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Devil May Cry Discussion Thread 12: Dante's Awakening

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After reading everything they have written in my absence and reading the part of Abigail with a Sercan power to that of Mundus.

and if abigail is not comparable to mundus but to the evil god the first king of hell? that might fit because think trish said that Abigail had a level comparable to that of the demon king perhaps referred to the Evil God and before he says it makes no sense since trish does not know the Evil God but trish knew demons as legendary as sparda it would be Machiavelli which I compare by saying that if Sparda is the best swordsman in the underworld then Machiavelli would be the best gunsmith in the underworld, what would Machiavelli say he wasn't a mundus worker? well yes but the disappearance and possibly it was for Sparda since one of his creations terrified would be found in the Temen-Ni-Gru and mundus when he discovered that the children of Sparda lived had not created a trish so there is a possibility that trish would have investigated the evil god as machiavelli or mundus told him.
 
Why did you give Dante a definite Low 2-C rating?

For nothing, actually, I just wanted only one rating, and Low 2-C is cool

However, I see many characters that have higher with X even in other Keys (Like Gilgamesh for example), so I think Dante and people who have Devil Trigger should have a "3-A, possibly Low 2-C, higher with Devil Trigger"
 
Okay Darku-chan, some things that I want to point

First, excellent job ma boi, the CRT looks great

Second, I think we agree that this statement: "the stability of the Demon World would be at risk" can also be 4-A considering it could mean that Nightmare can shake the Demon World with his power, right ? So going by a conservative view, I think it's better if we take him as "At least 4-A, likely 3-A", unless you guys think he already have enough background to be just 3-A, I'm neutral, but we have statements for both Tiers

The 4-A calc

Another version of it

And this also helps the God Tiers, since they are muuuuch more powerful than Nightamre who's already stronger than baseline by being capable of destroying a Universe larger than ours, if we take him as just 3-A

Third, I also added the Anime explanation, since this will upgrade Anime Dante and Sid, and there's a lot to cover about the Anime, Second Novel and DMC2
 
Going to heavily disagree with DMC1 Dante without Sparda's power being 3-A.
 
Nightmare's statements are super vague.

There's no proof the statements refer to literally destroying the Demon World. Could just as easily be referring to destroying demonkind as a whole, instead of their actual world.

Hell, the "stability" statement pretty much says so.

Not only that, this is a major outlier for Dante at this point in time and it breaks the powerscaling completely. Devil May Cry 3 Dante is 7-B, so what gives this massive increase in power from what amounts to killing off fodder? Sparda's powers unlocked the dormant potential hidden inside Dante, so that's why his base form in DMC2 is so much stronger and can receive this rating without it being an outlier. But him being anywhere near Tier 3 prior to that is a complete no.
 
If it's just about demonkind, what demons he can defeat and what he can't ? Because Beastheads and Bolverk can be on Nightmare's list, and they are 3-A

The CRT also explains about the stability thing, I believe it will be better if we talk about this after DarkGrath is done
 
They may or may not be.

Bolverk's vague lore points to him being some major Demon who served Argosax at some point, so including him would require making assumptions, as we know next to nothing about him.

The Beastheads by themselves are weak, so even if it included them (which is fair enough, since they were created by Mundus, just like Nightmare), it wouldn't make him 3-A. What's fearsome about the Beastheads is their ability to grant people amazing power - and Nightmare can't scale to that either, because Chen managed to make DMC2 Dante put out actual effort when he was amped by them, meaning Chen must be superior to Void Mundus, who is obviously superior to Nightmare.
 
The kanji translated as "stability" is Õ«ëÕ«Ü. It also means "balance" or "equilibrium". You can see examples of its usage here.

So that stuff about "structural stability" is false. The statement is almost certainly talking about the stability of its inhabitants, not of the actual dimension.

In fact, check the wording on the Manga statement:

  • "Its power can lay waste even to the Demon World"
The meaning of laying waste to something is "devastating" something. Take the example of two enemy countries waging war and laying waste to their respective territories by dropping bombs and shit.

It never refers to blowing something up in the literal sense.
 
Alright. At the very least, we've gotten clarification on the "stability" point. With that in mind, it might actually be more reasonable to say that all of the previous statements so far are purely referring to hierarchal stability, rather than physical destruction, in which case I'd say Kepe is correct.

I would argue that the authorial intent here is pretty clear. While it is not much in terms of evidence in itself, it's quite clear from the way that all these statements have been depicted that the intention was for Nightmare to be strong enough to actually destroy the demon world, rather than the convoluted lines of logic we've come to otherwise. Even so, Kepe still has a point. Pure authorial intent is almost never accepted as evidence for a character's statistics, even when it is completely obvious (barring WoG statements, of course). As just one example, Garfield had his FTL rating removed despite his statement in one of his comics that he was "faster than the dark", because he wouldn't have had to be FTL for the feat he performed. It was incredibly obvious that the point in that comic was for Garfield to be faster than light, but that's just because of the authorial intent being quite clear, so it's not acceptable.

I'm still going to leave the CRT open for editing, and I will continue to edit it if any new information comes to light. Even so, Kepe is quite reasonable here.
 
I don't think Nightmare's statements are vague. With the rough translations we're given you see them talk about Nightmare's power which is referred to as "infinite" and say something to the effect of "if Nightmare keeps releasing it's infinite power, the stability of the demon world will shake/waver/fluctuate etc." or this automatically means it's refering to power and nothing hirarchal since it's in the context of Nightmare's literal power being released over and over being the cause of the shaking.

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Nightmare

It is not known if there is an inorganic existence to follow instructions from the emperor just mechanically, and it is possible to shake even the stability of the demon world if it keeps releasing the power which can be said that it is infinite, and it is this that it was said that it is a failure work above. 'The impatience devil will be arranged with nightmare in the restraint pattern (restraint tool to suppress runaway) set'.

"Nightmare.

This is the reason why it is said to be an inorganic existence (unknown whether there is a will) that performs merely a mechanical command of the demon emperor, and the stability of the Makai might be wavering if it keeps releasing the power which can be said to be infinite, and it was said that it was a failure in the above. 'The impatient demon emperor will be placed in a restraint pattern (restraint to suppress the runaway) set with nightmare."

"Nightmare.

An inorganic entity that mechanically commands the Demon Empire (it is unknown if there is an intention), and if you continue to release its infinite power, even the stability of the Makai may fluctuate. The imperial Demon Empire will be placed in a restraint pattern (restraint tool to prevent runaway) set together with Nightmare, he has the power to destroy the demon world"

Even if this quote is not accepted the other one still points to pure destruction though ,once again, this is based off the translations from this thread.According to this translation, Nightmare was created with the intention of invading the Human World and purely destruction but Mundus being a big dumb, created a monster that was entirely too strong and difficult to control so it didn't work as intended (which is a running theme with all of the Nightmares created by Mundus) and was a threat to the demon world itself enough that it could destroy the demon world according to the description and Dante's own words being "Honestly it would be nice if the demon world runs away and the demon world itself is destroyed." This is obviously not refering to anything hirearchal and it wouldn't make sense for Dante to joke about letting Nightmare go to the demon world and destroy the hirearchal structure verses Dante letting Nightmare go to the demon world and literally destroy it.

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"Nightmare It is a living weapon and a senior devil created by the Emperor with the intention of invading the human world. However, because it was made for the purpose of destruction only, it was difficult to control and even the magic world could be destroyed, and Mundus who felt impatient with this decided to use it only within the boundary of the crest that would be a restraining garment. In the shape of a slime with a lot of bones floating, you take your opponent into your body and fly to the nightmare space. In order to give damage, it is necessary to activate the surrounding barrier device and make the main body appear. However, even if the main body appears, the defense instinct increases, handling weapon attacks such as missiles and beams, and transforming parts of the body into spears and boomerangs to attack. In addition, Dante commented in the above strategy book, "Honestly it would be nice if the demon world runs away and the demon world itself is destroyed."

Once again this is all based on the translations given in this thread, it would be better to find more translators and get a better idea about what is being stated here and the context but, based on what we have now, these quotes can't be taken as hirearchal.Also, the "Its power can lay waste even to the Demon World" quote is vague enough that it can also refer to actual destruction aswell which seems to be the case as of right now.
 
@Dienomite: You could maybe ask Shiro or Sleepy for a translation on them? Although Sleepy's around very rarely but it might be worth a shot if you do ask him but I'd go to Shiro if you need to ask for more TL confirmation.
 
What you think it's saying; "If it keeps releasing its power, the stability of the Demon World would be at risk".

What it's actually saying; "If its power were to be unrestrained (ie, if it were allowed to run free), the stability of the Demon World would be at risk".
 
If anything, I'd say that the author blatantly intends for Nightmare not to be anywhere near the level of power proposed here.
 
@Kepekley23

All of what I said is based off the translations above so that's the interpretations I'm using for now unless you're getting your translation from someone or something that is well with Japanese and is accurate, if so please provide a full translation of the 2 quotes, it would make things go more smoothly and nice.

There are people that don't agree with Kamiya's authorial intent either nor believe DMC is anything above 7-B so I don't know if the author's intention would matter here though the authors intends for Nightmare to be extremely powerful compared to the other generals and according to Dante,Griffon and Mundus's words even when disregarding tiering or VS related stuff.
 
Qliphoth Bacikal said:
@Dienomite: You could maybe ask Shiro or Sleepy for a translation on them? Although Sleepy's around very rarely but it might be worth a shot if you do ask him but I'd go to Shiro if you need to ask for more TL confirmation.
Click to expand...
I've sent a message to both
 
SleepyTBubble's translation of one of the quotes.Thanks again Sleepy.

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  • Inorganic existence that follows the orders of the Demon Emperor like a machine (It is unknown if it has a consciousness). If it continues to release its infinite power, the stability of the Demon World may shake. Because of this, the Demon Emperor arranged Nightmare in a restraint pattern to prevent it from going out of control
I tweaked the last bit, but it should be accurate

I'd get the other part later on, quite a bit tired (Pulled off an all nighter for 3 on going days...good job me ;/ )

Though i can confirm you the second quote talks about Nightmare being originally made to invade the human world only that because it was made for destruction only, controlling it was difficult alongside the fact it would destroy the Demon World (ÕêÂÕ¥íÕø░ÚøúÒüºÚ¡öþòîÒüÖÒéëµ╗àÒü╝ÒüùÒüïÒü¡Òü¬ÒüäÕ¡ÿÕ£¿ÒüºÒüéÒéè)

The second paragraph is just all about gameplay mechanics i think, with the last quote being Dante joking about how it would have been great if it just went on to destroy the demon world on its own"
 
Well, that doesn't seems to be about hierarchy if you ask me, specially with "may shake" instead of "may be at risk"

But it isn't 3-A
 
Infinite power can grant High 3-A in some cases and shaking a universe is 4-A. The last 2 paragraphs in Sleepy's reply imply 3-A but it's best to wait on the rest of the translation to know for sure.
 
Yeah, I was talking only about the Stability statement only

However, I still believe that if this is accepted, it should be "At least 4-A, likely 3-A/Higher" or something like that
 
Do you have identified the feat of mundus destroying the island malet? to improve the ap of dante dmc1? Well, I think it's a better feat for the Dante, rather than the Griffon Storm.if nightmare's statements are not accepted.
 
I don't think we can scale Mallet to Dante

Also, the Island being about to explode was going to actually be dangerous, that's why we have to exit the Island in time, right ?

However, the scale of that explosion was 6-C but the energy that resides in the Island that was released can be far higher, so that's not an necessary anti feat for Dante
 
I never thought the island destruction would ever be an anti feat. It's unknown if it would kill him and all Dante says during its destruction is "look around, there's nowhere to go. This will be your grave as well" or something along those lines which doesn't directly translate to can't survive the explosion and could just mean Dante and Mundus would finish one another off and kill each other. And yea, as Dante said the energy that resides in the island is most likely far higher than 6-C since Mundus passively maintains it's existence, reality warps locations, distorts time and moves the entire island to began with.

Dante wanting to escape the island before it explodes is likely just because he doesn't want to have an island explode on his head.
 
I believe that with this appearance of Dante DMC1 you can put a better image to your profile that you believe?
 
DMC1 mission 15 ending, Trish teleported, moved liked a lightning or something.

DMC1 mission 16 random lazer 1 eye lesser lightning demon does the same before fighting Dante but not before initiating a thurderstorm (I think Blitz did the same in DMC4).
 
Lol they literally said that Dante in DMC2 had a easy job, stomped Argosax so hard that he didn't even remembered him, and the novel even stated that Dante's powers were able to defeat Mundus, but we all know that it was actually the Sparda Sword, which makes me think: they are actually talking about the second novel, which is nice

Also, Dante apparently always carries Cerberus since is a good counter against Fire which many demons can use

And Balrog is at least 7-B for being stronger than Lucia, and was training to defeat Argosax, but he literally gave up against Dante
 
Extrasensory Perception for Nero with DB

"And the Devil's Hand (Devil Bringer in the game) had one feature: it pulsed in response to manifestations of demonic power. Nero looked at his hand to make sure that it was not a (his arm lights up if it's a demon close to him) demon who had come to him. And if he really were, the hand would have definitely reacted."

We've know he always had this but it's just more of confirmation and it strangely it isn't on his profile
 
The Balrog immediately responded to this causticity. His voice was stifled, like all demons. - Have you finally arrived? Lucia frowned. "Have you been waiting for us?"

- Waited. Sooner or later, someone would come. To end me" Balrog explained, and moved on towards Dante. The earth shook.

Lucia bent her knees a bit, getting ready for an attack, but Dante didn't even move - he stood, straightening up to his full height, and looked at Balrog.

Could be flavor text but pointing it out just in case, still reading it and will post more if something pops up.
 
Reading through Morrison's chapters so far in BTN, everything that happened in the DMC1 novel is literally mentioned here but from the perspective of Morrison and Grue's children who all didn't know about Gilver or demonic involvement with the incidents. Will keep reading.
 
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