Deltarune Chapter 2 discussion!

[Imaginym]

There is one feat I remember that might be Tier 9. But I'm pretty sure it doesn't scale to anyone.

Rudy says, in part, "Your dad was no party animal. Your MOTHER on the other hand...! Whoo! She'd always fuss about going, but once the party started... Yikes, man! Once she hit me clear across the room with a key lime pie! I got smashed into the snack table and toppled everything! Tasty pie though. Couldn't complain."

Of course, even ignoring some unknowns (How old was Toriel? How fit? Rudy? Was he near the onset of whatever's had the hospital testing him 2 days in a row for? I mean, probably not, but....)

There's also the possibility it was a very fragile table.
Or that Rudy is just heavy; Deer are heavy, & I'd assume reindeer are, too. Heavy enough to "topple" a snack table?

Though, there's still the matter of being "hit clear across the room": Is this about the distance the pie was thrown, or did the impact launch him?

Either way, IRL humans struggle to even get near Wall Level in AP, & considering this MIGHT get to 9-C or better....

 

[BatFellow]

I'm not sure how much this should be taken into account when it comes to "Weird Route," but I figure it is worth mentioning.

[SPOILERS FOR WEIRD ROUTE, I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO DO A SPOILER TAG.]



If you refuse to kill Berdly, and then back track, you have the option to use Snow Grave on a regular enemy. Doing so gives you a near-identical attack animation, but instead of turning into solid ice, the enemies will disintegrate into a bloody mist.

I'm wondering if we should consider that while considering the power of Snow Grave. Of course, mice are going to be weaker than Berdly even if we may not believe it deep down, but the difference between 'disintegrate into blood mist' and 'frozen in ice crystal' is not unnoticeable.

 

[RinneItachi]

How **** Toby that's brutal lmao. Some fatality shit.

 

[BatFellow]

Agreed. TV Tropes claims this was patched out, but that video was only posted yesterday.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

The Instant Charged Shot bug now makes Spamton NEO Stronger, so he should also have Rage Power

 

[RinneItachi]

The Instant Charged Shot bug now makes Spamton NEO Stronger, so he should also have Rage Power

I love how he doesn't just remove it but makes it a legitimate mechanic. That's why we love Toby.

 

[The_Almighty_Wholesome]

When we make a Spamton profile, what would be a good VS match for him?

 

[Jimmy.robinson.5099]

When we make a Spamton profile, what would be a good VS match for him?

I don't know... Mettaton?

 

[The_Almighty_Wholesome]

I don't know... Mettaton?

Maybe. I’ll see if I can make a VS thread on that after Spamton’s gets made.

 

[Imaginym]

Yay, I found videos that show off (most of) the Shadow Crystal & Glass's descriptions.

Spoiler: I dunno how to disable Youtube videos automatically embedding

"A sharp shadow moves like water in the hand. You have collected [1]."
"You held the crystal up to your eye. For some strange reason, for just a brief moment... You thought you saw the computer lab. ...but, it must've just been your imagination."
"You held the crystal up to your eye. ... but nothing happened."
Sadly, IDK what the drop text is.

Spoiler: I dunno how to disable Youtube videos automatically embedding

Glass is a Light World item, but a bug made it inaccessible until Version 1.06. IDK if it does anything different if you use it without Susie while near or in the police station; She leaves you alone if you go there.
But the video as is shows this text:
INFO: "There is a small shard of something in your pocket. It feels like glass, but..."
USE: "You looked through the glass. For some strange reason, for just a brief moment. You thought you saw Susie glaring at you, coldly... But when you moved the glass away, You see her smiling and making a rude gesture."
DROP: "You didn't quite understand why... But, the thought of discarding it felt very wrong."

The glass doesn't show up in your inventory until Version 1.06, supposedly due to a bug the Wiki didn't explain. You may wish to download the update, if you haven't already, &/or back up older versions before doing so. (For example, if you want to compare older versions. Or just don't like dealing with extra difficulty for using the Multiple Big Shots Exploit.)

One other weird thing is that even if you get Jevil's SC 2nd, after getting Spamton's & using THAT to trigger Seam explaining them to you, Jevil's STILL won't show up in your inventory. Maybe a bug?
But since Spamton's lets us look at the computer lab, I wanna know what Jevil's would let us look at.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Kris deserves Cloth Manipulation. As seen here, they're able to instantly change their and Noelle's outfits to nurse uniforms instantaneously, with the latter looking confused as to how it happened.

 

[EnderLord8]

Could someone please explain this to me: "You thought you saw Susie glaring at you, coldly..." It happens on the Snowgrove route or...

 

[Imaginym]

Could someone please explain this to me: "You thought you saw Susie glaring at you, coldly..." It happens on the Snowgrove route or...

Dunno if it's different on the Snowgrave Route vs Pacifist Route, but it's from the same INFO result as "But when you moved the glass away, You see her smiling and making a rude gesture.", so it might not have anything to do with your route & always be the same.

Anyone wanna test the Glass on Pacifist vs Snowgrave? (Or other routes, if they exist.)

 

[Agnaa]

I have little interest in revising the verse, but I'd like to let y'all know that this calc that's currently used to give 9-B+ is very wack. Wasn't accepted, was recalc'd at 9-B, you don't turn the volume of a cylinder into the volume of a sphere and then get the radius of that sphere for explosion feats, that's a ******* pure-white energy beam created by a scythe not an explosion.

Another feat should be figured out to base scaling off of. afaik there isn't a shortage of low-end 9-B feats.

 

[Lacku]

Is it possible for Noelles snowgrave to be calced?

 

[FinePoint]

Is it possible for Noelles snowgrave to be calced?

I don't think so... it can be scaled to 7.5x Berdly while debating a versus thread though, I believe.

 

[InfiniteDay]

There was a calc on it I believe https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:GodlyCharmander/Noelle_commits_murder

 

[Lou_change]

I don't think so... it can be scaled to 7.5x Berdly for the sake of versus battles though, I believe.

No that is not how one shoting works I believe the page we have on it explains that.

 

[Lacku]

There was a calc on it I believe https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:GodlyCharmander/Noelle_commits_murder

pretty great feat for the verse but it shouldnt scale to anybody else, also is noelle even capable of casting it without the use of kris?

 

[FinePoint]

No that is not how one shoting works I believe the page we have on it explains that.

It doesn't upgrade his tier on the page, but it does when debating.

 

[Agnaa]

It doesn't upgrade his tier on the page, but it does when debating.

No it doesn't. 7.5x is for calced value vs calced value. It doesn't mean every canonical one-shot is a 7.5x multi in debates.

 

[FinePoint]

No it doesn't. 7.5x is for calced value vs calced value. It doesn't mean every canonical one-shot is a 7.5x multi in debates.

I see... well it upscales from Berdly to an unknown degree then.
It doesn't seem realistically possible to calculate accurately.
It's impossible to tell how much energy goes into freezing him versus how much goes into the visual effects. I don't think they're the same.

 

[Agnaa]

You can calculate the energy Noelle produced. Calculating how much goes into freezing Berdly isn't all that important since he dies from it.

 

[Lacku]

I see... well it upscales from Berdly to an unknown degree then.
It doesn't seem realistically possible to calculate accurately.
It's impossible to tell how much energy goes into freezing him versus how much goes into the visual effects. I don't think they're the same.

I swear there was a way to calculate someone freezing a person whole used for characters like sub zero but maybe I'm misremembering things, even if there was Berdly was frozen in a diamond of ice not just his body so that might make it either easier or harder to calc.

 

[FinePoint]

You can calculate the energy Noelle produced. Calculating how much goes into freezing Berdly isn't all that important since he dies from it.

I suppose that's fair to get a minimum, since the she needs to at LEAST be strong enough to produce all the visuals which go with it.
Have any calc members evaluated it yet?

 

[FinePoint]

I swear there was a way to calculate someone freezing a person whole used for characters like sub zero but maybe I'm misremembering things, even if there was Berdly was frozen in a diamond of ice not just his body so that might make it either easier or harder to calc.

My problem with just calculating how much to freeze a bird of his size is that Noelle freezes a lot of other enemies in ice but they don't die.
So, the implication is that just freezing them normally isn't enough, and Snowgrave is doing something more than that.

Or it means that Snowgrave is way colder, at which point it's hard to quantify how much colder versus the other ice.

 

[Lacku]

My problem with just calculating how much to freeze a bird of his size is that Noelle freezes a lot of other enemies in ice but they don't die.
So, the implication is that just freezing them normally isn't enough, and Snowgrave is doing something more than that.

Or it means that Snowgrave is way colder, at which point it's hard to quantify how much colder versus the other ice.

That's true but it would be handy to understand what she's capable of with the snow ring/normal route, also when we eventually get around to making a Noelle page we should have two keys, one for her base/with snow ring and the other for the snowgrave route/with thorn ring since I think were going to be seeing two very different Noelles in future chapters depending on which route the player took in Chapter 2

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I don't think they would need two keys, as the statistics would be the exact same, save for a single attack. We should just have a note at the bottom of her page maybe?

 

[Agnaa]

You could give a separate statistic for "With Snowgrave", and list the special ring in optional equipment.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Queen's wires absorb life-force.

 

[Imaginym]

I don't think they would need two keys, as the statistics would be the exact same, save for a single attack. We should just have a note at the bottom of her page maybe?

IIRC, every time you win a battle with Iceshock, it says Noelle became stronger. Her stats also increase to reflect this.
Her descriptions in the menu change, too:

• Kris's status menu description changes to LV 2 Leader; "Commands." and Noelle's description changes to LV 2 Frostmancer; "Freezes the enemy."
• After equipping the Thorn Ring, Noelle's description changes to LV 2 Ice Trancer; "Receives pain to become stronger."

She also gets new animations after equipping the Freeze Ring.

• When Noelle gets hit, she does not react.
• When Noelle attacks, she mimics casting a spell instead of frantically waving her hands.
• When Noelle defends, she constructs an ice wall instead of covering her eyes with her hands.
• When Noelle ACTs with TakeCareX, she doesn't fall over.
• Upon victory, Noelle appears to pray, and surrounds herself with a blue, snowglobe-like orb.

Her statistics almost certainly aren't "the exact same", considering she's explicitly stronger with multiple differences in stats, given what the game tells us, & her behaviour changes. (Not to mention, she uses Ice Manipulation in at least 1 new way, to create a wall of ice.)
& defeating enemies making you "stronger" is a thing alluded to a good few times in gameplay.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

So would a Snowgrave key have "At least" next to the tier?

 

[Imaginym]

So would a Snowgrave key have "At least" next to the tier?

For what it's worth, I would assume so.

How many distinct battles are required for a complete Snowgrave/Weird Route? Because at the end of each of those battles, she becomes "stronger", albeit, by a seemingly unknown amount.
It may also be good to compare Noelle's stats & the growth of them across the route. Her max HP pre route is 90, & at the end of a full route, it's what, 160? If we were to base it off the HP values (A bit sketchy, since it might be considered game mechanics without basis to use HP that way.), but....
160 / 90 = 1.778 or so.

'course, if we were to calc, the yield of Snowgrave is also probably more than the yield of Iceshock by a lot more than 1.78x. Or at least, so I'd assume if Iceshock were to be somehow calc'd & compared against Snowgrave. (The latter of which, I know, already has a calc.)

Nonetheless, whether any of those methods would work or not to help estimate how much stronger Noelle is after a full Weird/"Snowgrave" Route, I think it's clear she's stronger than normally. So an At Least is probably necessary.
IIRC, she gains like 4 HP at the end of each battle, but I'm not sure if it's per enemy (There's 20 enemies to freeze but IDK how Noelle gets stronger at the end of each BATTLE, so IDK how many battles she needs to do.) or how other stats change.

 

[Lacku]

I don't if this has been discussed yet but are there any additions to main trios powers and abilities that should be made?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I don't if this has been discussed yet but are there any additions to main trios powers and abilities that should be made?

Multiple new powers discussed in the CRT

 

[Lacku]

Multiple new powers discussed in the CRT

link?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

link?

here

 

[Lacku]

here

thanks!

 

[Imaginym]

Update 1.07 has been released.
One observed part of this version, seemingly new to it, is the ability to go to bed at the start of Chapter 2 to skip to Cyber World:

 

[Imaginym]

The image in that link shows a detailed list of some notable changes in the chapter. You may find some of them spoilery.