powe
Given time erase has no speed, it's instant and last 0 time, IB wont actually the chance to neg it as IB has a speed at which it cancels, which was the point, it's not that time erase is faster, it's that there's no time to actually negate it as it ends the exact moment it begins, also light speed aint impressive.
>again an exposed soul is unnatural , so it will be negated , the context of the quoted part was cause soul could be considered unnatural cause magic uses them but touma does not destroy a person or the planet just cause they have them inside their body, but if someone modifies that like having a exposed soul it get's negated just fine (aka touma will not kill stand user if he touches them but it will negate the stand itself if he touches it instead), the quote in fact talk about touma shaking someone hand or touching the body
Ok here's a question because you keep saying but that without any actual source, which leads me to believe it's just conjecture and not a stated fact. When in To Aru, is the distiction made between a soul inside the body being natural but the soul outside being supernatural? The quotes above, both of the mind you, state that he simply cant negate the life force or soul of someone and as such when he shakes someone's hand nothing happens, it isnt attributed to the soul being inside a body but the fact it's a soul in the first first place and as such exceptions exist to what Touma can negate.
>if touma is cut from the string of fate of would u be able to read his fate ?
Epitaph is basically like watchimg a frame by frame movie of the future, Touma will still do what was seen in the vision as that's literally what he's doing in the future, it's guranteed to happen, Epitaph just has the bonus effect of whatever happens in it to also be fated to happen as everyone is a metaphorical sleeping slave of fate. If Touma isnt bound by fate that's fine, that just mean he isnt fated to do those things, but that doesnt change the fact that Diavolo is still literally looking at the future, quite literally looking at as in watching it in real time, to see what Touma does. Touma resists the byproduct of Epitaph, which is honestly more than what most can say, but he's still susceptiple to being out precog'd given he isnt preventing his future actions.
Given I've read the Coronzon, Mana and Esper articles in full, not really no.
>precog works even for minute expression for the face or body too even ,diavolo looking at him could give away where it's gonna hit (not the first time touma fought invisible attaks) anyway here precog working dimensional arrow
Diavolo unironically has never actually been seen looking at his target directly when killing, wasnt facing Abbachio when he attacked him, was out of Bruno's view when he attacked him multiple times, even hiding behind pillars, wasnt looking at Giorno or GE when he attacked em, etc. tbh actually looking through it it's surprisingly uncommon for him to even be facing his opponents, it only happens a few times. Also Diavolo moving or looking =/= King Crimson moving or looking. Ya know, I somehow knew you were gonna quote that, and honestly, it aint as explicit as you're making it out to be, mostly because he felt it wether that be via precog, IR, or even just feeling the space begin to ear open, who knows, but if you want that on the profile make a CRT.
>for negation, it's called cancellation speed, but something being faster does not matter touma negates light speed attack fine when he touches them the problem is powe
Given time erase has no speed, it's instant and last 0 time, IB wont actually the chance to neg it as IB has a speed at which it cancels, which was the point, it's not that time erase is faster, it's that there's no time to actually negate it as it ends the exact moment it begins, also light speed aint impressive.
>again an exposed soul is unnatural , so it will be negated , the context of the quoted part was cause soul could be considered unnatural cause magic uses them but touma does not destroy a person or the planet just cause they have them inside their body, but if someone modifies that like having a exposed soul it get's negated just fine (aka touma will not kill stand user if he touches them but it will negate the stand itself if he touches it instead), the quote in fact talk about touma shaking someone hand or touching the body
Ok here's a question because you keep saying but that without any actual source, which leads me to believe it's just conjecture and not a stated fact. When in To Aru, is the distiction made between a soul inside the body being natural but the soul outside being supernatural? The quotes above, both of the mind you, state that he simply cant negate the life force or soul of someone and as such when he shakes someone's hand nothing happens, it isnt attributed to the soul being inside a body but the fact it's a soul in the first first place and as such exceptions exist to what Touma can negate.
>if touma is cut from the string of fate of would u be able to read his fate ?
Epitaph is basically like watchimg a frame by frame movie of the future, Touma will still do what was seen in the vision as that's literally what he's doing in the future, it's guranteed to happen, Epitaph just has the bonus effect of whatever happens in it to also be fated to happen as everyone is a metaphorical sleeping slave of fate. If Touma isnt bound by fate that's fine, that just mean he isnt fated to do those things, but that doesnt change the fact that Diavolo is still literally looking at the future, quite literally looking at as in watching it in real time, to see what Touma does. Touma resists the byproduct of Epitaph, which is honestly more than what most can say, but he's still susceptiple to being out precog'd given he isnt preventing his future actions.
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His stands endurance is garbage? How so? We don't use stand stats, it's never been severely damaged in any way either, on the contrary it's probably one of the strongest stands in the series.
Also they are 100%, what happened in the visions still happened as shown, but Doppio was smart enough to work around it in his favor, but he never escaped what was shown.
Also they are 100%, what happened in the visions still happened as shown, but Doppio was smart enough to work around it in his favor, but he never escaped what was shown.
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It doesn't matter what Epitaph see's as it's out of Diavolo's control. For all he knows he could be seeing his own defeat with no way of unturning it.
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It doesn't change anything else I said. King Crimson has never went straight up against another stand directly BECAUSE it has bad Endurance. Regardless of if you use Stats or not he's never once tried to Rush another stand both out of Diavolo's nature and out of lack of compatibility. You can choose to believe what you want but let's not toss headcanons out here.Bedroombedrock said:
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Uh, actually he can work around it? That's why Epitaph matters, because he's the only one seeing it and so he can make it turn in his favor. He should've saw his own defeat during the Metallica fight but he ended up winning it anyways
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And I already literally pointed out why he can't work around it. He literally has no idea what's going on and has no knowledge on Touma so he'll attempt to Time Skip, it won't Work, Touma will either touch his stand and kill him or Touch his stand and break his face in.Bedroombedrock said:
