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Diavolo vs Touma

No no he did look at the quotes I posted , Aisa was dead but he reassurected her (cause it was unnatural) it was not astral projection izzard ars magna does not work like that , he has a profile here that explains how it works

And he did negate time manipulation in nt 4 , based on holism gremlin made an area have different time and different law and have the effect of making easier to create conflict as the micro effect , he just entered the area and it's was negated and time distorted to keep up with the new changes (the concept of holism is quite complicated)

And while it's true he is bound to casualty and flow of time IB would negate any unnatural changes attempted directly
 
>No no he did look at the quotes I posted , Aisa was dead but he reassurected her (cause it was unnatural) it was not astral projection izzard ars magna does not work like that , he has a profile here that explains how it works

That's even worse than, he negated someone's ability, an ability that he had to directly touch the object effected in order to return it to its prior state. So not only is it actually worse than I thought but he needed direct contact with the body to negate this ability, but said ability is basically just subjective reality, not only that, the soul wasnt erased. It still existed, it just wasnt in the body. Touma aint touching erased time to revert it and your example isnt even negating the permanent erasure of a thing after it's already happened.

>And he did negate time manipulation in nt 4 , based on holism gremlin made an area have different time and different law and have the effect of making easier to create conflict as the micro effect , he just entered the area and it's was negated and time distorted to keep up with the new changes (the concept of holism is quite complicated)

So not at all like time erase as time erase is the abscene of time, not the changing and distortion of time. In fact that doesnt even seem like time manipulation, but rather, once again, subjective reality manipulation. According to that anyway.

>And while it's true he is bound to casualty and flow of time IB would negate any unnatural changes attempted directly

Which isnt what King Crimson does, if you somehow didnt pick up on that the few dozen times I've explicitly said King Crimson isnt effecting him directly but time itself, time as a whole, the universal concept known as time that Touma himself is shown incapable of breaking away from and is bound to the concep of cause and effect. IB is as well mind you despite its potency. Kinda like the numerous 3D characters with bullshittingly high physical stats on this site. If Touma is bound to casuality and the flow of time, then by virtue the act of erasing time and taking away the cause of effect is something Touma himself cant counter unless IB has shown the ability to negate things under the same or comparable circumstances.
 
Dude touma ressurected her not izzard why he would ressurect her if he just killed her , again did u look at the quotes I posted ?

"—Die." In that moment, his words made time stop. Stabbed to death. Strangled to death. Poisoned to death. Shot to death, sliced to death, bashed to death, publicly executed, crucified, incinerated, suffocated, crushed, run over, frozen, drowned, bombed. He compared it to every single way of killing he knew, and yet it didn't give him any insight as to the cause of Himegami's death. There were no wounds. There was no blood loss. There clearly wasn't sickness. She just died. It was just like her batteries had run out. If such a thing as a soul really existed, it was like it had been removed from her body, leaving an empty shell. She didn't even scream. Her body swayed heavily. It leaned backward, faceup—as if to show Kamijou her face—and she started to fall. Slowly. Slowly. Himegami's face began to come into sight."

"Somehow, he was able to grab her body with both hands just before she crumpled to the ground. Her body was extremely light...like something very important had fallen out of it. In his arms was the girl's body, strangely soft. But though weak, a pulse could definitely be felt...through the right hand he caught her with. "Wha...has your right hand annulled my Ars Magna?""

And no it's not a subjective reality thing , in the novel it's clearly explained if u Need i can Post It , holism is the opposite of the butterfly effect Accel even used it Vs coronzon

U know what , seem like we can't agree on the concept of time as a whole at this point we either wait for a mod to clear it up or we remaim at an enpass
 
Yeah?

From the profile.

Ars Magna (Ú╗äÚçæþÀ┤µêÉ (ÒéóÒâ½Òé╣´╝ØÒâ×Òé░Òâè) Ōgon Rensei (Arusu Maguna), lit. "Golden Training"): Ars Magna (Latin for Great Work) is a powerful form of alchemy in which an alchemist achieves their ultimate goal of creating a simulation of the world inside their mind. By changing that mental simulation with their thoughts they can drag those changes into the real world and overwrite reality, essentially making the user able to mold and control the real world with their thoughts. However, this spell requires great concentration for it to properly work, or else it may cause considerable unwanted effects. Because of this, Aureolus uses needles to stab himself with in the neck at regular intervals to clear his mind and allow him to concentrate. After attaining sufficient concentration, Izzard then verbally express a command (to focus more his thoughts in the desired effect) to initiate the effects that he desired, which initially tricked Touma and Stiyl into believing he was distorting reality through his words. The commands can range from simple words to complex phrases depending on the effect in question that he wishes to manifest. Of course, while Ars Magna allows him to materialize his very thoughts into reality, it does not actually enable Aureolus to alter (or undo in any way) the laws of reality, since it's ultimately based on a mental simulation of the real world and is subordinate to its laws.

Sounds like subjective reality to me, also Touma negated his ability, while his ability can induce death, he still negated the ability that induced said death, noth the actual death and most certainly not the erasure of the soul like you're trying to pass this off as. In your own quote he even says that it nulled Ars Magna, not the actual death itself.

Post it if you want, it still wouldnt translate to negating the abscene of time.

Which is odd given there's not exactly a way to have opinions on time, that isn't something you just formulate an opinion and try and suggest your opinion is regarded just as factual as the rest. Either you're right, or you're wrong, or you're a high-standing member of the scientific community proposing a hypothesis with various sources and justified conjecture. But yes, we're clearly at a disagreement and we've wasted enough time. Others can formulate their own opinion.
 
GUYS I WILL TRY WITH MY INTERPRETATION (TELL ME WHAT's MY FLAW OKAY :D)

"Diavolo doesnt effect or change reality, he just makes time cease existing a bit. He isnt changing anything"

@Malox1696 His point is right, partially. Huh also I forgot this (his) logic to add into my paradox logic thingy. I think I should revised my logic... From everything I have gathered...

Zero Interaction Partially? For some reason.

Time Skip Effective Against Imagine Breaker? For some reason.

Time Erase and Imagine Breaker Overlapped? Yes.

(TL;DR+Revised) Points are:

As I said before "creating a fire ball and throwing it by changing the reality" is just the effect of "Time Erasure between present and 10 seconds future, and its causality only in an instant" which is qualified as changing the reality partially since Dia is "clearly incapable of physically interacting with" Touma and around them.

Time Erase's effects changing the reality in an instant.

Touma is bound to the flow of time and cause and effect.

 
Guess black hole don't exist ?

Time is different for each single thing as it's distorted by mass, the time flow Is 1 yes but it would interact with everything (aka if u could magically skip 2 year in time an object near black hole would only speed up relative to the time y were), people like to to make time like a line or a film but it's not soo simple , same for time skip when he skip 10 sec it's relative to him and his current time or the moment he used it the first time the milky way would have gone everywhere together with all the galaxies
 
You're kinda extrapolating there Gumazon..

IB won't allow Touma to do anything in erased time because it can't negate it nor can it interact with it. It seems like you're trying to suggest Touma would still be able to move within erased time, he can't, not unless he can move in a void, on top of the half dozen things I've outlined already.

Your paradox theory doesn't work because there has to actually be a paradox in play, two contradictions that are both right yet are going against each other. That isn't the case, IB isn't able to negate it for the outlined reasons, it's only if he could and only then, does it become a paradox. Yet, unfortunately, Touma has limitations despite his insane potency, those limitiations are what would allow him to fail to negate time erase, especially because he isnt negating anything in the first place, as in the thing he has to negate is the literal abscene of something to negate.
 
"IB wont have time to negate it because time is gone." "He don't have time he can't create his own time" Basically, without time Touma he can't negate his nonexistent time but somehow IB negate this effects being not to remember the events.

>extrapolating

My knowledge is limited obviously.

Edit: I'm not knowledgeable about Void. I knew there are different types of Void just that I dunno about more deeper scienc-y about Void.
 
I don't know if it counts as void but he was fine in the black world created by othinus , nothing is there , In fact I ask how is touma even alwive in there as there should be no gravity air space atmosphere etc
 
Touma still able exist in world without time. Like malox says, he still survive in world created by othinus where no time exist (basicaly nothing in this world but them). Also, othinus basically reality wrappers which is stronger ability than diavolo time skip. Why do you think Diavolo ability will work?
 
Because said thing he was able to walk around in doesn't qualify for a true void and we have strict limitations on the concept. It's the same reason why DBZ and Pokemon characters (the human ones) arent infinite speed and the like, every other instance of Touma merely existing contradicts the proposed feat.

I explained why I think it would work, numerous times, learn to read. It has nothing to do with potency or what is stronger, if that was the case Touma wouldn't even such faulty limitations on things like being incapable of properly distoring continuoes effects or attacks, the dude has limitations even if the potency is high, such limitations or lack of evidence suggests he is incapable of negating time erase, especially due to his nature, if you can't even be bothered to read the thread and want me to repeat myself for the umptenth time than unfortunately, I'm not going to do that.
 
Well yes it is a stomp no matter which argument is right, I though at this point we were discussing how would the 2 ability interact
 
Either he does or doesn't. There is no inbetween. Either time gets deleted or it doesn't. If time gets deleted than he's prey to the effects of the time erase, that or he has infinite speed.

This ain't like time stop where if you resist it you can just walk around in it like normal, its far more abstract.
 
I don't believe you decide that.

Touma doesn't get affected by supernatural effects that affect an area he is in, regardless if they are negated as a whole or not.

I don't see how really.
 
Neither do you. But rather his showings do. Of which he's lacking the required showings to suggest he could, which is odd given you'd think he would given his other ludicrous showings.

It doesn't matter if he gets effected or not, even if he could negate it. The issue is when has Touma ever negated something that doesn't exist, the lack of something and all while time, something he must follow, is gone. Both he and IB would have to have some form of acausality to begin with, they don't, so they're both bound by causality. And given Time Erase is over the moment it begins, quite literally, Touma and IB won't ever get the chance to negate the effect in the first place plus time erase isn't even effecting him but unlike other cases where he managed to negate or withstand aoe effects and the like, he kinda still had the whole concept of time and causality in play allowing him to do so, plus said things were changes to something or something that exists, not the case here.

What do you mean you don't see how? Even if he could move, time itself is still gone, he needs infinite speed to move while time doesn't exist. So even if, for some inconcievable reason he could move, he'd still need the speed to move like that. Once again, this isn't time stop, the very concept of time as a whole is straight up gone.
 
tbh I don't disagree.

At least, till Diavolo's own AP gets sorted out, at least then wether or not he can or can't negate it wouldn't matter, we could still have a ******* memeworthy fight of him and Doppio in cqc.
 
Lacking? I fail to see what is lacking. Angel Fall wasn't stopped but he wasn't affected, despite it merely affecting the soul to swap the soul of everyone across the planet. Or being completely unaffected Vento's curse. At no point does Othinus show she can affect him by the changing of Phases, unlike literally everyone else, just the surroundings.

Time is lacking because of a supernatural effect, which he wouldn't be affected by, simple as that. Erasing time is a change, not sure what you are talking about. The fact it is over by the time is done doesn't change the fact that it has a beginning and an end, the process was just erased.

Simple, why would his time get erased? You could just say it does not. Acausality? The actual nonsense are you talking about? By that logic people with infinite should have added abilities by being able to breath and move through stopped air molecules and see with stopped light molecules. Those are some weird assumptions.
 
>Lacking? I fail to see what is lacking. Angel Fall wasn't stopped but he wasn't affected, despite it merely affecting the soul to swap the soul of everyone across the planet. Or being completely unaffected Vento's curse. At no point does Othinus show she can affect him by the changing of Phases, unlike literally everyone else, just the surroundings.

Because those things aren't even remotely comparable? That should've been obvious from the start. Cool he's immune to direct effects onto himself, we already knew that. But yes, lacking, he has to be able to negate something that never happened, doesnt exist, something he cant interact with, something that isnt directly effecting him, something that isnt changing anything but rather the lack of said thing, on top of effecting/negating causuality after it's already transpired (this is a big one), or to be specific, the lack of it transpiring as well as being able to move while time itself doesn't exist.

>Time is lacking because of a supernatural effect, which he wouldn't be affected by, simple as that. Erasing time is a change, not sure what you are talking about. The fact it is over by the time is done doesn't change the fact that it has a beginning and an end, the process was just erased.

The action of erasing time is a supernatural effect, you could argue that time missing is a supernatural effect but again, irrelevant, time itself is gone, erased, he's bound to time, ergo if he can't negate time erase as a whole then he himself will be effected by it as he's effected by wether or not time exists or doesn't exist. Your last sentence is false, there is no beginning or end, it is, quite literally, over the exact moment it began. To the point the moments can even overlap, see Bruno hitting himself. There is no time, beginning or end, it's an effect that's faster than instantaneous.

>Simple, why would his time get erased? You could just say it does not. Acausality? The actual nonsense are you talking about? By that logic people with infinite should have added abilities by being able to breath and move through stopped air molecules and see with stopped light molecules. Those are some weird assumptions.

Not simple, it's the very opposite of simple, it's why this was even a conversation to begin with. And no, you can't just say he wouldn't, not how things work, or even how time erase works. King Crimson erases time as a whole, not everyone's individual time, which isn't even a thing. He ain't manually erasing everyone's time, hell the assumption that everyone has their own time is baseless and not at all how King Crimson or time works. If time is gone it's gone, if touma isn't acausal then he's bound to time, ergo if time is gone and he ain't acasual nor is his IB then he's effected, not directly, but rather that's just how time and causality functions, coupled that with the above requirements not being met that being incapable of negating something that doesn't exist nor being able to move while time is gone, even if he himself could still hypothetically move. For one making the claim of someone spouting nonsence, I find it very odd that was your own segway to do the very same, nobody mentioned breathable air or stopped light particles, that's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Also pretty sure there are profiles that have things like that added for those reasons so your point, whatever point that was supposed to be isn't even completely sound. But no, if he can't negate the time erase as a whole then he either has to be able to move in erased time (as such needing infinite speed or something given he aint acausal), the ability to actually negate something that doesn't exist, the ability to negate it as a whole (given he's failed to do so prior in his own verse, yeah), or IB not being bound by causality and just going lol no and then ignoring the c&e effects, but given he nor it is acausal, then ain't happening.
 
>By that logic people with infinite should have added abilities by being able to breath and move through stopped air molecules and see with stopped light molecules. Those are some weird assumptions.

Infinite speed doesn't magically make those things vanish fyi. Especially when said characters aren't always moving at said speed. (Plus as said, pretty sure we give self-sustenance to those who live or can move around in true voids).
 
Well angel fall is not really a direct effect to swap soul , it directly changes the law of the world and position hierarchy , then soul get swapped cause the law get soo messed up , like trying to mess with the code of a computer without the right knowledge
 
I'm not knowledgeable about Angel Fall but afaik from Malox1696 and LSirLancelotDuLacl, and since Touma's profile never explained Angel Fall, wtf, Angel Fall is directly a law manipulation, and afaik "trying to mess with the code of a computer without the right knowledge" is just too common in fiction (after all I read stories have the glitch-esque villains) it's not surprising of someone wanted to take over the world (Dio Over Heaven).

Then what the difference of causality "changes" between nonexistent causality of "Time Erasure" and law manipulating causality of "Angel Fall"?

(Also I never finished watching JJBA Eyes of Heaven, and I've heard Dio Over Heaven overwritten the law and reality, and resurrecting his fallen acolytes and brainwashing new ones from other timelines to serve as his army and absorbing the soul or rewrite them by one punch and also I heard Dio Over Heaven has massive PIS. Also I wonder what would happen Diavolo vs Dio Over Heaven (rules: Diavolo should punch him once to win) cuz Jotaro punch him in the head with his time stop, but seems there's rivalry between two fans of Dio & Jotaro vs Diavolo.)

Also afaik I've heard Othinus could just remove Touma's matter to transfer Dragon to another vessel, and I dunno what to think, and because of this then I thought did Touma resist Existence Erasure without even affecting Dragon? (Suddenly I thought of Dio Over Heaven vs Touma, cuz Dio Over Heaven have Existence Erasure, and Power Nullification they both have)
 
Angel fall is not an attack spell and was not used by any characters in the to aru page cause it was used by a non combat character so it's not here but it is mentioned in touma profile


Othinus can't remove touma matters to change IB (not dragon) container , she can kill him and IB eventually would pass to something else as IB it's not touma in born ability and more of a rule of the world , she could kill him in various way tho as phase manipulation can bypass IB if used by indirect changes or things that don't target IB too (collide galaxies at him , break the atoms bonds that hold him together, cut his head , change the world so he is space ,etc)


IB does resist existence erasure tho as none of the mgs can remove it, even if destroyed by raw power it will come back (either magical or normal, like big magic explosion or chuck the arm in the incinerator)


if u wnat to know more about phases i can make a quick explanation : u can treat them like dimensions but they are not higher on lower, they are like layers of an art program like photoshop , each layer doesn't interact with each other but the picture changes with overlap of those layers and same as Photoshop the top layer is the more important one , IB can't negate those changes cause they are not on the same layer (IB is basically the erase tool but only for the layer it's on), unless u have the right knowledge then u can use IB to erase the layer themself
 
we already come to the conclusion that whichever arguments is right it will end in a stomp, we are just arguing how would the 2 abilities interact at this point
 
let's clear this miss conception about stomp, miss math and inconclusive

inconclusive: when votes are equal and both arguments have valid reason leading to a 50/50 chance

If both sides have equivalent posts with constructive arguments, the thread shall be deemed inconclusive. (from the rule page)

miss match: when there is not fight as their ability don't interact well vs each other (like a ghost vs a pure physical opponent nobody can do anything to each other)

stomp: when one of the character has no win condition or the other has 0 lose condition

btw guys i found king crimson in index gg diavolo

" He was not about to approach that curtain that was shut tight and fluttering slightly from the movement within. After all, it scared him. A lot. With his misfortune, that makeshift dressing room was a serious threat. What would happen if the curtain rails fell from the ceiling and exposed the person changing within? He could not hope to nimbly dodge out of the way in this reindeer costume and his right hand was covered by that mitten-like glove. Plus, this was Academy City's #3, aka the Railgun. There was no surviving a "kyah, pervert!" attack when it packed the same punch as a battleship's gun.

(Yeah, best to give this one a wide berth.)

With that, he safely slipped past the dressing room and opened the door to the unisex bathroom.

His memories vanished after that.

All he could remember was the color red.

The next thing he knew, he was lying in the hallway.

"???"

He truly had no idea what had happened.

There were clear gaps in the film of his memories.

He had simply found himself lying on his back "

KONO DIAVOLO DA
 
ignoring the fact you gave literally zero context and just posted a out of context snippet of text assuming everyone would understand what is happening. If I'm reading this right it confirms that it would work on Touma, not the opposite. Given I'm like 90% sure whoever is in that text failed to react to the, what I'm assuming is a time skip (otherwise I dont know why you'd be posting it) and even had their memories gone from the skipped time. Although time skip and time erase still aint the same power, they're functionally the same though even if mechanically they are not.

That or it isn't Touma or a time erase in which case you need to give way better context or I dont know why you're posting that if it isnt the same ability.
 
dude that was a jk by the author , he tend to reference jojo (stand in general, dio,etc),in this case king crimson, it was quite obvs it was a comedic sketch

i thought it was clear when i said kono diavolo da
 
I took it as you found a character in To Aru that is basically the equilavent of Diavolo. As said, there wasn't any context. Was also wondering why Touma was wearing a costume.
 
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