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Devil May Cry Abilities (No statistics revisions)

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"Although impervious even to volcanic fire, the frosts are weak to higher realms of incendiary. Use the hellfire of Ifrit to counter them."

This just means tat the frosts are immune to volcanic fire, but "are weak to higher realms of incendiary". In other words, any heat higher than volcanic fire can **** them up. This debunks the whole "colder than Absolute Zero" nonsense.
 
But it doesn't specify how much hotter. It states they're impervious to lava, which establishes that they are at least cold enough for that, but it still doesn't specify how much hotter it has to be. It is saying that while they're impervious to lava, they are still vulnerable to heat provided it's hot enough, with lava being an example of heat that is not sufficient.

For a parallel, Dio is more or less impervious to fire, but is still weak to the higher realm of incendiary that is the lava that almost killed Kars, and would also be weak to the higher level of incendiary that is the sun. Ifrit being referred to as a higher level of incendiary doesn't necessarily mean it's even comparable to the temperature of lava, all it means is it's hotter.
 
Actually it doesn't. As I more or less said absolute zero is merely the absence of any heat. That doesn't mean it can't be heated up. Technically infinite cold is not possible because temperatures can't go any lower than zero Kelvins, while by contrast temperature can in theory rise infinitely. Cold is merely the absence of heat, the lack of movement of molecules. And absolute zero is the temperature at which that heat and energy is completely absent, but if you hit it with a blast of sufficient heat it would not stay at absolute zero.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
The fact that its weak to ANY heat-based attack proves its not absolute zero
Click to expand...
This.

Also, Random. The description says that "higher forms of the incendiary" can harm Frost, as in, higher than Volcanic Fire. That's it, unless we have concrete proof that the Ifrit can nullify Absolute Zero, Frost is not Absolute Zero. Anything significantly hotter than volcanic fire can destroy it.
 
If all we had was just THAT statement, of course I'd agree with you 100%,and thank you for being civil. However, we also have this statement:

"The cold honed claws are none other than an ice blade. The air around the blades is beyond absolute zero temperature and the victims who are slashed will die without feeling any pain."

Those two paragraphs are in the same description. Basically, the "higher levels of incendiary" statement means that they can still be hurt by heat provided it's hot enough, but on its own that statement just means their ice can be countered by heat that's hotter than lava to an unknown extent, obviously. However, the other statement says that it's beyond absolute zero. The statement about "higher realms of incendiary" doesn't actually contradict the statement about absolute zero.
 
It does, actually. Detach yourself from the bias and think this through, and read our Absolute Zero Feats in Fiction article.

The Frosts can be countered by any heat hotter than volcanic fire, and thus cannot be colder than absolute zero.
 
The statement is,

"Although impervious even to volcanic fire, the frosts are weak to higher realms of incendiary. Use the hellfire of Ifrit to counter them."

This doesn't necessarily mean anything except that the Frosts are vulnerable to heat, and that heat certainly has to be hotter than lava, but it doesn't specify how much hotter. On its own it would just prove exactly what it says, that Ifrit is an unknown degree hotter than lava, and whatever the heat of Ifrit is, that's what it means by higher realms of incendiary. But then there's this statement.

"The cold honed claws are none other than an ice blade. The air around the blades is beyond absolute zero temperature and the victims who are slashed will die without feeling any pain."

That specifically states that the air around their ice is beyond absolute zero.

And I'm reading the Absolute Zero Feats in Fiction page. It says,

"Believable statements are possibly the most easily obtained and valid confirmation of one's ability to reach absolute zero. If the characters powers are explicitly stated to reach absolute zero temperatures or some equivalent (i.e. the aforementioned -273.15┬░C and 0K) and the character/statement in question comes from a reliable source (as outlined in the Statements page), then it is very possible and likely the ability in question does in fact reach absolute zero."

The statement comes from the official in-game description, which is a reliable source, and here are some examples the absolute zero page gives:

"Evangeline A.K. McDowell's Kosmike Katastrophe is also explicitly stated to reach a temperature of -273.15┬░C."

"The attack "Sheer Cold" in Pokémon was originally named "Absolute Zero" in the Japanese release and is explicitly described as, "The target is attacked with a blast of absolute-zero cold." in the latest iterations of the game."
 
Ok, I'm back. Gimmie a minute to update the OP with what has and hasn't been accepted thus far, just for clarity's sake. I'll take a good look at all the discussion had in the meantime, too, before I say much.

@Matt

Oh, about the mindhax thing. Erm, I'm reluctant to show the Vergil scans because there's some really NSFW stuff in there, so I'm ok with just conceding on that. As far as Dante's hindhax resistances are concerned, I'm not biased about the degree of resistance nor particularly impressed with it in comparison to certain other fictional charaters, it's just that queries about it come up very often in DMC-related threads. Could we perhaps mention the feats on his page so as to cut down on questions about that matter?

EDIT: Completely off topic, but noice God (Castlevania) profile, Matt.
 
Ok, edited the OP. Does that look correct to all? I'll go ahead and address minor stuff now. I think it would be wise to do so before moving on to any major points of contention.

Invulnerability: I think I must be confused about the nature of invulnerability. I don't mean to say that he's invincible, just that his durability increases to an extent that he might as well be in comparison to what could ordinarily hurt him, like the Starman from Mario. I'll drop that point if there's just a misunderstsanding of what invulnerability is on my part, though.

Like fire, hellfire: Isn't hellfire something that ignores durability by nature? Also, Ifrit itself could be worth looking at, for it actually is made so that the user feels its heat as well, as seen when Dante first acquires it; even enemies in close enough proximity to its wielder take damage.

Blood stuff: Dante falls prey to Gluttony's ability at first, but as seen in those scans and the scans for flight, he overcomes it and is no longer affected by Gluttony's influence.
 
Bumping now since I'll likely be too busy with schoolwork to contribute in the days ahead. What do you guys think of the minor stuff at this time? And does the OP reflect the state of discussion well?
 
I was under the impression that the "higher realms of incendiary" was meant to be interpreted in a way that it was out of this world e.g spiritual realms, not that anything 1 celsius above volcanic fire would burn them. The flames being referred to as "hellfire" seem to support this interpretation along with the fact that nobody uses the term "higher realms" in such a manner.

Also, be aware we're dealing with fiction here. Where we suspend our disbelief, such as being able to accept characters flying at faster than light speeds; with that said, I don't see the problem in believing a character may have heat attacks hot enough to negate absolute-zero.
 
Thank you very much, AMM; I think that settles that matter nicely. While you're here, does the rest of the stuff (particularly the things mentioned in my last few posts) look logical to you? Feel free to ask any questions, of course.
 
"hellfire something that ignores durability by nature"

No, it's just hellish fire, per definition. You can assume that it's more of a big deal than normal fire in verse, but without feats you can't assume anything else.

"I was under the impression that the "higher realms of incendiary" was meant to be interpreted in a way that it was out of this world e.g spiritual realms, not that anything 1 celsius above volcanic fire would burn them. "

First: Nobody is sayin that celsius above volcanic fire would do the trick, but per what it said anything significantly higher would.

Secondly: The description doesn't imply anything about that only supernatural fire would work. If it did, it would say that "While impervious to any source of heat from the human world, it can be harmed by the hellfire of Ifrit" or something along those lines. "Higher realms of incendiary" is just a fancy way of saying "Hotter fire".

"Also, be aware we're dealing with fiction here. Where we suspend our disbelief, such as being able to accept characters flying at faster than light speeds; with that said, I don't see the problem in believing a character may have heat attacks hot enough to negate absolute-zero."

Yes, but we can't fully suspend our disbelief. We have to analyze feats and be critical of things that can be common in fiction. Yes, we can accept FTL speeds and Absolute Zero (or even beyond it) in fiction, but we need quantifiable proof.

A simple "Lightspeed" statement without feats to back it up is not proof of anything, much like a random villain stating to be capable of "Destroying the earth / world / universe" without supporting feats is also not acceptable (This is surprisingly common in fiction).

For Frost's ice, we have to consider the information given: Its data says that it is "Colder than Absolute Zero", which in itself is dubious and regrettable. We need sufficient proof that something is Absolute Zero alone, and even more so to assume that something is even colder than it.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Absolute_Zero_Feats_in_Fictio

I recommend you read this page and analyze how Absolute Zero works in comparison to Frost's own ice attacks.

With actual Absolute Zero, the vibration motions of particles become either minimal or halt completely, and in the later case the atoms would lose all binding energy and fall apart under their own weight.

Not only is that not the case with the Frost, as they are simply ice demons who attack with blades, but all that their profile says is that "The air around their blades is beyond absolute zero". That's it, no more elaboration nor explanation.

Add that in conjunction that the narrative considers the Frosts enduring volcanic fire as impressive, but can be negated by unquantifiably "higher forms of incendiary", and I'm sorry, the Frosts are not beyond Absolute Zero nor does Dante have resistance to it.
 
"First: Nobody is saying that celsius above volcanic fire would do the trick,"

What you said earlier makes it seem otherwise, "The Frosts can be countered by any heat hotter than volcanic fire."

"The description doesn't imply anything about that only supernatural fire would work."

It does if you take it literally, a being who can radiate an absolute zero air of sorts should be impervious to volcanic fire; thus, requires higher realms (as in something supernatural, as nobody uses those words just to refer to a higher level of power) of incendiary to bypass it (referred to as hellfire). However, at the end of the day, it's all about what is displayed rather than what is said; in that case, I don't think it displays properties of absolute zero at all. Although, I'm relying on memory at this point. Which in this case, Gordon would be of more help than I would.

With that said, my second point was just a general statement. A response to comments along the lines of "it being weak to a heat attack proves that it's not absolute zero."
 
I'm inclined to agree with Matthew on the Absolute Zero issue. Countering an Absolute Zero attack with fire is impossible.
 
"What you said earlier makes it seem otherwise, "The Frosts can be countered by any heat hotter than volcanic fire." "

Please, don't misinterpret my statements. You said that the Frosts couldn't be countered by something 1 celsius above volcanic fire. I agree. I simply think that they need to be significantly hotter. Tens of degrees seems like a good estimate.

"It does if you take it literally, a being who can radiate an absolute zero air of sorts should be impervious to volcanic fire; thus, requires higher realms (as in something supernatural, as nobody uses those words just to refer to a higher level of power) of incendiary to bypass it (referred to as hellfire)."

Argument from incredulity. It's not like purple prose and fancy words have never been used before in fiction. Yes, Ifrit is Hellfire, but it is at the end of the day just a buzzword, and it is explicitly noted as being hotter than volcanic fire as a big deal.
 
If it's of any significance, Frosts are cabale of freezing the moisture in the air, displacing themselves on a molecular level, and covering significantly large areas with ice. That bit about molecular displacement especially intrigues me.

In my opinion, the Frosts do not perfecly display properties of absolute zero, but there are still enough notable properties to give them the benefit of the doubt. Why, if we are to be so strict on the matter, what of Mega Man characters, who are given this ability on practically nothing but a statement (from a guidebook, not even the main games, if I recall correctly) and the ability to manipulate what looks like normal ice? Ice Man is weak to fire weaponry, too. One could make the case that Ice Man is a different case because he is not stated to have an absolute zero body, as opposed to the Frosts. But here we have a misunderstanding, for, you see, the Frosts themselves are not abosolute zero; their claws are. Ifrit is not super-effective against the absolute zero claws of the Frosts; it is super-effective against the icy body of the Frosts.

Now, I do not suggest we downgrade Mega Man characters for having fewer evidences in favor of absolute zero feats than the Frosts do. I do suggest that we take greater care to observe the nature of the feat in question and follow precedent accordingly.

Oh, and were there still any points of contention with the stuff I addressed right before AMM contributed to the discussion?
 
@Freeman

I don't know much about Megaman. I suppose Absolute Zero Megaman is accepted on the OBD, but they have very different standards for Absolute Zero. They don't consider it to be anything other than energy reduction or something, and don't view it as bypassing durability.

(This happened because Rukia got Absolute Zero and they hate Bleach).

As for the blood stuff, okay.
 
@Matthew Schroeder (Now we have at least two cool Matts in the thread!)

Oh, my bad for bringing up an uncertain example, then. Perhaps Rep could help us out here?

Very good! I'll edit the OP accordingly. Let me know if you have any other questions!

EDIT: Done. Also specified the nature of transmutation. Let's make sure the profile specifies this so the ability isn't exaggerated.
 
Well, it's not my intention to derail the thread with Mega Man matters (and it's surely not my intention to downgrade the Blue Bomber and co.). I just think the matter with the Frosts is consistent with precedent, especially since the absolute zero thing in question is not actually vulnerable to heat. Frost bodies aren't absolute zero; their attacks are. Although Frosts can manipulate the molecular structures of their bodies in interesting ways. Am I making sense?

Oh, and before we even consider downgrading Mega Man characters (which I do not think is necessary at all), let's hear what Reppuzan has to say.
 
Sorry for double posting, but I remembered another point.

Ice Man is not weak to fire, he just dislikes it. His weakness in-canon is the Thunder Beam used by Elec Man. In fact, Ice Man was explicitly told to handle both Bomb Man and Fire Man should they go out of control by nullifying their weapons. Your interpretation likely came from the cartoon show (which took a ridiculous number of breaks from canon with the character designs alone), where the Fire Storm was his weakness.
 
"Countering an Absolute Zero attack with fire is impossible."

It is impossible, outside the realms of fiction that is. When we see a guy who's capable of shooting projectiles hot enough to negate absolute zero temperatures we deal with it the same way we deal with characters who have been calculated to be faster than light. Please keep in mind that this point isn't to defend Frost, as I have already stated Frost doesn't display anything reminiscent of absolute-zero temperatures, but rather how we approach absolute zero feats in general.
 
@AMM

If the statement has something along the lines of infinite heat or some special magical properties, I'll bite. But as you said, Frost has not shown properties of Absolute Zero nor has Ifrit demonstrated anything that would lead us to believe that he can nullify it.
 
Okay, so has this topic been properly dealt with? If so, we should probably close the thread.
 
Well, we should probably wait until it is confirmed that the changes have been made.
 
A few of the abilties haven't been discussed. One other little thing I should mention is Dante's weakness section says he refuses to kill humans, and while this is true, I think it should specifically say NORMAL humans, since he was more than willing to kill Arius and Arkham who were technically human.
 
Matthew,

Well it is a legitimate weakness. However, I saw people were a bit uncertain as to what it meant in the Anakin vs Dante thread.

Of course, a NORMAL human could never harm Dante anyway, so I guess that weakness is relevant to the story but meaningless in versus battles. So if that's the case it may be better to remove it entirely. Either one is fine, but keeping it how it is has been a bad thing, it seems.
 
@Rep

Whew, that's a relief about Mega Man. Naturally, this information helps give credence to Absolute Zero ice weaponry in other Mega Man series since they all operate on superior tech. May need to put something on the relevant pages to prevent any downplay, just in case.

What was decided about the Frosts' manipulating molecular structures and flashfreezing even air? If that's not enough evidence to establish the validity of the absolute statement then the matter has been logically concluded, but I just want to make sure we've generally come to a consensus on that matter. Once I know for sure where we all stand on that, I'll stand by to close the thread once all necessary changes have been made.
 
So, is anybody willing to make the agreed upon changes?
 
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