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Devil May Cry Discussion Thread 12: Dante's Awakening

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Can we edit the profile of dante saying he likely surpasses his father when he fought void mundus. When Nico states it's either SDT dante surpasses Sparda or equals him. It's basically a retcon of the power scaling regards to the sons of spardas power.
 
Damn you, KoS... Been busy with Persona threads, didn't get here in time to make this thread.

also, don't call me Grath. AogiriKira already decided my official name is Darku-chan
 
I'm really curious about that statement on Nightmare's power. On one hand, that sounds like a 3-A feat at least. On the other, it seriously needs some context. Like, was it explicitly stating that it could destroy the entire demon world? Or all of the demons in the demon world? Or just generally cause a lot of damage to the demon world?
 
Well, again, that's still a bit vague. It doesn't tell us if it means it could destroy the actual physical space in the demon world, or it's inhabitants, or anything like that. At an absolute minimum, I'd say that would make Nightmare in DMC1 far, far superior to any other major demons in the game (other than Mundus, mind you). Might be cause for an upgrade, if DMC1 Dante can beat Nightmare, who can "devastate the demon world" (which would likely mean Griffon + every other demon up to a certain point), then DMC1 Dante should be far, far superior to Griffon. This is evidenced by the gameplay, where every time he fights Griffon it's a casual stomp. I might make a CRT about this, but is there any input anyone would have straight away?
 
Maxnumb231 said:
Can we edit the profile of dante saying he likely surpasses his father when he fought void mundus. When Nico states it's either SDT dante surpasses Sparda or equals him. It's basically a retcon of the power scaling regards to the sons of spardas power.
Click to expand...
Nico is not necessarily a reliable source. While her experience with demon's definitely makes her a good source, but when her word contradicts the explicit scaling chain and information we've been provided thus far, her word is far less reliable.
 
Nico is not necessarily a reliable source. While her experience with demon's definitely makes her a good source, but when her word contradicts the explicit scaling chain and information we've been provided thus far, her word is far less reliable.

Wouldnt that make it a retcon if it was contradicted? Cuz theres ton of retcons within DMC even DMC5 novel contradicts what the game has shown.
 
@DarkGrath: Pretty much. There's nothing more said about it other than that and putting something like Mundus fearing its power enough to restrain it even tho that was the very power he wanted amongst his subordinates.

I myself also find it complexing since, as I said in the last talk thread, that statement can be taken in a lot of ways in terms of context.
 
I understand what you mean. I'm not saying retcons are impossible. What I'm saying is that her word contradicts the scaling chain and the information we've seen from more reliable sources. Between either...

1: Nico is correct, and this is a retcon

Or

2: Nico is incorrect, and she was mistaken

The evidence suggesting the current scaling chain outweighs simply her word, so the second option is far more likely.

By the way, I'm currently heading to a job interview. I won't be able to respond for a little while.
 
I'm back y'all. I'll make that CRT.
 
By the way, who would scale to Nightmare's statement? DMC1 Base Dante comes to mind, and so does Nelo Angelo, would anyone else?
 
It's been stated that Dante can control/stop his aging, he just refuses to because growing older makes him feel more human.
 
Has anyone actually put together an official Low 2-C scaling chain for the DMC cast? I don't remember if a full scaling chain for all the Low 2-C characters was ever created.

If not, I'm curious about starting work on it myself. I just want to know if I'd be wasting my time. XD
 
Tree>Fruit>Mundus=The Despair>Void>Sparda=>DMC2 Dante>DMC4 Dante=>DMC5 Dante>Urizen>Urizen 1 month>Urizen PF>Dante=Vergil>Sin Devil Triggers

Something like that
 
Well, I can go a lot more specific, and a lot more detailed than that. Again, I just want to know if this has been done already. I'll look into doing it anyway, just so that Versus Matches with their Low 2-C variants and other verses can be easier to compare.
 
Here's what I've come up with (likely has a few kinks, seems a bit odd to look at, will fix up if needed later)

Magnitude Guide (Mostly based off of Solacis' Persona Scaling Chain Blog):

0 = Roughly comparable.

1 = Difficult, but decisive victory.

2 = Easy decisive victory.

3 = Effortless/Borderline stomp.

4 = Stomp.

5+ = One-shot.

?> = Higher, but otherwise unknown

Note that this scaling chain is assuming each character is at the peak of their strength for each key (so very casual stomps may be upgraded to one-shot's, for example). Also, someone will not get the "unknown" category if we have a rough idea of their strength, only if it's completely unknown or just a possibility.

Scaling Chain for God-Tiers:

SDT Dante = SDT Vergil = DMC5 Nero >>> Post-Fruit Urizen > Pre-Fruit Urizen >>>>> Early-Game DMC5 Dante ?> DMC4 Dante ?> DMC2 Dante >>>> Void Mundus = Sparda = DMC1 Dante (w/Sparda) > Mundus = Abigail = The Despair Embodied >> Baseline Low 2-C
 
DarkGrath said:
Here's what I've come up with (likely has a few kinks, seems a bit odd to look at, will fix up if needed later)

Magnitude Guide (Mostly based off of Solacis' Persona Scaling Chain Blog):

0 = Roughly comparable.

1 = Difficult, but decisive victory.

2 = Easy decisive victory.

3 = Effortless/Borderline stomp.

4 = Stomp.

5+ = One-shot.

?> = Higher, but otherwise unknown

Note that this scaling chain is assuming each character is at the peak of their strength for each key (so very casual stomps may be upgraded to one-shot's, for example). Also, someone will not get the "unknown" category if we have a rough idea of their strength, only if it's completely unknown or just a possibility.

Scaling Chain for God-Tiers:

SDT Dante = SDT Vergil = DMC5 Nero >>> Post-Fruit Urizen > Pre-Fruit Urizen >>>>> Early-Game DMC5 Dante ?> DMC4 Dante ?> DMC2 Dante >>>> Void Mundus = Sparda = DMC1 Dante (w/Sparda) > Mundus = Abigail = The Despair Embodied >> Baseline Low 2-C
Click to expand...
Why is abigail fhat high? IIRC the statements tells us he rivals that of mundus.
 
The only thing I disagree with that list is Vergil being equal to Nero when history has shown when vergil or dante gets tired or fought for long at full power their strength is lesser than they are fully fresh. So I dont agree with Nero= Vergil at all
 
What do you mean? Abigail is one of the lowest characters on there, and he's just considered roughly equal to Mundus. He's not that high.
 
Also, while I do agree that Vergil and Dante are slightly stronger than Nero, remember that "=" in this context isn't perfectly exact. It just means "roughly comparable". I'm fine with putting maybe a ">" difference between Vergil and Nero (so, Vergil > Nero) but I'm not sure if the gap between them justifies that.
 
We now know that the Tree can fuse the worlds which can be 3-A/Low 2-C

The fruit is stronger than the tree

Mundus ate the fruit + the powers he already had before this By the verses rules, DT DMC2 Dante one shots Argosax and Void Mundus, since we saw in the anime that Base Dante was comparable to Abigail, but DT Dante instantly one shoted him

So the scalling using The Drak Grath scale of wins is:

Tree is > Baseline

Fruit > 1 < Tree

Base Mundus > 1 < Fruit

Base Mundus > 0 < Argosax

Sparda DT Dante > 1 < Base Mundus and Argosax

Void Mundus > 1 < Argosax

Base DMC2 Dante > 4 < Void Mundus and Argosax

DT DMC2 Dante > 5 < Void Mundus and Argosax

DMC4 Dante > At least 0 < DMC2 Dante

DMC5 Dante > At least 0 < DMC4 Dante

Base Urizen > lol < Base DMC5 Dante

Base Urizen > 4 to 5 < DT DMC5 Dante

Post 1 Month Urizen > Likely 1 < Base Urizen

Awakened Dante > 2 to 3 < Post 1 Month Urizen

Awakened Dante > 1 < Post Fruit Urizen

Awakened Dante > 0 < Revived Vergil

Nero was the most motivated of the three and wasn't tired like Dante and Vergil, so I think...

Awakened Dante and Revived Vergil > 1 < Devil Trigger Nero
 
That seems reasonable to me! I'll edit my previous scaling chain soon to reflect that.
 
Can someone show me the scan of DMC2 stating Dante has surpassed sparda or scans of statements dante surpassing sparda.
 
I don't remember where the statement was, but even without it it's pretty easy to figure it out. Sparda's strongest feat was defeating Mundus, with no indication of how much effort it took. Void Mundus is stated to be stronger than Mundus, and Dante completely stomped Void Mundus.
 
DarkGrath said:
I don't remember where the statement was, but even without it it's pretty easy to figure it out. Sparda's strongest feat was defeating Mundus, with no indication of how much effort it took. Void Mundus is stated to be stronger than Mundus, and Dante completely stomped Void Mundus.
Click to expand...
Well dmc5 did state that sparda took on the demon king and his army alone by himself then sealed the gate between 2 worlds. Although the sparda scaling is kind of silly because the devs keeps saying SDT maybe stronger than sparda
 
When did the developers say that SDT is "maybe stronger than Sparda"? All I remember was that quote from Nico about Awakened Dante "maybe surpassing Sparda himself", and Nico is not necessarily a reliable source all on her own.

Also, this is one case where even WoG would be quite questionable. Sparda being at all comparable to Late Game DMC5 Dante completely contradicts everything on the scaling chain. At the absolute most you could argue that fighting "Mundus and his armies" would make him significantly stronger than Mundus. Definitely not comparable to SDT Dante.
 
Also I'm just looking for the quote "dante surpassed those that are before him" people claim they came from dmc2
 
DarkGrath said:
When did the developers say that SDT is "maybe stronger than Sparda"? All I remember was that quote from Nico about Awakened Dante "maybe surpassing Sparda himself", and Nico is not necessarily a reliable source all on her own.

Also, this is one case where even WoG would be quite questionable. Sparda being at all comparable to Late Game DMC5 Dante completely contradicts everything on the scaling chain. At the absolute most you could argue that fighting "Mundus and his armies" would make him significantly stronger than Mundus. Definitely not comparable to SDT Dante.
Click to expand...
Well someone told me that her other statememts regards to characters have been accurate so she wouldn't be unreliable in that regard
 
Not when her word contradicts the established logic of the series. Again, even WoG is considered dubious when it contradicts what we explicitly see.

Also, it's extremely unlikely she could be considered a reliable source here. Even she admits in her character files that almost everything she's saying is speculation, and this is despite directly meeting and interacting with some of the demons she makes files on. All we have about Sparda are literally stories from thousands of years past, and even Dante has demonstrated on past occasions not knowing much about him. Despite Nico's experience in dealing with and speculating on demons, there is no information she could have about Sparda that any regular person couldn't get.

Also, what character statements of hers are considered reliable anyway? Again, she herself in many of the reports states that she's simply speculating. There is no reason to trust her word on the matter when even WoG would be questionable here.
 
It wouldn't be a "war" if Sparda was comparable to Awakened Dante, since he would literally one shot Mundus and everyone else without any effort
 
Its during the final mision, before facing argosax

I dont remember specifically in that fight but do u have it or someone?
 
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