Deltarune Chapter 2 discussion!

[Imaginym]

Spoiler: The update to Version 1.07 is also Shadow Crystal relevant

Jevil's Shadow Crystal is now an accessible key item. It has distinct text compared to Spamton's Shadow Crystal, including as Glass in the Light World.
Jevil's Shadow Crystal as Glass, when used, causes the text: "You looked through the glass. For some strange reason, for just a brief moment... You thought you saw through your hand.

 

[RinneItachi]

That makes me remember some of the ending dialogue after you beat Jevil.

"FROM NOW, A NIGHTMARE WILL AWAKEN IN YOUR HEARTS.

IN THE SHADOW OF THE KNIGHT'S HAND...

LIGHTNER'S, CAN YOU STOP IT?"

And if you attack him, he says

"THE HAND OF THE KNIGHT IS DRIFTING FORWARD.

SOON, THE "QUEEN" RETURNS, AND HELL'S ROAR BUBBLES FROM THE DEPTHS..."

So apparently Queen was mentioned way back in Chapter 1? That's something, but the reason I brought it up is Jevil's mentioning of the Knight's hand, and how it says that Kris thought they saw through their hand when holding the Shadow Crystal. And we also have the end of Chapter 2 which is obviously a very massive implication that Kris is the Knight, or is at least being controlled by them.

 

[RinneItachi]

By the way. Spamton NEO apparently can turn his hands into phones, and when he does that, we see him using attacks that look like soundwaves. And for Undertale we use Greater Dog's sound attacks as legitimately sound based and scale other characters to that. Not to mention that it's supported by Susie blocking the sound from Ralsei singing in Chapter 1.

I think there's more than enough evidence for Subsonic characters here. Although I think there was probably enough already, but at the very least Spamton NEO is really good supporting evidence I guess.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

which is obviously a very massive implication that Kris is the Knight, or is at least being controlled by them.

None of these are necessarily true, BERDLY was going to make a fountain too, making one is not really meaningful plotwise

 

[RinneItachi]

None of these are necessarily true, BERDLY was going to make a fountain too, making one is not really meaningful plotwise

Most Lightner's don't even know what a Fountain is or how to make one. In addition, most who would know what a Fountain is should also know that it can cause the destruction of the world. Furthermore, the Queen remembers them using a knife, which is what "Kris" uses at the end. And the Cyber World Fountain was made in the computer room of the library. If it was a mysterious 3rd party mostly unrelated to the current main cast, I find it odd that they'd choose that place in specific. Also remember that the Lightner's are real people, and the Dark World beings are basically inanimate objects outside of their world. The large hand and the knife could very well be Kris in the real world, and they simply appear large because they're a real person. Well, real in the game.

It is massively implied, but I'm only calling it an implication cause it's still not outright confirmed.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Most Lightner's don't even know what a Fountain is or how to make one.

This is not mutually exclusive to Kris. Berdly, Noelle and Susie know they can make it just through their will alone, and furthermore, there could be more lightners who know about it too.

In addition, most who would know what a Fountain is should also know that it can cause the destruction of the world.

I said they could, not they would.

Furthermore, the Queen remembers them using a knife, which is what "Kris" uses at the end.

Again, not mutually exclusive to Kris, it could be Chara for all we know. Again, the Knight talked to the King, defeated three of the four kings, talked to Queen, live, with video proof, and still, Queen doesn't recognize them?
SOULless Kris can barely walk straight, why would they use some kind of disguise?
The Knight and Kris are probably different people.

And the Cyber World Fountain was made in the computer room of the library. If it was a mysterious 3rd party mostly unrelated to the current main cast, I find it odd that they'd choose that place in specific.

The Knight could be someone related to the town. Could be Asriel for all we know.

Queen stated the strange knight used his will and Determination to create the fountain. As Ralsei said, the SOUL carries those, but Kris didn't have one to do so.

 

[RinneItachi]

This is not mutually exclusive to Kris. Berdly, Noelle and Susie know they can make it just through their will alone, and furthermore, there could be more lightners who know about it too.

I said they could, not they would.

Again, not mutually exclusive to Kris, it could be Chara for all we know. Again, the Knight talked to the King, defeated three of the four kings, talked to Queen, live, with video proof, and still, Queen doesn't recognize them?
SOULless Kris can barely walk straight, why would they use some kind of disguise?
The Knight and Kris are probably different people.

The Knight could be someone related to the town. Could be Asriel for all we know.

Queen stated the strange knight used his will and Determination to create the fountain. As Ralsei said, the SOUL carries those, but Kris didn't have one to do so.

They didn't know until the end of Chapter 2. And while it's possible that other Lightner's know about Fountain's, the point is that we don't know about any Lightner's outside of "Kris" who has made one in general.

Again, the point is that most Lightner's wouldn't make one if they know the result, thus making this person (Kris or someone controlling them) a more likely suspect, because we know that they're still making Fountain's regardless even though it's a bad thing to do, whereas we don't know anyone else who would have a reason to make one.

And that's the thing, it's still a full possibility that Kris is being possessed. We have more evidence of that than anything else.

That makes no sense, we need to consider motives, not to mention that he's at college and would be coming back to town specifically for the purpose of making the Fountain's.

Who said Kris doesn't have a soul? And again, possession is a fully likely possibility. We're possessing Kris already, no reason to think another entity couldn't override our control, which goes back to my Chara theory.

 

[Imaginym]

Either way, if Kris were The Knight, people would recognize them. Jevil, King, Queen, Spamton, The Swatches who watched the Queen's video....
& Darkners, like Spamton seem to be able to see the SOUL, so I'd assume if someone was possessing Kris other than The SOUL they MIGHT notice that, too.

Kris making The Library Dark Fountain also doesn't make sense. Like was said earlier, SOUL-less Kris can barely walk straight, & there wasn't much sign of a break-in at the library, nor evidence someone had come in; Noelle & Berdly still thought it was a reasonable place to do their homework, no one thought that was weird, & the day before, Kris could see through the doors into the computer lab.

If Kris WAS possessed & made The Dark Fountain in the library's computer lab, the ONLY time they could've done it was the night between Chapter 1 & Chapter 2, & while they were awake, it's strongly implied they were awake to eat a whole pie.
Not to walk to the other side of town, break into the library undetected, & stab the floor in the middle of the night.
With OR without the SOUL usually in Kris, this seems implausible.

 

[RinneItachi]

Remember that Kris looks much different in the Dark World than in the real world? They're blue, wear armor, and have a sword, which is quite the contrast. If Kris was the Knight they'd be making the Fountain's in the real world (or Light World), where they hardly look the same.

Just cause they walk slowly and oddly doesn't mean they're incapable of doing almost anything, seeing as they leave the house through the window and slash the tires of Toriel's cars, and are capable of stabbing through the floor with immense force. And the rest...well that just doesn't make sense as a counterargument, of course Toby isn't going to leave evidence of who the Knight is for the in-universe characters to figure out and solve the mystery in Chapter 2 or something. And in that case, how would the actual Knight have broken in without leaving evidence of the incident, either? Moving on, Kris would've made it at night time of the day when he looked into it. I also don't understand why Noelle and Berdly wanting to do their homework there is relevant.

That was a diversion from Toby to make us think the end of Chapter 1 was just bait and that Kris wasn't up to anything...then we see the end of Chapter 2 where he literally makes a Fountain that'll destroy the world if it isn't sealed. The end of Chapter 1 being when Kris goes to the library and makes a Fountain is honestly a fully logical idea and by far the best conclusion we can reach until further chapters come out.

Of course, there's absolutely no doubt that Gaster will also play a big part in all this, so it doesn't solve everything.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Remember that Kris looks much different in the Dark World than in the real world? They're blue, wear armor, and have a sword, which is quite the contrast. If Kris was the Knight they'd be making the Fountain's in the real world (or Light World), where they hardly look the same.

I'm pretty sure the ones who met the Knight, such as Seam, are not mentally debilitated enough to not recognize a simple pallet swap. Plus, again, the Knight defeated three out of the four kings, gave Lancer's dad a purpose, and spoke to multiple characters. This makes no sense.

 

[Imaginym]

I'm pretty sure the ones who met the Knight, such as Seam, are not mentally debilitated enough to not recognize a simple pallet swap.

Seam met the Knight?
But yeah, I agree. The idea of Kris being The Knight makes no sense, I do dare say.

 

[RinneItachi]

I'm pretty sure the ones who met the Knight, such as Seam, are not mentally debilitated enough to not recognize a simple pallet swap. Plus, again, the Knight defeated three out of the four kings, gave Lancer's dad a purpose, and spoke to multiple characters. This makes no sense.

Literally a different skin color, hair color, vastly different clothing, and a sword. Although the latter stuff is contradictory. If anything though that just makes me think there are multiple Knight's, in a sense. Cyber World and the first world could very well be thinking of two different beings, seeing as literally any Lightner (which seems to just be anyone in general) can make a Fountain.

 

[Imaginym]

And in that case, how would the actual Knight have broken in without leaving evidence of the incident, either?

By being better able to move than SOUL-less Kris, or through supernatural powers.

Moving on, Kris would've made it at night time of the day when he looked into it. I also don't understand why Noelle and Berdly wanting to do their homework there is relevant.

It, along with being able to see into the lab the day before, tells us that the library's computer lab was considered normal & useable. Of course, there is the possibility that Noelle & Berdly went in when the Dark World already formed, unsuspecting about the ominous darkness, thinking the computer lab was just pitch black despite it being, what, 4 PM? (Since they just finished their school day.)

Meaning the library's Dark World was made either during the night time/in the very early morning before most were awake, or during the school day.

That was a diversion from Toby to make us think the end of Chapter 1 was just bait and that Kris wasn't up to anything...then we see the end of Chapter 2 where he literally makes a Fountain that'll destroy the world if it isn't sealed.

It feels a bit weird.
Toby does a fake us out once with the malicious-looking knife brandishing, but it turns out, he was just sneaking out to steal a pie.
& Toriel's dialogue implies he has done this kind of pie eating & food theft before. (IIRC, she also asks if she needs to lock the fridge in chains again, but I may be mistaken.)
& Kris is implied to be a prankster, so being someone who gets excited about disobeying their mother to steal & eat a whole pie in the night seems in-character.

& saying Kris makes The Fountain because it's a past habit as part of being The Knight when lots of stuff doesn't really suggest they're a different entity kind of ignores part of Chapter 2 & its ending.

Susie & Noelle show a fondness for The Dark World, lamenting why can't the Light World be like this? Injuries can be healed with magic, they can have adventures, be accepted & make lots of new friends.
Susie wants to do it again, & at the end of Chapter 2, talks to Kris on the couch about wanting to adventure again (I don't recall the exact dialogue.) before falling asleep. & the whole of Chapter 2 had how fountains are made being introduced.

Kris, seeing how much his friends likes The Dark World, & having learned about making Fountains & Dark Worlds, & deciding to make a new Dark World for them to enjoy seems like reasonable behaviour for them.


& if Kris is The Knight, why don't the 3 Kings you can talk to in the jail not recognize him as the one who overthrew them? They're not insane.

• HA HA HA. WHAT FUN!!! YOU'RE FAST, FAST, STRONG, STRONG. BUT THERE ARE YET FASTER, YET STRONGER. THE HAND OF THE KNIGHT IS DRIFTING FORWARD. SOON, THE "QUEEN" RETURNS, AND HELL'S ROAR BUBBLES FROM THE DEPTHS... LIGHTNERS, CAN YOU STOP IT? UEE HEE HEE! EITHER WAY, A MISCHIEF-MISCHIEF, A CHAOS-CHAOS...! LIGHTNERS! FROM INSIDE YOUR LITTLE CELL!! TAKE ME AND DO YOUR STRONGEST---!

& if Kris is The Knight, why does Jevil talk like The Knight is stronger than Kris, Ralsei & Susie, when they just beat him, say The Knight is approaching, when, if it's Kris, The Knight is already there?
If Kris is The Knight, why are they intimidated by the darkness in the closet; If they're The Knight, they have a history of making Dark Worlds, & this Darkness wouldn't be unfamiliar to them.
& since Susie is unnerved as if she's unfamiliar with The Dark World's darkness, then if The Knight was Kris, Kris would have LESS reason to be worried about Susie finding this Dark World; If her finding this Dark World was a problem. they could force her in, to The Dark World they're familiar with (They already interacted with folks there before Kris's 1st visit.), that Susie is unfamiliar with, to eliminate her there.

 

[RinneItachi]

By being better able to move than SOUL-less Kris, or through supernatural powers.

It, along with being able to see into the lab the day before, tells us that the library's computer lab was considered normal & useable. Of course, there is the possibility that Noelle & Berdly went in when the Dark World already formed, unsuspecting about the ominous darkness, thinking the computer lab was just pitch black despite it being, what, 4 PM? (Since they just finished their school day.)

Meaning the library's Dark World was made either during the night time/in the very early morning before most were awake, or during the school day.

It feels a bit weird.
Toby does a fake us out once with the malicious-looking knife brandishing, but it turns out, he was just sneaking out to steal a pie.
& Toriel's dialogue implies he has done this kind of pie eating & food theft before. (IIRC, she also asks if she needs to lock the fridge in chains again, but I may be mistaken.)
& Kris is implied to be a prankster, so being someone who gets excited about disobeying their mother to steal & eat a whole pie in the night seems in-character.

& saying Kris makes The Fountain because it's a past habit as part of being The Knight when lots of stuff doesn't really suggest they're a different entity kind of ignores part of Chapter 2 & its ending.

Susie & Noelle show a fondness for The Dark World, lamenting why can't the Light World be like this? Injuries can be healed with magic, they can have adventures, be accepted & make lots of new friends.
Susie wants to do it again, & at the end of Chapter 2, talks to Kris on the couch about wanting to adventure again (I don't recall the exact dialogue.) before falling asleep. & the whole of Chapter 2 had how fountains are made being introduced.

Kris, seeing how much his friends likes The Dark World, & having learned about making Fountains & Dark Worlds, & deciding to make a new Dark World for them to enjoy seems like reasonable behaviour for them.


& if Kris is The Knight, why don't the 3 Kings you can talk to in the jail not recognize him as the one who overthrew them? They're not insane.

• HA HA HA. WHAT FUN!!! YOU'RE FAST, FAST, STRONG, STRONG. BUT THERE ARE YET FASTER, YET STRONGER. THE HAND OF THE KNIGHT IS DRIFTING FORWARD. SOON, THE "QUEEN" RETURNS, AND HELL'S ROAR BUBBLES FROM THE DEPTHS... LIGHTNERS, CAN YOU STOP IT? UEE HEE HEE! EITHER WAY, A MISCHIEF-MISCHIEF, A CHAOS-CHAOS...! LIGHTNERS! FROM INSIDE YOUR LITTLE CELL!! TAKE ME AND DO YOUR STRONGEST---!

& if Kris is The Knight, why does Jevil talk like The Knight is stronger than Kris, Ralsei & Susie, when they just beat him, say The Knight is approaching, when, if it's Kris, The Knight is already there?
If Kris is The Knight, why are they intimidated by the darkness in the closet; If they're The Knight, they have a history of making Dark Worlds, & this Darkness wouldn't be unfamiliar to them.
& since Susie is unnerved as if she's unfamiliar with The Dark World's darkness, then if The Knight was Kris, Kris would have LESS reason to be worried about Susie finding this Dark World; If her finding this Dark World was a problem. they could force her in, to The Dark World they're familiar with (They already interacted with folks there before Kris's 1st visit.), that Susie is unfamiliar with, to eliminate her there.

Hypothetically speaking then I guess it's possible. But no reason to take that as more likely than Kris doing that.

Yes, that's literally what we're given to expect. That someone made it during the night after Chapter 1, and that Birdly and Noelle entered the Library and got pulled in.

Pretty much.

And at the end of Chapter 2, they use another knife they got from out of nowhere to slash the tires after ripping the players soul out, and we see them use it again to stab the floor. Is them making a Fountain which could result in the destruction of the world also a prank? I mean, they did clearly eat the whole pie, but that doesn't necessarily mean they didn't do anything else, either. Especially when they seem to blatantly have bad intentions.

What? I don't really understand what you're saying there.

Yeah, I did also consider that Kris made it to go on another adventure, but it seems a little far-fetched that they'd do something that could potentially destroy the entire world, just for the sake of fun. Ralsei made it very clear what making a Fountain would, or at least could do. However that is definitely a solid theory. We know that Kris is unsuccessful and likely even envious of Asriel's own success. Kris seems lazy, and probably even slightly depressed. So adventures like these would obviously be a dream come true to him, and it'd make sense that he'd want to go through more of them. But there are still things that don't add up with it. Like what I said before, for starters, in addition to, well, if Kris is the one actually doing this, they would clearly know that they're being controlled by the player (which is already heavily implied from their reaction after beating Spamton NEO), and they would probably prefer to focus on that issue over continuing to go on these adventures. Furthermore, I find it odd that they randomly create/summon knives from out of nowhere.

What I said above.

Again, Kris does not look the same. I don't know how having a different skin color, hair color, clothing style, and new weapon is all irrelevant because they have the same height and facial features. Not to mention that their eyes likely aren't visible for the most part.

Because Jevil is either speaking like an insane person or because he doesn't know. Simple as that.

I've been talking about Kris and whoever might also be possessing Kris. They could also be doing it to act like they don't know. There are a multitude of reasons.

...What?

 

[Imaginym]

And at the end of Chapter 2, they use another knife they got from out of nowhere to slash the tires after ripping the players soul out, and we see them use it again to stab the floor.

"Another" knife? How do we know it's different from the previous?

Is them making a Fountain which could result in the destruction of the world also a prank? I mean, they did clearly eat the whole pie, but that doesn't necessarily mean they didn't do anything else, either.

Ralsei says the world is unbalanced by having 2 fountains, but the prophecy visually shows us 3. Even if there isn't a delay after a third fountain, Kris has been on adventures twice now with 2 fountains (Chapter 1's Castle Town & Card Kingdom, & Chapter 2's Castle Town & Cyber City.), with no world destruction happening.

It's possible they aren't concerned about another fountain being made or the world entering the stages of being destroyed, because it hasn't happened on their adventures, presumably because if The Knight is someone else, they haven't made a third fountain so far, & Kris has been able to seal away the 2nd just fine, both times.

There's also another problem with assuming Kris did it:

Queen, when she sees the traffic jam suspects "another dog must have gotten into" the road, an event she learned of via the internet, which happened in the morning.

Especially when they seem to blatantly have bad intentions.

Doubtful, considering the whole thing about Kris's friends speaking of their fondness for Dark Worlds, including Susie at Kris's house before she goes to sleep, suggesting he did it for friendship.

What? I don't really understand what you're saying there.

Would you be willing to quote what I said that you don't understand.

Yeah, I did also consider that Kris made it to go on another adventure, but it seems a little far-fetched that they'd do something that could potentially destroy the entire world, just for the sake of fun. Ralsei made it very clear what making a Fountain would, or at least could do. However that is definitely a solid theory. We know that Kris is unsuccessful and likely even envious of Asriel's own success.

How do you figure unsuccessful? There's also the issue that Kris may not care about Ralsei. The resemblance to a lost brother, Ralsei's fondness for hugs (Whereas Asgore notes that "you don't like hugs like that" after hugging Kris.), the dialogue after leaving Spamton Neo's basement where Kris doesn't take Ralsei's offer for comfort, but does take Susie's, & Susie tea healing more than twice as much as Ralsei Tea, not to mention seeming more fond of Susie tea than Ralsei's:

Kris Tea	Susie Tea	Ralsei Tea	Noelle Tea
Kris	S: (No reaction?) N: (... no reaction?)	S: STOP LOOKING AT ME! R: (They seem into it)	S: (No reaction?) R: (I'm happy!)	S: (...do they like it?) R: (They're drinking it...) N: (Umm, do they like it or not...?)

(From the Deltarune Wiki. https://deltarune.fandom.com/wiki/Tea )

Kris seems lazy, and probably even slightly depressed.

How do you figure lazy?

So adventures like these would obviously be a dream come true to him, and it'd make sense that he'd want to go through more of them. But there are still things that don't add up with it. Like what I said before, for starters,

What exactly was it you said here that you're referencing?

in addition to, well, if Kris is the one actually doing this, they would clearly know that they're being controlled by the player (which is already heavily implied from their reaction after beating Spamton NEO), and they would probably prefer to focus on that issue over continuing to go on these adventures. Furthermore, I find it odd that they randomly create/summon knives from out of nowhere.

In theory they might prefer to focus on getting rid of the player's control, but they like these adventures, & they do it with the SOUL in them. We see Kris put the SOUL in the birdcage that's described as "looking like it's seen a few crashes" at the end of Chapter 1's ending, but in the morning, the SOUL is in Kris again.
If holding the SOUL is the usual use of the bird cage in the wagon, why would they still have the SOUl in them if they've been trying to get rid of it? The wagon having seen a few crashes implies stuff like going down hills or such. Put SOUL in bird cage like we've seen them do, send it down a hill so the SOUL goes far away... & then realize they can't ditch it, take SOUL back.

& in Chapter 2's ending, they put the SOUL back inside them after they went outside to slash the tires.

They sit on the couch, & wait until it's dark outside, suggesting they waited for hours with their SOUL in them, despite doing nothing but moving from the bathroom to the couch & sitting still after removing their SOUL in the bathroom.
If they weren't going to do any activity for hours, that's not very intense. Yet they still kept the SOUL in them for such a low level of activity, rather than just keeping it hidden in the closed bathroom cabinet. MAYBE they were worried Toriel would look in the cabinet under the bathroom sink & find the SOUL, but why would Kris suspect she would connect it to him?
Heck, why trap it in a birdcage people can see into? Why not just throw it into the woods? & the SOUL in the Chapter 1 ending birdcage can be moved, but not out of the cage.
When Kris takes the SOUL out, they make sure it DOESN'T GO ANYWHERE, & they take it back, even if they're not going to do anything other than sitting or sleeping still as a stone.

Getting rid of the SOUL doesn't even like something Kris has in mind, either because they can't function properly without it (They walk around lurched over, mouth open with their teeth glared, & their steps are jerky & staggered.), or because they want it for some reason, maybe because a SOUL is powerful in some ways.

Maybe so they can seal Dark Fountains to leave Dark Worlds & return to normal life when their fun in a Dark World is done, maybe other reasons?

What I said above.

I don't know which part of which of your posts you're referring to here.

Again, Kris does not look the same. I don't know how having a different skin color, hair color, clothing style, and new weapon is all irrelevant because they have the same height and facial features. Not to mention that their eyes likely aren't visible for the most part.

Kris in the Light World & Kris in the Dark World do look different, I agree, but....
Kris is responsible for the 3 kings in the DARK WORLD being overthrown. How would Kris do that without being inside the Dark World themself? & if they're in the Dark World, wouldn't they have their Dark World appearance?

& we don't know of a basis for how they can change or control their appearance, other than them being The Knight. Saying:

1. They can take on a different look in the Dark World because they're The Knight,
2. They're The Knight because they can take on a different look in the Dark World....

....is circular logic.

Because Jevil is either speaking like an insane person or because he doesn't know. Simple as that.

If The Knight were Kris, Jevil's insanity being used to justify him thinking The Knight/Kris's hand is "approaching" & not there already is a stretch, since his only other instances of his insanity distorting his logic like that is saying he's the one free in his cell, & others are the ones trapped, & even that's about the recurring theme of Freedom for the Shadow Crystal holders.
Saying that Kris is The Knight, yet that Jevil doesn't recognize The Knight's strength when fighting him is silly. Even Jevil acknowledges strength in a fight.

Heck, Kris can ask Spamton about The Knight, & Spamton is initially open to it, but then gets stopped & panicked, implied to be an outside source; If Spamton is terrified of The Knight's disapproval, why would he be open to talking about it, or friendly to Kris? If Kris were The Knight, whom he's scared of, why would Spamton talk to him?

& if he didn't know but him being stopped was Kris outting themself as The Knight (For telling Kris/The Knight info about The Knight himself that The Knight would already know?? Why anger over that unless Kris & The Knight were distinct beings?), & why would he continue to be open & friendly with Kris from there?

I've been talking about Kris and whoever might also be possessing Kris. They could also be doing it to act like they don't know. There are a multitude of reasons.

...What?

Kris pretending not to recognize The Darkness has very little in support of it.
But if Kris WAS The Knight, & they were making fountains, especially with the goal of destroying the world, then they wouldn't want others finding out & stopping them. Ergo, eliminate Susie, & leave the Dark World however it is they normally do.
If they need Susie's help to leave.... Well, that might make sense... since they're Level 1. But why would a Knight who already has experience creating & being in Dark Worlds be only level 1? & thus, why not just eliminate Susie & leave on their own?

& if they ARE pretending to be ignorant of the Dark Worlds, what's the evidence to support that they're faking ignorance?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Literally a different skin color, hair color, vastly different clothing, and a sword. Although the latter stuff is contradictory.

None of these are different, if they met, it could only be inside the Dark World itself. How does Kris beat Three Kings that only exists in the dark world while looking like his light world form?
Makes no sense.

If anything though that just makes me think there are multiple Knight's, in a sense. Cyber World and the first world could very well be thinking of two different beings, seeing as literally any Lightner (which seems to just be anyone in general) can make a Fountain.

Nope, the characters from different fountains know each other, hardly that would be the case if they had different creators.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

News: Susie has never met Asriel
This could further explain how she didn't react at Ralsei's appearance

 

[RinneItachi]

"Another" knife? How do we know it's different from the previous?

Ralsei says the world is unbalanced by having 2 fountains, but the prophecy visually shows us 3. Even if there isn't a delay after a third fountain, Kris has been on adventures twice now with 2 fountains (Chapter 1's Castle Town & Card Kingdom, & Chapter 2's Castle Town & Cyber City.), with no world destruction happening.

It's possible they aren't concerned about another fountain being made or the world entering the stages of being destroyed, because it hasn't happened on their adventures, presumably because if The Knight is someone else, they haven't made a third fountain so far, & Kris has been able to seal away the 2nd just fine, both times.

There's also another problem with assuming Kris did it:

Queen, when she sees the traffic jam suspects "another dog must have gotten into"

Doubtful, considering the whole thing about Kris's friends speaking of their fondness for Dark Worlds, including Susie at Kris's house before she goes to sleep, suggesting he did it for friendship.

Would you be willing to quote what I said that you don't understand.

How do you figure unsuccessful? There's also the issue that Kris may not care about Ralsei. The resemblance to a lost brother, Ralsei's fondness for hugs (Whereas Asgore notes that "you don't like hugs like that" after hugging Kris.), the dialogue after leaving Spamton Neo's basement where Kris doesn't take Ralsei's offer for comfort, but does take Susie's, & Susie tea healing more than twice as much as Ralsei Tea, not to mention seeming more fond of Susie tea than Ralsei's:

Kris Tea	Susie Tea	Ralsei Tea	Noelle Tea
Kris	S: (No reaction?) N: (... no reaction?)	S: STOP LOOKING AT ME! R: (They seem into it)	S: (No reaction?) R: (I'm happy!)	S: (...do they like it?) R: (They're drinking it...) N: (Umm, do they like it or not...?)

(From the Deltarune Wiki. https://deltarune.fandom.com/wiki/Tea )


How do you figure lazy?

What exactly was it you said here that you're referencing?

In theory they might prefer to focus on getting rid of the player's control, but they like these adventures, & they do it with the SOUL in them. We see Kris put the SOUL in the birdcage that's described as "looking like it's seen a few crashes" at the end of Chapter 1's ending, but in the morning, the SOUL is in Kris again.
If holding the SOUL is the usual use of the bird cage in the wagon, why would they still have the SOUl in them if they've been trying to get rid of it? The wagon having seen a few crashes implies stuff like going down hills or such. Put SOUL in bird cage like we've seen them do, send it down a hill so the SOUL goes far away... & then realize they can't ditch it, take SOUL back.

& in Chapter 2's ending, they put the SOUL back inside them after they went outside to slash the tires.

They sit on the couch, & wait until it's dark outside, suggesting they waited for hours with their SOUL in them, despite doing nothing but moving from the bathroom to the couch & sitting still after removing their SOUL in the bathroom.
If they weren't going to do any activity for hours, that's not very intense. Yet they still kept the SOUL in them for such a low level of activity, rather than just keeping it hidden in the closed bathroom cabinet. MAYBE they were worried Toriel would look in the cabinet under the bathroom sink & find the SOUL, but why would Kris suspect she would connect it to him?
Heck, why trap it in a birdcage people can see into? Why not just throw it into the woods? & the SOUL in the Chapter 1 ending birdcage can be moved, but not out of the cage.
When Kris takes the SOUL out, they make sure it DOESN'T GO ANYWHERE, & they take it back, even if they're not going to do anything other than sitting or sleeping still as a stone.

Getting rid of the SOUL doesn't even like something Kris has in mind, either because they can't function properly without it (They walk around lurched over, mouth open with their teeth glared, & their steps are jerky & staggered.), or because they want it for some reason, maybe because a SOUL is powerful in some ways.

Maybe so they can seal Dark Fountains to leave Dark Worlds & return to normal life when their fun in a Dark World is done, maybe other reasons?

I don't know which part of which of your posts you're referring to here.

Kris in the Light World & Kris in the Dark World do look different, I agree, but....
Kris is responsible for the 3 kings in the DARK WORLD being overthrown. How would Kris do that without being inside the Dark World themself? & if they're in the Dark World, wouldn't they have their Dark World appearance?

& we don't know of a basis for how they can change or control their appearance, other than them being The Knight. Saying:

1. They can take on a different look in the Dark World because they're The Knight,
2. They're The Knight because they can take on a different look in the Dark World....

....is circular logic.

If The Knight were Kris, Jevil's insanity being used to justify him thinking The Knight/Kris's hand is "approaching" & not there already is a stretch, since his only other instances of his insanity distorting his logic like that is saying he's the one free in his cell, & others are the ones trapped, & even that's about the recurring theme of Freedom for the Shadow Crystal holders.
Saying that Kris is The Knight, yet that Jevil doesn't recognize The Knight's strength when fighting him is silly. Even Jevil acknowledges strength in a fight.

Heck, Kris can ask Spamton about The Knight, & Spamton is initially open to it, but then gets stopped & panicked, implied to be an outside source; If Spamton is terrified of The Knight's disapproval, why would he be open to talking about it, or friendly to Kris? If Kris were The Knight, whom he's scared of, why would Spamton talk to him?

& if he didn't know but him being stopped was Kris outting themself as The Knight (For telling Kris/The Knight info about The Knight himself that The Knight would already know?? Why anger over that unless Kris & The Knight were distinct beings?), & why would he continue to be open & friendly with Kris from there?

Kris pretending not to recognize The Darkness has very little in support of it.
But if Kris WAS The Knight, & they were making fountains, especially with the goal of destroying the world, then they wouldn't want others finding out & stopping them. Ergo, eliminate Susie, & leave the Dark World however it is they normally do.
If they need Susie's help to leave.... Well, that might make sense... since they're Level 1. But why would a Knight who already has experience creating & being in Dark Worlds be only level 1? & thus, why not just eliminate Susie & leave on their own?

& if they ARE pretending to be ignorant of the Dark Worlds, what's the evidence to support that they're faking ignorance?

Damn bro I'm happy or sorry that happened to you but I ain't reading all that.

(Another way of saying I'm honestly not dedicated enough to this argument about theories and stuff to read through all that lol)

 

[Imaginym]

Damn bro I'm happy or sorry that happened to you but I ain't reading all that.

(Another way of saying I'm honestly not dedicated enough to this argument about theories and stuff to read through all that lol)

I can try to condense it, then.

Spoiler: 10 Numbered Points about Kris & the idea of them being The Knight

1. Kris has adventured twice with 2 Dark Fountains active, & both times, has had times where they were alone, & opportunities to make a 3rd fountain, but didn't. If they seek the destructive unbalancing of the world, why not?

2. The Library Dark World likely didn't exist before Kris got to school; The internet went out, & there was a traffic jam caused by a dog getting in the road, yet Kris got to school just fine, implying no traffic jam then. The DW likely had come to be after that internet outtage had happened, since Queen had knowledge of it AND the dog traffic jam was searchable, so without evidence of otherwise, I would assume it went out midway through the DW formation, since when we see a DW forming at the end of Chapter 2, it happens gradually; Ergo, modems & routers & such disappear gradually as the DW forms, hence the internet going out as the DW forms, with lingering signals still being sent, leaving it only very briefly accessible before full downtime with the DW up.
This leads to the conclusion that Kris DIDN'T make the library computer lab's Dark World. (Even without the issues of how they break into the library, especially if SOUL-less.)

3. Signs seem to point to Kris making the DW at the end of Chapter 2 for their friends, rather than "bad intentions".

4. Ralsei resembles Kris's big brother Kris is separated from, Ralsei's fondness for hugs (Whereas Asgore notes that "you don't like hugs like that" after hugging Kris.), the dialogue after leaving Spamton Neo's basement where Kris doesn't take Ralsei's offer for comfort, but does take Susie's, & Susie tea healing more than twice as much as Ralsei Tea, not to mention seeming more fond of Susie tea than Ralsei's:

Kris Tea	Susie Tea	Ralsei Tea	Noelle Tea
Kris	S: (No reaction?) N: (... no reaction?)	S: STOP LOOKING AT ME! R: (They seem into it)	S: (No reaction?) R: (I'm happy!)	S: (...do they like it?) R: (They're drinking it...) N: (Umm, do they like it or not...?)

....So it seems likely Kris likes Susie more than Ralsei.
Kris is a fun-loving prankster, & so far they've had a stable level of risk in The Dark Worlds despite there being 2 fountains, with no new DWs being made, & the world not seeming at risk of being destroyed either day there've been 2 Fountains present. So combined with liking Ralsei less than Susie, who wants more adventures, Kris might just not care that much about Ralsei's warnings. Make DW, adventure, seal Fountain to appease Ralsei (But also to go home.), repeat.

5. Getting rid of the SOUL doesn't seem like something Kris has in mind, either because they can't function properly without it (They walk around lurched over, & their steps are jerky & staggered.), or because they want it for some reason, maybe because a SOUL is powerful in some ways. If they could function without their SOUL, why do they need it in them for inactivity like (faking?) sleep, or sitting still for hours?

6. Whenever Kris takes out the SOUL, they make sure to keep it from getting away; You can move the SOUL in the Chapter 1 ending, but the SOUL can't get out of the birdcage. Chapter 2, Kris puts it in a cabinet when they go outside & put the SOUL on the couch, barely a few feet from where they stab, & within sight, & Chapter 1 has them put it in a bird cage on a wagon that has "seen a few crashes"; If used to hold the SOUL before, & the wagon has crashed, Kris has probably sent the SOUL on those crashes, & learned they can't get rid of it.

7. How would Kris overthrow the 3 Kings of the Card Kingdom without being in the Dark World, meaning they should look the same, & thus, be recognized. There's no precedent for getting a different Dark World look, & we can't say "Kris=Knight lets them look different, & Kris=Knight because they can look different".

8. Jevil's insanity's logic is a stretch to explain saying The Knight's hand is approaching if Kris is The Knight, since Kris is already there. & it's absurd to say Jevil doesn't recognize strength, so if Kris IS The Knight, Jevil would recognize him by that.

9. Kris can ask Spamton about The Knight, & Spamton is initially open to it, but then gets stopped & panicked, implied communication with an outside source, likely The Knight; If Spamton is terrified of The Knight's disapproval, why would he be open to talking about it, or friendly to Kris? If Kris were The Knight, whom he's scared of, why would Spamton still talk to him, & not show fear?

10. Kris being The Knight doesn't make sense because they're Level 1, implying prior experience, & The Knight's goal seems to be to make fountains to destabilize & destroy the worlds. Susie finds out about a DW, take her in, kill her in The Dark World. Or, when Kris is alone, leave her there, since The Knight seems to be able to make & leave Dark Worlds without Sealing Fountains; No one would find her, & any investigation is a very temporary problem, since the Light World would be destroyed if they just leave & make more fountains
If Kris is The Knight, they don't NEED to feign ignorance & act scared of the hall closet's Darkness, & they're too strong to need Susie.

Spoilered in case people want to scroll past this quicker.

 

[Pepsiman25th]

https://vsbattles.com/threads/a-little-ole-spamton-crt.125476/ spamton crt for corruption

 

[Imaginym]

I noticed something recently, in Spamton's "KNIGHT" dialogue.

• SPEAKING OF [[Communion]]
• KRIS, DID YOU KNOW THAT THE KNIGHT...
• No, I'm sorry! I'm sorry! I didn't mean to --
• TOO MANY EXCESS VACATION DAYS?? TAKE A GOD DAMN VACATION STRAIGHT TO HELL

Spamton leads with "Speaking of", implying a relation to the previous topic, which is "About you" (Which is about Spamton himself.), so. He then says "Did you know", implying this is some sort of secret. As I see it, narratologically, there's at least these 2 interpretations:

A. Watsonian (In-Universe): Spamton thinks Kris doesn't know, or might be interested in knowing.
B. Doylist (Out-of-Universe): The topic is presented as a big secret to entice the audience, & this is also in part why it's written to be cut short. By this view, it COULD be a big reveal BECAUSE the info that cut-off was hidden from us.

Either way, there's still a big possibility Kris doesn't know the contents of what Spamton was about to reveal.

Firstly, "communion", has several definitions, but, AFAIK, only 1 seems to not be specific to a religion:

1. A joining together of minds or spirits.

(Though, Spamton puts Communion in brackets, with only the first letter capitalized, which is an alternative way to refer to "Holy Communion".)

1. A Christian sacrament commemorating the Last Supper of Christ, with the physical forms of bread and usually wine which are believed by certain denominations to become Christ himself or to host his spiritual presence.

(But, I'm unsure how that definition could be related to The Knight at all.)
Meanwhile, "commune" can mean:

Spoiler: Definitions of the word commune

Noun:

1. A small community, often rural, whose members share in the ownership of property, and in the division of labour; the members of such a community.
2. A local political division in many European countries.
3. (obsolete) The commonalty; the common people.(Can we find and add a quotation of Chaucer to this entry?)
4. (uncountable, obsolete) communion; sympathetic intercourse or conversation between friends

Verb:

1. To converse together with sympathy and confidence; to interchange sentiments or feelings; to take counsel.
2. (intransitive, followed by with) To communicate (with) spiritually; to be together (with); to contemplate or absorb.
   He spent a week in the backcountry, communing with nature.
3. (Christianity, intransitive) To receive the communion.

So Spamton knows about some kind of community, discussion, or spiritual meeting, & it's implied The Knight prevented him from talking about it.

Spamton says he's never seen a "heart-shaped object like yours before", for Kris's SOUL. If Kris is The Knight, why stop him? Kris is alone. & why would Spamton get hostile to Kris about the topic, if he fears them?
If the SOUL is The Knight & is "communing" with Kris, why stop Spamton talking? The SOUL is us, & is who who brought up the topic. & considering Kris knows of the SOUL in them, if Kris & the SOUL are the "communing" the Knight is involved in, they already know about what Spamton was about to say, & are alone. So why stop Spamton?
& why would information already be known be presented like a big secret to be kept hidden? I think Spamton was about to mention someone ELSE The Knight was "communing" with. I'm just not sure who.

That or he thinks Kris doesn't KNOW about the SOUL in him, but it's one of the very first things he mentions, & even without bringing this up, he ends up asking Kris for it as Spamton Neo in non-Weird Routes. That he asks KRIS to give it to him, & that he mentioned it to Kris before, tells us he probably doesn't think Kris knows about the SOUL, unless he thinks Kris somehow doesn't know about the SOUL conversing with them.

Ex: "Hey kid, you probably didn't know about this, but you're taking the orders you hear from a Heart-thing you didn't know you could hear."
IMHO, that'd be kind of absurd.

(Not to mention, if he can see the SOUL, it'd be weird for him to not recognize either as The Knight.)


So, for whom would Spamton think both:
1. It's a big & interesting secret that The Knight's been "communing" with....
& 2. ....that The Knight also wouldn't want Kris (Even when they're alone.) hearing about?

Was The Knight talking? Meeting?
(Heck, for all I know, this has something to do with Alvin from the church & his wondering if he's doing the right thing at the graveyard. He does say something about letting the Angel protect you, IIRC, but it's just a goodbye, I think, even if there might be a relation to "Banishing the Angel's Heaven".)


Pardon all my words, please.

 

[chosen]

So what are y'all thoughs on the fact bredly is implied able to create an fountain which has over 80 stars?

 

[RinneItachi]

Well, Berdly said he'd be using all of his Determination to make one. Monster's apparently have high amounts of DT, possibly on par with that of a human, and DT is capable of insane feats in certain instances, but it's also varying. A DT user doesn't consistently scale. Their peak feats are much higher than their strength otherwise.

And it's also questionable whether or not those can be considered real stars in the first place.

Not to mention that, even if they were, we have little reason to assume Berdly would make a world just as vast.

 

[Imaginym]

So what are y'all thoughs on the fact bredly is implied able to create an fountain which has over 80 stars?

Basis for a Star count of 80?

Well, Berdly said he'd be using all of his Determination to make one.

He did?

Monster's apparently have high amounts of DT, possibly on par with that of a human, and DT is capable of insane feats in certain instances, but it's also varying. A DT user doesn't consistently scale. Their peak feats are much higher than their strength otherwise.

Yeah, seemingly, especially if (the admittedly, self-admitted not-fully-informed Queen) is misinformed about all Lightners possessing Determination.

And it's also questionable whether or not those can be considered real stars in the first place.

I recall hearing something about the stars in the sky being inconsistent between screens or something. Do you recall the details against the stars being real?

Not to mention that, even if they were, we have little reason to assume Berdly would make a world just as vast.

Yeah, the only combat feats Berdly really has are.... Well, he is a boss who can take a good few hits, except from Snowgrave, which one-shots him, & in Pacifist Route, he probably still scales for being able to damage Kris & Noelle, as he can in the other routes, but he isn't taking hits in Pacifist.
But in terms of Determination, it's a little ambiguous if he'd scale in terms of world creation potency, I think. He seemed confident he could do it, at least, but we were denied proof that he could, & he's often comical & conceited, so his claims about his own abilities may need to be taken with a grain of salt.

That said, it may be notable, IIRC, that he attacks faster & may have more damaging attacks (IIRC) on Weird Route. Also, in behaviour, in Weird Route, Berdly targets Kris until they're down.

 

[chosen]

Basis for a Star count of

A dimension with that many stars is multi solar System iirc

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The "star" portion was already debunked in the on-going CRT. The moon is a baseball these stars are likely decoration too

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Shouldn't we wait until the main CRT is done before making Chapter 2 profiles, given how their statistics will be changed? Or can we go ahead and make them?

 

[ShockingPsychic]

Also, let's not assume monsters can make Fountains yet.

Kris is a human with a human soul (as said in the status menu), which thanks to Undertale, we know have Determination. We've only seen Kris open a Fountain, and haven't actually seen a monster do it, and given the nature of what we know so far, it's entirely possible they don't have the DT nessacary to actually create one.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Also, let's not assume monsters can make Fountains yet.

Kris is a human with a human soul (as said in the status menu), which thanks to Undertale, we know have Determination. We've only seen Kris open a Fountain, and haven't actually seen a monster do it, and given the nature of what we know so far, it's entirely possible they don't have the DT nessacary to actually create one.

The entire plot of chapter 2 was about Noelle and Berdly being strong enough to create fountains.
Also, no, this is not Undertale, ANY Lightner, Human or Monster, have Determination.

 

[RinneItachi]

Also, let's not assume monsters can make Fountains yet.

Kris is a human with a human soul (as said in the status menu), which thanks to Undertale, we know have Determination. We've only seen Kris open a Fountain, and haven't actually seen a monster do it, and given the nature of what we know so far, it's entirely possible they don't have the DT nessacary to actually create one.

Lightner's are regular people. And Lightner's can all make their own worlds using fountains. Berdly was about to as well, but Ralsei stopped him.

Undertale has extreme similarities and we know that a lot of stuff may transfer over, but it doesn't change the fact that this is a different game with different in-universe mechanics. Toby himself has been trying to express that they are not the same, even if they are linked. I mean, why doesn't Berdly turn to dust when they all return to the Lightworld?

 

[ShockingPsychic]

One theory is that Berdly has fallen down, which is the state monsters go into before death.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Yeah, Berdly not turning to dust is surely not a definitive argument towards any side, as Undertale has similar concepts as stated above.

I'll be playing on a Genocide save file when the next chapters come out, so I'll see how they handle Berdly's death

 

[chosen]

Yeah, Berdly not turning to dust is surely not a definitive argument towards any side, as Undertale has similar concepts as stated above.

I'll be playing on a Genocide save file when the next chapters come out, so I'll see how they handle Berdly death

He is just frozen he Doesn't became dust or something

 

[The_Almighty_Wholesome]

He is just frozen he Doesn't became dust or something

My theory is that he’ll be treated like he’s in a coma and he’ll be in the hospital replacing the guy on the right room due to being frozen and all.

 

[chosen]

My theory is that he’ll be treated like he’s in a coma and he’ll be in the hospital replacing the guy on the right room due to being frozen and all.

Pretty sure he wakes up fine after the ending of the game though might be wrong

 

[ChosenOrDeath]

Pretty sure he wakes up fine after the ending of the game though might be wrong

After the ending of the Snowgrave route, Berdly doesn't move at all.

Also Jevil never caught on with the fandom like Spamton did huh? I guess cause there's more to infer about his character and meeting him isn't an optional thing?

I feel like Spamton wanted freedom from being in a game and thought he needed Kris' soul to do it tbh. And Kris realizes too. There seems to be a parallel between Kris and Spamton regarding freedom and strings. I feel like Kris has no control over their body and wants to be free from the player aka "you" which is why they're making the dark fountains for some reason.

Hell, in the Snowgrave route fighting Spamton NEO, it even says Kris called for Susie/Ralsei until it gets to Noelle. Then it says "You" called for help.

 

[FinePoint]

Also Jevil never caught on with the fandom like Spamton did huh? I guess cause there's more to infer about his character and meeting him isn't an optional thing?

Jevil is really generic, to be honest.
Spamton really stands out as a unique and fun character, I think that's why.
Also more memeable.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Jevil is really generic, to be honest.

Joker-Type Character.

But yeah, despise preferring Spamton 110%, I won't accept Jevil slander, I'mma need those hands

 

[The_Almighty_Wholesome]

Yeah I agree. Although I like Jevil, Spamton’s story is the most tragic and at the same time he’s a fun character with a banger theme (I still like The World Revolving though). Also he has some of the most funniest and quotable quotes I have ever seen. I can’t be the only one that laughed when he said “YOU THINK MAKING [Frozen Chicken] WITH YOUR [Side Chick] IS GONNA LET YOU DRINK UP THAT [Sweet, Sweet] [Freedom Sauce]?”

 

[ChosenOrDeath]

Assuming a Snowgrave route continuation is possible for next chapter, I think each chapter will have Noelle kill a classmate since there are enough left for one per chapter exclusing Berdly, Noelle, Kris, and Susie. Ooo what if you can get her to kill her dad? Mom is more likely since she treats her worse but that'd be cool.

Personally I prefer Jevil's music lol tho he is more bland.