Devil May Cry: Potential Upgrades (God-Tiers)

[WindGodAcheron]

Being short and straightforward - Devil May Cry was recently upgraded to 3-A based off of Argosax's feat of fusing the universe with the Demon World, but I believe I have found some evidence to suggest that spacetime was being affected and distorted as well, which could potentially upgrade the God-Tiers to "3-A, possibly Low 2-C" (no at least)

So, ´Dante's Mission 14. This is the mission where we actually see Argosax's distortions happen on-screen, with the sky turning red, clouds starting to spin extremely rapidly, the moon moving even faster and starting to eclipse the Sun out of nowhere, and the entire area being bent out of shape and completely rearranged by the distortions caused by the incoming Demon World.

The guidepost for this mission states the following:

• "Four lights will open the door to the future and the past."

Now, you might be thinking that this is extremely vague evidence. Indeed, by itself it is. Let me explain the context now.

What does this mean? This is a reference to the objective for the mission. Basically, due to the distortions, escaping the city or getting anywhere at all is completely impossible. It's literally completely warped. So you have to activate four orbs to activate a portal leading you out of the area.

You might be thinking: "if that's the case, then this is poetic language to refer to the fact that you're advancing on your quest, right?"

Not quite. Checking the guidebook lore entry on the Mission, we find:

• "The power of the demon world can warp the minds of men and stop the hands of time. In the time between seconds, reality is not what it seems. ... Four lights will open the door to the future and the past."

So we already have confirmation that time is being distorted by the approaching Demon World, being both massively slowed and stopped altogether throughout. So this already helps put it in better context. But let's proceed:

• To reach the future, one must be willing to open the door to the past.

• After its dismal failures in the previous game, the Phantom has been granted yet another chance by the forces of darkness and time paradox to challenge the Son of Sparda once agai

Phantom, an enemy from the past, emerges. It is stated that the reason why he is back is because of a temporal paradox created by the "dark forces" (ie. the distortions), with the header outright mentioning a "gateway to the past." After going through the portal, Dante is led to Arius's palace, which is located on the same city, and said palace is also shown to be heavily distorted by the approaching Demon World.,

I feel that the above evidence all together implies that the fabric of time is itself being distorted by Argosax's powers, to the point where the future and the past are being fused together in certain areas (such as on the outskirts of the city), and overall being massively slowed and stopped by the distortions.

Therefore, I believe anyone on The Despair Embodied's level and up would be upgraded to "3-A, possibly Low 2-C". Overall this would affect:

• Prime Sparda

• Mundus

• Argosax (Despair Embodied)

• Urizen/Vergil

• Dante

• Nero

I know Argosax's Chaos form was the one with the feat of merging the worlds, but the distortions mentioned above were caused by the Demon World's approach itself, and The Despair Embodied was the one that showed passive control over said distortions, so The Chaos would only scale to 3-A via the physical merging.

This would also help with the Sealed Sparda scaling.

 

[CrimsonStarFallen]

Interesting. You should ask Kep to come here.

Following.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Looks good IMO. Let's see if others have anything to say though.

 

[Dienomite22]

Honestly seems pretty solid and has my support for now.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

looks promising and solid, but want to hear others in case before getting fully in on this one.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

I am in agreement with this.

Additionally, we should regulate the scaling. Maybe we should create a key for Sparda while his powers are sealed.

From what I'm seeing, Argosax the Chaos remains a flat 3-A, and so do Sealed Sparda and Bolverk. Makes sense.

Argosax Despair Embodied and everyone else in the "Upper" God-Tier sphere would receive a "3-A, possibly Low 2-C", since Argosax Despair Embodied was passively sustaining those distortions.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

Quick, someome post the "ah shit, here we go again"

 

[GinDan]

Very interesting

 

[LightinAnt]

Affecting Space-Time or warping it, doesn't count as Low 2-C. Besides it is really too vague to imply that Argosax merged Timelines

 

[Dienomite22]

Merging timelines isn't the argument here.Affecting the past and future is what is implied to be happening if I'm not mistaken.

 

[LightinAnt]

Okay and how is that related to AP? OP uses the Space-Time waping of Argosax as an argument for an AP feat, which it isn't unless more evidence is shown. This is too vague for my taste

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Argosax is already 3-A for merging the two universes into one. If space-time itself is affected and distorted by the merger, that would be textbook Low 2-C.

 

[LightinAnt]

The Chaos only managed to merge the physical universes, the distortions were an aftereffect by the Demon world. Again how is this Low 2-C?

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

...Because he was maintaining those distortions passively in his Despair Embodied form. Literally in the OP.

 

[LightinAnt]

Yeah but him having control over the distortions is just Space-Time hax, like i said above. The merging was just of the physical universes and the initial distortions were caused by the Demon World

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

He didn't have control over them. He literally maintained them into existence passively. Unless you want to revise the wiki's standards on this, warping space and time on such a scale is a Low 2-C feat.

 

[Dienomite22]

Yeah but him having control over the distortions is just Space-Time hax, like i said above. The merging was just of the physical universes and the initial distortions were caused by the Demon World

If he had control over the distortions that would be low 2-C.The distortions were affecting the past and future and was happening on a universal level.

 

[DarkGrath]

I've mentioned on the prior thread that I agree with the arguments here, and I still think it all seems pretty solid.

 

[LightinAnt]

Merging physical universes is just 3-A. Merging the Universes+their Space-Time is Low 2-C.. It would be AP if you could merge Timelines. otherwise its just Space-Time manipulation

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

> Warping Space-Time on a Universal scale isn't AP

Make a revision for our standards, because it currently is

 

[LightinAnt]

Warping something doesn't automatically give you AP to it, destroying a Space-Time is what you're confusing it with.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

> Warping something doesn't give you AP to it

Uh, dude...yes, we do. Since time immemorial.

I consulted with staff members on Discord before I sent my agreement.

The wiki currently treats warping something of a certain size as equivalent o its AP. And warping space and time on a universal scale is treated as Low 2-C.

 

[LightinAnt]

>Uh, dude...yes, we do. Since time immemorial.

Weird since nothing mentions what you're saying anywhere on the tiering or attack potency page.

 

[LightinAnt]

From my point of view and what the OP is showing is that the distortions were a chain reaction caused by the merging of the physical planes and Argosax managed to maintain said distortions, i don't see how this gives him Low 2-C

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

The Triforce from Zelda is 4-B for warping a realm of that size, just to throw a popular example out there.

 

[LightinAnt]

Yeah but that example is definitive as it literally turned one place into another. Its a different thing maintainig distortions in space-time not created by you

 

[LightinAnt]

That's more of a creation feat by the way

 

[DarkGrath]

Uhh... creation feats are also AP.

 

[LightinAnt]

Yeah the Zelda feat is a creation feat, that was my comment to it. Argosax didn't create a seperate space-time or merged space-time by himself

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

Whether the distortions were created by him or not is completely irrelevant. Maintaining a universal-wide timespace distortion is the exact same thing, if not more impressive, as creating something doesn't mean it will vanish upon your death, and maintaining it passively actually implies your body can sustain that much energy being expended every second ontop of your other actions. That's why passive feats are considered more impressive than outright waving your hand and the magic happening.

 

[LightinAnt]

Having control over Space-Time on an Universal scale is not AP unless you can do something with it, i.e merging Timelines, destroying Timelines, creating Timelines. Argosax having control over the distortions thus giving him AP, is like making someone Building level for fixing or making holes in a house, unless he literally merged the timelines on his own accord i don't see how this tranlates to him being low 2-C

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Well, a universal being warping space-time on a universal scale would, from my perspective, be worth a 'possibly' Low 2-C key. Low 2-C refers to destroying or creating the space-time of a universe-sized 4-D construct, right? Well, Argosax, based on this evidence, didn't only merge two universes but also warped space-time on a universal scale passively.

If he can do that with the mere presence of his power then I think Possibly Low 2-C is fairly logical.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

He literally sustains the distortions. It is no different from creating them aside from being more impressive. And again, it is "possibly Low 2-C" for a reason, instead of a definite Low 2-C.

 

[LightinAnt]

So everyone who is 3-A and has Space-Time manipulation automatically becomes low 2-C? This seems highly illogical

 

[CryoTheMayo]

If you can warp the fabric of time and space on a universal scale, when your AP is already easily 3-A from merging two universes together? Then, yeah. That seems pretty logical to me. From what is being said in this thread, Argosax is doing that casually. If he can warp the space-time of an entire universe passively then it's reasonable to note that he is possibly Low 2-C.

 

[ParadoxIndifferent]

So everyone who is 3-A and has Space-Time manipulation automatically becomes low 2-C? This seems highly illogical

If said 3-A can distort space and time on a universal scale, then yes. Otherwise, no.

 

[LightinAnt]

@Paradox

How is maintainig space-time distortions more impressive than creating a timeline?

@Cryo

It's a different thing warping an entire timeline, than just warping space-time distortions

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

eh only two cents i have is he affecting both? I thought 2 universe merge was 2-C? Idk...but this seems ok from what ik i guess? Will just wait for input and hide via mid term card

 

[DarkGrath]

eh only two cents i have is he affecting both? I thought 2 universe merge was 2-C? Idk...but this seems ok from what ik i guess? Will just wait for input and hide via mid term card </div>

It would only be considered 2-C if it was explictly merging two separate time-space continuums. I argued a little while back for 2-C with evidence to suggest that they were separate time-space continuums, but overall the disagreement of people like Kepe led to that not really going anywhere. I agreed I might continue that debate at a later date, since the evidence I've found so far along with extra information about space-time interaction would seemingly at least warrant a "Possibly 2-C" rating. Still, we'll focus on that at a later date; that's not the main argument here.

 

[DarkGrath]

And yes, when it comes to this thread, I still completely agree with Paradox. His arguments have made perfect sense thus far, the feat in question definitely seems to reflect a Low 2-C rating, and in general Paradox has always been one of the best researchers in DMC threads.