DC/Vertigo Cosmology Redo (Part 2 of 2)

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Hi, this thread is meant to be a continuation of part one which went on for a while. Due to it being derailed and over redundantly long, I decided to split the remaining portion here with whatever is left to evaluate.

Here is part one for reference:

DC/Vertigo Cosmology Redo(Part 1 of 2)

Please elaborate regarding why you disagree here, Deagonx. 🙏

vsbattles.com

So this thread will focus on what has not been accepted during the first part:

• J.M. DeMatteis's portion will simply go over the material/gross plane and the spiritual/mental plane of existence.
• The Vertigo portion during part one was accepted. So this portion is intended strictly for High 1-A and some changes alongside additions for the Vertigo part of the Cosmology.

J.M. DeMatteis:​

Now to roughly get a gist of what is required to get 1-A is somewhat summed up in this FAQ discussing qualitative superiority. A good idea of this that complements the work of DeMatteis is summed here with one of the qualifications:

Potential mediums for viewing a cosmology as fiction include: written media (Books or stories), images (Paintings, comics, or movies), data (Simulations or video games), or mental constructs (thoughts or dreams). All of the above would be considered less 'real' than the person who views the cosmology as such, and can directly imply qualitative superiority. Note that the medium is usually a representation or container for the fiction on a higher plane and not necessarily the fiction in itself.

Well, given the majority of DeMatteis’s work revolves around the idea that everything is just a dream folded infinitely:

Fan: Sir, I've read your Silver Surfer work. In that comics, you introduced the concept of the Universe folded inside infinite dreams. As far as I know, you have introduced a similar concept in DC Comics. Are the two concepts intended to be the same?
J.M. DeMatteis: Yes in a general, philosophical way.

So this roughly gives us the idea that the whole of Creation is simply a dream dreamt by God. In that, the Universe itself is composed of layers of dreams on different planes of existence. Which was pretty much what the Cosmology blog for the section reserved for DeMatteis covered:

DC Comics Cosmology

This page is dedicated to outlining the distinctions between DC Comics's different cosmologies. To summarize, the DC Universe has three dominant cosmologies characterized primarily (but not exclusively) by their authors: Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, and Joshua Williamson; J.M...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Now this idea is covered within comics as well. One of the aspects of Spectre-Prime had said throughout Creation that there are limitless planes of existence. (The Spectre Vol.4 #27) This is important given that when Materna went with Helen to discover some of these planes, she had said that the material is the simplest level of Creation and that there are realms in between that connect the material to the spiritual Universes deeper within Creation. This is important because “planes” just refer to the higher realms within the material universes before entering the deeper, truer dreams within the spiritual universes which gives us an indication of a “layering” happening in both the planes of material and spiritual. (The Spectre Vol.4 #18) This is important because Hal Jordan himself realizes that they are dreamers of their own story in that everything we see is a dream within a dream, and this process never ends. (Green Lantern: Willworld Vol.1 #1)

When Eric Strauss was the duality of love with Linda Strauss. When he met the “Avatar” who was God incarnate and was designed after the spiritual avatar “Meher Baba.” The Avatar sent him across the spiritual worlds and when he did he saw many Heavens of the conventional sense, but there are indeed even more Heaven that were beyond conventional uses as he described that a soul would journey and descend through millions of worlds and thousands of planes, giving us that everything is indeed a dream of something else and at the core of Creation; an Ocean of Dream from man to God and back for innumerable lifetimes and reincarnation. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #17)

This is important because, in the spiritual realm, you transcend the need for a physical body. Purely, realms of energy where the souls reach closer to the oneness of God. This is evident since “days” are not conventional there and they are beyond what we consider the concept of day in the materal realm as such in Indra Fourth Heaven, which exists above, within, and beyond the world simultaneously. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #8) As we said earlier, still there are things beyond Heaven, and Heaven itself is layered as is the entirety of Creation with the Ocean of Dreams beneath them where the worlds, duality, and life came from. (Doctor Fate Vol.2 #6) Remember, Heavens are just reflections of a truer Heaven, Spectre saw Heaven yet he knew it was just a shadow of the shadow of true Heaven. (Spectre Vol.1 #1)

Now, when Hal Jordan as the Spectre made a Nexus to connect all realities. He went into one of these worlds and saw that it had its own Earth, but more importantly, it was connected by the pure energy of the spiritual realm in these parallel worlds since even thoughts can create worlds. (The Spectre Vol.4 #8)

Material Realm:​

Before:

Tiering: There are infinite universes and parallel dimensions, each decision forms new universes all the time. All multiversal feats are 2-A.

After:

Tiering: There are infinite universes and parallel dimensions, each decision forms new universes all the time. The material plane is just the debased level of Creation called the Gross Plane. Everything in Creation is a result of a dream in a dream. The material plane encompasses all the simplest levels driven by the five senses. Due to its relation to being just a dream in the higher planes, it would warrant a 1-A rating, and because there's limitless potential and possibility. Its hierarchical positing pivots a hierarchy of R>F transcendence thus the “+” modifier can be used. So any Multiversal feat of any degree affecting the material plane is 1-A and total destruction is 1-A+.

Metaphysical Plane:​

Before:

Tiering: The higher planes of existence have "days" which transcend day and "places" which transcend place, each of them being truer and deeper than the Material World, giving 1 degree of infinity above Low 2-C, making Heaven and the Collective Unconscious Low 1-C.

After:

Tiering: The higher planes of existence have "days" which transcend day and "places" which transcend place, each of them being truer and deeper then the Material World, giving them a meta-transcendence nature and a superior level of existence. This means any higher plane including Heaven, Hell, and the Collective Unconscious would be High 1-A. Since like the Material World, the Metaphysical planes are layered as each Heaven is simply a projection of the mind, and there are things beyond conventional Heaven where Souls turn into pure energy called the Ocean of Dreams or the Love-Sea.

Also, check this thread which goes into detail about each part in case you want more information:

J.M. DeMatteis Cosmology Revision

Hi, guys, this post is in regard to pointing out and structuring of J.M. DeMatteis's Cosmology with what he has written in his stories. Before we begin, I would like to mention that this specifically goes with what he had said within the story and a few linking points in some interviews, talks...

vsbattles.com

Vertigo:​

The main premise for this Cosmology would come from scaling the Dreaming. This will be very important to getting High 1-A for the Vertigo portion of the Cosmology.

The Dreaming:​

The Dreaming as we know is the birthplace of imagination, stories, and everything not real ruled over by the Dream King, Daniel Hall(previously Morpheus). It is described as a place that is not a place, where from it are dreams and nightmares with the latter being born from the Shores of Nightmare where archetypes are constantly being dreamed and formed. (The Sandman Universe: Nightmare Country Vol.1 #1) The Dreaming is an idea, a realm beyond time and memory. (The Dreaming: Waking Hours Vol.1 #1) In the Dreaming, shadows of illusion remembering the Dreaming itself are dreams within dreams. (The Dreaming: Waking Hours Vol.1 #4) A Vortex called Rose Walker was messing with the Dreaming, so much so that she could control and see the dreams of her friends. This includes Chantal and her infinitely regressing looping story. Minds and dreams of paradise which are more real than anything that is seen within the waking world, dreams could create and shape entire worlds with the potential to change the landscape of the Dreaming and possibly Creation itself. (The Sandman Vol.2 #15) In the Dreaming, there are tiny worlds made in the Land of the Dreaming, and even beyond those worlds are bigger worlds beyond the tiny ones in the Lands. (Sandman Vol.2 #36) Dreams are very real things, that are not made of matter but of viewpoints, images, and memory. (The Sandman Vol.2 #5) As such when Dream who embodies the Dreaming dies, it has a rippling effect across all space, time, and myth including a reality storm that is felt even at the end of time, of the Inn of Worlds. (The Sandman Vol.2 #56) Cain and Abel in Chinese mythological stories described Morpheus’s power to transmute things from formlessness and shapelessness into that-which-was-not-real, but without which the real would have no meaning. (The Sandman: Dream Hunters Vol.1 #3)

Now the portion for the needed baseline of existence and a framework of hierarchy of 1-A comes from the timeless place that is not a place of the Dreaming containing Dream’s greatest gift; Mystery and Secrets. (The Dreaming Vol.1 #35)

The House of Mystery:​

As Cain has said mysteries outnumbered secrets due to the nature of mysteries being potentially greater and more numerous. In fact, the currency of the realm is stories. (The House of Mystery Vol.2 #1) These stories are one of many potential possible worlds from which each one is treated as more real than real. One of these stories tells about an eternal war between cats and birds. In a realm before and beyond Heaven, Hell, and even Eden where beetles roll infinitesimal dungs that contain entire Universes. (House of Mystery Vol.2 #7) Connecting all these possible stories/worlds is a place called the Space Between connecting all these infinite stories and worlds. (House of Mystery Vol.2 #12) This place is not a place that exists in between all things even one where the Universe is shaped as an infinite piece of artwork by aliens and the “War.” (The House of Mystery Vol.2 #11) Some stories link with consciousness to obtain oneness with everything. (House of Mystery Vol.2 #27) All these stories are conceptions or ideas purely, but there's an omniety(allness) that connects and unifies everything into a whole dissolving all stories into one point. Thus not even the Conception can gaze upon the final aesthetic design of an all-pervading story. (House of Mystery Vol.2 #34) Each of these stories I mentioned earlier is supposedly more real as one of them includes this archetypal forest surrounded by unreality on all sides. Omniety being finality binds all things in perfect unison to a reality that's more real than reality itself, the best of all possible stories and worlds. The House contains all these stories with every story told in that condensed reality layered upon itself in its very wall. (House of Mystery Vol.2 #39) The House produced many endless permutations and children emanating itself through different aspects across all worlds. The House itself is referred to as an ontological diagesis(superior plot) within its walls containing billions of universes(stories).

Now, the Dreaming contains the House and all of its stories. Since stories are born of the Dreaming and infinity multiplicity of stories. (The Dreaming Vol.1 #60). As I mentioned earlier these are baseline levels of existence where they are considered real as the waking world, just that their story is only as real as the teller tells it as seen as a reoccurring element in the House of Mystery story. This is all contained within Lucien Library which contains stories that have never been written, are as real as anything else, and are born even when the thought of stories is potential from the human mind.

Totality of Creation:​

The Totality of Creation is the structure comprising the all-encompassing Universe, a term that Carey and Gaimen love to use it. For example, when Gadium, a fallen Cherbium, was in the material Universe, he assumed physical form because that's how it is in the most debased level of Creation. The Queen of Faerie has stated that the worlds of the unreal are what power the real and that they matter in the importance of Creation. That each world in these spiritual realms has more worlds beneath them and there are as many of these realms as there are Hells and fields of Paradise. (Books of Magic Vol.1 #3) From the Sea of Chaos/Nothingness, all levels of existence emerge and will return. There are Soft Places even leading into the timeless Void or that Sea to which even the Endless return to the nothingness begets everything. (The Sandman Universe: Thessaly: Witch for Hire Vol.1 #3)

God:​

This section is reserved for Yahweh, but, I'll break down some nuisances. In Cosmology, it was affirmed Yahweh is not the true supreme creator of all things outside his own Creation. While this is true, there are some missing keys to fill in that “Yahweh” is simply an emanation of something greater. This is evidently clear since he, himself, claims he only takes shapes through the aspect in which he “acts” to interact with his creation without destroying their minds. Even Lucifer is weary that Yahweh is simply taking shapes and what we know and see of him is not the entire entity. (Lucifer Vol.1 #75)

This is a common element. As Yahweh, he is the Eloha of Judha. In the Brothers in Arm storyline, Garames Koprogentios had said that the God of the Covenant, or any God of Creation get his image through rewards and punishment. By stepping into his space, they wanted to replace the mantle of Yahweh and now call themselves Elohim(plural for Eloha). They went back in time to cement themselves as God that saved the Israelites from war hence making their image as God as being the case since the name Yahweh is only as old as the Judaic faith. (Lucifer Vol.1 #42)

There's the rub, Yahweh by name is just a few thousand years old despite being outside time and age. How is this possible? Well, like Yahweh, Lucifer has an older name in the Navajo belief system. Belief supplements God with shape but it does not create his essence. Yahweh in an analogy explains to Lucifer the story by the Chinese philosopher Wu’Cheng-En of the Buddha and the Monkey King. While the story itself isn’t the exact direct comparison, the idea was meant to depict the relationship between Yahweh and Lucifer. No matter how much Lucifer tries he will never escape Yahweh's will because it extends even to the Void. Why? That's because Yahweh's true shape is the Void, the analogy is comparing Lucifer’s journey to the best predestination by escaping God into the Void which is highlighted by the Monkey King that he thought he could escape Buddha by jumping to the edge of existence. So in essence, the story is meant to say even in the Void, Yahweh holds all the pieces even that timeless realm. This is evident because the exact description of the Void being infinite and eternal was used to describe Yahweh in the same issue with the name notion that he is more than what he is, simply having shape by the external forces of dreams creating their idea of God. (Lucifer Vol.1 #75)

This isn't new. See in the Sandman: Overture comics. The monks of Klaa believe that the entire Universe is a simple distraction in the mind of God. As Creation is nothing but a mere distraction alongside everything else when God thinks to move into the next level of divinity, would wash away everything as ideas drift across the Void. Yes, that's right, it's saying that God’s mind is simply just the Void, and his thoughts all these ideas, and Creation itself. (The Sandman: Overture Vol.1 #4)

This is quite funny because it was stated by the Urs-God that in the timeless place outside of existence. A Monad emanated all of Creation. (The Dreaming Vol.2 #11) In the same comic, later on, express the Unknowable from Kabbalah with this description which is similar to how they described God/Ein Sof and his unconcealed will, the Keter:

…There comes an answer. From the highest sphere it emanates. From the boundless apogee mystics call the Keter. Unknowable, irreducible, and all-encompassing.

The Presence’s Creation:​

Before:

As the Presence's creation contains the domains of the Endless, as separate but encompassed extensions of realms that exist within his creation. Also, the Presence domain contains infinite timelines, dimensions, and realms, the material world is often regarded as the debased level of Creation. All feats involving the entire structure are 1-A.

After:

As the Presence's creation contains the domains of the Endless, as separate but encompassed extensions of realms that exist within his creation. Also, the Presence domain contains infinite timelines, dimensions, and realms, the material world is often regarded as the debased level of Creation. All feats involving the entire structure are High 1-A.

Heaven, Silver City, and Hell:​

Before:

The Silver City/Heaven and Hell are 1-A. Realms such as these are described to be beyond physical measure as such concepts are deemed useless there. Heaven predates Creation and the Silver City, a part of Heaven, sees the Universe below it as glistens and glitters of stars and nebulae like that of a child’s toy. Each soul harbors millions of Heaven and the afterlife contains the likes of the Mansions of Silence.

After:

The Silver City/Heaven and Hell are High 1-A. Realms such as these are described to be beyond physical measure as such concepts are deemed useless there. Heaven predates Creation and the Silver City, a part of Heaven, sees the Universe below it as glistens and glitters of stars and nebulae like that of a child’s toy. Each soul harbors millions of Heaven and the afterlife contains the likes of the Mansions of Silence.

Before:

All Endless: Delirium, Despair, Desire, Destruction, Dreamare 1-A. The Endless are the primal truths of the Presence's creation and oversees every aspect of it. Dream's oldest incarnation exists outside of space and time and is a part of the eldritch abominations that exist in space beneath space and space beyond space.

After:

All Endless: Delirium, Despair, Desire, Destruction, Dream are High 1-A. The Endless are the primal truths of the Presence's creation and oversees every aspect of it. Dream's oldest incarnation exists outside of space and time and is a part of the eldritch abominations that exist in space beneath space and space beyond space.

The Basanos:​

Before:

The Basanos are 1-A. As seen above, the Basanos are meant to mimic Destiny's book and the lenses through which all infinite possibilities of Creation are focused. They are a considerable threat to the likes of the Archangels and can harm Lucifer.

After:

The Basanos are High 1-A. As seen above, the Basanos are meant to mimic Destiny's book and the lenses through which all infinite possibilities of Creation are focused. They are a considerable threat to the likes of the Archangels and can harm Lucifer.

The Council of the First Place:​

Before:

The Council of the First Circle are 1-A. They predate the Presence's creation and made the its laws and the rules which the Endless follow[210] and Glory and was unaffected when reality, The Endless and Destiny's Book was rewritten by the dreams and imaginations of a thousand dreamers.

After:

The Council of the First Circle are High 1-A. They predate the Presence's creation and made the its laws and the rules which the Endless follow[210] and Glory and was unaffected when reality, The Endless and Destiny's Book was rewritten by the dreams and imaginations of a thousand dreamers.

Mother Night and Father Time:​

Before:

Night and Time are 1-A. They predate all versions of Creation that were changed by dreams, their interplay is what made all versions of Creation possible, and they are the source of the reality-changing power of dreams which can retroactively change Creation and create gods, including the Presence. Night is in a place of untime and unspace beyond all events horizon where she lacks any concepts: dreams, light, information. Time is the primal motion that pushed Creation into coming, as he gave Destiny his book, and sees all of Creation as one single continuum as he existed beyond the change of Creation before and after Morpheus fixed it.

After:

Night and Time are High 1-A. They predate all versions of Creation that were changed by dreams, their interplay is what made all versions of Creation possible, and they are the source of the reality-changing power of dreams which can retroactively change Creation and create gods, including the Presence. Night is in a place of untime and unspace beyond all events horizon where she lacks any concepts: dreams, light, information. Time is the primal motion that pushed Creation into coming, as he gave Destiny his book, and sees all of Creation as one single continuum as he existed beyond the change of Creation before and after Morpheus fixed it.

Mansions of Silence:​

Before:

The Mansions of Silence are 1-A. The realm beyond conventional Heaven and located in the eastern border in which the world and metaphysical plane meet called “Armeggdeon Plain.” This structure contains mirrors of illusions that were once Creations of the Presence and its multiplicity of infinity.

After:

The Mansions of Silence are High 1-A. The realm beyond conventional Heaven and located in the eastern border in which the world and metaphysical plane meet called “Armeggdeon Plain.” This structure contains mirrors of illusions that were once Creations of the Presence and its multiplicity of infinity.

The Presence and the Archangels:​

Before:

• The Presence/Yahweh is 1-A. He is the creator of Creation and all higher realms such as Heaven and Hell. He created all the Archangels and can easily destroy them and he defined every variable, the physical rules with his own will. Everything happens because he makes it happen. There's a rub since it was revealed that everything shown through what we see of Yahweh, is simply a manifestation of an aspect from a truer being. This is why Yahweh told Lucifer in an analogy that all things even the Void are part of his greater being and goes on to describe himself as “infinite and eternal” the same description used by Lucifer to describe the “Void.” Dreams gave faith and substances to this changeless and formless being, that permeates all things in the Void as simply a piece of him even when Lucifer metaphorically jumps across the Universe into the Void to create a Creation, the Presence will still work there. So while, Yahweh is 1-A, due to the possibility of just being a simple emanation of a greater being that scales to the Void and possible surpasses it will warrant two layers into 1-A for surpassing Creation and the Archangels.

After:

• The Presence/Yahweh is High 1-A. He is the creator of Creation and all higher realms such as Heaven and Hell. He created all the Archangels and can easily destroy them and he defined every variable, the physical rules with his own will. Everything happens because he makes it happen. There's a rub since it was revealed that everything shown through what we see of Yahweh, is simply a manifestation of an aspect from a truer being. This is why Yahweh told Lucifer in an analogy that all things even the Void are part of his greater being and goes on to describe himself as “infinite and eternal” the same description used by Lucifer to describe the “Void.” Dreams gave faith and substances to this changeless and formless being, that permeates all things in the Void as simply a piece of him even when Lucifer metaphorically jumps across the Universe into the Void to create a Creation, the Presence will still work there. So while, Yahweh is High 1-A, due to the possibility of just being the simple emanation of a greater being that scales to the Void and possibly surpasses it will warrant possibly two layers into High 1-A for surpassing Creation and the Archangels.

Before:

The Demiurgic Archangels such as Michael and Lucifer are 1-A. They scale to Heaven which transcends the 1-A material Creation. Lucifer is far more powerful than Dream of the Endless.[205]Space-time is an extension of the mind of Will which Lucifer embodies, and he destroyed Logos with a touch which is the first word which sung all of existence into being.[206] It was stated that Elaine should push the "absence of space" of the Void in order create a new cosmos which should mean that she can affect the Void. Elaine with Demiurgic powers scales to Michael and Michael scales to Lucifer.

After:

The Demiurgic Archangels such as Michael and Lucifer are High 1-A. They scale to Heaven which transcends the Creation. Lucifer is far more powerful than Dream of the Endless.[205]Space-time is an extension of the mind of Will which Lucifer embodies, and he destroyed Logos with a touch which is the first word which sung all of existence into being.[206] It was stated that Elaine should push the "absence of space" of the Void in order create a new cosmos which should mean that she can affect the Void. Elaine with Demiurgic powers scales to Michael and Michael scales to Lucifer.

The Void:​

Before:

The Void is 1-A as it is beyond space-time and the hierarchy of dimensions and transcends it completely. Encompassing and surpassing the totality of Creation, Night, Time, and all Creation not filling even a portion of its infinity as they amount to 0 to a portion they can fill up. Completely transcends levels of Creation and all the ones as insignificant things that fill and teem the Void with life.

After:

The Void is High 1-A+ as it is beyond space-time and the hierarchy of dimensions and transcends it completely. Encompassing and surpassing the totality of Creation, Night, Time, and all Creation not filling even a portion of its infinity as they amount to 0 to a portion they can fill up. Completely transcends levels of Creation and all the ones as insignificant things that fill and teem the Void with life.

TL;DR(Summary and Inquiry):​

For anyone who wants simplistic reasoning and short explanations here it is.

J.M. DeMatteis:​

• An Outerversal+ material plane comes from the fact that the baseline level of existence is just a mere thought of a higher dream as mentioned by Willworld. Everything is a dream within a dream each one level with less substance separating the lower dreams as opposed to more deeper when reaching near God.
• A High Outerversal metaphysical plane comes from the fact that it transcends the notion of the dream hierarchy of the lower plane as nothing more than then dreams from which these dreamers have the power to create with just a thought. As shown the worlds from which souls turn into pure energy could dream of worlds containing their own Earth(material) and Heaven(spiritual).

Vertigo:​

• The Dreaming contains the House of Mystery; which contains infinite stories of possible worlds. From here, is the baseline level of existence, and everything told in the House is infinitely layered upon themselves in its wall. The Dreaming itself sees all these stories as a baseline of real beyond real as it itself is beyond these stories as mere possible stories from which it contains and encompasses. The layering is a 1-A hierarchy of stories that are more real and transcend those stories given it's beyond what separates each level of R>F. So High 1-A.
• God is immutable hence why it is described as unknowable. Not to mention a clear Monad from which the Void is simply in its mind. Yahweh's message and story description mean two things; he is the Void or the Void is simply a piece of him. So 0.

So for God, we can use the Presence profile for two or three keys depending on what seems logical from the story.

Proposal 1: Yahweh | True Shape | God/Monad(whichever fits better)
Proposal 2: Yahweh | True Shape(God/Monad)

 

[GrandSho]

Proposal 2 makes sense. There is more indication regarding the nature of Presence that I will reply a bit after checking.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Proposal 2 makes sense. There is more indication regarding the nature of Presence that I will reply a bit after checking.

I just fixed something. I decided to change the Void tiering to High 1-A+. So the first proposal in this instant makes sense.

Yahweh would be one layer above baseline High 1-A for transcending Creation. Then his true shape is the Void, thus would be High 1-A+ in that regard. God would straight up just be flat 0.

 

[Hirotoswnn1x]

Proposal 2 looks finely and simpler. Make his profile not cluttered and we'll have an additional key divine presence, right?

 

[GrandSho]

Anyway, even in Lucifer we are brought to the idea that Yahweh is a "finite" extension of the "infinite" being beyond everything. In Issue 65, Fenris proclaims that the Throne is actually a finite emanation of the actual Infinite from outside of Creation:

Given the symbolic relation between the Throne and the Creator, the same can be said to be about Yahweh and the Presence. It can work as a supplementary proof.

Some pedantic nonsense but I wish we can just write Yahweh | The Presence rather than Monads or whatever. Also, I think for the Archangels making a reference to Yahweh would be more better than just the whole space mind thing. Their power is said in reference to their Maker and like Yahweh they are also aspects.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Proposal 2 looks finely and simpler. Make his profile not cluttered and we'll have an additional key divine presence, right?

Yeah, I believe 0 and High 1-A+ for DeMatteis was obvious from the get-go. No one really had a problem with it.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Anyway, even in Lucifer we are brought to the idea that Yahweh is a "finite" extension of the "infinite" being beyond everything. In Issue 65, Fenris proclaims that the Throne is actually a finite emanation of the actual Infinite from outside of Creation:


Given the symbolic relation between the Throne and the Creator, the same can be said to be about Yahweh and the Presence. It can work as a supplementary proof.

Some pedantic nonsense but I wish we can just write Yahweh | The Presence rather than Monads or whatever. Also, I think for the Archangels making a reference to Yahweh would be more better than just the whole space mind thing. Their power is said in reference to their Maker and like Yahweh they are also aspects.

Yeah, that's a good scan that Ultima and I were talking about. The Throne and its parts extruded in Creation is an interesting topic. Scales Fenris very high by striking apart of it in the womb of Creation. Yahweh, clearly, is an aspect of something bigger and the final issue of Lucifer pretty much highlights it.

Your point on Yahweh being an aspect of the Presence refers to a full Godhead rather than a shaped version of the Presence was brought up by Kuuzo long ago:
Post in thread 'Question about the presence (DC comics)'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/question-about-the-presence-dc-comics.136054/post-4759368

 

[SKingITN]

Yeah, DC back on the top again

 

[Dreamer23421]

if my vote counts i agree with changes

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Bump.

 

[Weaver261]

Is this crt only include Lucifer vol 1? Not vol 2 and 3? I'm asking this cuz according to Mike Carey who is Vol 1 author, Lucifer became something like the void or escaped the presence plan.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Is this crt only include Lucifer vol 1? Not vol 2 and 3? I'm asking this cuz according to Mike Carey who is Vol 1 author, Lucifer became something like the void or escaped the presence plan.

I don't think Vol.3 meshes well with Vol.1 or Vol.2. Holly Black and Richard Kadrey's run may be a straight-up continuation but there's a lot left to be desired for what it gives for the Cosmology. It also doesn't make sense in some regard with Yahweh. While Vol.3 duality between Lucifer and the Presence isn't apparent in Vol.1, Michael apparently never died and also wasn't the Demiurge and so many more. It is the same Morningstar but its work is a personal touch by Watters as he even clarifies it.

Regardless, we can accept all three volumes, but I personally think Vol.1 takes precedence since it's best in terms of explaining things cosmologically.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I've made a section for the Totality of Creation. A very important piece for anyone willing to read it. If Ultima does I have a question about the worlds within worlds as a meta-qualitative hierarchy or not. If he does say yes then that's a High 1-A hierarchy for Vertigo.

 

[GrandSho]

Is this crt only include Lucifer vol 1? Not vol 2 and 3? I'm asking this cuz according to Mike Carey who is Vol 1 author, Lucifer became something like the void or escaped the presence plan.

Vol 3 is part of the Sandman Universe and might require its own separate version. Vol 2 is straight up incompatible with anything and is ignored by every succeeding story. Its just unnecessary trash.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

We’ll discuss Lucifer's continuity in another thread. Let's focus on the main topic at hand. We don't want eleven pages like the previous thread without even concluding.

 

[Protector_Hunk]

This crt is absolutely correct, and I will defend it constantly, but there is one more thing I will defend and that is that this crt is wrong;



you gave the example of buddha of yahweh, this example was given to describe the relationship between Lucifer and yahweh, according to this even if Lucifer passes to void he still remains under the yoke of yahweh, according to what you have given yahweh and void should be taken as the same thing, yahweh should be categorised as High 1-A+, why is void superior to yahweh anyway? There is no element of this.



And according to what jm dematteis says here, void should be taken as a part of the presence. The contexts you have already given support this, and this should be finalised by dematteis statement.

Let me leave the link.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

This crt is absolutely correct, and I will defend it constantly, but there is one more thing I will defend and that is that this crt is wrong;



you gave the example of buddha of yahweh, this example was given to describe the relationship between Lucifer and yahweh, according to this even if Lucifer passes to void he still remains under the yoke of yahweh, according to what you have given yahweh and void should be taken as the same thing, yahweh should be categorised as High 1-A+, why is void superior to yahweh anyway? There is no element of this.



And according to what jm dematteis says here, void should be taken as a part of the presence. The contexts you have already given support this, and this should be finalised by dematteis statement.

Let me leave the link.

Although that “Presence” DeMatteis is talking about refers to his depiction and not Vertigo. I did take inspiration from his take for Vertigo as well. God has been described in several stories as both being one with the Void, but also containing it. Hence why I wanted Yahweh's “true shape” to be one with the Void as opposed to God containing even the Void as his mind from the Overture scan.

To answer your question, he wouldn’t be “Yahweh” at that point, just the Void, or his true form.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Although that “Presence” DeMatteis is talking about refers to his depiction and not Vertigo. I did take inspiration from his take for Vertigo as well. God has been described in several stories as both being one with the Void, but also containing it. Hence why I wanted Yahweh's “true shape” to be one with the Void as opposed to God containing even the Void as his mind from the Overture scan.

To add to what I said. I also took DeMatteis’s notion pretty well that God contains; everything and nothing, existence and non-existence, form and formlessness, and yet intrinsically he is the “nothingness” from which everything emanated. In the same vein that he is the Void emanating Creation as an ocean of nothing, it also is noted that the same Ocean is simply his unconscious or an aspect. This is the logic for three keys, for Yahweh, he's bound to a certain belief system. As the Void or his true shape/nature is one with the Void. As God, he exists above everything and nothing while being the nothingness from which everything springs.

 

[Protector_Hunk]

Although that “Presence” DeMatteis is talking about refers to his depiction and not Vertigo. I did take inspiration from his take for Vertigo as well. God has been described in several stories as both being one with the Void, but also containing it. Hence why I wanted Yahweh's “true shape” to be one with the Void as opposed to God containing even the Void as his mind from the Overture scan.

To answer your question, he wouldn’t be “Yahweh” at that point, just the Void, or his true form.

Hmm, you mean like this:
true form yahweh (High 1-A+)=Void (High 1-A+)>yahweh (High 1-A²)

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Hmm, you mean like this:
true form yahweh (High 1-A+)=Void (High 1-A+)>yahweh (High 1-A²)

Yeah, that's essentially what I was thinking. However, if Ultima can confirm something then technically it can be more than two layers for Yahweh.

 

[Protector_Hunk]

Hmm, you mean like this:
true form yahweh (High 1-A+)=Void (High 1-A+)>yahweh (High 1-A²)

and it's worth noting:
option 2 is better because the true body of Yahweh≠god/monad

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

and it's worth noting:
option 2 is better because the true body of Yahweh≠god/monad

Yeah, possibly God for Vertigo should just have a solo section for it.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I also would like to note that shaping the Void is not impossible. For one the Demiurgic Power of God can literally push the absence of space. More importantly, I mentioned earlier in Dream Hunters that Morpehus can transmute formlessness into things that are not real which is why real could exist. Not to mention the Cat sister walking across the worlds to meet Morpheus had to cross over the emptiness/darkness and when he held some people in the voyage in his ship, he was sailing through nothing and nowhere. So dreams of having the capability of shaping Void is not at all impossible hence why the “true shape” of Yahweh was whatever he was as his infinite and eternal self, but he as “Yahweh” was shaped by forces external from him, “dreams.”

That's why Morpheus or Dream of the Endless power far exceeds his siblings at its purest state.

 

[Protector_Hunk]

Yeah, that's essentially what I was thinking. However, if Ultima can confirm something then technically it can be more than two layers for Yahweh.

So in this case, will Lucifer Morningstar baseline High 1-A or will it get more layers?

Because Lucifer is the shadow of god and according to god he is the best of his creation, also I saw in a comic book that he can damage the void and seal it for a short time, but I am not sure if it is true or an outlier.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

So in this case, will Lucifer Morningstar baseline High 1-A or will it get more layers?

Because Lucifer is the shadow of god and according to god he is the best of his creation, also I saw in a comic book that he can damage the void and seal it for a short time, but I am not sure if it is true or an outlier.

He's either baseline or one layer due to transcending Creation. If he is one layer then Yahweh would be two layers, if not only Yahweh would be above baseline.

Now, that Void isn't the timeless Void beyond Creation. In Sandman and Lucifer, there's an abyss/void between the spiritual worlds that exist beneath Heaven.

 

[Protector_Hunk]

Yeah, possibly God for Vertigo should just have a solo section for it.

Yeah, yahweh is important.

 

[Protector_Hunk]

He's either baseline or one layer due to transcending Creation. If he is one layer then Yahweh would be two layers, if not only Yahweh would be above baseline.

Now, that Void isn't the timeless Void beyond Creation. In Sandman and Lucifer, there's an abyss/void between the spiritual worlds that exist beneath Heaven.

Yes, actually lucifer should only get one layer because he has a great advantage over creation and the endless. Yahweh should get at least 2 layers in my opinion.

 

[Protector_Hunk]

He's either baseline or one layer due to transcending Creation. If he is one layer then Yahweh would be two layers, if not only Yahweh would be above baseline.

Now, that Void isn't the timeless Void beyond Creation. In Sandman and Lucifer, there's an abyss/void between the spiritual worlds that exist beneath Heaven.

off-topic:

I have some ideas about adding acausality type 4 back to Lucifer, as well as "greater" acausality type 4.
What's your idea?

 

[LazyMortician]

off-topic:

I have some ideas about adding acausality type 4 back to Lucifer, as well as "greater" acausality type 4.
What's your idea?

Your opinion is positive, but don't digress.

 

[Hellbeast]

Yo High 1-A is back

This looks good

 

[Bastolan27]

I agree; I've been on board since you made the one almost a year ago. But I'll keep an open mind for any counterarguments someone like Profectus (are they still active?) or a mod might have.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I agree; I've been on board since you made the one almost a year ago. But I'll keep an open mind for any counterarguments someone like Profectus (are they still active?) or a mod might have.

Dunno. I only care what Ultima or anyone near his understanding of the tiering has to say because I don't think certain mods know how the new system works.

 

[Lloydblitzed]

Dunno. I only care what Ultima or anyone near his understanding of the tiering has to say because I don't think certain mods know how the new system works.

Are these changes affecting the main cosmo or just Vertigo's and JJS ?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Are these changes affecting the main cosmo or just Vertigo's and JJS ?

The latter two.

 

[Firestorm808]

Considering the context and being literally called a Monad, Tier 0 for True? God seems convincing.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Considering the context and being literally called a Monad, Tier 0 for True? God seems convincing.

Yeah, in the same comic, they talk about the Unknowable and how the Keter is connected to a “Boundless Apogee” meaning there is some sort of God that's out there.

 

[AndrewBennet]

W

 

[Protector_Hunk]

W

My honest reaction

 

[Protector_Hunk]

Your opinion is positive, but don't digress.

Ok.

 

[Protector_Hunk]

Dunno. I only care what Ultima or anyone near his understanding of the tiering has to say because I don't think certain mods know how the new system works.

Hmm,i guess it is true.