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Diavolo vs Touma

It only once changing reality via Time Erasure between present and 10 seconds future, and its causality only in an instant. It's paradox, creating a stream of fire by moving beyond time but creating a fire ball and throwing it by changing the reality.
 
>fate Immunity + his own precog

Uh, you do know fate immunity doesnt stop Epitaph right? It just means he's not fated to those actions, Diavolo can still see what he's doing in the future in spite of that. And his own precog is garbage and doesnt actually help against other precog's. Not saying it again, if you disagree with the profile itself, make a CRT, right now, or drop it.
 
I mean for diavolo , during the time he is in the time skip doe s he need to emate the power constantly or is it a fire and forget thing ?

Edit on guys u seem to misunderstanding, I don't mean what effect time skip had , I literally mean "does the stand constantly emates the power to skip time for tot second or doe he just activate it once and it will work for tot seconds ?"
 
idk, both? Not that it matters here given time literally doesnt exist, as far as the universe and realitity itself is concerned, time skip never actually happened.
 
Unstoppable Object passed through Immovable Object rather than interacting each other thus both wouldn't contradict each other

^ this/my logic still working tho
 
1 it can't be both 2 it matters cause if it's a fire and forget IB would negate the whole.effext on the universe making time skip impossible

If instead is a continuous thing that stand always emanates during the effect and has sufficient reapplication or energy Regenerationn then it would still skip for the universe but not touma , unless the raw Regenerationn or power are equal to what he can't negate

Speed is irrelevant, cancellation speed refers to the maxxim unit of power IB can nagate in a certain amount of time (similar to how when u move a file if the size it's big but Ur ram is slow it takes time ) the problem are for raw output or a constant stream of power higher than the maximum negation rate
 
I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say. Time erase isnt something Touma is even interacting with. If anything it's the absence of something to interact with.
 
Ok, I actually cant understand what you're saying, why the hell are we talking about fire balls, application of energy, continuous effect, etc. Do you not understand what time erase means. There is no time, there is no anything for that matter and time erase technically never even happens. There's nothing to negate, no time to negate it, no nothing. It's over, quite literally, the exact same moment it begins.

I'm actually have extreme difficulty reading your posts, please proof read that shit.

>Speed is irrelevant, cancellation speed refers to the maxxim unit of power IB can nagate in a certain amount of time (similar to how when u move a fire if the size it's big but Ur ram I slow it takes time )

Which not only contradicts his profile but also doesnt even matter in this context. Hell if what you're saying is true why the hell is Touma even High 1-C when accoding to you he'd have trouble negating things like a Kamehameha and the like, almost everything you say contradicts the profile, wether it be good or bad for him.
 
Chariot190 said:
Ok, I actually cant understand what you're saying, why the hell are we talking about fire balls, application of energy, continuous effect, etc. Do you not understand what time erase means. There is no time, there is no anything for that matter and time erase technically never even happens. There's nothing to negate, no time to negate it, no nothing. It's over, quite literally, the exact same moment it begins.

I'm actually have extreme difficulty reading your posts, please proof read that shit.

>Speed is irrelevant, cancellation speed refers to the maxxim unit of power IB can nagate in a certain amount of time (similar to how when u move a fire if the size it's big but Ur ram I slow it takes time )

Which not only contradicts his profile but also doesnt even matter in this context. Hell if what you're saying is true why the hell is Touma even High 1-C when accoding to you he'd have trouble negating things like a Kamehameha and the like, almost everything you say contradicts the profile, wether it be good or bad for him.
Click to expand...
yes it has problem negating kamehaha , it has problem in universe at doing that , for example he can negate reality warping universe busting spear but can't negate a constant supernatural laser beam with just the right output, that's what it means by surpassing the negation speed, although I guess it should be called rate , that was established from volume 1

Btw u do not seem to get my point , the stand has to use its power to affect the universe right ? Then it would need to affect IB too to stop it's time right ? But IB would negate said power so the activation even if it's instant would be negated before the time skip ,u do understand that

And I'm not contradiction anything on the profile the 2 example given of stuff that he can't negate are Innocentius or accelerator wings both are regenerating or high raw power abilities nothing about speed or anything, u Just took negation speed too literally
 
That's pretty huge weakness the profile seems to be missing then, the more you talk the more you contradict it. I suggest making a CRT if it's truly that oudated.

You right, I don't get your point, your point is based on a clear lack of understanding of what actually happens, or to be exact, lack of, when Diavolo uses time skip. He doesnt effect Touma, he effects time itself, and it isnt time stop, or even time skip. It's time erase. Time doesnt exist, there is nothing for Touma to interact with, there is no time in which to interact with. It's literally the absence of something to interact with and the thing he would have to negate never actually happens as time doesnt exist. You're acting like time erase is something that lasts a bit or something, it aint. It, by definition, never actually happens and it isnt something to even interact with as it's the abscene of something to interact with. Plus still gonna assume IB needs time to actually negate something otherwise not even the continuous effect would be a issue for it.
 
Weaknesses: Despite being able to negate more powerful attacks, Imagine Breaker can have issues negating powers that are able to regenerate or are receiving a constant supply of power if they are faster than its canceling speed

It's even again mentioned in the ability section did u even read it ? also cannot "completely" negate something if it surpasses its canceling speed such as Stiyl's Innocentius or Accelerator's Dark Wings,

I know what happens I know the meme, I know he removes that part of time and Anyone But him realize it and can act during it , time skip last for diavolo tho , and I'm talking about the act before he erases time u know , he has to use his stand power to affect the universe and then remove the time, then IB would negate it before it has any effect

It would make no sense for IB to not the negate it before it has any effect , for example accel vector field reverse direction of anything instantly , by Ur logic IB would be pushed back before negating it , same reason for magic that would have affected his right hand
 
Yeah, except it kinda lacks the mentioning of clarifying what the hell a negation speed is. The very fact it's negation speed contradicts your claims, the ability section describes it as the abilities overcoming it's negation speed. Speed, things that are faster Also if it has such issues canceling things that are recieving a constant supply of power I doubt he'd even be able to perma cancel half the thing's he's been stated to in matches. Also yes, I did read the profile, it's why I've literally quoted the exact things you just pointed out and even pointed out his precog doesnt worj the way you said it does.

The meme? You're joking right? I actually hope you're joking because if your intell comes from misinformed memes than we have a real issue here. Also you didnt describe it right. Time itself doesnt exist, ony Diavolo can act because he keeps time. Also not how it works or Stand Powers in general. There is no activation period for time erase, it's instant and using his Stand power? The Stand power is the time erase. IB cant negate it before it takes effect as it's instant, doesnt actually effect Touma and IB cant negate it as time erase never actually happens as reality perceives it, it's a lack of something, an abscene of something to actually interact with.
 
>It would make no sense for IB to not the negate it before it has any effect , for example accel vector field reverse direction of anything instantly , by Ur logic IB would be pushed back before negating it , same reason for magic that would have affected his right hand

Except there is literally no time for IB to be able to negate it before the act of time erase happens. Also no, Accel's vector's arent instant, it's just real god damn fast, but not quite literally instant. IB has to also interact with it to negate before hand, which obviously aint gonna happen given there's no time for it to actually do that, there's no activation, there's no actual timeframe of when the time erase happens. And it really seems that you dont understand what's happening, Touma would have never even interacted with time erase to begin with. Hell, unless he can retroactively negate things, you could even argue the act of him negating time skip itself doesnt exist.
 
If your argument is "Touma never fought time erase" then "Diavolo never stopped H1C power null". Touma was never affected by Angel Fall, an event that changed the elements laws across our world and Heaven, and RW in the way KC works should be easy to null, since he is erasing something that should not be erased, which isn't the same as Phase Hax, which fully rewrites how the world work, and even IB can null it, it's just harder.
 
Lmao wtf arguments guys?!

Hmm... Wait a second Touma never fought a Time Erase opponent and wait there's more he can't move beyond time (after reading his profile) so that Touma could only do is nulling the effects being not to remember the events is the only thing could work against Dia within Time Skip.

Why not agree with my paradox logic *sad noises* ("sad noises" is a joke)

Erasing Time is still too similar to Time Skip but ppl loves to call Dia's ability a Time Skip instead of Time Erase.
 
>If your argument is "Touma never fought time erase" then "Diavolo never stopped H1C power null", Touma was never affected by Angel Fall, an event that changed the elements laws across our world and Heaven. And RW in the way KC works should be easy to null, since he is erasing something that should not be erased, which isn't the as Phase Hax, which fully rewrites how the world work, and even then IB can null ot, it's just harder.

Diavolo isnt changing anything, nor effecting anything and IB cant negate what literally doesnt exist. You're hilariously misinterpreting what time erase actually is. Cool, IB nulled something that isnt even remotely comparable or functionally the same as time erase, but unlike time erase that thing actually allows Touma to negate it. Time Erase doesnt, it's an instant thing that never actually happens because it doesnt exist. The actual question is, why are we assuming Touma can negate something when he's shown limitations on things that Time Erase beats out in instantaneous effect as well as there not being anything for Touma to negate in the first place.
 
Being instantaneous, it doesn't matter, since IB is passive, Diavolo can activate the power, but it will not affect Touma, like anyother Reality Warping power that don't rewrite completely how the World should be.
 
The activation is instant, the actual effect is more than that, it isnt anything. It does not exist, it never happened. Has Touma ever negated smething that never actually happened? IB being oassive doesnt matter, one could even argue that that the act of using IB doesnt matter because the action of him doing so is, ironically circumvented by him never actually doing so.

Touma would have to be able to negate something that never happened, doesnt exist, all while the very act of IB negating is hit some cause & effect fuckery making it so he never negated anything while within the erased time. So let me ask, yes Touma can negate some extremely high end things, that's not the issue, the issue is a mechanical one. Has he ever been shown to negate things that never happened or dont exist, all while time itself, something both he and IB are bound to, doesnt exist?
 
Also dont know why youre comparing wide scale reality warping with time erase. Not even the same thing in the slightest.
 
@XDragnoir It actually matters. It's paradox, creating a stream of fire by moving beyond time but creating a fire ball and throwing it by changing the reality. @Malox1696 said "1 it can't be both 2 it matters cause if it's a fire and forget IB would negate the whole.effext on the universe making time skip impossible"

Why not agree with my paradox logic, again. :(
 
Again I'm talking before the time is erased the activation would simply not succeed , even if it's instant cause he already negated instant activation reality warping , u can keep saying time get erased but if he can't activate the stand power how does he do it ?

Limitations on IB are CLEARLY explained, had are not a problem it's just raw energy, and saying since a beats b and c beat a so c beats b is non sequitur,

If u mean has he shown negating a large scale Instant reality warp, then yes angel fall, that unlike time skip was a constant spell so he negates only the effect for him , such spell swapped the soul and Body of people plus their appearance touma was totally unaffected, then there is teleportation which is instant and would affect the space (so like time) but both esper and magician (even of high lvl) can't directly teleport him, this are all effects cut before the activation not during it , cause the moment something supernatural tries to effect IB be it esper power or magic or stand power it gets negated before the activation, another clear example is misaka as she can't reality warp the area he is touching
 
He cant negate something that he has zero interaction with. Actually why the hell am I going through this with you again, put bluntly, you dont have the slightest clue on what time erase even is let alone how it works or what it means in a general sense of the word. Not withstanding Touma cant negate a thought based power that never actually happens that he cant interact with, made even worse that there's nothing for him to interact with to begin with. How does he do it? By literally thinking, it's thought based. Do you not know what a Stand power is? You act like Stand powers is the Stand itself, it isnt if that is what you think.

Nobody even said since A beat B, etc, what are you actually talking about? Reading your posts is actually becoming painful. Learn some spelling and proper grammar, I dont even know what youre trying to say half the time.

You mean the thing we aleady went through like two posts above your own? Cool, not explaining it again, not how it works, not remotely comparable, not even mechanically similiar. Touma and IB also lack the feats to even suggest he can negate something that doesnt exist or never happened. Also your teleport example is something directly effecting Touma so it's a false analogy as well, King Crimson isnt effecting Touma, he's effecting time itself, or rather, the lack of time.
 
Hope u do know time is not some kind of line u pull cut stop right ? Time like space is relative , to affect the time of something u have to affect it , there is no higher dimension where with a big timeline , that's why it's universal in the first place cause it's affect the flow of time of everything

Btw has diavolo shown to bipas power negation with his powers ? Since u Say it's a mechanical issue and said IB never shown interactions with something that does not exist u wouldn't be soo hypocrite to say it wouldn't count if we swapped places right ?

IB already has shown to work on mass reality warping on the lvl of diavolo even undoing phase shift if used in ceartin way , now since u asked all the proof u wanted i ask , has diavolo ever shown to resist power negation on this lvl ?
 
Ok english please. Also, time is literally a higher dimension. Doesnt mean much given Touma can negate things higher than time, butthat isnt the issue here and you seem to be incapable of understanding that. Diavolo effecting time isnt him effecting Touma, time is a natural concept he's clearly incapable of physically interacting with, Touma doesnt have his own time, that isnt how time works, Touma is bound to the flow of time and cause and effect but not every single thing in existence have their own time, and given Touma isnt always negating time, the conversation should've honestly ended there, and before you bring something like lol time stop, time stop is the stopping of time (clearly), time erase is the abscene of, something Touma has nothing going for him in that regard. Also actually, why arent you proof reading your posts? I had to waste like three minutes trying to decipher that paragraph and even then I still dont know what you're going on about in the first sentence.

Doesnt need to, the burden of proof is on you to prove IB can negate something that doesnt exist, didnt happen, doesnt effect him and all while time doesnt exist, given both he and IB are bound by time, and to an extent cause and effect. 1-C or not, it has limititations and we cant assume it'll work on something so asbstract when clearly, Touma lacks the evidence to suggest he can, especially given his nature.

And thank you for proving my point, you have literally no idea what Diavolo does do you? Diavolo doesnt warp reality, he doesnt even change anything, he's not effecting anything other than time itself, which is something Touma and IB is bound to, ergo, neither can negate something when that thing is the literal abscene of the very thing they're bound to and have to follow. Otherwise Touma would have several forms acausality among other things. IB cant negate shit in this very specific instance because there's literally nothing to negate and the thing he has to negate not only isnt effecting him but is rather the abscene of the very thing he must abide by.
 
Saying time manipulation is not reality warping is like saying heat manipulation is not reality warping , they are cause they warp reality

>So abstract as time Touma can neagte manipulation of the 11th dimensions that is just as abstract or fate and luck which again are other abstract things

Btw time is not an higher dimension it's on the same plane as the 3rd
 
No offense but you have it super ass backwards. Reality Warping can lead to those effects or abilities but they arent the same. Not withstanding not all reality warping is the same and literally has zero bearings on my above statements. Touma can negate reality warping, yes, we know he can, that means nothing given the outlined problems above. It's completely irrelevant. Not to mention Diavolo doesnt even warp reality, he's basically the cut tool on a video editor.

Also Touma nulling 11D things aint the same given he was capable of interacting with said things, was given a chance to do so and isnt negating something that doesnt exist or didnt happen, all while he himself is bound to the abscene of the thing he's trying to negate. Touma can definitely null time based powers if given the chance, the issue isnt that he's trying to null a time based power, it's that he's trying to negate a time based power that tehnically doesnt even happen, doesnt effect him but rather time itself, all while he himself is bound to cause and effect and the flow of time, which doesnt exist. I can see him negating changes in the timeline, or things like that, maybe even time stop given time stop is just pausing time but time is still a thing. But negating the abscene of it? Well that's a lot more dubious given things I've explained like ten times.
 
It's still warping reality as in the meaning , he is not abbaiding by the law of physic unless u want to tell me cutting part of time is normal physic
 
No, it's time erase, not reality warping. Diavolo doesnt effect or change reality, he just makes time cease existing a bit. He isnt changing anything, as you said further above to be a preresquite, but rather just the lack of it.

Touma's example of negating reality warping isnt comparable at all, also him negating it isnt even the issue, well it is but not the first issue you should be trying to counter. The first line of things before we get to that is, when has Touma ever negated something retroactively or something that doesnt exist? Here's an example, if say someone vaporized a brick, could Touma negate the act the brick being vaporized despite having nothing to interact with and while the brick doesnt exist any more on top of the brick not even being Touma himself? I doubt it given Touma cant negate the effects abilities have on things other than him, only being able to negate powers if he touches it directly or if the powers effect him or something he's touching, he cant bring the brick back after it already happened. A brick is honestly a bad example given time is way more abstract and Touma aint bound to the flow of a brick, unlike time. And unlike the brick example nothing exists in that moment as that moment doesnt exist.
 
Chariot190 said:
No, it's time erase, not reality warping. Diavolo doesnt effect or change reality, he just makes time cease existing a bit. He isnt changing anything, as you said further above to be a preresquite, but rather just the lack of it.
Click to expand...
Pepega


Thas what is defined by reality warping , did u even read the page u linked , u are not following the law of physic u are altering the law u are altering reality so it's called reality warping, it may be limited but u are still effectivly doing something not possible by the current set of law

More specifically in this case is in the sub set of manipulation in the sub set of time
 
Oh? Throwing around insults now? I'd recommened learning how to spell first and foremost before throwing around such degrading insults, you come off as hilariously hypocritical and lacking self awareness. And are you really resorting to cherry picking? Do you not have a proper rebuttal?

I did read it, it's why I linked it in the first place, I wasn't aware you considered every single ability in exiistence as reality warping though. it seems you don't grasp the concept of not all reality warping being the same, reality warping can lead to such abilities but isnt said abilities, the fact Touma didnt negate a form of reality warping that would suggest he can negate time erase, Touma can negate what he's shown to be able to negate, the reality warping he negated didnt erase time or do anything similiar to it thus we have no reason to believe negating that translates to negating time erase plus the fact that time erase is something that all evidence suggests Touma can not negate as he lacks feats (as odd as that sounds coming from a a ******* 1-C character, you'd think he would have at least statements confirming he can overcome the things needed here but I guess he doesn't), lacks any and all showings dictating he can negate something he must follow, something that dosnt exist and something that never actually happened. This isnt a matter of how cool and potent his negation is, we know it's ******* insanely good, the issue is how's he gonna negate something that isn't effecting him, all while time, something he must follow, doesn't exist all while negating something that never actually happened.

You can cherry pick specific pieces of my posts, but burden's on you to provide evidence for the three, possibly 4, qualifications that Touma must overcome to be able to negate time erase given by his very nature and showings, he should be incapable of doing such a thing, in spite of his extreme potency.


Anyway, when are we adding reality warping to every fire, ice and temp user that has a profile?
 
Now, if you want this topic to cease, it's easy, show an explicit example of Touma negating something that never happened, doesnt exist, something he cant interact with, something that isnt directly effecting him, something that isnt changing anything but rather the lack of said thing, on top of effecting/negating causuality after it's already transpired, or to be specific, the lack of it transpiring. Also him negating an ability that directly effects time in such a state that otherwise he would be incapable of action (just so we know he can effect time, even if that other things still need to be proven on top of that).
 
Not every ability , just the ones that break physics , example wolverine is not reality manipulation , it's just speed up Regenerationn

Yes they are reality warper limited reality warper but specifically the manipulator not all the users tho , for the sake of convenience we don't define them as limited reality warper for heat manipulation only towards warm temperatures, and just define it as fire manipulation


Btw how did I insult u ?
 
Well, Touman did negate Othinus Gugnir. You know every MG has probability manip and fate manip.
 
You literally, and I quote, Saying time manipulation is not reality warping is like saying heat manipulation is not reality warping , they are cause they warp reality

You, in your own words, defined heat manipulation as reality warping. Hell wasn't aware humanity cracked open the power to reality warping with the invention of the oven. That was sarcasm. You're being way to loose in your definitions to suit your point. And you the first user, I've ever seen, on any site that thinks like that.

And even then, as said above, Touma can negate what he's shown to be able to negate, the reality warping he negated didnt erase time or do anything similiar to it thus we have no reason to believe negating that translates to negating time erase .

If someone negates someone making someone ******* explode or matter manipulation via reality warping, then they can negate explosions (possibly transmutation) and matter manipulation, but only those and not say, physics or law manipulation. Touma negated reality warping yes, but nothing that would even slightly suggest that that specific reality warping would translate into negating the abscene of time.

So to say it again. if you want this topic to cease, it's easy, show an explicit example of Touma negating something that never happened, doesnt exist, something he cant interact with, something that isnt directly effecting him, something that isnt changing anything but rather the lack of said thing, on top of effecting/negating causuality after it's already transpired, or to be specific, the lack of it transpiring. Also him negating an ability that directly effects time in such a state that otherwise he would be incapable of action (just so we know he can effect time, even if that other things still need to be proven on top of that).

Either proves that Touma can overcome those limits or cease at once, this has gone on long enough, his potency or tiering doesnt even matter here given the above limitations or lack of showings that would suggest that he can negate. If he can overcome those limitations than yes, he could negate it given his IB's potency, but if he cant overcome the above then he cant negate regardless of said potency.

Also do you even know what Pepega means? It's often used as a insult. It's basically twicth for calling someone an ironic rtard.
 
Eganergo said:
Well, Touman did negate Othinus Gugnir. You know every MG has probability manip and fate manip. </div>
Click to expand...
Yeah that's fine, King Crimson aint either though, It's the lack of something, something Touma hasnt been shown without. We already established Touma can negate fate, so that's all good and probability isnt relevent at all. Also nice avi.
 
Oh come on please do tell me how we human can directly change temperature of a certain space with just our mind


So u are asking me to show in the novel that he fought and negated diavolo ? Cause those are very specific and uneresonable , but individually he did some of the thing u listed (negated lacks of life/soul, interacts with fate ,dimension and time , negates indirect effect as along as they are not natural consequences)


(This is like saying that Dio can't stop time of aliens or frog man cause they are not in JoJo universe and so they have to be proven that time stop would work on them, this just an example not to be taken literally but u get the point )
 
Good thing that wasn't what I said. Reading comprehension is key. Hell it wasnt even what you said, you said the change of temp is reality warping, well, I guess stoves are reality warpers now, which is what I said to point out how blatantly false that is. Would explain the hype around Sir Ovens.

No, I'm asking you to show me where he did and overcame those exact qualifiers that Listed. Yes they're very specific, yes, even a bit unreasonable, but that's what's needed to prove he can negate time erase. Of which literally none of the examples you just listed are examples to what I asked evidence for. Nothing you've said even suggests that he can. Plus it still appears that you still don't grasp what time erase actually entails. Touma never negated a lack of a soul or life, he negated an astral projection. And said soul and life still existed, they just weren't in that location. He doesnt interact with fate, he just negates the blessings of gods onto him. I could go on, your exampls aren't actualexamples of what's needed and fate=/=Time. Even your claims of saying he can negate time I find dubious given I havent seen any instance of him instantly negating a ability that effects time as a whole, looking it up, I dont even think To Aru has something as basic as time stop.

So I'll say it again, if Touma hasnt explicily shown the ability to negate something that literally doesnt exist (at all mind you, straight up wiped from existence), something he cant interact with, something that isnt directly effecting him, something that isnt changing anything but rather the lack of said thing, on top of effecting/negating causuality after it's already transpired, or to be specific, the lack of it transpiring. Also him negating an ability that directly effects time in such a state that otherwise he would be incapable of actio. All while factoring in Touma is bound to causality and the flow of time.

Another false anaology on your end, Dio doesnt stop the time of others, he stops time itself, as a whole, the 4D construct. If those beings aren't acausal then time stop would work because due to not being acausal they're bound to time as a whole on a universal scale. So unless they have infinite speed, acasual or exist in a void or have shown otherwise then time stop is fair game. Now if said aliens had infinite speed or things to suggest they arent inhibited by the flow of time then yes, Dio wold need sufficient evidence to prove that his time stop would inhibit the aliens.
 
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